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Mini PC Grows Up? Shuttle XPC Reviewed 238

Posted by simoniker from the big-boy-now dept.
Bender writes "The Tech Report has done a comprehensive review of the just-redesigned Shuttle XPC. These toaster-sized systems, sold with motherboard but sans CPU, memory, and storage, are becoming a very attractive alternative to the standard DIY system that's over twice the size. This latest PC 'cube' has everything: PCI Express, a BTX-inspired chassis design, room for a small RAID array, and pre-routed cables. The only snag is a Pentium 4 thermal throttling problem discovered through some nice investigative work. If Shuttle can fix this problem, this thing could be a killer personal workstation box."
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Mini PC Grows Up? Shuttle XPC Reviewed More

Mini PC Grows Up? Shuttle XPC Reviewed

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  • I wnat one! (Score:2, Interesting)

    by networkBoy ( 774728 )
    In spite of the thermal problem I want one. Just another challenge to overcome in modding it ;)
    -nB

  • A little eerie (Score:5, Funny)

    by grunt107 ( 739510 ) on Monday July 26, 2004 @03:48PM (#9805593)
    Not to be troll, but a 'shuttle' computer that has thermal problems seems to be Karmic naming.

  • Heat Problems??? (Score:3, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 26, 2004 @03:48PM (#9805594)
    Did some of the tiles break off during the launch?

  • More powerful than you think (Score:5, Interesting)

    by xenostar ( 746407 ) on Monday July 26, 2004 @03:49PM (#9805600)
    My company has a little Shuttle that we use as a temporary server in situations that require a server to go up as soon as possible, and it's the handiest thing on earth. Just stick it into a bag, go to the site, configure it and in an half hour you have a server running. I love those little things.

  • RAID? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by js7a ( 579872 ) <james@nOspAm.bovik.org> on Monday July 26, 2004 @03:49PM (#9805601) Homepage Journal
    Wouldn't it be a little more honest to say "an extra hard drive" than "a small RAID array"?

    • Re:RAID? (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Hatta ( 162192 )
      Who wants a small raid array anyway? Better to have a big 8 disk raid-5 stuck away in your server room available over the network.

    • Re:RAID? (Score:2)

      by swb ( 14022 )
      Does the system have on-board hardware RAID? "A small RAID array" might not even be honest if all you can do is software RAID across your non-boot partition and a second HDD.

      • Re:RAID? (Score:2)

        by swb ( 14022 )
        Actually, you can do Intel's goofy Matrix RAID with the ICH6R chip -- RAID 1 and RAID 0 on the same two drives at the same time.

        I don't know what performance in this situation is really like, but it's an interesting idea.
      • Does the system have on-board hardware RAID?

        Sadly, no. It uses the ICH6R chip which has some Raid functionality on the chip itself, but the ICH6R requires software drivers, and only supports Windows [intel.com].

        So it's not true hardware RAID.
    • It does have an onboard RAID controller and enough space for two hard drives (three if you don't require a floppy).
    • We have 8 of these boxes at my office. They are very nice for workstations.

      However, we need to clear something up about this so-called "RAID array".

      From the page [techreport.com]:
      "4 ports Serial ATA 150 via ICH6R south bridge with RAID 0,1 support"

      This box uses the Intel ICH6R chip and is software RAID. The box ships with drivers for Windows, but does not offer any drivers or support using ICH6R under Linux.

      There are patches to the 2.6 kernel which let you use ICH5R, but why use an unsupported test module when you can j

  • P4? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward

    Surely there's a Socket-939 version around too?

    Nice way to side-step that whole "Prescott Sucks" problem.

    • Re:P4? (Score:3, Interesting)

      by b1ng0 ( 7449 )
      Yes, there is: http://www.iwill.net/zmax/zmaxdp_1.asp [iwill.net]

      • Re:P4? (Score:2, Insightful)

        by neafevoc ( 93684 )
        Since that's for Opteron and not Athlon64, wouldn't this be Socket 940?

