How Much Are You Paying For Electronics Labels?

An anonymous reader writes "Interesting article on CNET about different consumer electronics brands selling identical OEM products, often at wildly different price points. The author also examines the phenomenon of manufacturers releasing "consumer" and "industrial" versions of the same product -- with the cheaper version aimed at businesses. Probably old news for the slashdot crowd, but it's worth reading to see how much Middle America is overpaying. Caveat emptor, indeed." And there are also product lines where the expensive version is aimed at business buyers, because a higher price implies greater credibility.

Old News Indeed

[DynaSoar]

Old news indeed. I knew this to be the case in TVs when I worked for my father at his TV store in the 60s. It was especially prevalent in home stereo equipment in the 70s and 80s.

The major manufacturers create their own "competition" to flood the market with at the most popular price ranges, often selling under 4 or 5 labels simultaneously, and not all of them at the same price level, despite identical guts. Three major Japanese manufacturers accounted for 14 brands at a "super-store" I visited on a research jaunt, back when I sold the stuff.

Want an eye opener? Go find out who obtained the patents on VHS and Beta VCR systems. Not the current patent/license owners; the creator sold the license for one of them to a competitor, so that no matter which format "won" they'd still be making money.

Re:Old News Indeed

[Otter]

Want an eye opener?

Yes, I do. This horrific color scheme has caused me to go blind -- I hadn't realized beige could be made so painful.

Re:Old News Indeed

[Anonymous Coward]

I dunno, it's kind of an achievement, "Radioactive Beige". Until now, no color scheme had ever acheived simultaneous DayGlo and Drab. By rights, it just shouldn't be possible. Yet there it is, making my eyes scream and my ears bleed. BEIGE BEIGE BEIGE BEIGE BEIGE.

THE BEIGE OF A DAMNED ELDER GOD YEARNING TO ENFOLD YOU IN THE HORRIBLE CLUTCHES OF ITS CLOYINGLY INSIPID YET AGGRESSIVELY MALEVOLENT TINT.

Not the merely mortal 70s beige of the hospital waiting room, nor the beige of thick yet laddered tights concealing the varicose veins of the embittered nurse in attendance in the waiting room, nor yet the beige of the liver spots on the back of the crabbed hands of the coughing patient in the waiting room. IT IS THE BEIGE OF THE END TIMES. THE BEIGE THAT CONSUMES ALL.

All worldly beige is a mere shadow of the HORROR THAT IS SLASHDOT IT SECTION RADIOACTIVE BEIGE.

Re:Old News Indeed

[Anonymous Coward]

Dear Sir or Madam:

I am posting to inform you that we, the illegal pirates of the internet, have stolen your copyrighted ranting and will proceed to spread it across slashdot in a reign of terror [slashdot.org]. Why?

1. That rant was so good I would've wet myself in laughter, except the thought of making my pants the same color as THE BEIGE OF THE END TIMES was too frightening.

2. We, the illegal pirates of the internet, must violate every copyright no matter what.

3. ???

4. PROFIT!

5. THE DAMNED ELDER GOD COMPELS US TO S

Re:Old News Indeed

[Sergeant Beavis]

They need Queer Eye for the Slashdot Guy.

Re:Old News Indeed

[Sir_Real]

Is there a way, using style sheets, to make this not ... hurt? This color scheme is a far more serious danger to my vision than chronic self abuse.

Re:Old News Indeed

[MbM]

Adding this to the userContent.css in mozilla or firefox should clean up most of it:

td[bgcolor="#A69D78"] { background-color: #006666; }
td[bgcolor="#EBEBE1"] { background-color: #CCCCCC; }

td[background="//images.slashdot.org/slashcor ner-it.gif"],
td[background="//images.slashdot.or g/slashbar-it.gif"] {
background-image: url(//images.slashdot.org/slashbar.gif);
}

bod y[link="#A69D78"] a:link,
font[color="#A69D78"] { color: #006666; }

(note, due to slashdot lameness you may need to remove extra spaces)

Re:Old News Indeed

[realdpk]

The lack of contrast in the design elements is rather difficult on the eyes. On the default scheme, my eyes can easily track through each individual comment. Now they have to hunt more to find the comments and subjects.

Re:Old News Indeed

[discogravy]

they have one, but i heard it's a cat, so it sees colors differntly. Apparently this blinding scheme is very comforting if you're a feline.

The bitch of it is, if you set your colorschemes to a non-white background, you'll see the graphics's rounded edges as white.

I miss lynx.

Re:Old News Indeed

[kfg]

Ever notice that competing businesses often locate next to each other? This is not so much to take business away from the other, but it's been found that the appearance of competition drives sales, so they both get more business than if they located seperately. The ultimate example of this is the shopping mall.

Ever notice "clumps" of shoe stores at the mall? They're often owned by the same company to imply competition between them when there isn't any really.

The implication of competition drives sales so they set up the implication artificially.

Proctor & Gamble are masters of working this, many cleaning products advertised as being better than the other are the same except for their packaging and a difference in the food coloring added, and the same as a bargain brand for a fraction the cost.

And the same as the "house" brand at a fraction of that cost.

KFG

Re:Old News Indeed

[Tony-A]

There's a reason for the clumping.
To oversimplify, imagine a line with one store on it.
Optimum placement of a second store has to be on one side of the first store.
People on the other side will all go to the first store because the distance is shorter.
People on your outside will all go to you because the distance is shorter.
People in the middle with to to whichever is closer.
You lose fewer people in the middle if there is less middle.
So the first two stores wind up next to each other.
A third store faces the

Re:Old News Indeed

[Kurt Russell]

As someone who has worked in a Cadillac-Buick dealership I can tell you "MOST" gm products are the same.
Look in any professional service manual, you won't find Buick, Olds etc; you'll find "j body" "b body" "F body" and so on.
The difference is in trim packages.

Re:Old News Indeed

[jht]

The other reason Buick had to wait for their GMT360 is that the Rainier was previously selling as the Olds Bravada until Olds got the knife this year (by the way, the original GMT360 triplets came out as '02 vehicles in the winter of '01).

(I had one of them for about two years before swapping it for a minivan)

As far as I can tell, the only change they made between the Bravada and Rainier was the new front grille. It looks otherwise identical, and unlike the Chevy/GMC version (but like the Bravada), isn't

Re:Old News Indeed

[mercuryresearch]

They also do this with multiple product numbers/SKUs within the same brand.

