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Hardware

AlphaGrip Starts Mass Production 139

Posted by CmdrTaco from the wierd-ui-ideas dept.
punchy_boy writes "The AlphaGrip AG-5 is finally starting production. News of pre-orders for this device was reported 6 months ago. This device is a keyboard and mouse in a 'gamepad' style form factor. It's been a while coming and the guy(s) at AlphaGrip deserve a pat on the back for sticking with it. I was so enthusiastic about this device I wrote some software to help me learn to use it properly (alt link)."
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AlphaGrip Starts Mass Production More

AlphaGrip Starts Mass Production

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  • Sometimes, I hold it with my hands crossed and upside down... I call it The Stranger

  • Control Freaks (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Doc Ruby ( 173196 ) on Sunday February 13, 2005 @10:56AM (#11659408) Homepage Journal
    I'm surprised we haven't seen a lot more novel controllers for our gizmos. We've got a lot of different people, coming from different experiences all over the world, playing many different games, musical instruments, working with a vast array of tools. And experimental hardware is very cheap and accessible to design and produce, even in limited quantities. So why are we stuck with basically QWERTY, mouse, D-pad, and a "handful" of variations and combos? Let a thousand controllers bloom! Each with a USB connection and an open-source driver :).
    • So why are we stuck with basically QWERTY, mouse, D-pad, and a "handful" of variations and combos? Because it is very difficult to break old habits. I is hard enough for the average computer user to switch from Windows to Mac, or Linux where the user interface across these platforms are very fimiliar, let alone have people get used to a new keyboard layout. I have been tempted to try a different keyboard, but my fingures have a mind of their own that will be very hard to retrain -- old habbits are hard t
    • QWERTY? Man I switched to Dvorak long ago.
    • The throuble is not building the controller, but building applications that work with it. Building a controller that might be better for typing might not be that difficult, but will it be equally good at gaming, at pressing shortcuts and similar things or will have people to fall back to keyboard use? Same with special game controllers, they work good for games designed for them, but are awefull for others and a pain to configure for the rest of the games. If you look at Nintendo for example they have desig
      • Lots of games use the same default controller to control a specific real-world activity that's nothing like the controller. How come nobody puts out, say, a different controller for a fighting game that has the same electrical signal outputs as the default, but is shaped more like a fighting abstraction?
    • And experimental hardware is very cheap and accessible to design and produce, even in limited quantities.

      If by "cheap" you mean "very expensive relative to other computer peripherals," then yes, it is cheap.
      If I had $150 to spend on a computer related toy, some new fangled wonky keyboard would be pretty damn far down the list.
      • "to design and produce"

        I'm talking about inventing a new controller. There's no reason why it should cost more (retail) than 2x that of the default, mass-market controller. Ie, $30. For something much more usable than just some new keyboard.

    • Re:Control Freaks (Score:3, Informative)

      by kinema ( 630983 )
      Each with a USB connection and an open-source driver :).
      One of the great things about USB is when properly implemented no driver is required beyond the standard HID driver included in your favorite OS.
      • Maybe "driver" isn't the word: maybe I'm talking about an HCI model component that messages with the app en/decoding the human actions into app terms. It would be very useful to have one single SW class that does that, shared across all apps that use the controller. Or is the HID sufficiently abstract to avoid that kind of requirement?
        • I'm not sure what you're getting at. What happens now is that keys are pressed or the joystick is moved, and this is converted into an updated joystick state and/or press and release events for the keys. Your application should then read these events and convert them into whatever that app wants to do with them.
          • The point is that "joystick" is a universal model for controller action. But my new, fringe "hand running" controller for FPS, footracing, other track events, isn't as established. So I'd provide both the controller, and the SW object with a defined API (and callbacks) for running. Other running controllers that come along could use it. Otherwise the controller will be stuck with a single game, like the old Nintendo "Top Gun" game and its one-shot PowerGlove controller.
            • If you just make a HID-class device then every control on it will be supported. If you make it require a special driver, then it will only be supported where your driver is provided. You can map any HID control to any function in DirectInput games with support for remapping of controls. It doesn't matter how many devices you have installed (although I'm not sure if keyboards and mice are supported as separate entities) and you can map controls on any of them. I would suspect that SDL provides similar functi
            • So basically what you want is the hardware layer to say "go forward" and another layer that says "UT, forward=w. q3, forward=w. doom3, forward=" etc?
              • Well, we've already got "go forward", etc. What about all the other motion primitives we do in our different walks of life, which have to get translated into "jump/kick/jump/punch" macros, or even just into pushing buttons on a flat package? I'm not into it, but what about people who want to translate their knitting needle skills into digital graphic design? Or any of the other physical skills we've got that translate nuance into style and function, but which are totally unlike our wide variety of riffs on
                • what about people who want to translate their knitting needle skills into digital graphic design?

