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Wireless Networking Hardware

Wi-Fi by Rail, Bus or Boat 143

Posted by michael from the 24/7/365 dept.
securitas writes "The New York Times' Glenn Fleishman writes about the growth of 802.11x WiFi wireless Internet access on commuter rail, bus and ferry boat now that it's commonly available in restaurants and coffee shops. The article also has an illustration by Al Granberg of some of the techniques used to achieve ubiquitous WiFi in motion."
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Wi-Fi by Rail, Bus or Boat More

Wi-Fi by Rail, Bus or Boat

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  • Natural extension (Score:5, Interesting)

    by daringone ( 710585 ) on Friday July 09, 2004 @09:31AM (#9651855) Journal
    It's only a natural extension of the hotspots popping up everywhere. Just a matter of time until anywhere with cell phone service will have net service... with the right provider.

  • When will it end (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 09, 2004 @09:31AM (#9651861)
    God I hate the Wi-Fi fad.

    I'll never make my computer vulnerable for attacks by anyone who just happens to drive by with a laptop and a wireless.

    I'm much more interested in 10Gbit ethernet over copper.

    • I wouldn't count on it ending anytime soon.

      Why the paranoia anyway? The worst that is going to happen is someone hacks your WEP and steals your bandwidth, since your PC itself should be secure, in addition to your wireless connection right?

      Right???

    • I'm much more interested in 10Gbit ethernet over copper.

      God, I hate the Internet fad.

      I'll never make my computer vulnerable to attacks by anyone who just happens to have a modem and a telephone line.

  • Don't Forget: Check Those Sources (Score:5, Informative)

    by BenBenBen ( 249969 ) on Friday July 09, 2004 @09:32AM (#9651864)
    From El Reg:
    However the Times today draws on its long history of investigative journalism [theregister.co.uk], and has finally discovered a Wi-Fi user! He's a commuter using a trial on the Altamont Express train service in Northern California.

    In a report penned by freelance Wi-Fi evangelist and weblogger Glenn Fleishman, we discover that Terry Dickson (for it is he) avoids "sites laden with graphics that are slow to load, concentrating on work involving relatively small text files and e-mail," on balance, his life had "changed for the better" - which is good news for the whole Dickson family.

    The Times discloses that the name of this Wi-Fi user was provided by the trial operator, PointShot. It doesn't mention that PointShot's experiment is funded by Intel, who we learn in the article is also Dickson's employer. Intel's capital fund has helped to sponsor a number of Wi-Fi trials in North America and Canada.

    Now it may be pure coincidence that the only "independent" member of the public the Times could find was an employee of the experiment's sponsor. It may be the case that only Intel employees use Wi-Fi, or it may not. We simply don't know. But we do think he could be a teeny bit more enthusiastic about it.

    • Re:Don't Forget: Check Those Sources (Score:4, Interesting)

      by sapbasisnerd ( 729448 ) on Friday July 09, 2004 @09:54AM (#9652080)
      Well I'm another Wi-Fi on the train user, somewhat irregularly but I can say at least on the PointShot trial that runs on VIA rail between Toronto and Montreal there is no need to limit oneself to "small text files and e-mail" the performance varies as you roll but it seemed to be better than dialup at all times.
      • the performance varies as you roll but it seemed to be better than dialup at all times.

        I'm curious: around what speed?

        It's not hard being better than 5k/sec but if the average is 60k/sec with Spikes at 600k/sec and lows at 10k/sec, I say it's a FAR better service than dial-up...

        Being a Montrealer myself (Hell I even work for the city this summer as a part-time job) I may have to use that train in the "near" future... and a first hand experience is far more interesting than any type of "marketing-e
        • I didn't measure the speeds and they did vary wildly, so all I have to go on is a gut feel that it was usably fast. Keep in mind that it is still a trial, almost ended once but now extended "until further notice" and it is only available on the VIA express trains between Toronto and Montreal (first train in the AM and 5PM) the milk run trains do not have this.
      • between Toronto and Montreal ... the performance varies as you roll but it seemed to be better than dialup at all times

        Especially since you can leave that 542.75 km [mapquest.com] extension cord at home.