Those ads in the sunday paper where they promise to give you the product free/10% cash back/whatever if you find the same product at a competitor for less? They can do this because the manufacturers make essentially identical products but sell them with different model numbers to competing electronics stores -- so the models are unique to the chain carrying them. Usually this is called price protection and it's something the supplier will often guarantee in a specific market.

This stuff doesn't bother me nearly as much as companies that cash in on their brand name with inferior products -- I've had a couple major-label DVD players that barf during playback about 50% of my DVD collection, yet no-name imports (and my PCs) seem to have no problems at all.

Re:Old News Indeed

[Registered Coward v2]

Those ads in the sunday paper where they promise to give you the product free/10% cash back/whatever if you find the same product at a competitor for less? They can do this because the manufacturers make essentially identical products but sell them with different model numbers to competing electronics stores -- so the models are unique to the chain carrying them. Usually this is called price protection and it's something the supplier will often guarantee in a specific market.

While manufacturers will give

Re:Old News Indeed

[Junior J. Junior III]

Could there still be a difference in build quality if not design? Maybe the high-end brands are getting the A-grade stuff and the low-end brands are selling the borderline-grade stuff that doesn't score as high at quality inspection time, much like how certain CPUs in a wafer will not clock high enough to sell as a high-end CPU, but if you downclock them they'll work fine as a lower-end model.

Re:Old News Indeed

[Fulcrum of Evil]

Maybe the high-end brands are getting the A-grade stuff and the low-end brands are selling the borderline-grade stuff that doesn't score as high at quality inspection time

If they're anything like Sony, they don't inspect their products at all - the build process is so refined that it costs more to inspect the product than it does to deal with returns.

Re:Old News Indeed

[Admiral Llama]

If they're anything like Sony, they're all borderline. Sony products have gone to hell. Remember when you used to be able to use a Sony CD player as wheel chocks or a battering ram, and it'd still work peachy? Now they barely survive the 90 day legal minimum warranty.

Re:Old News Indeed

[nolife]

Same with the HP laserjet line. Both of those companies went from innovation and solid performing products to bascially commodity junk. That increases profits for the short term but basically wipes out any long term stability. A good example is Dell entering the laser market. Ten years ago they would not have stood a chance against HP.

Re:Old News Indeed

[superpulpsicle]

We are entering an age of shitty quality everywhere. Look at mercedes, their cars used to last 10 years. Now they are being recalled a year after manufacturing. It's getting to the point where even brands don't really matter. No quality is associated with the price. We're just chucking up cash cause marketing said so.

Re:Old News Indeed

[ryanwright]

If they're anything like Sony, they're all borderline. Sony products have gone to hell.

Worse than that, the bastards don't honor their warranties. When HDTVs were brand spankin' new, I spent $4,000 on a large Sony set. Came with a "Red Carpet Warranty" that guaranteed repair within a week and replacement with a new one if they couldn't repair it within two weeks.

Day 2 of ownership, the TV breaks. Diagnostics report a bad circuit board. No problem, so I call Sony. The tech takes 2 weeks to get here. Then he beats the guns on my $4,000 set with the back of a screwdriver, tells me "this tv is too new, the service manual isn't out yet" despite the fact that I had downloaded one the day before (how do you think I knew how to access the diags?!). I tell him this. He says no, he's going to replace one of the guns. Of course now the TV is much worse than before - all three guns are damaged from him hitting them for over an hour. Oh, and parts are going to take another month to arrive.

So I call Sony to get my replacement TV. "We're sorry sir, we can't do that." Uhm, what? I have a piece of paper right here that says you will. "Sorry sir. We don't have a TV to send you." After half an hour of arguing I called Best Buy up and told them to come get the set. Bought a nice Toshiba instead.

I haven't required service on my Toshiba, but I did call their warranty department before I bought it and faked like I had a broken set. They answered the phone within a couple of minutes - Sony was over an hour on hold every time. They were polite and promised to fix my TV right away (that's when I confessed I really didn't have one, but that they had just made a sale).

I will never again buy another big ticket Sony product. Never. If I'd had the time, I would have sued the bastards for not honoring their warranty. But since it happened so soon after purchase, I had Best Buy on my side, so no need.

Re:Old News Indeed

[lars_boegild_thomsen]

Interesting how this debate turned around Sony. I kind liked their products back in the "old days". About 3 years ago I sort of fell in love with the bleeding edge top-of-the-line Vaio laptop. That is to this date the worst purchase I have EVER made. I travel quite a lot - in Europe and in the far east. I did in fact buy the laptop in a South-East Asian country - with INTERNATIONAL warrenty and service. Six month later I find myself in Europe - with my Vaio - minus the charger. Called Sony to get a n

Discriminatory pricing

[Tony-A]

What's interesting is that something can be uneconomic at all single price points but profitable to all with discriminatory pricing.

When marginal cost is considerably lower than average cost it is possible to consrtuct scenarios with counter-intuitive properties, including competition being bad for consumer prices.

This has been going on for years...

[IOOOOOI]

VCRs were one of the first I heard about to do this... one motherboard, vendors enable the features that they want for each model, depending on their marketing strategy.

Re:This has been going on for years...

[EtherAlchemist]

Automobile manufacturers have been doing this for decades before VCRs. In any given product that is similar from one brand to the next, chances are one source is building either many of the same components or the whole thing and rebranding it.

Rebranding is most prevalent in discounted (read: cheap) items spread out over different marketing territories. Gas, computers, soda, foods, appliances, operating systems and Internet service. Somebody, somewhere is making a buck no matter which brand of it you buy.

Even in network gear!!!

[Ayanami Rei]

Compare:
SMC TigerSwitch 8624T [smc.com]
Dell PowerConnect 5224 [dell.com]
NetGear GSM7324 [netgear.com]
DLink DGS-3324SR [dlink.com]
Well, that's all of them, except for Linksys, which is just rebranded Cisco equipment.
And of course, they all use COMPLETELY DIFFERENT firmware. Lovely.

Service and Volume are the factors

[usefool]

The price difference might be caused by the different level of services attached to a product.

On the other hand, businesses are more likely to buy in bigger quantity, or at least buying more regularly.

Re:Service and Volume are the factors

[tricorn]

Linksys sells a "Wireless Gaming Adapter" and a "Wireless Ethernet Bridge". They are basically identical, other than the form factor. I suppose the "Gaming Adapter" might run a little hotter, and might fail more often if left on continuously, but I bet the main reason they think they can get away with the $100 price differential ($179 for the WET, $79 currently for the WGA at Best Buy) is that people will think that connecting their workstation to the office wireless network with a "Gaming Adapter" would be wrong somehow.