                  They're heading for some disappointment.

                  • Why should they be? Some of that stuff is pretty wicked, if you can get past the old biddies and their quilts. The Internet and multimedia can change all that. Don't dis grandma - she might be behind that hoopy new desktop wallpaper sweeping the P2Ps.
                    • Sorry, I was envisaging some kind of knitting needle controller/input device for Photoshop or something...it didn't seem like it would work all that well :)
                    • Why not? When you're 75 years old, have 60 years of needle skillz, that mouse looks like another world. And stands between the productivity of Photoshop and a lifetime of design experience.

  • This (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Funk203 ( 843953 )
    This new thing seems only useful for the gamer who needs everything a company has to offer. This will be like the old stearing wheels that they used to sell for the racing games. It is a pitty to those people who think they really need it.

    What ever happened to the old fashion mouse and key board?

    • This will be like the old stearing wheels that they used to sell for the racing games.

      With the arcade steering wheels you could access the entire alphabet and enter your initials (if you got a high score). Who needs "Alpha Grip" when the plain arcade steering wheel allows full access to the keyboard. You can also code on long road trips.

    • Re:This (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Jeff DeMaagd ( 2015 )
      Steering wheels make sense for racing games. They are still sold. It is one of those things that I don't think make sense when crammed into another style computer input device. Yeah, you can do it with a keyboard (no space!) and mouse but it doesn't make sense. A mouse isn't as intuitive as a steering input. A keyboard is less so as pushing a button isn't an analog input, but steering direction is analog.

      But I guess it doesn't matter as realistic driving physics is outside of the gaming industry's gra
      • It isn't even just driving games. Everything I've played has these horrible dead zones that render any physics engine impossible to enjoy. A tweak to the left -- nothing happens. Tweak just a bit harder, and lurch!

        What the hell is wrong with game/controller devels that they don't get this? Is it just that they think everyone wants to play with a mouse? Or is the market in general too ham-handed to notice?

        And what's up with the pic of the cute chick with the pink AlphaGrip lying on her bed? Are we su
      • Actually, I preferred playing driving games with a joystick. I'm not sure why; I think maybe it has to do with being able to press the buttons more easily or something.
    • What ever happened to the old fashion mouse and key board?
      Um, nothing happened to it, everyone still uses it. I think that's what this guy wants to change.
    • I would love to try one out - and if it really is fairly easy to learn, I'd much rather use something like that than a standard laptop keyboard. If they keyboard isn't at just the right height, they're very uncomfortable to type on. On your lap it isn't very comfortable, on an airplane tray it isn't very comfortable...

      But then, I'm not 100% convinced without trying it myself that this device is a easy to learn and as comfortable as they say. But if it is, I definitely think it has more applications than

    • Re:This (Score:4, Funny)

      by iowannaski ( 766150 ) on Sunday February 13, 2005 @11:37AM (#11659690)
      My PS2 steering wheel took 2-3 seconds off my GT3 lap times.

      More importantly, it helped me suspend disbelief when I was pretending to drive a car on my TV.

      If a controller shaped keyboard could help me suspend disbelief while I try to make interesting points on /., I would be all over it.

  • It's an interesting gadget ... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by GNUALMAFUERTE ( 697061 ) <almafuerte AT gmail DOT com> on Sunday February 13, 2005 @11:02AM (#11659455)
    But i just can't get used to this kind of stuff ...

    I have thought about getting out of qwerty many times, but, even when there are some input/control devices that are better and faster than the classic ones, so many years using the classic designs lets us type as fast with them as one could do with newer toys. Also, it's pretty hard to get used to that kind of changes.

