Virgin's New iPod Rival 401
iammaxus writes "CNET has the scoop on Virgin's new iPod killer. Favorite quote: 'Virgin said support for open standards such as WMA will let people select the music service of their choice.'" While this doesn't look like a bad player, it's the same price as an iPod mini (and incompatible with the most popular pay-per-download site), so calling it an iPod killer seems a bit premature.
design... (Score:4, Insightful)
Their portable speakers on the other hand look nifty.
Re:design... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:design... (Score:2, Interesting)
From what I can see of the picture, it seems like the clear LCD protector covers most of the front of the unit. I like that, too.
The blue-grey on silver-beige two tone scheme sets it apart from all the copycat white-only products out there.
By choosing not to use an identical interface to the iPods, Virgin will attract users
Re:design... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:design... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:design... (Score:5, Funny)
Quick and dirty? That thing is butt-ugly. (Score:3, Funny)
Re:design... (Score:3, Funny)
support for open standards such as WMA... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:support for open standards such as WMA... (Score:5, Funny)
"Hi! Use WMA! it gives you CHOICE over which online stores you use!"
yes, you can use the online stores that have 2% of the market, 3% of the market, and 7% of the market, but you do miss out on the choice of using the biggest & best...
Re:support for open standards such as WMA... (Score:5, Insightful)
But does the end user care, as long as the music they want is available for purchase? Doubtful. With all the major labels, and a lot of the minors on all the stores most people will use the store that works for their device and not worry about anything else. It's when you try to track down a hard to find piece of music the problems arise. If you're a Beatles fan you're right out of luck.
Of course there's other "choice" available with WMA, you can choose a device from another vendor, you're no longer locked into Apple as controller of the format, seller of the music and only "manufacturer" of the portable device that plays it.
Re:support for open standards such as WMA... (Score:5, Insightful)
It's probably not as clearly a factor as some would assume. The addition of iTunes for Windows boosted iPod sales, so a strong argument exists that the iTunes Music Store drives iPod market share more than the iPod drives iTMS market share. (I, personally, started using iTunes because I liked the interface, decided to buy a couple songs off the iTMS because it was integrated with iTunes, and only later decided to buy an iPod because it worked well with iTunes.)
But like I said, a market share number alone doesn't answer WHY. It's entirely possible that a growing number of non-iTMS-compatible devices will shift the market share breakdown. However, if most people buy digital audio players to rip and carry their own music, the music store is almost irrelevant. Most music is still sold on CD, and in that respect iTunes is compatible with almost every player out there.
tom
Re:support for open standards such as WMA... (Score:5, Insightful)
I appreciate that the parent poster was joking but it is worth pointing out that if the Apple store starts to jack up the prices, there is nowhere else you can legimately purchase the AAC files that they sell.
On the other hand, if a WMA shop does the same, you simply shift to another one.
Finally, everyone likes to blame Microsoft for the DRM in WMA. However they completely forget that Microsoft just provided the capability - it is up to the content providers on whether or not they use it.
Re:support for open standards such as WMA... (Score:3)
Other AAC stores... (Score:3, Informative)
Off the top of my head:
-Magnatune
-Real's Music store (yes, it sells AAC at 192kbps)
-Allofmp3.com (dubious legality aside)
AAC is by far a more open format than WMA. Anybody could setup a music store to sell AAC files. Now, doing it with DRM and supporting the iPod or iTunes is a different story, I g
Re:support for open standards such as WMA... (Score:2)
You can't share iTunes either.
RIAA failed Kindergarten.
Re:support for open standards such as WMA... (Score:5, Informative)
The Virgin site seems to be slashdotted at the moment, so I'll see what their marketing says about it, but I'm doubting they'll use open and WMA together...
Re:support for open standards such as WMA... (Score:2)
Sounds pretty decent... built in radio, dual headphone jacks...
and despite what's been said, while it may not be as simple or elegant as the iPod, I don't think it's much uglier.
