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Education Hardware Science

Microbatteries Built on a Bed of Nails 75

Posted by CowboyNeal from the all-charged-up dept.
nadamsieee writes "The good folks at IEEE Spectrum have a news brief about a newly invented method of creating microbatteries using an electrode that looks like a bed of nails. The method was created by a team led by Prof. Marc Madou of UC Irvine. IEEE Spectrum notes that 'according to the researchers, a battery using such an electrode can generate 78 percent more power than a stacked-plate microbattery of the same volume.'"
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Microbatteries Built on a Bed of Nails More

Microbatteries Built on a Bed of Nails

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  • I don't believe them... (Score:5, Funny)

    by drinkypoo ( 153816 ) <drink@hyperlogos.org> on Saturday October 09, 2004 @11:37AM (#10479665) Homepage Journal
    ...they're a bunch of fakirs.
  • 5 years till this is on the market.
    • 5 years till this is on the market
      15 years till it the costs come down, but by then, there's gonna be some other new fangled technology.

  • This is the same tech in all modern batteries. (Score:3, Informative)

    by rebeka thomas ( 673264 ) on Saturday October 09, 2004 @11:45AM (#10479705)
    This is the same tech in all modern batteries. Increase surface area and you get more reaction. No different to heatsinks, it's been known for years.

    Nothing to see here, Move along.

    • Re:This is the same tech in all modern batteries. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by sindas ( 803768 ) on Saturday October 09, 2004 @11:49AM (#10479722)
      Nothing to see here, Move along.
      Nothing to see here? We understand the science behind the idea, but until now no one has made this tech. (at least not in this way)... Whats with the current trend of /.ers that are spewing randomly that every piece of news here sucks? maybe its just the people here that are so critical of the news that suck? why dont you submit some better news if this isnt good enough?

      • goes with the turf (Score:4, Insightful)

        by zogger ( 617870 ) on Saturday October 09, 2004 @12:48PM (#10480020) Homepage Journal
        I think it's the nature of high IQ nerdom. You tend to think the "other guy" is an idiot, because a lot of times they are. Makes you pretty egocentric I guess, even when the other guy is SMARTER than you or has pulled off something impressive.. Hecktapay when you got a large room fulla them...in meat space or cyberspace... ....had a sales job once, selling a new and improved technical product. Doesn't matter what it was now, what I noticed though was when I was selling to joe blow, it was normal,questions answers, sold some, sometimes didn't, but it was a normal deal. When I tried to sell to engineers they argued constantly about it, said they could do it cheaper/better/faster and yada yada yada. It was an automatic reaction they had, just the way their minds worked. Didn't matter to them, it is hard coded DNA or something. I would ask them why they didn't do it then (zero of them had ever made anything like it), and why did they bother making an appointment, especially when they knew the ballpark figures up front. they would just sputter then, pretty funny. Serious PITA sometimes. Ya, it was bad salesmanship on my part, didn't care, I made enough sales and was raking in the dough at the time. It was argumentive debate sport for me with them guys, nerd to nerd...

        No, I don't like sales.. don't do it anymore....I did sell a few units to engineers, but I studiously avoided them after the first few times.
      • "Whats with the current trend of /.ers that are spewing randomly that every piece of news here sucks?"

        I imagine it's to raise their ambient IQ.

        A couple of years ago, the big fad was to shout "This isn't news!" every time a story went by. "A cure for cancer has been discovered!" "This is NOT news!! Diseases are cured all the time!" I think it started when Slashdot really did post a 'not news!' item, somebody got modded up for pointing it out, and blammo. Instant karma goldmine.

        One day I saw an opport
    • True, but this is an example of using the latest (of what may hopefully become mainstream) manufacturing technology to take the concept of 'maximizing the surface area' to the next level, increasing the storage density and reaction area proportionally.

      However, I suspect that traditional issues such as buildup of non-reactive material will affect this tech just as badly or worse than the existing technology. Time will tell.

    • Not quite.

      Increasing the surface area is always a pain. It was increased fairly recently by a guy here in colorado by using a rolled carbon as opposed to cylinders. But it is patented.