        Still, I want one of these :)

        I hope nVidia releases an update to the nForce chipset so it can support PCIe. I mean, they're already releasing PCIe video cards.
    • ...it is called the SN95G5. Looks extremely cool, but personally I find socket 939 to be a drawback at the moment. Currently even the slowest socket 939 carries a high premium, personally I would prefer a socket 754 machine. Unfortunately, then you're stuck with an old chipset (nForce 150), at least going with Shuttle.

      Kjella

  • If this works... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by maztuhblastah ( 745586 ) on Monday July 26, 2004 @03:51PM (#9805613) Journal
    If this works, then Apple might crap its pants. Really though, the concept of an ultra-compact, cube computer has been around for a while...this is just the PC manifestation. Maybe this could inspire Apple to re-release the Cube...



    ...or not.

    • Re:If this works... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by slomr2 ( 663204 ) on Monday July 26, 2004 @05:05PM (#9806243)
      If this works, then Apple might crap its pants. Really though, the concept of an ultra-compact, cube computer has been around for a while...this is just the PC manifestation. Maybe this could inspire Apple to re-release the Cube...
      The problem with the cube wasn't technology or willing customers. It was last of customers willing to pay MORE than Apple's already inflated prices for a computer that does less than their regular offering. If Apple released a G5 Cube for $999 they would have more trouble keeping those in stock than the iPod-Mini. But Apple being Apple would release it at $1,999.
  • I've been looking around for these Micro/Mini PC cases recently and have only found the Antec Aria case for sale.

    Does anyone know of a place to get other cases like this, with or without the motherboards. Thanks.

  • Microstar (Score:3, Interesting)

    by rokzy ( 687636 ) on Monday July 26, 2004 @03:54PM (#9805659)
    The new Microstar 180 Mega SFF are amazingly sexy and can be used as a Hifi when turned off, shame they're a little noisy or I'd have one in a second.

    Anyone know what's the best SFF for quiet computing? It seems to me that if you buy a SFF PC it's because you want it to be quiet and convenient. Performance is not a priority.

    • Re:Microstar (Score:3, Informative)

      by hoggoth ( 414195 )
      > Anyone know what's the best SFF for quiet computing?

      The Shuttle Zen XPC. Built to be quiet.

      • Re:Microstar (Score:4, Informative)

        by Kent Recal ( 714863 ) on Monday July 26, 2004 @04:53PM (#9806159)
        Here's a review [dansdata.com].
      • Anyone know what's the best SFF for quiet computing?

        The Shuttle Zen XPC. Built to be quiet.

        I'm posting from one right now. It's sitting on top of a desk in my living room, and is indeed pretty quiet.

        Cute little box. I'm very happy with it. My only complaint is that I haven't gotten 3D acceleration working--the little bit of research I did suggested it should work with open source drivers, but no luck so far.

        --Bruce Fields

    • All the people I know who have SFF PCs got them because they were sick of hauling towers to LAN parties, not because you can shove it in a corner and make it be silent.

      Those two people who have shuttles have the most powerful machines at our LAN session as well
    • What part of "well regulated" is so hard to understand?

      The part where those words were written 100 years before the concept of "governmental regulation" existed. Try a history course.
      • really? the US government was the first ever government? people couldn't possibly imagine a situation where a government could regulate their actions? and yet they could predict the future so well that they knew it would always be a good idea to have armed civilians? wow. impressive.

  • Cool Network Appliance (Score:2, Interesting)

    by nkntr ( 583297 )
    This would make a cool linux router box.. diskless, of course, and on a live cd/dvd... =) A little netfilter, ip2r4oute, freeswan, shorewall, snort -- shake vigorously and "voila" ---- Router...

  • Athlon 64 versions as well (Score:5, Informative)

    by CdBee ( 742846 ) on Monday July 26, 2004 @03:57PM (#9805687)
    According to This Page [shuttle.com] an Athlon 64 XPC of similar appearance is either available or pending - the Shuttle site appears to be under heavy load and is glitching badly so I can't give any further detail.

    It's good to see that users who jib at Intel's excessive prices are looked after by Shuttle.
    • I'm pretty sure Newegg already has Athlon64 based Shuttle boxes in stock. I'll be putting together a Biostar version this evening. So far the Biostar seems to have a slightly better internal layout than the Shuttles I've used but I'm not too confident in the PSU and case fan. They both give me the impression that they may die in a year or so. The Shuttles I've used have all seemed pretty reliable.