Of course, the really dumb part of their pricing is that the wireless routers they sell are even cheaper and have a lot more hardware. 1 Ethernet port for the WAN side, 4 more switched ports on the LAN side - yet the things are cheaper even than a router that is basically identical except it doesn't have any wireless at all (I saw an 802.11g router at Best Buy for $60 after a $10 rebate - the 802.11b models are even cheaper, around $35-40 now).

Re:Service and Volume are the factors

[seanadams.com]

I'll comment on this since I've reverse-engineered both products.

They accomplish EXACTLY the same thing but the two products run completely different hardware AND software. Linksys does this so that they can pit one vendor against another until neither makes any money.

The wireless gaming adaptor uses a MIPS clone from SiliconData [silicon-data.com] with integrated PCI and ethernet interfaces and a Mini-PCI 802.11g card.

The WET54G uses a Ubicom [ubicom.com] processor (same as what's in the WET-11 [linksys.com] except 160MHz instead of 120MHz. It has a Davicom 10/100 MAC and a Cardbus 802.11g card.

Both probably cost exactly the same to produce, but having two designs gives leverage on the supply side and the ability to justify two vastly different price points on the shelf.

Dell is a big example

[Stonent1]

The poweredge 400sc is the same as their top of the line Dimension model bit in a less flashy case. The Poweredge in a minimum configuration costs about 349$ The Dimension you can't get for cheaper than about $1000. They do the same (or at least did) with their laptops. My Inspiron 4100 has been reflashed (by me) with the Latituce C610 bios so I can use the docking stations (with pci slots). Dells precision line is the same as well. Their precision notebooks are latitudes and inspirons but with a FireGL or Quadro card (which you can order separately from dell and stick in your laptop yourself) The desktop precision systems are the same as well. Just a Optiplex or Dimension with a good video card.

Re:Dell is a big example

[tsangc]

The desktop precision systems are the same as well. Just a Optiplex or Dimension with a good video card.

The difference between Precision Workstation (and similar products from Compaq and IBM) and other systems, are that they are qualified platforms for specialized applications. So if you want to run a specific MCAD/CAE suite, nonlinear editing tool or scientific visualization system, the fact that your application vendor has already qualified the machine is a major benefit, since the platform has alre

Re:Dell is a big example

[jayteedee]

Slight correction: The Poweredge 400SC can cost as low as $250 with the Celeron processor and $300 with the Pentium 4 (2.4Ghz) with Hyper Threading (HT) after rebates which are common on these units (just watch techbargains.com). Well worth the upgrade to the Pentium with HT because of the dual-port RAM (800 Mhz) as well as HT, and of course, the faster Pentium processor over the Celeron. I have one with the Pentium chip and two PC3200 RAM chips and this system just screams. Plus it is built like a tank

Re:Dell is a big example

[Jeff DeMaagd]

ECC memory is vital for servers as you can't afford to be swapping memory modules in and out of a production server in an attempt to track down a problem.

The support is definitely a reason for businesses to pay more.

ECC is something necessary not just for the reason you state, but because bits do flip at random. IIRC, even the top rated brands might experience a bit flip per gig per week or higher. It is insignificant for gamer machines, but that is bad for servers.

Alienware

[ir8monkey]

another big example is Alienware, but its Sager Notebooks who create the laptops for them.

really?

[jbellis]

Sager has an extremly sucktastic reputation. That would be a very good reason to stay away from Alienware laptops, if anyone needed another. (*cough* overpriced *cough*)

Re:really?

[Alric]

Hmm. Sucktastic is not exactly accurate, and neither is the parent.

Sager does not make laptops for Alienware. The truth is that both Sager and Alienware obtain their laptops from the same Asian supplier, Clevo [clevo.com.tw] Computer Co. of Taiwan.

And speaking as an owner of a Sager8886, I think that the Clevo products have their niche. They are not designed to be ultra-portable notebooks for business roadwarriors. They are supposed to be fairly mobile workhorses. They make some sense for power gamers who frequent W/LAN

Re:Alienware

[Anonymous Coward]

Wrong. [mindconnection.com]
Sager resells Clevos, just like Alienware. Although, the latest Area-51m is a Uniwill I believe.

I'm sorry ...

[anim8]

... but this is not a big deal. The example cited in the article should come as no surprise to anyone: a "business class" plasma TV without speakers or a tuner would naturally be cheaper than the "consumer" version which has these features.

The extra $330 dollars is the value to the consumer for not having to go and buy a separate tuner and sound system.

This is one of those "filler" stories you see on websites when there isn't enough real news for real journalism.

Re:I'm sorry ...

[damiangerous]

Who needs a TV tuner? I guess it's making somewhat of a comeback with OTA HD, but other than that I don't see any reason for a tuner. No one buying a big screen plasma is the sort of person who's content to watch the two of three local OTA channels, they'll have a cable or satellite box which plugs into the S-Video or RCA jacks. The same is true of speakers, though perhaps to a lesser extent. It's entirely reasonable to assume that someone buying a high end plasma television already has some sort of sur

Re:I'm sorry ...

[afidel]

Ugh, I can't stand paying for a cable box, besides I have PiP and so I would need TWO boxes with some way to keep them from responding to the same remote. I just go with basic non-digital cable and use the built in tuners. However I think you are right about the speakers, a good shielded center channel will be many times better than the built in speakers.

Not just electronics

[k4_pacific]

A friend of mine worked in a factory that made liquid soap. She ran a bottling machine. She said there would be batches of hundreds of bottles at a time. Each batch would have a different label, and would sell at a different price in the store. But they were filling them with the same slop from the same tank.

Re:Not just electronics

[JanneM]

A high-school friend worked in a similar place, making shampoo, when she was interning as a chemist. At the plant they added "profitone" - which was their internal joke name for water. They would have exactly the same soap base, but then add different batches of coloring, jelling agents, odorants, and, of course, "profitone".

Make the product more "luxurious": more jelling agent - "Ohh, look how rich and creamy it is!". Make a "sport-type" shampoo: more water and an odor that is more acidic and less flowery.