    I have tried DVORAK, and even a crazy experimental layout that i found out there ...

    k , u y p w l m f c
    o a e i d r n t h s
    q . ' ; z x v g b j

    Here is the link to experiment that created this layout: http://www.visi.com/~pmk/evolved.html

    In conclussion, this devices might be very comfortable, but an old hacker just won't get used to them.

    BTW: The site is slow, here is the google cache link: http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:qO6W-dkdz4kJ: www.alphagrip.com/+&hl=es

    • Re:It's an interesting gadget ... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by karniv0re ( 746499 ) on Sunday February 13, 2005 @12:08PM (#11659965) Journal
      Even if there was a tested an proven layout that would gaurantee quicker results than QWERTY, why would anyone want to give up QWERTY? It's taken me years to perfect touch typing with QWERTY. On a good day with pretty simple sentences, I can easily do 100 WPM. So even if I could theoretically acheive an excess of 100 WPM with, say Dvorak, the time it would take to learn it, as well as the non-portability of the skill (what are the odds of finding another Dvorak keyboard wherever you go), are not worth it.

      To compliment your quote: "An old hacker can't get used to them," you're right. We're going to stick with the tried and true. Maybe if you raise kids on a combination of Dvorak and QWERTY, they would better off, like teaching them two languages when they're young, but us old guys raised on QWERTY (yeah, 22 is old, shut up) are going to find it hard learning new tricks.
      • Exactly. Why spend time, energy, and frustration learning a layout that hardly anyone uses today? You can just see the interviewer asking, "Excuse me, sir, but what is Dvorak? You say you are fluent. Could you please describe what it is and how it will benefit us?" QWERTY is the standard. Get over it. Use the standard, forget the "boutique" layouts. Better to improve your speed on QWERTY (I've been typing for 10+ years and can do 140 WPM if I'm not tired) than learn something new from scratch. It's like lea
        • I got the best thing ever from learning Dvorak, the ability to type once again. I had such severe RSI (or whatever the hell they are calling it this month) that it was painful for me to type a singe sentence in QWERTY. Some physical therapy and a switch to Dvorak, and the pain went away, and my ability to type came back. This was 8 years ago and I haven't looked back since. It depends on the situation if I use one of my Kinesis natural dual keyboards which can be switched on the fly, or if I just do sof

      • Re:It's an interesting gadget ... (Score:4, Informative)

        by midav ( 63224 ) on Sunday February 13, 2005 @01:29PM (#11660628)
        So even if I could theoretically acheive an excess of 100 WPM with, say Dvorak, the time it would take to learn it, as well as the non-portability of the skill (what are the odds of finding another Dvorak keyboard wherever you go), are not worth it.

        Man, I wish you knew what you were talking about. I have switched to Dvorak about 3 years ago so I am talking from my own experience. First, it takes about two weeks to re-train your motor skills to a different layout even for a klutz like myself. Second, in both Windows and Linux (can not say much about Mac, but more than sure that in Mac OSes too) you can set up Dvorak keyboard layout through the Control Panel or its equivalent.

        While I admit that I am not typing faster than when I was using QWERTY (most probably, because my dexterity limits kick in long before those of difference between QWERTY and Dvorak,) I can safely say that hand/wrist strain is much less when you are using Dvorak, so your motivation is your closeness to the carpal syndrome.

      • It takes 2 days to learn Dvorak and be back at your full speed. When learning dvorak I would advise against moving your keycaps around to have it appear dvorak. The temptation for looking at your hands is too strong. It's best to just have a small window or whatever with a picture of the layout that you can look to if you're stuck. Force seems to work best when rewiring your brain.

        The painful part is switching between dvorak and qwerty. After practice I could do switch between them, but it would take a cou

      • Even if there was a tested an proven layout that would gaurantee quicker results than QWERTY, why would anyone want to give up QWERTY? It's taken me years to perfect touch typing with QWERTY. On a good day with pretty simple sentences, I can easily do 100 WPM. So even if I could theoretically acheive an excess of 100 WPM with, say Dvorak, the time it would take to learn it, as well as the non-portability of the skill (what are the odds of finding another Dvorak keyboard wherever you go), are not worth it.

  • Strange, but useful seeming (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 13, 2005 @11:04AM (#11659467)
    I wasn't really interested, untill I watched his little demo video. I really like the idea of being able to type while sitting in my lay-z-boy and not having to handle a wireless keyboard. I am sure it has a learning curve like anything else, but I am an avid console gamer and I think I could pick it up in a week or so, I might just order one right now.