  • TVOut? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by usefool ( 798755 )
    I see there's a built-in graphic (VGA port), but no where can I find the mention of TVOut, so I guess it's not part of the package.

    Personally I have to wait until there's a AMD version + TVOut. I (and most people) already have a 'okay' desktop, but I wouldn't mind an entertainment centre that can be placed in the lounge.

  • Vindication of the Power Macintosh G4 Cube (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 26, 2004 @03:58PM (#9805702)
    The popularity of these small, easily portable machines would seem to vindicate the G4 cube.

    Although Apple users are not often the sort of gamer who would want a machine to carry to LAN parties, I've always thought that Apple had a great product in the cube, and as the years have gone past, I've come to think that it was, like the Newton, simply ahead of its time. I wonder what would happen today if Apple introduced a G5 cube in the spirit of these mini-PCs.

    (And they can re-introduce the Newton any day now, but I won't hold my breath... :-)
    • The cube did not fail because it was ahead of its time, because users didn't understand it. For many users there was nothing wrong with it technically and many would have loved to get one. It was simply overpriced. The popularity of these PCs confirm the G4 cube's flaw.

      FWIW, these PC go a little beyond the G4 Cube. The are not considered portable merely because of their size. Many have integrated handles, font mounted I/O ports, etc. to facilitate portability. The G4 cube was lacking in this respect. To

  • work well in portable application (Score:4, Informative)

    by SadPenguin ( 776485 ) on Monday July 26, 2004 @04:00PM (#9805718) Homepage
    I work for an event staging company and we use about 20 of these shuttle pc's to run our portable media (powerpoint, dvd's, mpeg video etc.). For standard presentation fare, and general use, over very long periods of time (sometimes on for days) these little boxes perform very well. we've never had a heat problem (though it doesn't seem outrageous that there could arise such an issue, as they tend to run *very* warm, but not to the point of anything critical).
    i didn't rtfa (c'mon, i'm a busy man....) but regardless of what they say, by experience, i say that these get the job done, and take up a hell of a lot less weight/space in shipping.
  • Does it play Doom 3?

  • NIce cases (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Cthefuture ( 665326 ) on Monday July 26, 2004 @04:12PM (#9805820)
    They make nice little machines. As I've said many times before, quiet and small is the future for PC's.

    They have always been rather pricey though. And they never seem to get cheaper. Even the very old versions cost the same as they did when they were the latest design. All they do is keep coming out with new versions that cost even more. Goofy. That's why I haven't bought another in several years.

    I wish someone would take this design a step farther. That is, since they are supplying the motherboard, power supply, and case there is a perfect opportunity to tie the components that get hot to the case. You know, to be cooled from outside the case by using the case itself as a giant heatsink (just add some subtle ridges/fins to the outside). That way you have less fans and more room inside. Or more room to make the whole thing even smaller.
    • I wish someone would take this design a step farther. That is, since they are supplying the motherboard, power supply, and case there is a perfect opportunity to tie the components that get hot to the case.

      Ouch. That would be a lawsuit waiting to happen. I can see the headlines now: "Little old lady holds SFF computer between her legs while trying to get the Live CD out of the case..."
    • The price premium for small form-factor really isn't too bad. Unless you go for really small. The price of the case is a wash, where you usually have to pay a premium is the motherboard and possibly "thin" components (like a slimline DVD drive instead of a standard 5.25" drive). The other place you might pay more is if the unit only is able to hold a 2.5" laptop hard drive.

      I have a fanless VIA EPIA in a Morex Venus 668 case (logicsupply.com carries them). The case probably barely qualifies as SFF, but

  • I have two of em at home... (Score:3, Informative)

    by fitten ( 521191 ) on Monday July 26, 2004 @04:13PM (#9805831)
    I have two of the SN41G2s at home that I got about a year and a half ago. One has an Athlon XP 2600+/333 w/ ATI 9800 Pro and the other an Athlon XP 2400+/266 w/ ATI 9600 XT. Both have 1G memory. My fiancee and I use these as our main machines and we carry them every so often over to friends' house for our mini-LAN games (mini being that there are usually only around 6 of us there). They are much easier to transport than any one of our other four tower/mini-tower case machines. Both of the machines run very well and are very performant given their hardware. I'm glad we got these (and so are our backs).