    • Andrew Orlowski writes in the best tradition of tabloid journalism: entertaining, poorly researched, full of factual errors. I've written my response to his article [wifinetnews.com] on Wi-Fi Networking News. Basically, Terry Dickman (not Dickson as Orlowski writes) is just this guy who likes the service. Intel is not funding PointShot or ACE's project.

  • Just in case the decide to pull the reg crap (Score:4, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 09, 2004 @09:32AM (#9651869)
    And posting as AC just for the anti-whores:

    Destination Wi-Fi, by Rail, Bus or Boat
    By GLENN FLEISHMAN

    Published: July 8, 2004

    BOARD THE KLICKITAT,

    on the Admiralty Inlet, Wash.

    THE Klickitat, a 1927 steel ferry boat plying waters between a 19th-century port and an island harbor, may seem a quaint way to travel - and an unlikely place to get work done. But it may be headed for a new frontier in Internet access for commuters.

    The ship is the test bed for a plan to offer high-speed wireless Internet access on most Washington State ferry runs, serving tens of thousands of regular commuters.

    Through a federal grant, the ferry system will roll out an expanded test of the Internet service this summer and fall on seven ships serving the three busiest runs, covering 50 percent of the system's ridership, or about 12 million passenger trips a year. When the first of those routes joins the trial, the effort will become the largest commuter Internet experiment ever.

    As such experiments gather momentum, ready access to e-mail and the Web may become increasingly common on the way to and from the office.

    In the United States, nearly six million people commute daily by public transportation, according to the Department of Transportation. Few operators offer wireless Internet access in their stations and terminals - much less on board - even though it is now routinely found in many airports, hotels and coffee shops. But trials and planning are under way in several countries to determine the technical feasibility of offering mobile Internet access, and whether commuters will ultimately pay for the privilege.

    Providing Internet access on vessels and vehicles is not as simple as adding it to a fixed venue, like a restaurant or even a convention center. Boats, buses and trains have metal skins or hulls that block wireless signals. They move, often at average speeds of 20 to 100 miles per hour, requiring a system that can rapidly and seamlessly hand off a signal. And they could have large numbers of simultaneous users, many of whom are already working on laptops during the voyage.

    Jim Long, director of information technology for the Washington State ferry system, said that boats on the Bainbridge Island-to-Seattle run carry 2,600 passengers during each rush-hour trip. Based on his observation of commuter work habits, he said, "you could have upwards of 300 to 400 at any one time trying to access the Internet - those are concurrent users."

    Airlines, too, are looking at making Wi-Fi connections available to passengers, and face some of the same challenges. Two competing services, Connexion by Boeing and Tenzing, provide Internet access (at $10 to $30 per flight) by connecting to satellites relaying service from the ground. But the commuter projects offer the potential to become part of a daily routine, and perhaps an incentive for some people to abandon commuting by car.

    The companies working on commuter service have taken various approaches: relying on a combination of cellular towers and satellite data links, erecting dedicated antennas in a line of sight or at points along the route, or limiting service just to terminals or stations on either end of a run.

    The Washington State ferry test is one of several in the United States and abroad. Internet access on rail was inaugurated early last year on a route between Sweden and Denmark, and regular service is beginning on certain train lines in Britain, including the Great North Eastern Railway linking London with much of England and Scotland (free for first-class passengers, about $9 an hour for others). There are also plans to test an Internet service for municipal bus riders in Paris.

    A Canadian company, PointShot Wireless, is providing Internet service for trials on two rail lines in Northern California and another in Canada. So far, the PointShot tests, like the Washington State ferry project, are free - beyond the user's investment of $50 or so to equip a laptop with a W
    • ... and perhaps an incentive for some people to abandon commuting by car.