I still prefer solid state, though... I guess if I travelled a lot, but since I can rotate songs anytime I want, at home or work, I like the (what I presume to be) longevity of solid state.
Whatever (Score:3, Insightful)
I am yet to see a better combination than iPod + iTunes for managing music. And the interface on the ipod is really nice and easy to use. I haven't bought one because they're a bit pricey and don't play ogg
Re:Whatever (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Whatever (Score:2, Troll)
I thought the iPod killer was the iPod mini?
Instant karma (Score:5, Insightful)
Score 4 and counting. Love those moderators.
Re:Whatever (Score:5, Insightful)
Thing is, OGG is at least as good as any other psycho-acoustic encoding system -- even if the file sizes are slightly larger (with 20G in your pocket, who cares anyhow?). But, the majority of portable users will use whatever choices their portable gives them -- so if the iPod added OGG support and had iTunes enabled to rip to OGG by default, people would use it. As long as OGG lacks DRM, though, there is no compelling reason to add its support.
Of course, if you really want your OGG files, but have an MP3-based portable, you could always transcode... the loss from a Quality-10 OGG to a 192kbps MP3 isn't terribly significant -- and those that could tell probably don't use anything less than FLAC anyhow -- but the idea of transcoding is lost on the average consumer.
Re:Whatever (Score:3, Insightful)
Until that time, it is going to be a niche format.
Further, the continued lack of a fully featured WMP plug-in just shows the vorbis people aren't too considered with wide market appeal.
Re:Whatever (Score:5, Funny)
Is this a good example of the old addage "Which came first, the chicken or the OGG?"
the 50th challenger for the throne (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:the 50th challenger for the throne (Score:5, Interesting)
Branson of all people should know that if you don't differentiate, you won't beat the incumbent
Not trolling, but (with one obvious exception - Virgin Galactic) when has Branson innovated? Virgin Atlantic was just another airline, Virgin Cola just another cola, etc. There's probably something obvious I've missed but when I think of Virgin/Branson, I *don't* think innovation, I think discount prices.
(Still, with Virgin Galactic I'm prepared to forgive him...)
Re:the 50th challenger for the throne (Score:5, Interesting)
It seems that the smart thing to do in business, is to come up with a innovative product, make enough money to get your head above the water and from that point just lock-step.
Re:the 50th challenger for the throne (Score:2)
He began with a telephone order music service that was (at the time) very innovative.
I knew that he started in mail-order music; I didn't realise it was considered innovative. I presume mail-order music hadn't really been done before? (Disclaimer: before my time ;)
Coolest tech gadget? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:the 50th challenger for the throne (Score:2, Insightful)
> beat the incumbent.
Branson sells stuff cheaper, and he's `beaten` the people he competes against, to the extent that he's successful, anyway.
The Japanese `beat` the UK in terms of cars and motorbikes without differentiating. They do new stuff now, but in the 70's - 90's they were doing a lot of copying of successful western designs.
> the incumbent has a flock of rabid followers
So did the Amiga. You make money by sel
Qua?? (Score:5, Insightful)
Since when is WMA an open standard?
I've already got my iPod and I hope it doesn't get killed by this device. Can I take Virgin to court if they kill my iPod?
Come on, this "iPod killer" thing needs to stop until the device is actually rated and used by someone, and is actually better than the iPod. Also, a key point: it needs to actually sell more.
Re:Qua?? (Score:2)
Alan
WMA? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:WMA? (Score:2, Insightful)
It's not. For users, anyway.
Virgin is getting confused. They're telling us the reasons they selected it, as opposed to the reasons we would select it. WMA is definitely not a selling point, not to anyone who knows shit about technology.
Re:WMA? (Score:2)
What they don't realize (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:What they don't realize (Score:2)
Re:What they don't realize (Score:5, Insightful)
If I listen to an audiobook on my computer for a bit, then sync with my ipod, the ipod resumes where I left off. When I get back to my computer and sync, the bookmark (on the computer) is right where it was when I was listening to it on the iPod. Perfect integration.