  • College (Score:1, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    It would be fun to take notes using this during class; you'll be furiously pressing buttons on a gamepad while the professor, who can't see your screen, sees just that.

  • Doom 3 Demo (Score:3, Informative)

    by GrAfFiT ( 802657 ) on Sunday February 13, 2005 @11:06AM (#11659477) Homepage
    Did you watch the gaming demo [playstream.com] ? It seems that the "joystick" function of this controller is a on/off switch. That's ok for strafing (that's what we use with our keyboards) but it's totally unusable for proper orientation ! I already find that joysticks are far less precise than mouses when comparing movement acceleration range, this is even worse. Definitely not a gaming device.

  • too big (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    For my wearable computing, I need an input device that supports all the functionality of a keyboard and mouse/trackball, in a stylish, small form factor, that fits in a pocket (and is preferably usable while _in_ said pocket at least once one learns where the keys are) This ain't it. I can't walk down the street using that big lump, I'd look as absurd as I'd look with a VR helmet instead of a glasses-clip-on micro-HUD.

    • Absolutely. Also, this is a two handed device.

      I think the Twiddler is a more apt keyboard for wearable computing, but it would be better to have something less complex, and much cheaper.

      Also, what do those of us do with the HUD when we don't wear glasses? I figure, LEDs at the end of the mic, for notification -- I don't think we need screens for everything anymore.
    • About 10 years ago, I remember reading about something called a chord keys keyboard. It had 6 keys (one for each finger and two for the thumb) allowing 64 possible combinations, enough for upper and lower case letters, numbers and 2 punctuation marks. Adding a third thumb key, or a second little finger key, could allow the complete complement of punctuation. Such a device would be ideal for a wearable computer.

  • maketing pics (Score:1, Insightful)

    by SQLz ( 564901 )
    the marketing pics look like bad low budget n-gauge stuff, the ones that show attractive people in hot night clubs using the n-gauge. Here is a hot girl holding oour gadget!!
  • I can't even imagine how much my wrists and fingers would hurt after doing something like talking on aim or posting alot of comments!

    how much does it weigh?

    and wont you get that thumb disease or w/e that is from extended use of them?

  • A new keybard design? How.... exciting. (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Mike1024 ( 184871 ) on Sunday February 13, 2005 @11:11AM (#11659525)
    Seems to me that there have been a lot of attempts made to come up with better keyboard designs - Dvorak [mwbrooks.com]; that alphabetical keyboards [slashdot.org]; chordic keyboards [handykey.com]; split keyboards [safetype.com]; weird keyboards [datahand.com]; other weird keyboards [keybowl.com]; and so on.

    Call me when one of them has broad market acceptance.

    Michael
    • Well, all the things you linked to either require putting it on a desk, or using chords (or both). I think those are the two things this person is trying to get away from. Something you can use in any position, that still has 1:1 letter:button ratio. There are shift keys that you have to use for punctuation, etc, but the letters all get their own button.

    • Call me when one of them has broad market acceptance.

      Why is that a prerequisite? I'm using a Kinesis [kinesis-ergo.com] keyboard. It doesn't bother me that other people use normal keyboards, and it doesn't seem to bother anyone that I use a funky keyboard.

      Diversity is necessary for functional capitalism.

      • It's a prerequisite because I suspect most people don't just use one keyboard; and some of those are likely to be used by other people.

        It's much harder to switch between different layouts than it is to make do with one, even if it's not optimal. (I speak from experience.) And if you have to use a keyboard where your preferred layout isn't available, or where someone else needs it to be standard, then you're pretty much stuck with it.

        So unless a layout is overwhelmingly better than QWERTY, it's likely

  • ... I had problems with washing machine because it has too few buttons (actually only 2 buttons and one knob). I am used to my 104 keyboard. They won't see this "thingy" on my buying list.