      So, Wi-Fi would cause more people to use public transport and thus help to copy with traffic jams?

      • So, Wi-Fi would cause more people to use public transport and thus help to copy with traffic jams?

        Perhaps. It's something to make you a bit more productive during your commute. Living in Southern California I am very familiar with how a commute by car just eats into your day. Many people in this area spend 3-4 hours commuting every day. That is pure wasted time when you are alone in your car.

        Now if you could be fully productive -- or even just entertained -- during your commute, maybe you'll make

  • social implications (Score:5, Insightful)

    by shackma2 ( 685062 ) on Friday July 09, 2004 @09:34AM (#9651881)
    I wonder what the social implications of the growth of WIFI are. Coffee shops and cafes and trains used to be a place where people would sometimes sit alone, be bored, and sometimes start talking and meeting people. Now with WIFI, you'll be able to work whereever you go, could this have any sociological effect?

    • Re:social implications (Score:5, Insightful)

      by arieswind ( 789699 ) * on Friday July 09, 2004 @09:37AM (#9651912) Homepage
      Obviously, employers will be able to squeeze more working time out of their employees, giving them even less of a chance for a social life. Soon all they need is cars that drive themselves, and there won't be a waking moment where employees can't be working. Thank you capitalism
      • If the combination of trains (heavy and light rail) and buses that I spend 4 hours a day on had Wi-Fi, I could actually:

        1. Reduce my work day by 4 hours, allowing for the commute time to be used productively and spending less time in the office

        or

        2. Add 4 billable hours to my timesheet if I am a contract developer with VPN access (which I am).

      • Re:social implications (Score:5, Insightful)

        by nomadicGeek ( 453231 ) * on Friday July 09, 2004 @10:22AM (#9652351)
        Thanks to capitalism there isn't any obligation to be an employee. You can always shop the market for a better employer or better yet, employ yourself.

        The people that I know who have developed marketable skills set their own hours and have more opportunities than they have the time to pursue. Thank you capitalism.

        Quit acting like you don't have any choice in the matter.
      • The last time I was in a coffee shop, there was only one person on a computer, and that person looked like a student just writing a report.

        So, no, wireless internet doesn't necessarly mean an expansion of where you can do your work, you can blame that on the notebook computer.
    • I wonder what the social implications of the growth of WIFI are. Coffee shops and cafes and trains used to be a place where people would sometimes sit alone, be bored, and sometimes start talking and meeting people. Now with WIFI, you'll be able to work whereever you go, could this have any sociological effect?

      Now you'll have to ignore idiots in real life and online simultaneously.

    • Re:social implications (Score:4, Interesting)

      by GuyinVA ( 707456 ) on Friday July 09, 2004 @09:47AM (#9652016)
      Interesting point. I think people are relying too much on e-mail and IM to communicate. Now with Wi-Fi everywhere, people will be sitting alone tapping on their keyboard everywhere. On top of that, people are working longer hours, and IMO getting less work done. I have yet to meet a person who has actually gotten any real work done sitting at a coffee shop. I know, I know, you work all the time in coffee shops, but I haven't met you yet... Why must we now have to introduce another way of distraction to places where people are accustomed to relaxing?..

      What about the commuter that wants to take a nap on the train after a hard day's work. Does he now have to st there listening to you tap on the keyboard as you vainly try to finish an Excel speadsheet.

      As a whole, i think it's not a great thing that Wi-Fi is everywhere.

      • What about the commuter that wants to take a nap on the train after a hard day's work. Does he now have to st there listening to you tap on the keyboard as you vainly try to finish an Excel speadsheet.

        So what train do you ride on that is quieter than the sound of typing on a keyboard? Can this really be heard over the noise of the train itself? I've only ridding trains in Chicago and DC and they we're both really noisy, no way you could hear a keyboard there!

      • On top of that, people are working longer hours, and IMO getting less work done.

        That's because they're posting on /. during working hours.