Re:Not just electronics

[poot_rootbeer]

Yeah, I had a friend who told a similar story. He worked in the sugar mines, and it turns out they'd package that sugar many different ways by adding various amounts of flour, milk, eggs, and such to it. They might sell cookies under one brand, and cake under another, but IT WAS STILL THE SAME SUGAR! We're being ripped off!

Re:Not just electronics

[MBCook]

The battery companies do the same things. They manufacture batteries for 3rd parties. When you Wal-Mart or Safeway batteries, there is a good chance you are actually buying an Energizer or Duracel. The companies admit that they do this, but the last time I saw a report on it they wouldn't admit who they manufactured batteries for, and gave some doubletalk about how their batteries were better quality for some reason (higher testing, higher standards, whatever).

I suspect that this is common in all industries. There is a decent chance that there is a reason you can't tell the difference between the namebrand and the knockoff sometimes.

Re:Not just electronics

[anticypher]

Although the batteries may come from the same manufacturer, and probably all from the same batches, there is a difference. At the end of the manufacturing step, the batteries are carefully tested using some precision electronics to measure things like internal resistance and impulse current. The subtle differences at that stage reveal whether a battery will die earlier or last longer. That is what determines which reseller label gets applied. The higher margin, well known brands will take bin 1 or bin 2 cells, lower margin store brands like to buy bin 5 or bin 6, which have a slightly lesser capacity. At the low end are the cells from bins 8 or 9, which will have a shorter shelf life, and die after a small amount of use. Those low quality cells tend to end up included with toys and other cheap consumer goods sporting a generic label.

The differences between the best and medium quality is not much, but the reject cells can be pretty bad.

the AC

Re:Not just electronics

[asdfghjklqwertyuiop]

I noticed a similar phenomenon when buying light bulbs. In comparing the store brand with the name brand (philips I think) I noticed that not only were the packages were almost identical in feel & construction, but the packages had the location of manufacture printed on them. Both brands were manufactured in the same city.

Re:Not just electronics-Cross-reference.

[general_re]

And that site will be up how many milliseconds before the first take-down notices arrive?

Based on what? If I notice that both Wal Mart and K-Mart trucks are driving out of the same lightbulb factory, what exactly are they going to point to in the law that would prevent me from sharing that information with others?

Paint too

[jridley]

A friend of mine worked a summer job in a paint factory where they canned spray paint. He loaded labels into the machine. Same cans of paint, it was the labels that determined whether it was a high end brand or some random house brand.

I worked a summer job in a plant that processed and canned pickles. We put sliced pickles in 5 gallon buckets and slapped Burger King, Long John Silvers, Wendy's, etc labels on them. Interestingly, the only one that was different was McDonalds. They had a special recipe for spices, and they were the 800 pound gorilla, so they could make the suppliers make special batches for them.

Re:Paint too

[nelsonal]

A friend worked at LambWeston (a potato processor) who sold fries to most fast food stores. McDonald's picked the most rotten spuds, while Arby's and BurgerKing had the best spuds. The translucent crispy part of a McDonalds fry is rotten potato. The current secret to McDonald's fries is a bit of sugar mixed with the salt. If you don't believe me add some to the next batch of fries you get, they will taste just like McDonald's with a bit of sugar.

also with gasoline, for the most part

[LighthouseJ]

I saw a great show on the History Channel about the history of the gasoline. Long story short, there are two types of gasoline pipes used to transport, dedicated and community. Dedicated transport pipes transport only one brand gasoline, and I believe Texaco and someone else has their own dedicated lines.

The rest use a pipe network that takes 14 days to send gasoline from one end to another. The system is setup that you can put in X gallons at one end and extract X gallons the same day from the other en

Re:also with gasoline, for the most part

[pipingguy]

Batch pigging [wiley.com]

how much ?

[Anonymous Coward]

about the same as those Nike trainers,starbucks coffee,Gap Shirt,Armani Trousers

its called branding, the selling of dreams

Re:how much ?

[dasmegabyte]

Insightful? Short sighted is more like it. Do you REALLY think the only reason people buy branded items is because of the name? If so, then why not simply by the cheapest items with that name on it? Why buy the more elaborate models?

I'll tell you why: because style is more than just a brand name. It's a combination of "dreams" as you put them and actual looks, fit and feel. I shop at the gap because their shirts really are nice looking, are comfortable, somewhat durable (especially the stitching) hav

Another dell example

[rabtech]

If you want to get even cheaper on managed switches, SMC gear is the exact same thing that Dell is selling at half the price.

You see Accton makes a ton of unmanaged and managed gear. They sell bigtime to the OEM market, and they also make most of Dell's stuff.

Who owns SMC? Accton.

Crack the cases and look at them side-by-side and it all becomes clear. Buy Dell and you pay twice as much for the same exact switch. Buy two for the same price as the Dell and you have support that even Dell can't beat - an always available spare!

Re:Another dell example

[deadgoon42]

Actually, I'm responding to your sig.. Republicans == Democrats, or didn't you know? I mean, they're all paid by the same lobbyists.

Radio Shack Optimous = RCA

[aardwolf204]

Ever wonder why Radio Smack stopped carying its "Optimous" brand of stereo and AV equiptment? It was all made by RCA. Now, they just cary the RCA brand on the shelves.

Isnt this like the whole "Frosted Mini-Wheats" VS. "Frosted Mini-Spooners" (Brand X) debate? I think a Kroger grocery store billboard in Richmond VA put it best. There is a picture of a field of String Peas plants on a farm. In the middle is a LARGE string pea sliced open. On the left is an arrow pointing to the top pea in the pod which says "National Brand" while the pea in the middle has an arrow on the right pointing to it which says "Kroger Brand".

Not too off-topic: I tried to convince my CIO that we could save money by using 7-Zip instead of licensing Winzip (not at the point to recommend Open Office or Linux yet) and he turned it down because "Winzip is the trusted name in ZIP compression", WTF, its actually PK's format! Dont even get me started on his views of PDFCreator vs. Acrobat.

Re:Radio Shack Optimous = RCA

[base3]

The fact that someone with the title "CIO" would utter such an abominably stupid thing is an affront to everything I hold dear. I bet he knows his politics damn well, though.

Interesting, but some of the price is justified...

[Joffrey]

For example, the Panasonic 42" plasma had a "consumer" and an "industrial" version. However, the article pointed out that the industrial version was $350 lower than the consumer version while glossing over the fact that the industrial version lacked an HDTV tuner, and built-in speakers. Clearly, the addition of those items justifies some increase, and 2-400 is reasonable given the cost of HDTV tuners as separate components.