      But there approach will allow a battery that can offer various voltages or current. IOW, same battery, but hook up to different poles and you get different configuration. Very handy.

    • It's "Pillars of Power" NOT a bed of nails! RTFA! man RTFA!
    • This is the same tech in all modern batteries. Increase surface area and you get more reaction. No different to heatsinks, it's been known for years.

      But surface-area boosts in traditional batteries have been mainly a matter of putting micropores in plates, not changing from a plate geometry to posts.

      It might be worthwhile to try the post approach in a "conventional" battery at macroscopic sizes. It might produce a significant improvement (though not as extreme as when the posts are nanoscopic).
    • This is the same tech in all modern batteries. Increase surface area and you get more reaction. No different to heatsinks, it's been known for years.

      Two years ago, I came up with this exact idea of increasing battery energy density. Everyone I talked to told me that it was old hat, and that it was already being done.

      *shrug*

      Yet another bright idea down the toilet. One of these days I'll have one that hasn't been done before :)

  • High output, but is it rechargeable? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by goneutt ( 694223 ) on Saturday October 09, 2004 @11:48AM (#10479716) Journal
    This looks like a high tech version of the ancient carbon cell battery. I would hope that this design can be made rechargeable, I wouldn't want to replace a battery made with a super expensive nanotube component, EVER. And no, I'm not thinking MP3 player, I'm thinking sensors that you don't want to have to visit regulary.
    • He works mostly in BioMEMS, so he's thinking about the same kinds of things that you are.

      He cofounded a company to market implantable smart drug delivery devices - think Norplant, but with sensors and a microcontroller for difficult to mange diabetes, seizure management, stuff like that. It likely wouldn't need to be rechargeable given that it has a fixed drug reservoir.

  • That's nifty... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by fejes ( 799784 )
    But does it scale?

    At what point does this all fail? This might be great if you want to power an ant sized object, but what are the odds we'll see it in anything greater than the size of a pacemaker.

    And, of course, if the process is similar to a chip, can we expect to buy it in units of 1000 for $300 each?
    • I think what makes it interesting is the controllability. There is a much better chance this could scale than something which is just a new chemistry or a more convoluted surface. Once you have the ability to control the physical battery to a microscopic degree, then you are free to scale and address problems like overheating with logic, in theory. The chemistry of this particular prototype may turn out to be less interesting with advances in nanotech, like http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=commun [evworld.com]
    • But does it scale?

      Don't tell me you want a fucking beowulf cluster of these now.

  • 360 KA / M^3 - WOW! (Score:2, Insightful)

    by 6800 ( 643075 )
    That sounds impressive, how impressive is it? Can it be made rechargable? Can it be stacked to be a full cubic meter's worth? How many Kilo amphours would such a battery yield? I guess it is too early to tell these things.
    • My guess is that this increases the available current draw, and if used on rechargeables, increases charge current. Unless you add more battery "juices", I don't think this will necessarily increase the Ah ratings.
    • Can it be made rechargable? I'd think the basic concept of increasing the surface area should work with rechargable formulations as well. The challenge is in the engineering to turn that concept into a reality. Some materials are easier to manipulate that others.
    • "whose energy storage they estimate will be roughly 360 kiloamperes per cubic meter"

      Yet another example of bad science reporting.

      360 kA/m^3 is not a measure of energy storage.

      It's a measure of the peak current capacity.

      The energy storage must be specified in J/m^3 or W-s/m^3.

      It's an important disintinction. Peak current is fairly meaningless without knowing the associated voltage and time.

  • I think the voltage-switching aspect of these batteries is the really important part. If the manufacturing process were streamlined, this would have some interesting applications.

  • Interesting, but (Score:5, Interesting)

    by GigsVT ( 208848 ) on Saturday October 09, 2004 @11:59AM (#10479771) Journal
    I'd sell a body part to be able to get a "battery" that was somwhere between a capacitor and battery in features. Supercapacitors are getting closer, but even 10F is no where near a small battery in capacity.