      • Re:social implications (Score:1, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward
        What about the commuter that wants to take a nap on the train after a hard day's work. Does he now have to st there listening to you tap on the keyboard as you vainly try to finish an Excel speadsheet.

        They can work on Excel Spreadsheets without a WiFi connection, could for years now. None of the typing ever bothered you before? Besides most people will probably browse the web, which is mainly silent reading broken by the occasional mouse click...

      • ... people are working longer hours, and IMO getting less work done. I have yet to meet a person who has actually gotten any real work done sitting at a coffee shop.

        Maybe you don't get out much. Or maybe such places are confined to Silicon Valley. But I work a lot from a coffee shop (Dana Street Roasting Co, Mountain View, California) and I get real work done. The only other place I work is at home.

        I think people are relying too much on e-mail and IM to communicate. Now with Wi-Fi everywhere, peo

      • In New York, where many finance related jobs are paid on a fee split basis, there is quite an impetus to work all the time as there is a direct relationship between how much you work and how much you earn.

        When it comes to salaried positions which are more common elsewhere in the country, working longer hours probably doesn't seem as beneficial.

        Further, the social aspect is due to the fact the majority of people who are working these long hours are in their twenties... Let's face it, that's when you have

    • Now with WIFI, you'll be able to work whereever you go, could this have any sociological effect?

      It will have an effect; what kind is unclear.

      Others have already mentionned the possibility of finding gaming buddies and sharing music folders with people in your immediate vicinity/AP. With location-aware matchmaking services, you might end up chatting with the cute blonde that's also looking for some lovin'- OK, ok, this is /., but still, a guy can fantasize, no?

      • you might end up chatting with the cute blonde that's also looking for some lovin'- OK, ok, this is /., but still, a guy can fantasize, no?

        Hey, that works out great because the cute blonde looking for some lovin' is probably a guy too! ;)
    • Nah, cell phones took care of this problem a long time ago. Cell phones are good at helping people keep in touch with the people they are away from but also make them less in touch with the people they are around. Most people who are alone and bored in a public place are more likely to whip out their cell and bug a friend than to strike up a conversation with a stranger.
    • I'd say none. Nothing like billing hours that have nothing to do with work while sitting at home or in a coffee shop.

      Full time telecommuters break this rule, but that's only because they only work that way. The part timers ("I think I'll work from home today.") really don't do well.

    • When I'm not working, I spend a lot of time on the internet, playing. Yes, believe it or not, the internet can be used for entertainment purposes. Some may even call slashdot entertaining.

      I think of wifi+laptop in a cafe (or similar location) as a variation of sitting there with a book. Sometimes, you want to get out of the house, sip/munch on something, and amuse yourself. Books do this well, as can laptops.

  • Security (Score:2, Interesting)

    by GICodeWarrior ( 794483 )
    Hopefully widespread adoption of WiFi services fuels the market for wireless network security. I know somebody who can't use his WAP because his neighbors keep hacking his encryption.

    • Re:Security (Score:5, Insightful)

      by daringone ( 710585 ) on Friday July 09, 2004 @09:40AM (#9651946) Journal
      Hopefully widespread adoption of WiFi services fuels the market for wireless network security. I know somebody who can't use his WAP because his neighbors keep hacking his encryption.
      Well, it's not that hard when your settings are:

      SSID: linksys
      Broadcast SSID?: Yes
      Wireless security enabled?: No

      I don't think it's so much the need for more security as it is the need to get people to actually use the security that's already there. I know of no wardrivers (personally) that even bother with an access point that doesn't broadcast it's SSID, is not the default SSID, and has WEP enabled. They'll find someone with the above configuration and wreak havoc.