In addition, he neglected to mention the difference in warranty duration (and the difference in customer service you might expect between a "name" brand such as RCA and a "generic" such as Coby).

Basic Economics

[brendanoconnor]

This whole article seems rather pointless. So much to the fact that any high school student who has took an economics class (required at many high schools) will know this simply as price disrimination. It happens in many different markets. Why would the technology market be any different?

Nothing to see here. Move along.

Brendan

There is some help available

[Anonymous Coward]

ConsumerReports.org
I used to have a subscription to the magazine. It was quite useful. Now, unless something is really a lot of money, I don't research the purchase anymore. I just buy the cheapest thing that will do the job. That usually works fine.

In Canada, we have a publication called LemonAid. It gives really good information about buying new and used cars. It is published by the Automobile Protective Association. I won't buy a car without checking it.

The bottom line is that we are not complet

I just have to say this

[frostbite2040]

*cough* IPOD *cough*

Value is subjective

[mc6809e]

People like to think there exists "out there" some "objectively correct" price.

That's a complete myth. The "correct price" is what the seller is willing to take and the buyer is willing to give. Everyone is different.

Some people value a product more than others and are willing to pay more. By creating different versions of essentially the same product, the maker can get appropriate compensation for those differences in value.

No sir, I don't like it.

[raygundan]

That concept pisses me off, whether it's the basis of a pure capitalism or not. Maybe it's the hard-wired instinct for "fairness" that we share with monkeys, or maybe it's the impossibiity of implementing such an idealized system. Or maybe it's because my idea of "what I'm willing to pay" is cost of stuff + cost of labor + reasonable profit. Anything more than that is gouging, and anything less is most likely subsidized by the gouging.

Who knows? I still don't like it. Why *can't* we all pay the same r

Customer Expectations

[hudsucker]

(sorry if too far off topic...)

In the 80's I worked in a commercial photo finishing lab -- the place your film gets processed when you drop it off at a grocery store.

They charged more to develop ISO 400 film than ISO 100 film. The explanation was that the customers thought that since ISO 400 film was more expensive, it would be harder or more costly to process it.

But the fact was that all C-41 films went through exactlythe same process. In fact, it costs less to process ISO 400, because more silver is recovered for recycling during the process.

So the conclusion is, they charge what people are willing to pay.

Not just electronics,

[gordonb]

but the practice exists in many fields.

A good example is medical devices and products. All you need to do is slap the term "medical" ona product and double or triple the price. Cheap rolls of 22" wide paper become exam table covers, manila folders become medical chart binders, and medical billing software companies always try to force you to buy their own equipment, all for a little extra lagniappe.

Don't even get me started on the price of a tablet of acetaminophen given in the hospital.

Re:Not just electronics,

[BCW2]

Go into a US hospital and get charged $6.00 for a fifty sheet box of Kleenex. Or $5.00 for one acetominaphine tablet. They are really trying hard to make it a $1500.00 per hour minimum for being in a room. In 1998 I had neck surgery, 22 hours in the hospital $25,000.00 hospital bill to my insurance.

TV's in Canada and the USA

[mikael]

I once bought a 20" TV in Canada, which was really cool because it had a message feature, where you could type in a message and have it scroll across the screen at a particular time. I moved to the USA, and the same make of TV (and model number) didn't have this feature :(

New news actually...

[shaitand]

That's backward, it's usually the business version that has a jacked up price.

If something claims to be for industrial or business use, normally it costs at LEAST twice what the consumer version does.

Old news - since the fifties!

[teamhasnoi]

It's pretty well known in music instrument circles that Sears, Montgomery Wards, and several other big-box stores sold guitars and amps under several different brands, with one manufacturer. Airline and Silvertone guitars (Wards and Sears, respectively) were all made by Harmony guitars as early as the 1940s.

These guitars were *exactly* the same from brand to brand, with the exception of colors, and some minor details (shape of pickguard, knobs, pickup covers).

Harmony brand usually sold for more money, followed by Sears and Wards even though the guitars were exactly the same.

When Japanese guitars started showing up for much less, there was much more 'spread' as many of the cheaper models were outsourced overseas. After some time, the industry shook itself out and the cycle began anew.

Now many of the old names are owned by the Japanese, and it is a similar situation.

Industrial Plasma monitors

[maynard]

Note that most all industrial plasma monitors don't include DVI with HDCP input, and usually only support VGA or component inputs. As a result they will quickly be obsolete once HDCP support becomes mandatory. While industrial plasma units are often $1K or more less than plasma HDTVs for the same display technology, there is a real added value, and thus additional cost, to the consumer branded technology. --M

Firewire Drives (say, Glyph vs Bytech)

[weston]

This came up for me today. I'm looking into buying some digital audio equipment for a small home project studio, and the salesman I talked to at Sweetwater stressed the importance of not just going with the 48GB internal 5400RPM drive I've got for my laptop... and recommended Glyph [glyphtech.com] drives. I said I'd think about it, and started to look them up on usenet [google.com]... some folks say that Glyph's quality and support are worth it. Others say that a screwdriver and some backup drives are just as good. I'm still trying to

OT: Theme

[sootman]

This theme is pretty (good job with the gradient logo!) but it's too low-contrast. White text on light brown/gold and light brown/gold text on white are both tough to read. Slashbots: please fix!

This is no different

[jeffkjo1]

This is no different than the automobile industry

Ford = Mercury = Lincoln
Chevy = GM
Chrysler = Dodge
Honda = Acura
Toyota = Lexus = Scion
Volkswagen = Audi = Porsche

The automobile family tree runs back over itself in so many different ways. Ford owns part of Mazda, and they both produce an identical SUV... with different name badging.