If I change the per-song EQ setting in iTunes, it is reflected on the iPod.
The song count, last-played timestamp, etc. are all synchronized between iTunes and the iPod.
Soundcheck works on both iTunes and the iPod.
(need I mention the iTMS?)
All of these things make the iTunes + iPod combination perfect. Everything that the iPod does, iTunes does. Everything iTunes does, the iPod does. It even syncs with iCal and Address Book, too.
That is why the iPod has not been killed by some "iRiver" (how did they get away with that name!?) or Sony ATRAC3 player. Nobody else has paid attention the software, all they pay attention to is bullet-points (0.3 megapixel camera! yay! that's just what my music player needed!) and names like "iPod killer".
Re:What they don't realize (Score:4, Insightful)
The key to lossy compression is to make the lossiness below the threshold of detection.
Its not like the iPod is compatible either... (Score:2, Insightful)
I still think the market will be fragmented until the adoption of an open standard - that is royalty free is adopted.
The margins are so thin on online music the only way people can make a profit is through proprietary hardware.
Standardize on the hardware and make some profit on the services folks!
Re:Its not like the iPod is compatible either... (Score:4, Insightful)
Virgin Trains vs Virgin Player (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Virgin Trains vs Virgin Player (Score:2, Informative)
I don't use rail all that much so do correct me if I'm wrong.
(I'm sure someone will anyway
Re:Virgin Trains vs Virgin Player (Score:2)
They recently shut down the local lines for 3 months while the 'upgraded' it. Then they put the fares up to pay for the 'upgrade'.
The trains are still as late as ever, and the 'upgrade' seemed to consist of a bunch of blokes shoveling gravel around - nothing else has changed.
The trains still cost half the price of the busses though so I still use them...
Re:Virgin Trains vs Virgin Player (Score:5, Insightful)
Hey, at least you've *got* serious rail. I recently spent a couple weeks in the UK (mostly in Yorkshire) and was impressed by the rail system, overall. We had one delay coming back from London (the Leeds train was late) but in general, we never had any problems.
And the whole "walk a few blocks into town to grab a train to go the next major city over" thing was fantastic. Just £6.50 for a 1-hour ride to/from York? Incredible. That'd be like driving to the nearest strip mall here in Northern Virgina and getting to downtown Baltimore for, what, $10 or so? I can't even do round-trip to DC for under $7 during rush hour, and the nearest Metro (subway) station is a 15 minute drive away.
So, yes, there are probably many problems, and there will *always* be problems. But having a large, well-used, cheap regional/national rail network is something we chaps on the left side of the pond will always envy. We're lucky if we can get regional rail around a single city, let alone networked between 'em. (and we'll never have a subway as pervasive as the London Underground, except in New York, and that's only because it was built so long ago).
Re:Virgin Trains vs Virgin Player (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Virgin Trains vs Virgin Player (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Virgin Trains vs Virgin Player (Score:4, Interesting)
You tell me with a straight face that you honestly believe that the privatisation of, e.g., BT, has not benefitted the British people, and I'll buy a copy of Socialist Worker off of you. When I've stopped laughing, which will take a while.
> Why did people buy these shares anyway?
To make money on the investment? Capitalism 101.
>
Oooohh, Nationalist and Socialist, nice
> After seven years of Blair, the nation's wealth is distributed less equitably than when he started,
I'm not sure the focus on wealth distribution is entirely healthy; you should look instead at the levels of poverty. If everyone has enough to eat, and a roof over their head, access to services and education - why should they worry that someone else has more?
> and fox hunting is still legal.
And let's hope it bloody well stays that way!
Coming on to the real failures of the Blair administration:
* Completely fucked up the reform of the house of lords, achieving the seemingly impossible by making it less democratic.