    I'm working on a hybrid vehicle, and finding a way to make good use of the regenerative braking power is a real challenge. Lead acids can only take a charge so fast, usually less than 0.1 of the power available during braking, unless you completely oversize the battery banks.

    I want something with a very low charge impedance that can basically lock the shaft of the motor/generator, if need be.. completely eliminating friction brakes.

    This would have bigger applications... Imagine charging your laptop in 10 minutes, then running for 6 hours.

    So these advances in power density and discharge impedance are good, but tangential to what I think will be the real killer app, a super low charging impedance battery.
    • Have you looked at the idea of fuel cells? Email me and we can chat about other things relevant to this thread.
    • Couldn't you push the regenerative braking power into a supercap, and then push the supercap's power into the lead acid battery?
      • Couldn't you push the regenerative braking power into a supercap, and then push the supercap's power into the lead acid battery?

        A 1200kg car with traditional brakes traveling 26.8 m/s (60mph) converts 431 kilojoules to heat as it stops. A motor could convert perhaps 90% of that to electrical energy instead.

        For a capacitor system that might top out at 200V after such a charge (to charge, say, a 144V battery system), you'd need about 20 farads of capacity. (E=C*V*V/2)

        Keep in mind that cars may be heavie

        • About a month ago I found a company that had supercaps with > 2000 farads. only 2.5V ratings, but if my quick math is right you would need 30 or so of them.

          I don't have time to find it again. Sorry, no links this time.

          • Assuming those exist, I wonder if once you wired them all in series (2.5V isn't exactly practical :) what the internal resistance would be.

            I've got a 4.7F 2.5V supercap sitting on the workbench. It is 34mm long and 12mm in diameter, or 3.8 cm^3. Assuming a supercap could scale linearly with size, a 2000F supercap made the same way would be about 1600 cm^3, and 30 of them would be about 48 000 cm^3, or about the same size as one of my filing cabinet drawers.

            • The catch:

              Capacitors in series are not like batteries in series. Even neglecting resistance, capacitors in series are 1/Ctotal = 1/C1 + 1/C2, etc.

              So two 50 farad caps in series are 25 farad. Three 50 farad caps in series are 16.6F.

              So, when you talk about a 200F supercap that is only rated for 2.5 volts.... putting 6 of those in series to get you enough to handle a 12 volt system... That only nets you 33.3Farad.

              And that ignoring internal resistance, which adds linearly.
    • I'm working on a hybrid vehicle, and finding a way to make good use of the regenerative braking power is a real challenge.

      I'd like to take that energy and broadcast it as microwaves. Straight forward and at cell phone frequency of course. Over time, this would lead to less braking and save everyone fuel.

      • Hell yeah!
        That would take care of the source of a lot of traffic jams.
        The only problem is that all those fools will be re-dialing leading to more accidents.

        I know there is not a causal link between cell phone dialing and accidents, but tell that to the person that ran a red light and nearly killed my wife and kid....
        -nB
    • I want something with a very low charge impedance that can basically lock the shaft of the motor/generator, if need be.. completely eliminating friction brakes.

      What about using a frictionless flywheel? You can spin it up using the electricity acquired during braking, or use some kind of clutch to transfer power from the wheels to it. After it has been spun up, use it as an electric generator until you need to brake again.

      • Re:Interesting, but (Score:1, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward
        afaik this is used on some underground trains
        but aparently this flywheels are too dangerous.
        they need to be either massive or friggin big
      • I actually did look into this. No one seems to be mass producing a coffee can sized flywheel. All the commercial energy storage flywheels I found seem to be aimed at putting them underground to use as a sort of UPS.

        I have limited manufacturing facilities available to me, as this is a hobby project. I know I definitely couldn't make a composite resin maglev flywheel that wouldn't explode. :)
    • Electronics is all about compramise. You are trying to do something in one step that really requires a stage (or two) in between.

      Capture the energy in a large capacitor and then use some circuitry to charge the battery from the stored charge in the capacitor.