Re:This is no different

[RESPAWN]

Volkswagen = Audi = Porsche

I may be wrong on this one, but I don't think that Vokswagen actually owns a stake (or a major stake, anwyay) in Porsche. I know that they will occasionally partner to develop some vehicles together (Cayenne/Toureg being the most recent) due to Porsche's limited R&D abilities in non-sports car markets, but despite the fact that Ferdinand Porsche created the original Volkswagen, I don't think Volkswagen (the parent company of Audi, which in turn is now the parent company of

Re:This is no different

[Osty]

Ford = Mercury = Lincoln

= Mazda = Volvo = Aston Martin = Jaguar

Chevy = GM

= Pontiac = Oldsmobile (dead now) = Cadillac = Saab

Chrysler = Dodge

= Mitsubishi = Mercedes-Benz

Toyota = Lexus = Scion

= Chevy = GM (well, not quite -- Toyota rebrands the Cavalier in Japan, but otherwise there's little sharing between the two companies)

Volkswagen = Audi = Porsche

And this one is wrong. Volkswagen = Audi, but not Porsche. While it's true that Dr. Ferdinand Porsche started Volkswagen, and the Pieche and Porsche families have controlling interests in both the VAG (Volkswagen Automotive Group, including Audi, Bentley, and Lamborghini) and the PAG (Porsche Automotive Group, which is just Porsche), the Porsche car company is independently owned and is not part of Volkswagen. Parts and platforms are shared (the original 356 engine was a VW, as was the engine for the 914; the Boxster and 996 share relays and other mechanical parts with VW and Audi models; the Cayenne and the Touareg are built on the same platform; etc), but the companies are not the same. In all of your other examples, the companies are partially or fully owned.

The automobile family tree runs back over itself in so many different ways. Ford owns part of Mazda, and they both produce an identical SUV... with different name badging.

And it's only getting smaller. Gone are the days of many different manufacturers (for example, the single company Audi, which is now only a part of a larger company, started life as four independent companies -- thus the four interlocked circles of the Audi badge), but even back in the early days of automotive development there was a lot of "cross-polination". For example, Dr. Ferdinand Porsche helped built a number of early cars long before he built the first Volkswagen (and even longer before the first 356). Among others, he did plenty of work for Mercedes-Benz and the German military (the Panzer Tiger [achtungpanzer.com] was designed by Porsche). Porsche still does non-Porsche design work today, such as the engine on the Harley-Davidson V-Rod (this by the Porsche car company, and not the independent Porsche industrial design company).

That's not to say that the different badges don't bring something more to the table. I doubt you'd object that a Lexus ES500 is more luxurious than a corresponding Toyota Camry, or an Acura TSX compared to a Honda Acura. The platforms may be shared, but in many cases the "up-market" brand model will have a larger engine, better suspension (either tigher or softer, depending on the goal -- sports car or luxury car), fancier interiors (leather, woods, metals instead of plastics and vinyls), more options (navigation, sound options), etc. That's not always the case, since many Chevy and Pontiac cars are exact matches minus body cladding (Grand Prix and Monte Carlo, especially before the late-90s/early-00s body redesigns of the cars; Camaro and Firebird prior to the cancellation of the F-body line; Cavalier and Sunfire; etc), but Cadillac is GM's upscale brand, and it shows. The Cadillac CTS (not CTS-V) may be nearly identical to a Chevy Impala, but the CTS is going to be more luxuriously appointed. Perhaps not enough to justify the $10,000+ price difference, but enough to justify some increase in price.

Re:This is no different

[Fulcrum of Evil]

Just to add another datapoint, the new Saab 9-2x is apparently a rebadged Impreza wagon.

Re:This is no different

[danb35]

At least in the US market, there are no overlapping VW and Audi models (the closest is the Audi A4 and VW Passat, but they're on different chassis). Porsche is a different company entirely. They've borrowed some of VW's technology in the past, but they're not the same company.

Re:This is no different

[foxtrot]

Indeed. Back in the '90s, a Geo/Chevy Prism was the same car as a Toyota Corolla. The same workers at the same factory in Fremont, California built the same cars, and slapped a different logo on 'em when they were done.

Corollas sold for a few thousand more than Prisms-- because Geos suck, and Toyotas don't.

The odd thing is: Prisms got worse reliability ratings than Corollas, too. Same car, same assembly line, but somehow, people decided their Geo sucked harder than other people believed their Toyotas suck

Re:This is no different

[MarcQuadra]

That has to do with the kind of driving people with different amounts of money tend to do.

Kids in the ghetto tend to be in inner-city traffic more, they get the prizm, and they can't pay for every brake-job and oil-change they need. Young professionals get the corolla, commute on the freeway, and take their car to the dealer until they learn better.

It's no wonder the corollas were going farther and longer. Hell, I'd take better care of a more expensive car thean the cheap-o model!

Looks the same is not necessarily the same

[sdo1]

Be careful here. A product that look exactly the same might not be. It might even be made in the same factory from the same parts. But electronics go thorugh a lot of testing along the way in manufacturing and the cheaper ones might be produced with looser specifications. It might even be "outlyers" from the core product.

For example if the brand name version has a spec on some output that calls for 40-50 (insert unit of measure here), units that come off the line with 35-39 or 51-55 might go into the "low cost brand" bin. They still work, but they're not opimal quality.

It's also very easy in electronics to disable features, depopulate boards, etc. Buy a million 5% resistors. Sick the ones closest to nominal in the brand name product, stick the others in the discount product. So, maybe the picture quality isn't as good. You saved fifty bucks, so don't complain.

-S

Good point

[mookoz]

Here's an example, but in the OPPOSITE direction. A relative of mine works for a large company that makes batteries (the one with the tinted hare).

They make alkaline cells for a myriad of companies. Walgreens, Radio Shack, Wal-Mart, Albertsons, the list goes on and on.

According to him (he used to work as a production manager in one of their large plants), the batteries made for other customers were actually tested MORE than their own name brand, since the potential damage was greater if they lost one of

I have to say this

[myov]

(at least from my experience).
Sony stuff is garbage. Total, complete garbage.
I've seen many sony products die prematurely. Example: my Sony VCR died well *before* the vcr it replaced.

Yet, many people are convinced that Sony is one of the best electronics brands. And, in fact, pay more to have a Sony product.

News Flash!

[DrSbaitso]

1. "Products that are more highly demanded are sold for higher prices! Film at 11."

2. insert rant on advertising and its harmful affects on consumer welfare

3. submit to slashdot

4. insert hackneyed, trite cliches and catchphrases.

5. ???

6. Profit!

All computers are pretty much the same

[gelfling]

Really they are unless you're an antisocial comicbook nerd who gets a woody out of the latest 1.5% better performing $700 videocard.

Guess what analretentives????

My Camry is the SAME car as a Lexus ES300.