* Huge increases in tax, nicely hidden away where it's not too obvious to the feebleminded.
* No visible progress on improving the things that actually need fixing - NHS, transport, education. But time to protect cuddly foxes.
* Still no Freedom of Information Act. Funny how they dropped THAT manifesto promise once they got their grubby hands on power.
* Continuing erosion of civil liberties. Come on, Blunkett makes Howard (previously universally reviled as the most repressive home secretary in history) look like a bleeding heart liberal in comparison. Let's look at some examples:
* RIP act - the government, the council, and any tom dick and harry has the right to snoop your email. And of course this will not catch a single criminal.
* Phone taps don't need judicial oversight anymore
* Foreigners (like me, in theory) can be locked up indefinitely without trial, charge, or any disclosed evidence
* Biometric ID cards - lots of government invasion into your life, huge costs, zero actual benefit.
Let's not even get into the mess of the pension system (admittedly that was a mess beforehand, but he's not done anything to improve it), or the fundemental injustice of meanstesting.
Ipod Killer? (Score:2, Interesting)
Seems that these "killers" aren't real dangerous. It is the ipod that is killing everything else, truth be told.
Re:Ipod Killer? (Score:5, Insightful)
Open standard? (Score:2)
Is this now an ISO standard? Or is the person in the article just making stuff up?
Clunky gray FM Thing (Score:5, Funny)
And the same kind of storage, right?
And it doesn't have iTunes, right?
And it's got those 80's style recessed buttons for navigation, right? 80's style gray looks like, too.
So, the addition of an FM Tuner (i like) makes it a killer?
Has someone been drinking the Richard Branson [wikipedia.org] cappucino?
Don't get me wrong, I admire the guy, I'm glad there's true entrepenuers (read: morning wood all day long) guys like him... but come on... try and read between the lines a little! Don't be another mindless hype blowhard!
Re:Clunky gray FM Thing (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Clunky gray FM Thing (Score:3, Insightful)
I use my mp3 player to listen to FM radio, namely NPR, while running.
"...friends not included" (Score:2, Funny)
lacking (Score:5, Funny)
Share your music
Dual headphone jacks so you can listen with friends. Friends not included.
bummer... for once i thought i could finally get one bundled with a music player =(
So near and yet so far... (Score:2)
Open Standards? (Score:2, Insightful)
"Apples To Oranges" Comparison (Score:3, Informative)
They just don't get it. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:They just don't get it. (Score:2, Flamebait)
http://www.virgindigital.com/
I tried the ipod desktop client once in a store. It sucked (It actually crashed when I was using it). They really don't need to try very hard to beat that.
Re:They just don't get it. (Score:3, Insightful)
Ohh, it works perfectly and makes you smile. That's why there's no iPod killer yet
MSFT has a similar argument (Score:2)
UK market? (Score:2)
Presumably this product is primarily aimed at the UK market, which has always been Virgin's primary turf, and where the iPod isn't quite as popular as it is in the USA. Probably because iTMS hasn't been available here until recently.
Re:UK market? (Score:3, Informative)
The UK market is much smaller, and is dominated by cheap clones - in fact most people have 128MB MP3 players.
Re:UK market? (Score:2)
http://www.virgin.com/uk/atoz/default.asp?all=s
'Virgin Brides' - where do I sign up?
What's up with the geeky asian dude (Score:2, Funny)
But what's up with the geeky asian dude with the weird shoes and is his name really George ? He doesn't look like a George.
If your site is experiencing heavy traffic, why include an almost 21 KB graphic on the error page, which adds absolutely nothing to the informativeness of the error, adds to the traffic and looks just creepy.
Are they trying to scare potential visitors away ?
iPod killer? (Score:5, Funny)
Looks a bit crap to me (Score:2)
If fact I can't see a good reason to buy this at all, except it looks prettier than an ipod and is smaller.