      It will cost you perhaps 10% in loss but that is acceptable compared to the alternitives.

      You may also want to think about moving away from lead-acid batteries, some of the newer elecric and hybrids are using large banks of Nickle Metal Hydryd batter
    • I'm working on a hybrid vehicle, and finding a way to make good use of the regenerative braking power is a real challenge. Lead acids can only take a charge so fast, usually less than 0.1 of the power available during braking, unless you completely oversize the battery banks.

      I want something with a very low charge impedance that can basically lock the shaft of the motor/generator, if need be.. completely eliminating friction brakes.

      You can probably do that with a superconducting inductor reinforced with
    • I'm working on a hybrid vehicle, and finding a way to make good use of the regenerative braking power is a real challenge.

      Totally not my field, but what popped in my head was how about running an air compressor? When you break, the compressor is kicked in, putting a load on the wheels, and compressing air into a tank.
      The compressed air could then drive a generator at whatever pace neccessary to charge the batteries in a nice pace.

      Too much mechanics I guess. Oh well...
  • These batteries may be well and truly needed in a couple of years for mobile devices. Moore's law, ubiquitous connectivity and the development of data services and content will make phones a platform that need more power from the same amount of weight.

  • Renewable naysayer energy (Score:5, Funny)

    by Jeremi ( 14640 ) on Saturday October 09, 2004 @12:10PM (#10479824) Homepage
    If only we had a way to harness the energy generated by the spontaneous knee-jerk naysaying of Slashdot posters, our energy needs would be met forever.

  • No free lunch (Score:3, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 09, 2004 @12:20PM (#10479867)
    You get amp-hours based on the quantity of reactants that you have. What these guys have created is a way to discharge a small battery more quickly.

    OK so sometimes you do need a battery with a low internal resistance. Trying to use this for something like a hearing aid wouldn't help very much. If you could make a smaller battery, then it wouldn't last as long.

  • Thats not a bed of nails... (Score:1, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    ...this [circusnews.com] is how you make a bed of nails!

  • This increases the power output... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Jason1729 ( 561790 ) on Saturday October 09, 2004 @01:27PM (#10480189)
    but it has no effect on the total energy output, so it lets you build devices that drain batteries even faster. Just what we need.

    An NiMH cell can already handle a load of 2C quite easily. Do we really need more? If that's not enough power, it's time to move to a larger cell. What good is a PDA/Cellphone/Camera that only lasts for 15 minutes on a charge even if it is 10% smaller than the old model?

    Jason
    ProfQuotes [profquotes.com]
    • Well, defribulators are mentioned as an application.

      There are many applications for high-discharge devices - particularly in medicine - which is the general area in which he works - not cellphones.
      • Then you use this fancy new device called a capacitor . They can act like batteries that can be changed in miliseconds and discharged in microseconds. They're quite commonly used that way in camera flashes.

        Of course, they can also be discharged slower over hours.
    • As someone above already mentioned a perfect application for a higher power-density battery is hybrid/electric cars. The guys over at acpropulsion.com, while having recently switched to Lithium Ion batteries (some ridiculous number of cells) had a very swift car (oversized go-kart of a kit car) put together with, if I recall correctly, 22 lead acid batteries. The car could go 100 miles on the energy in those batteries but the reason they had 22 was not for the range, it was for the power output.

      Their motor

  • Sleigh of hand and twist of fate... (Score:1, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    ...in a microbattery she makes me wait?

    Err... no.
  • http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/WEBONLY/resource/oct0 4/1004ncarbf1.jpg [ieee.org]

    You wouldn't bend the pins in the upper left corner, like they have. Note the pin located at (7,-1). That's going to be a B#*%^ to straighten without snapping it off.

    Something tells me that's a spent battery though, since there's minor damage to many of the pins.

  • I want my laptop to be lighter, and the batter is one of its heaviest parts.

    In a large format modern laptop, there's a fair amount of volume that could be stuffed with these micro-batteries.

    The article says these batteries pump out 78% more "power" per volume, but what about power per mass ratio? In the laptop application, this matters most.

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