      • Re:Security (Score:2, Interesting)

        by GICodeWarrior ( 794483 )
        He had his ssid changed, wasn't broadcasting it, had MAC filtering on, and had WEP enabled. In three days his neighbors had hacked it and were running his connection full throttle. Although I do agree more people should use the security that is already there, if everyone did people (wardrivers/neighbors) would more often take the time to break the WEP.
        • Assuming it's a Linksys router, the latest firmware update allows for WPA. It seems to be a bit of a pain to set up, but it should provide a bit more security.
        • He had his ssid changed, wasn't broadcasting it, had MAC filtering on, and had WEP enabled. In three days his neighbors had hacked it and were running his connection full throttle.

          Personally, I'd have a talk with the neighbors and tell them the next time they did it, I would be calling the police.

      • Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)

        by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Friday July 09, 2004 @09:49AM (#9652034)
        Comment removed based on user account deletion
        • Do you have data about that?
          I have my own access point with 128 bits keys and I would hate if one day was sufficient to break it, even when no weak IV packets are sent.
          • Hi, you might want to look into Weplab [netstumbler.org]. It uses optimizations not present in airsnort/dwepcrack to attempt to crack keys using packets with not only the traditional weak IVs.
        • WEP is a joke. Get a Linksys WRT54G or simmilarly upgradeable router, upgrade the firmware to a freely available Linux, and block all unassociated IPSec traffic at the router level. Then use IPSec for your network.

          That, or, run an IPSec firewall between your existing WAP and your internet connection, and do the same thing I just outlined. SUre, they'll be able to hack your WEP keys, but they won't bother when they discover the can't access the internet or even get off of the router.
          • I agree, a VPN would solve this problem.

            But what might be cheaper is to simply talk to the neighbors. More likely than not it's a simple matter of them telling their kid to knock it off, and quit assuming nobody has noticed what he's doing.

  • Um... (Score:1, Interesting)

    by IWantMyNickBack ( 791167 )
    Can the hotspots also get data signals from, say, other stationary hotspots or a data wire implanted in the tracks?
  • Okay, so you have your wireless access point on the bus / train. How does that uplink to the larger network?

  • games (Score:2, Interesting)

    by shackma2 ( 685062 )
    newb question: is wifi good enough to play games on? With the new generation of high power laptops, pretty soon we could be having lan parties anywhere we go.
    • 802.11g supports bandwidth up to 54 Mbps. Faster than any residential broadband connection I've ever seen :)

      • Re:games (Score:3, Informative)

        by TopShelf ( 92521 )
        But isn't there an extra lag involved with WiFi? Throughput is one thing, lag another...
        • But isn't there an extra lag involved with WiFi? Throughput is one thing, lag another...

          I currently live in an apartment complex that provides internet service via a wireless network throughout the complex. In general, my ping has seemed about as good as anyone elses on the servers I have played on. Occasionally I will get some big lag spikes although I can't say for sure if it is me, the server, or somewhere in between.

    • Re:games (Score:2, Funny)

      by Ba3r ( 720309 )
      and then we won't even need to be in reality any more!

      But seriously, i imagine we will have ubiquitous (broadband is such a relative term.. broadband 5 years ago is slooooow now) connections everywhere capable of handling all the basic media (phone, video) and replacing our old fashioned telephone, tv, and data connections.

      In fact, I am selling Universal Wireless Communications futures, and if you buy 100 now, I promise to get you a copy of Doom 4! If you buy 1000 shares, a Hextium II is yours. And fo
    • I play all my games via a wireless 802.11g connection, and I have no problems. I'm also using WPA pre-shared key using TKIP. So security and gaming can be done!
  • I like the jumping from cell to cell -- but I would be worried that any open connections I had would be broken every time the train switched cells.

    I don't know too much about network design, but would it be possible to design the system so that you wouldn't lose AIM connections if the thing switched cells? If you put all the cells along a given line behind one NAT gateway and hand out 10.x.x.x/8 addresses, that should be easily enough for everyone who rides the train to get a unique IP for the duration of
    • I'm not a networking expert either, but to the best of my knowledge this is usually done with IP tunnelling. You don't have to have any coordination between AP's - each of them can have its own subnet or something. To connect, you log in and set up a tunnel to the gateway, which gives you another IP address with Internet access. When you switch cells, your actual wireless interface gets a new IP address, your tunnel re-authenticates and you're back online with maybe a few dropped packets, but no interrupted
  • The illustration shows that when the train goes under a tunnel, there might be disruptions in service since the data signal may not be passed. It further suggests that frequently used web pages can be stored or cached, perhaps on a server on-board, and email sending can be held till the service is restored.