  • wearable computing (Score:3, Interesting)

    by nounderscores ( 246517 ) on Sunday February 13, 2005 @11:15AM (#11659549)
    Is there anybody who (having used both) can tell us if the alphagrip can challenge the supremecy of the handykey twiddler [tekgear.com] chording keyboard as the device for typing while running?

    do you think US special forces are going to be punching in artillery corrections on a ruggedized alphagrip instead of the L3 wrist keyboard [tekgear.com] that I'm told they used in the 1990s?
    • do you think US special forces are going to be punching in artillery corrections on a ruggedized alphagrip instead of the L3 wrist keyboard that I'm told they used in the 1990s?

      No. The point of the L3 is that it's always there, on your arm, ready to use. You really think a loose two handed controller dangling by a wire is a suitable replacement for that?

  • Back in the 1970's we had Kung-Fu grip! [TM]

    Click here if you dare [geocities.com]

  • I see these being more useful as we move more and more towards media PCs etc.

    I've just built a media PC (VIA Nehemiah based, fanless, Fedora Core 2) for playing DVDs, AVIs and Ogg/MP3s. I have yet to write some kind of OSD-type control software for it to select a file I might want to play. It's a real pain having to walk up to the PC just to play the next episode of 24, for example.

    This is kind of a stealth keyboard which wouldn't look so much out of place on the coffee table. Particularly if it wer
  • How about a standard keyboard and mouse interface for gaming consoles? That's about the only thing that keeps Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo from having me as a customer. I play computer games, and I like the idea of spending a couple hundred bucks on a console instead of several times that on a computer, but I hate game controllers.
    • I take it you haven't tried using a keyboard and mouse while seated cross-legged on the floor or crammed onto a sofa with four other people, all using keyboards and mice, too.

  • One of the advantages of a chord keyboard is that it allows one-handed typing, which is essential for wearable computing: you shouldn't need to put down your "keyboard" to open a door or pick up a glass or whatever else you need to do in the "real world".
  • The "Why?" link on the site says that in the 1930s, we were able to type at 50WPM and now in 2004 the Alphagrip allows us to type at ... up to 50WPM.

  • tcsh and vi (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Michael.Forman ( 169981 ) * on Sunday February 13, 2005 @12:25PM (#11660117) Homepage Journal
    I'm quite open to novel mechanisms to data entry and have experimented with a few in the past. However, these keyboards are often optimized for typing English text while unwittingly complicating the entry of shell and vi commands, which are just as important to me.

    I'd like to see a keyboard designed around the key usage of a sysadmin who uses vi and tcsh (and other obscure programs such a emacs).

    Michael. [michael-forman.com]
    • I use a Twiddler2, & it's completely programmable (though the programming mode is a bit lame), so it can be optimized for anything you like. (I designed a set of chords for myself based on a frequency analysis of a large corpus of my own text.)

      <3

  • Cool & Perpetuating Myth (Score:3, Informative)

    by Sean Clifford ( 322444 ) on Sunday February 13, 2005 @01:11PM (#11660505) Journal
    Cool. I might give this a try. If it doesn't work out for me gaming or keyboard-wise it can either join a box of joysticks in my closet or (more likely, if I don't dig it) find its way to ebay.

    And since we just recently had a story [slashdot.org] about typing recently, I'll suggest these folks update their web site and scrape away the BS. To wit:

    >>And even those who do touch type do
    >>so with a letter layout that was
    >>specifically designed to slow down typing
    >>so the first mechanical typewriter keys wouldn't
    >>jam.

    *sigh* No, no it wasn't. [reason.com]

    >>The Dvorak lets you type faster

    *sigh* No [reason.com], no it doesn't. [slashdot.org]

  • They didn't even get rid of the !@#$% caps lock. It's a cording keyboard any you can't expect the user to hold the shift key for caps? How about they add a shift lock for every shift key that they have on there? Jef Raskin [jefraskin.com] has some good things to say about mode buttons like the caps lock.
    • There are some programs that utilize the Caps Lock key for something other than capital letter entry. For example, VICE [viceteam.org], maps Caps Lock to the Commodore 64's Run/Stop key. I'm sure there are plenty of other programs that utilize Caps Lock as well. If AlphaGrip ditched Caps Lock (or any other key on the standard keyboard) they'd just be asking for user complaints to start rolling in.
      • >There are some programs that utilize the Caps Lock key for >something other than capital letter entry. For example, VICE, >maps Caps Lock to the Commodore 64's Run/Stop key. And this is why computers will never get easier to use. A few programs have made some very bad UI decisions in the past and when someone tries to move forward %1 complain vocally. This causes the %99 suffer silently.
    • I'm working my way through this guy's prodigious website, and I have some issues with his statements.