Plasma Price Example == UNDERSTATED

[l0ungeb0y]

"One of our freelancers, Stewart Wolpin, did this recently with a Panasonic model, the TH-42PHD6UY, a stripped-down version of the TH-42PX20UP. Wolpin purchased the TH-42PHD6UY for just over $5,000, tax and a stand included"

That freelancer needs a whap on the head because he got ripped off. I recently purchased a brand spanking new TH-42PHD6UY for just over 4k after the addition of a 4yr extended REPLACEMENT warranty an optional DVI Interface board (this version allows the user too swap interface cards

Price match avoidance

[GordoSlasher]

Sometimes you'll see a retail store advertise a product, such as a dishwasher, with the claim that they'll match the price if you find it lower at a competing store. The fine print says that it must be the exact same model number. What they don't tell you is that the manufacturer's model number is exclusive to that store chain so it's impossible to find that *exact* model number at a competing store.

Things that AREN'T the same

[jridley]

It's also interesting to see what misleading labelling makes people think they're getting more when they're getting less.

I had a friend who owned an electronics dealership. He sold camcorders, among other things. He showed me a shady practice done by at least one camcorder manufacturer. A fictitious example; if he sells, say, a CRV-510 camcorder, the same manufacturer will also make a CRV-515 model, and it will only be sold in large lots to big box resellers like Best Buy, etc. The consumer will see the "bigger model number" and assume it's a better model. It will look identical, and will superficially perform the same. It will probably have some cheap, useless feature that's implemented 100% in firmware (like more fade/wipe patterns or something) so they can have more bullet points on their box.

However, it will have hidden things that are not generally touted which will be inferior; the CCD will have 100,000 less imaging pixels, the S/N ratio of the video amps will be a bit less good, the D/A converters will be cheaper and more noisy, or something. Nothing that Joe Sixpack would even know what you're talking about if you mentioned it. But they'll think they're making a smart purchase buying it at Wal*Mart, and be convinced that the mom & pop down the street are just trying to rip them off.

I've known this for awhile

[GrimSean]

I've been considering building a new computer for myself, as the one that I'm typing this on is coming up on 6 years old (PII 400 MMX - ohhhh yeah!). This means that I've been pricing out parts for the last few months, and I've noticed some serious discrepancies between prices on the exact same product at online retailers and in store.

I've been eyeing this [ncix.com] combo CDRW & DVD drive for my CD burning / DVD watching needs. I was in Futureshop [futureshop.ca] about a month back, and noticed the same exact drive in their computer section, above a sign that read this price [futureshop.ca]. I assumed that this was wrong, and pointed it out to the guy behind the counter.

"No," I'm told, "that's the correct price."

"But I can buy that exact same drive for about $75 online - don't you think that $120 is a little expensive?"

Once the guy finds out that it was NCIX that had this price, he starts ranting - yelling basically - about authorized distributors, and how as an authorized distributor, Futureshop doesn't have to match that price - besides, NCIX doesn't guarantee their products!

"Yes they do," I tell him, "plus they don't yell at their customers for asking questions."

At this point I walked away to pay for my purchase, and the cute girl at the register asked me how my visit to Futureshop was - I replied that it would have been great except for the jerk in computers, who I pointed out to her.

"That's the manager, sir."

In-effing-sane. Like I said to my buddies when I recounted this story, there's a serious problem somewhere in the supply chain when the same product costs 50% more at one location than another - somebody is getting screwed, and given the choice between the two retailers, I'm going for the one that causes less damage to my wallet.

Re:I've known this for awhile

[Zakabog]

Dude you're comparing 2 different (only it's a very slight difference) drives, and one's OEM while the other is retail, there will be a price difference. LG gives you a warranty for the retail product while the OEM isn't covered at all (by LG, dunno NCIX's policy.) The Future Shop product also has everything needed to install (cables, screws, jumpers) plus software, plus manuals. That's pretty much what you're paying for in the difference. Although at that price I would have bought neither drive (you ca

like, phone service?

[Trailer Trash]

I pay twice as much for business phone service as residential, coming into the same house.

BellSouth tried to sell me "business" DSL for well over twice the residential price. This is no joke. They sent a thing to my wife offering DSL for $45/month, and two days later I get a telemarketing call on my business line offering the same speed DSL for $90. I asked her why I should pay that when BellSouth was also offering the same thing for $45.

First, she denied it. Finally she admitted it, but said that the business service was better. Why? Because if they had to send out repair, I'd get next day for business but it'd possibly take a few days for residential. Gee, is there possibly a better way to back yourself into a corner?

So the obvious question: Is your DSL service down so much that this would affect my buying decision? I love it, she had two choices: "yes, our service sucks" or "no, you'd be wasting your money."

She settled with "no" and ended the call.

Plenty of companies want to charge you more for services if you're running a business.

Things like this can be noble.

[cfalcon]

Many of the above comments are about how brand name companies make the same thing under different names, and sell them for different prices, sometimes with different marketing schemes.

There's a bunch of marketing stories about how if there are two products, one cheaper, one more expensive, that are about the same, most people will go for the cheaper one. Add a new one more expensive than the top one, however, and the old top (the new middle) dramatically increases in sales.

And there's the story about Taco Bell (a fast food chain here in America, for you barbarians ;) ) getting advice to raise their prices- Americans believed that the prices were so low that the quality had to be lower. They rose prices and took in cash.

Most of the time these stories are basically saying "THESE COMPANIES ARE LYING TO US!!!". Some times they are commenting on percieved human stupidity, which is what we call it when an emotional system finely honed for survival in the wild proves mildly susceptible to some new cunning analysis and we don't take the most logical path.

I want to give another point: you are, in some cases, watching the free market help the little guy. This is private industry giving "welfare", a strong discount to those who can't afford the pretty name. Buying batteries and poor? Well, you aren't getting worse batteries, you're just paying less. The only real currency we have is emotion, and we are witnessing poor people "paying" with emotion in comparison with rich people- they can't necessarily get the cool name, and good packaging and the warm feeling it produces. But, they aren't getting screwed with a product that blows up or fails or is just crap!

I used to hate this, but then I realized that if it bugged me so much, I could just buy non brand name products all the time. Or I could just shut up and buy Duracells and help support an industry standard that actually has beneficial side effects to those with less money, without making me feel like it's picking my pocket.

This could be a lot worse. This is in many ways noble.

Re:Things like this can be noble.

[16K Ram Pack]

There's an interesting thing about branded supermarket goods. Someone in the UK found that lower earners bought more of them than higher earners, who would settle for a shops own brand.

The reason? People on low income can't afford to by Mercedes or BMWs, but at least they can reach the pinnacle in cola or corn flakes.