    So then:
    1. Will there be servers on board ?
    2. Looks like it will not be a fully connected service then. Still better than nothing I suppose
    • The UK has numerous train-borne WiFi servuices, which work through a combination of satellite uplink and GPRS connections through tunnels.
    • From the diagram, it would seem the commuter train has in-car WiFi repeaters connected to a larger network wirelessly, which breaks in tunnels. The train is always in contact with a pair of "wires" - i.e. the rails - which on many train systems already carry data (that is, information for in-cab signaling systms). Is there a technical limitation which keeps the rails from being a suitable medium for high-speed data access suitable to feed to the in-car access point? Tunnels wouldn't interrupt the service.
    • Howdy, I wrote the article in question. There are servers on board, and PointShot can configure behavior depending on what the customer (the train line) wants. It's definitely live, but it uses caching to cover the bumps and reduce download time for frequently retrieved pages. Since the service is regional, everyone might, for instance, read the San Francisco newspaper online.

  • This is cool stuff. (Score:4, Interesting)

    by afidel ( 530433 ) on Friday July 09, 2004 @09:40AM (#9651947)
    I know that the Japanese national railroad was working with Cisco to do WiFi a couple years ago. It was a real engineering challenge because the access points had to do handoff and authentication quickly enough to keep the trains computers on the network (this was initially for secure communications with computer systems on the train, commuter access was to come later). When your cells are only a couple hundred meters across and the train is moving at 300+ kmph.

  • Intersting WiFi thing about busses... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by SoCalChris ( 573049 ) on Friday July 09, 2004 @09:44AM (#9651987) Journal
    I work for a relatively small public transit company in So Cal. All of our busses are already 802.11b enabled. As soon as they pull into the yard, they connect to an FTP server, and send reports containing the fare information, passenger data, and other things. It also updates the automated stop announcements, and anything else that we need to update.

    As of now, the 802.11b isn't accessible to the public, but we're looking into making it available.

  • it's a shame (Score:3, Funny)

    by Mantorp ( 142371 ) <mantorp 'funny A' gmail.com> on Friday July 09, 2004 @09:45AM (#9651989) Homepage Journal
    no places left to slack off soon, no more having a few drinks on the plane while watching the crappy movie, no reading the paper or catching some shuteye on the train. Do people really want to work everywhere?

    Like I wouldn't just read slashdot during my whole commute anyway, who am I kidding?

    • People who say things like that baffle me. It's like the people who won't carry a cell phone because they don't want to be bothered-- while simultaneously failing to realize that you aren't compelled to answer it, or even to have it turned on.

      WiFi everywhere is handy. But just because I can get signal everywhere doesn't mean I'm somehow compelled to work. Hell, you don't even have to be working when you USE the WiFi. I prefer to waste a bunch of time on slashdot.
      • I, too, am completely baffled by this association that Americans make between the Internet and work. First of all, how does having internet access while you're travelling mean that your employer can get more work out of you. Many peoples work involves interaction with people. Having a computer on hand with internet access will not facilitate them in working while they are travelling.

        Even if you have a job where most of your work involves sitting infront of a computer screen, how will having internet access
  • Airlines, too, are looking at making Wi-Fi connections available to passengers, and face some of the same challenges. Two competing services, Connexion by Boeing and Tenzing, provide Internet access (at $10 to $30 per flight) by connecting to satellites relaying service from the ground

    I thought cell phones are banned on flights fearing they might intervene with the flight-to-groundstation signalling

    Wouldn't such problems exist with wifi?