  • I have two (they're small...) (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Darth Maul ( 19860 ) on Monday July 26, 2004 @04:16PM (#9805850)
    I have two for MythTV boxes. They are the previous model, but they're still great. The best part about one of the new model is the power brick is external, so you have less heat generated inside the small box. The fan and thermal pipe configuration makes for a *very quiet* box; perfect for home theater applications.
  • I've personally built quite a few Shuttles, among 4 different models, and I love them; unless I need a big server with redundant RAID or something, Shuttle is all I'll ever go with now. Quiet, runs fast and cool, and my decked out one is more than adequate for games; I'm willing to bet I can run Doom3 at a bearable frame rate, even. And I tote it to LAN parties to destroy people in UT2k4 or America's Army, running either 1600x1200fullscreen or 1280x1024windowed with no performance loss.

    You can make a per

    • Not this one... (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Grendel Drago ( 41496 )
      You can make a perfect home/office/small business machine for under $400, that will last for years.

      Yes, you can... but not with a Shuttle box. It's a motherboard and a case for $400. With that same $400 I can get an Ugly Beige Box with better hardware on the inside.

      Price ain't the reason to get this baby.

      --grendel drago
      • For a new Shuttle box, yeah its pricey. New hardware always is. If you're the kind that buys videocards or processors when they're brand new, then a new Shuttle wont cause you to bat an eye. But if you look at the second and third-newest hardware you find real gems for inexpensive home/office use. And the small form factor makes them highly appealing for a variety of reasons for many people. If you dont care about having an ugly beige monstrosity (I have 2, and still love them) then yes, you can genera
    • Do you work for the Department of Redundancy Department?

      the R in RAID stands for Redundant ya know.

      Oh well you type your PIN number into an ATM machine too, right :)
      • Actually I was referring to using one of the RAID striping levels (that I can't remember the proper number of) to create mirrors of data, versus using a RAID to just have two hard drives appear as one larger one. So rather than Google-search the number since I never remember the things, I just called it redundant :p

  • Nice PC's (Score:4, Informative)

    by PeterChenoweth ( 603694 ) on Monday July 26, 2004 @04:18PM (#9805866)
    These PC's are pretty sweet. My wife has one that's about 6 months old - AMD 2800+, 1GB RAM, Radeon 9800 Pro graphics, XP Pro, etc. We've never had any trouble with overheating, but the thing is rather noisy. The CPU/Case fan ramps up and down depending on CPU load.

    They're great PC's, but not for quiet environments.

    • Re:Nice PC's (Score:5, Informative)

      by Darth Maul ( 19860 ) on Monday July 26, 2004 @04:28PM (#9805950)
      My fan would ramp up sometimes as well under heavy CPU load. Here are two things that you can do to make it silent:

      1) Change the BIOS setting for the Smart Fan speed up temperature cutoff.

      2) Order and install a Nexus 80mm fan in place of the stock one. I got mine from endpcnoise.com.

      My main Shuttle is even packed in a crowded entertainment center with minimal airflow and it still stays really quiet with low temps under high CPU load. The only sound I can hear is the hard drive, and even for that I have to get down to within a foot of the box.
    • I had an SN41G2, the noise issue was 100% due to the video card fan.

      The issue is, the video card fan points right at the holes in the side of the case, and is about 1/4" from them. So you get loud forced air out the small vent holes, which gets very noisy. I drilled the vent holes out a little larger, but it was still louder than I wanted.

      Mine was actually quieter with the case open, because this blown noise didn't exist. But then you got more drive noise.