      The claim that applications should cease to exist is nonsensical to me. That would be like saying rooms should cease to exist in houses.

      Then he goes on to say that all commands should be available all the time, and applicable to all objects. This is also bunk - most Photoshop commands aren't going to be applicable to an mp3 file for instance.

      I do agree with standardizing commands as much as possible, but
  • From what I understand, many repetitive stress injuries arise from the specific positioning of the fingers while typing. So, for example, some people's hands might hurt while typing on a regular keyboard, but not when using a game controller. This may alleviate some RSI cases by allowing a new fingering position.
  • My parents urged me to take typing as an elevctive in high school - best advicee they ever gave me as I can type close to 100 wpm on a reugular desktop keyboar d. While other gafdgets may be more efficient, I can;t see the marginale value of moving away from somethihng that works so well for me .
    • ROFL!

      Please, tell me this was a smart joke.
    • This has to be one of the most insightful posts I've seen in recent Slashdot submissions. Too bad many will miss it because this jerk couldn't type correctly.

      Okay... I'll go stand in the corner now. It was a joke....

  • Some games, such as Starcraft, rely on mouse "click and drag" input more than keyboard output. It looks as if this outfit spent comparatively less time on the mouse ergonomics versus the keyboard ergonomics.

    The best mouse input that I have used was on an old TI laptop, with a detachable small thumb trackball at a ~60% angle off the side. After getting used to this trackball, it was an incredibly accurate input as well. I have used a flat thumb trackball, as does the controller in the article, but this i
  • This is a novelty...not really revolutionary...it's a controller overloaded with buttons. To be truly a generation ahead will require something that cuts down on the number of buttons (one way to do this is have combinations of buttons) and uses tilting (like a set of gyroscope sensors) for a mouse. The big key is that it's going to have to cater to those who want to learn something new...not somebody who'd "just rather stick with what they're used to" (a.k.a keyboard and mouse).

  • Given me a keyboard for programming! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Geckoman ( 44653 ) on Sunday February 13, 2005 @05:03PM (#11662286)
    I don't care what it's shaped like, or how I have to sit to use it (provided it's comfortable and ergonomic), but I want a keyboard designed specifically for programming.

    Think about some of the characters most often needed for programming in common languages: ( ) { } & * $ % @

    They're all shift characters on qwerty keyboards, while characters I use relatively less frequently (like digits and most letters) are immediately available without any special combinations.

    I guess the obvious problem would be the need for new layouts when using C or Lisp or Python or whatever, but it's still nice to dream about a keyboard designed for programmers in 2005 instead of secretaries in 1873.


    • Use the Kinesis Contour (google it). Fully programmable and an extra key 'layer', to put (){}[] and != right under your home row, if you want them.

      To be honest, I like to maintain a separation between letters and punctuation -- but the Contour certainly makes programming much easier, specially when I have a dumb editor like Visual Studio that doesn't do any of the work itself.
    • I use a FingerWorks keyboard which has what you want. I'm a programmer and all the programming symbols are right under my right hand if I do a shift-like modifier gesture with my left hand. It's awesome. Plus, the symbol right under my right index finger is the dash, which is really useful when typing english.

      Here's a link [fingerworks.com].

      If their website doesn't convince you that this keyboard is sweet, maybe my testimony will. I love this keyboard; it's really god's gift to people who want a better input device. The ge

  • childhood memories (Score:3, Informative)

    by mapmaker ( 140036 ) on Sunday February 13, 2005 @05:04PM (#11662292)
    Dang that's a big ball o' plastic. It reminds me of the old Super Controller [gamegrid.de] from my ColecoVision childhood.
  • Nobody mentioned the frogpad?
    http://www.frogpad.com/ [frogpad.com]

    Its a small footprint (1/4th a keyboard with the same size keys) cording keyboard.

    I started using the "ifrog" (bluetooth version) a few months ago. The layout has some quirks I disagree with but there are reasons behind the design, it is very well thought out.

    The best part is they actually listen to you, the bluetooth version came out with some improvements based on user feedback. There's a pretty good forum http://frogpad.zeroforum.com/ [zeroforum.com]. They are

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