Built in FM tuner, can you record? (Score:5, Interesting)
I attend various conferences. Some of them broadcast on a low power FM radio signal for people in the audience that are hard of hearing. Those people can have a private radio with headsets and adjust the volume to make it easier for them to hear. It also is a great way to record the program without the distracting noises from the audience.
I'd like to find an MP3 player, HD based or replacement memory sticks (SD, xD, whatever), that has the ability to record using a built in microphone and an FM tuner. A microphone jack would be a plus.
The closest I've found is a small 128/256 meg device, but the memory is not interchangeable, it's built in.
Anyone know of anything like that? Who makes it? And where it can be found?
Re:Built in FM tuner, can you record? (Score:2)
Supports up to 1 GIG of recording. For voice that is a heck of a lot. I bought one for similar purpose and so far have been very happy.
The advantage of the no HD models are that they are better for sports - running, biking etc. You can listen to your conferences again while on the treadmill.
Re:Built in FM tuner, can you record? (Score:2)
neuros (Score:3, Informative)
I've got an older one you can buy for $50 - contact me if you're interested (mgkimsal2@yahoo.com). It's just 128 meg - no HD. You can buy a HD separately if you like the player. I don't recall if there's a MIC line in or not, but there's a built-in MIC you can record from.
Re:Built in FM tuner, can you record? (Score:2)
The Neuros [neurosaudio.com] does all of that.
MP3, FLAC, OGG, expandable/updatable firmware to add more and/or update codecs later. Gapless support for OGG on the way very soon (it's in the beta firmware).
FM-tuner, built-in FM transmitter (for listening [with a quality hit] on your car stereo and the like), record from FM t
WMA? (Score:2)
This misunderstanding of WMA could be just marketing confusion, but I'd argue that many consumers would simply see this as A Good Thing. The more times something like "WMA" can be seen alongside or in the same sentence as "open standards", the greater the closed source foothold.
Letting me pick WMA is like letting me pick my master. I want freedom!
ANOTHER ipod killer? (Score:2, Insightful)
On the other hand, (Score:4, Insightful)
There are good reasons to discount microsoft's media products as useless, but "they don't have the market share" is *not* one of them!
CNET does some editing. . . (Score:5, Interesting)
Of course the iPod supports AAC and MP3 and "is capable of working with various digital music services" too. So I guess that's fair enough.
Re:CNET does some editing. . . (Score:2)
WMA as 'Open Standard'? Who's kidding who? (Score:2)
If they wanted to call OGG Vorbis an open standard I wouldn't raise a single reservation as it is clearly and obviously a fully-open and unencumbered standard.
But calling a closed proprietary system like Windows Media format an open standard is a double-plus ungood use of the word 'open'.
... on Virgin's new iPod killer (Score:5, Funny)
"it's their choice, not ours..." (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm glad someone has put it in such basic terms, rather than in small print.
hmm (Score:3, Insightful)
I'd go the mini, mostly because it doesn't look like a plastic remote control.
Now com'on I'm tired of hearing about 'Britney killers', and 'iPod killers'. All these products are merely trying to fill a market that is reaching it's peak momentum, a person will now just buy an iPod over other devices simply because it's 'cool', and their friend has one.
Not many people left in the game who just want a music player. (Hence why the iPod does so well, despite just being a music player.)
Give me a call when.... (Score:2)
I don't think this is an ipod killer. the regular 20gb ipod is more of an ipod mini killer than this, because its only $50 more.
Has to be BETTER or CHEAPER (Score:4, Insightful)
Unfair to Apple (Score:3, Funny)
(at least not without some outcry from the "virgin's rights" people)
compare the volume (Score:5, Interesting)
20 GB iPod: 2.4 x 4.1 x 0.57 = 5.61 cu. in.
(40 GB iPod: 2.4 x 4.1 x 0.69 = 6.79 cu. in.)
iPod mini: 3.6 x 2.0 x 0.5 = 3.60 cu. in.