      I ended up selling it and getting a Coolermast

  • When will they finally create a good looking PC? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by knipknap ( 769880 ) on Monday July 26, 2004 @04:19PM (#9805875) Homepage
    Is there /any/ well designed PC out there? The only great box I have ever seen is this one: http://mini-itx.com/news/images/story0334.jpg [mini-itx.com], which is built for the less-powerful mini-itx board only.
    I wish there were more boxes not looking so... PC. Hush (http://www.hush-technologies.com/start.html [hush-technologies.com]) is getting close, but not close enough... this is still look kind of cheap. Any hints?

  • Wait... (Score:5, Funny)

    by okmnji ( 791276 ) on Monday July 26, 2004 @04:20PM (#9805888)
    These toaster-sized systems, [...] a Pentium 4 thermal throttling problem

    Wait... so does this mean I really *CAN* put Linux on my toaster?

  • Finger pincher (Score:5, Insightful)

    by iamdrscience ( 541136 ) on Monday July 26, 2004 @04:24PM (#9805921) Homepage
    I like tiny electronics as much as the rest of us, but for desktop PCs I don't think they're always the way to go, especially not for Do-it-yourself-ers. If you're going to be inside moving around parts and whatnot, a lot of times a small case will just piss you off (hell, I have the same problem with my full-size case, and it's one of the better designed ones). For normal desktop users they make more sense because [i]they're[/i] not going to be the ones playing with the guts when they want to add something or need it repaired, some repair tech will be.

    I think if you're fed up with your PC taking up all your desk space, a better solution would be investing in a graphical dumb terminal and just use your current PC as a server you throw in your basement or a closet. Sure it's more expensive in the short run, but you'll be able to keep it between anytime you upgrade your system. Plus it'll be smaller and run quieter than any small system you would build yourself. Also, anytime you upgrade you'll be upgrading a cheaper full-size desktop rather than a more expensive "compact" system.
    • Graphic performance becomes a major problem - most people could just run long video cables and/or go wireless on the input devices.
    • Shuttle PCs are very easy to work in, actually. They do a very good job of making them accessable inside.
    • Good thoughts. I agree, while a lot of these smaller boxes look really sweet it seems to come down to the issue of, "is it really practical/necessary?" I mean, I don't have a huge workspace at home but it is certainly sufficient for my primary box, A Dell Dimension 4600. (my other boxes are out of view anyway)

      I think there is a market for small, SILENT boxes, but it is realistically smaller than you'd first think. My girlfriend needs a small, cheap box just to check email and what not. I considered

  • Cool small PC, but (Score:3, Interesting)

    by anactofgod ( 68756 ) on Monday July 26, 2004 @04:29PM (#9805961)
    It'd be nice if someone would take the lead and get rid of the legacy tech that still haunts these boxes. Floppy drive? PS/2 keybaord/mouse con ectors? For reals?

    That being said, this might be worth a look as nice little media-server system to replace a Toshiba laptop that recently died on me.

    ---anactofgod---
    • I didn't read TFA (this is slashdot, right?), but at least with previous Shuttle models the floppy drive was an option, as in you could install it, or use the space for an additional hard drive. As for the PS/2 ports, USB peripherals are more expensive - and personally, as I am considering replacing my aging puter with a SN41G2, the ability to use old gear is a plus.

    • Re:Cool small PC, but (Score:3, Informative)

      by Dr. Mu ( 603661 )
      I just got a Shuttle SB75G2. And, yes, I'm glad it has the PS2 ports, because I am using it with a KVM switch. As to a floppy drive, I got one or those, too, but with built-in slots for CF, SD, and Memory Stick modules. Now that's what I call handy!
    • Visit The Fscking Web Site!

      Most shuttle machines have between 2 and 4 USB ports (1.1 and 2.0), firewire and standard keyboard and PS2 ports, The floppy is optional, you don't want it you don't install one.

      How difficult is that?
  • Back when I had my camaro, I built a nifty computer mp3/music video/misc. media player for my car.

    Shuttle PC in the trunk
    5.6" LCD mounted in the dash
    IR Remote Control to run it, with a touchpad in the center console in case stuff broke.