Branding is all about emotion. People want to own a Mercedes or a BMW, even though Toyotas are a much better deal. It's partly that the price is out of reach, and that the car defines that

DEC's $27.000 disk drive

[rfc1394]

Back in the 1970s, Digital Equipment Corporation (DEC) sold mainframes, minicomputers and various components to go with them. One of which was a 100 MB disk drive, which was about the size of a washing machine. It also cost (then) $27,000. It was also possible to purchase disk drives that would work the same as DEC's from the company that was considered the best disk drive maker in the world, Control Data Corporation (CDC), for about $7,000, plus you had to spend about $700 for a controller card (DEC's drives had the controller built in.)

It was commonly said about DEC equipment was that it was good stuff, high reliability and well built, but expensive. One oft-repeated comment was "We'd love to be an all-DEC shop but we can't afford it."

Apparently someone who owned both the expensive DEC drives and the less expensive - but still extremely reliable - CDC drives decided to take a look and see why the DEC drives were so much more expensive. They had to do some preventative maintenance on one anyway so they decided to look at both of them. So they disassembled both and checked them out.

Apparently what it was, was that DEC put together a high quality drive, added some electronics to it, and built their own from that. And what did DEC use for the high quality drive that they sold for $27,000? The very same $7,000 drive from Control Data!

Re:DEC's $27.000 disk drive

[scharkalvin]

I worked for DEC in the late 70's so I can comment on this one:

DEC's RK02 and RK03 disk drives were side loading cartridge drives that were OEM versions of third party drives. But DEC added their own electronics and changed the formating. It WAS possible to use the third party drives, with some user installed mods. The DEC RK05 disk drive was built from the ground up by DEC. It was a vastly improved version of the OEM drive (IE: voice coil head movement vs stepper motor). The RK05 DID use the same hea

This is why you won't see me shopping...

[evilviper]

This is essentially the #1 reason why you won't see me out shopping, expect on very rare occasions... Shopping, comparing specs and prices is difficult enough without having to look-up the circuit diagrams for each product to make sure you're not getting crap from someone else.

I bought a Sony CD-RW that turned out to be a Lite-On... If I had wanted a Lite-On, I would have got one, for less... Instead, I try to go with a halfway decent brand, and get screwed. Not just because it's rebranded, but I avoid no-name junk because it typically has problems. Without going into details, Audio-CDs have to be burned at 4X, and you can't get it to burn at any speed other than 4X or 40X.

So, what's the end result of rebranding???
I'm not buying ANYTHING from Sony EVER AGAIN. I don't trust any name brands, so if I'm going to get crap, might as well be the cheapest, from a no-name. I don't have any way to know I'm not getting crap, so I buy nothing from anyone until I REALLY need it. I don't have a DVD-RW yet because of this.

Basically, I'm avoiding buying anything until I find some way I can know I'm not getting junk. I would go on a shopping-spree if there was a store around here that made sure they don't carry junk. Instead, absolutely every store has given-in to the Made-in-China junk market, and sells whatever is cheapest, even if it doesn't work as advertised. I would stick to a certain brand if they were consistently good, and reasonably priced (not necessarily cheap, just not insanely expensive).

Okay, I'm more or less ranting now, but it's true. Companies are all to happy to sell-out their long-term future in exchange for a short-term jump in revenue, just long enough that they can sell-off their stock, or find a job at another company they can pump and dump.

Rebranded Girlfriends

[Spackler]

This also applies to rebranded girlfriends. I have had more than a few, and have found that there are not too many manufacturers. What happens is the get built in groups at 3 factories in holland. The only thing they change is the trim level.

I tested out the slick trim package, but it lacked a little in performance (and was quite expensive to repair).

I then tested some budget models. Some performed well, but I was embarrased to be in them.

Finally, there was a brand called "Wife". The trim was pleasing, but not flashy. Fairly low maintenance costs (buying beats leasing, because of the higher milage). I only wish I could point you to a dealer that carries them. Unfortunately, they go out of business as soon as the first deal in done. Sometimes they open up shop again, but who wants a used one?

Price Discrimination

[TheSync]

Price Discrimination [thefreedictionary.com] is fairly common in almost all industries. But it is extremely common in industries where there are large initial capital requirements in R&D, compared to the marginal cost of production (such as microprocessors, automobiles, and pharmaceuticals).

Before 200 years ago or so, price discrimination was standard operating procedure, as most products were haggled for. The seller would haggle to determine the highest price the buyer is willing to pay.

The industrial revolution, telecommunications advances, and the rise of the catalog store (such as Sears) made it less advantageous to haggle with every customer, and the standard price became popular. Imagine haggling with your checkout clerk at the local grocery store.

But price discrimination never went away. "Price skimming," charging higher prices to early adopters, is standard with consumer electronics. Brand and off-branding is another means of price discrimination, as is pricing by region or country.

Re:Speakers + Tuner = $330 Price Increase Stupid

[Kris_J]

I picked up on that one too. I wouldn't want a screen predominantly for TV that couldn't play anything by itself, because I don't want to have to turn everything on every time. Heck, when I bought my first 15" LCD screen for home I spent 3x the price of a normal screen in order to get one with speakers, a tuner and lots of video input options.

Re:How is this news?

[jridley]

You think Levi jeans are any better made (from a practical point of view) than a no-label pair picked up in a department store?

They USED to be, but not anymore. They used to be serious work wear, made in the US, and would last years. At some point, Levis started to be marketed as fashion. At some point shortly after that (and partly due to pressure from Wal*Mart), they outsourced their production to Asia and cut their standards from "farmer/carpenter wear" to "teenybopper/yuppie wear" - now they tear j

Re:consumer versus industrial electronics

[Kiryat Malachi]

Usually industrial parts are bin-sorted, because suppliers get it through the nose if their parts fail during a QA run (I've watched a Fortune 50 company refuse to do business with a chip house until they fixed some issues with one of their processes - Wal-Mart tactics get used all over). As a result, if the manufacturer can't guarantee the spec by design, they'll bin-sort.

On the other hand, at least for chips its unusual for there to be any difference between the parts other than the guaranteed temperature ranges (consumer is usually 0-70c, industrial is usually -40 to 125c, and military is usually -50 to 150c). Industrial parts come at a minor premium over consumer, while milspec parts come at a major premium over industrial.

So, to make it short - 90% of the time, ICs are bin-sorted and sold as binned. Every once in a while, you'll come across a consumer part that runs like an industrial, but its rare.