Virgin: 3.78 x 2.23 x 0.62 = 5.23 cu. in.
The Real Killer... (Score:4, Insightful)
1.) Looks really good, like the iPod
2.) Plays _all_ of the major formats including OGG
3.) Works with whatever music store you like
4.) Is competitively priced and reliable
Technically this is all possible. Having a good looking player that plays all of the major music formats is well within reach. The other stuff is where it gets tricky primarily due to copyright issues. If encumbering DRM would just go away the market would explode. It is the need for DRM that leads to the current incompatibilities. Yeah, if there were a single standard it would be better (maybe) but that's not going to happen because there is basic disagreement on just what the end user should be able to do with music and how much and how often they should pay. Right now, the iPod plus iTunes offer what IMHO is the most end user friendly set of circumstances. Yeah, the iPod doesn't play OGG, but nothing keeps me from converting OGG to mp3 and loading it that way. I can even get unprotected WMA on my pod. Unfortunately a lot of the Japanese music I listen to is on copy protected CDs which are a bear to deal with, but after some work (no cracking involved) I can get these on my pod too. No extra fees or subscriptions! I can pretty much deal with music the way I did in the days of making compilation cassettes for my car or walkman. Heck, this is even easier than that was! Right or wrong, I feel more like Apple wants to help me DO things, rather than STOP me from doing things.
Bottom line, no iPod killer is likely to appear anytime soon because the fundamental problems are nowhere near resolution. Microsoft could do a lot to unify things on the Windows side, but ultimately competition among record companies isn't going to allow the kind of unification that could pose a real challenge for Apple's iPod+iTunes dominance. And of course, Apple isn't likely to be standing still either.
Re:The Real Killer... (Score:3, Insightful)
An iPod killer has to be cooler than the iPod. That's it.
Granted UI and integration are part of the mix, but to be honest, I don't think the public gives a hoot about OGG. OGG doesn't provide joe average with any perceived benefits, so mp3/aac are considered 'good enough'. On the other hand, if there was a new format that was 10x more compression with better audio, that would be interesting.
The working with all stores thing is a bit of a red herr
Uhhh (Score:3, Funny)
How can I feel "Hip" with that thing?
Missing features (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Buy your music from any download service (Score:2)
..or could it be that iTunes somehow makes sure you have a iPod before it lets you use it? I honestly don't know myself, but it would explain why this wont work with them. If they think in the same way a lot of IM-companies thinks, anything coming from another client (or in this case, piece of hardware) is evil and will cut into your profit - and must logicaly be stopped.
One thing I do know however is that the iPod itself is overhyped. I had the opertunity to play with one a while back, and (at least to m
Re:Buy your music from any download service (Score:3, Insightful)
To make a player that plays fairplay DRM without an apple license would probably violate DCMA (there's a test case I'd like to see). Even Real didn't do that, they just came up with a way to encode their stuff to fairplay so an iPod would play it.
That said -- Apple made a play
Re:Buy your music from any download service (Score:2)
Re:Buy your music from any download service (Score:4, Interesting)
If Apple refused to license FairPlay to Virgin, then Virgin is correct in saying that their lack of iTunes support is Apple's choice."Digital Music" is not all "MP3". iTunes are AAC, not MP3 (yes, I know, they both use MPEG-style encoding). Pedantic, perhaps, but important. Encoded music comes in lots of formats, not just WMA and MP3.
Re:Buy your music from any download service (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Apple wants itunes all to itself (Score:3, Informative)
Real reverse engineered Fairplay DRM so they could encode Real content to play on the iPod.
Real could've have gone non-DRM MP3 and that content would play on a iPod just fine. But they wanted DRM protected stuff on the iPod so it had to be encoded in Fairplay, the only DRM format iPod supports.
Re:Vrigin's been /.ed (Score:3, Funny)
Re:"Incompatible" with what ? (Score:4, Informative)