    It worked great, for the most part. Occasionally had some stability issues with the chipset on the board, but that stuff got fixed later. When I get around to building one for my new car (miata) I probably wont use a shuttle, because its not as small as I want for the app

  • Where is Apple? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by mst76 ( 629405 ) on Monday July 26, 2004 @04:32PM (#9805981)
    I'm sure everybody remembers the Cube [apple-history.com], which flopped in the market, but still enjoys a cult following (much like the Newton). They were one of the pioneers of the SFF PC but have completely withdrawn from this market. They were also one of the pioneers of the one spindle ultra-portable [apple-history.com], but have since left the market for true ultra-portables to PC manufacturers. The 12" PB is nice, but at 4.6lb it's one of the heaviest 12" laptops on the market today. For people who never use the optical drive on the road, lighter is nicer.
    Pitty that Apple currently does not offer products in the catagories I'm most interested in, the SSF PC and the ultra-portable laptop.

  • "This is an X PC..." (Score:5, Funny)

    by SlowMovingTarget ( 550823 ) on Monday July 26, 2004 @04:33PM (#9805995) Homepage

    I like the name...

    This PC can screen save no more.
    This PC kicked the bit bucket...
    It has bought the server farm...
    It is pushing up daisy-wheels...
    This... is an XPC!
    Aww... Come on, you know you were thinking it.
  • Anyone know when the nanode [mini-itx.com] is going to be available?
  • A BTX-inspired chassis design [littlesanime.ru]. I can't wait to see that.
  • Do people really buy a shuttle to fit it with a 3GHZ CPU?
    I mean c'mon, small is nice, quiet is nice. There's only so much you can expect from a box that small. Running the latest and hottest (pun intended) prescott CPU in one is probably stretching it a bit. Or more bluntly: a stupid idea.

    What's next? Someone informing us that a Shuttle Dual Xeon setup will run into thermal issues, too?
    • Do people really buy a shuttle to fit it with a 3GHZ CPU?

      For LAN parties, people want a great looking machine with a Prescott 3.8E (assuming they cannot get, and afford, something more powerful).

    • I have a Shuttle SG51 for gaming. It's about a year old. I run it with a 3.04 ghz P4 and an ATI 9800PRO. I get great performance and have no thermal problems. Since then Shuttle has improved the cooling of their boxen.

    • Re:Who cares? (Score:3, Interesting)

      by MochaMan ( 30021 )
      Do people really buy a shuttle to fit it with a 3GHZ CPU?

      Yep -- I'm a developer of high-end CAD software and I often have to lug a machine to trade shows. The shuttle is about as ideal as they come for this sort of thing, once you stick in a decent graphics card and a heap of memory.

  • Just bought 150 of them! (Score:3, Interesting)

    by leathered ( 780018 ) on Monday July 26, 2004 @05:05PM (#9806245)
    The other week I receieved 30 SN41G2s for the university I work at and I've got another 120 arriving soon. Once you've got used to how they are put together you can get the build time down to less than 25 minutes apiece.

    We used to buy Dells (which I detested from a technicians point of view) but a couple of months ago we bought two Shuttle systems as a one-off. Everyone was so impressed about how quiet, compact and well engineered they were we decided to outfit an entire new building with them. The few man-hours spent on building them is well worth it to get a quality system that the usual supects (Dell, HP etc) can't seem to deliver. A classroom full of Shuttles is noticably quieter than a room full of Dells.

    One thing though, if you are looking for an SN 41G2 then make sure it's a Version 2 (Silent X) model. There's still a lot of Version 1s about which are a bit noisier.
  • I have one of these at home as my server (running Linux, of course). I've never had a single problem with it. My wife has one as her windows workstation at her office (on my recommendation). Finally, I have one of these at my office doubling as a low volume server and a workstation (again, Linux). Even though I use it as my second workstation, it's never stressed.

    In all three cases, I had them configured without a floppy drive. USB drives such as my Laks watch are the way to go!

    These babies have ever
  • I count seven fans inside that thing!


  • Great, great, I YESTERDAY put in an order for an SB75G2!!! And now a whole new shuttle that would be way more fun to play with has come out! Admittedly, this new one is a bit big and I don't want PCIX... but DAMMIT ANYWAY!

    *fume*

    PS I still love shuttles anyway.

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