    • Re:WiFi in Air (Score:4, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 09, 2004 @10:05AM (#9652183)
      I thought cell phones are banned on flights fearing they might intervene with the flight-to-groundstation signalling

      Wouldn't such problems exist with wifi?

      No, you see all of that money being siphoned out of the traveler's pocket forms a magic faraday cage so that their paid-for radio waves don't cause interference.

      Them that pays, gets.
      • Actually no. Air traffic operates on frequencies in the VHF spectrum, cell phones are in the mid UHF band. Not much chance of HIGHER frequency devices inteferring with LOWER frequency ones since generation of SUBharmonics is very limited. The inverse is a problem though.
        • Not much chance of HIGHER frequency devices inteferring with LOWER frequency ones since generation of SUBharmonics is very limited.

          Unless the cellphone's IF stage generates harmonics that land in the middle of the aircraft band (which ranges from ~100 MHz to ~250 MHz, with at least two band allocations.

          I sometimes wonder if the real problem is the UHF signal from the cell phone confuses the VHF radio in the airplane, because it wasn't designed to account for higher frequency signals within the confines

    • Re:WiFi in Air (Score:3, Informative)

      by Enry ( 630 )
      I heard (from a pilot, but it was 1995 when he told me this) that you can't use cell phones because you would be in range of a number of cell towers at the same time, which would mess up either your cell phone or the towers. My guess is that problem has been solved by now.

      I also remember at the time having a cell phone sitting next to a pair of powered speakers. A 1/2 second before the phone would ring, the speakers would shut off. I'm not sure what kind of EM emission would cause it, but I don't think

      • cell phone interference (Score:3, Informative)

        by sulli ( 195030 ) *
        Put a Nokia TDMA phone on your CRT monitor and call the number. You'll see the screen vibrate and distort just before it starts to ring. There's definitely some interference there.

      • I heard (from a pilot, but it was 1995 when he told me this) that you can't use cell phones because you would be in range of a number of cell towers at the same time, which would mess up either your cell phone or the towers.

        Right. See 47CFR22.925 [gpo.gov].

        My guess is that problem has been solved by now.

        Many towers on the ground. Cell phone in air above many of them. How, exactly, can that possibly be solved?

        • Many towers on the ground. Cell phone in air above many of them. How, exactly, can that possibly be solved?

          Don't towers use some form of arbitration to figure out passing off a call from one tower to another? The same should apply here. BTW, the web site you gave only says that cell phone use is prohibited (we knew that already), but not why.
          • Don't towers use some form of arbitration to figure out passing off a call from one tower to another?

            Yes, they do. But the system capacity depends on being able to reuse the same frequency in non-adjacent cells, and a cell phone above them blocks all cells. The problem gets worse when you cross a system boundary, where the two systems don't coordinate with each other beyond the boundary (if at all).

            There are areas where people can be above the cell towers, without flying -- think tall buildings and m

          • Don't towers use some form of arbitration to figure out passing off a call from one tower to another?

            Yes, based on signal strength which is proportional to distance. But being above towers means that a phone is equidistant from a significant number of them. Towers aren't designed to handle that (because it's can't possibly happen in 2D).

            ... the web site you gave only says that cell phone use is prohibited (we knew that already), but not why.

            Of course not: it's the CFR. (No code of laws says why

    • My guess is that spread spectrum techniques would pose a much lower risk of interfering with airline navigation. Cell phones are banned outright because if you said "Alltel, Sprint and Verizon only" [CDMA carriers], non-techie people (especially their competitors' marketeers) would not understand why and their bitching would induce the flight attendants to terrorism.

  • Great? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Dibson ( 723948 ) on Friday July 09, 2004 @09:48AM (#9652028)

    While I think Wi-Fi is really exciting - I just got an iBook with an airport extreme card - this is getting to be a bit much. People who carry laptops with them to/from work while commuting are probably at work on the computer all day. Now they're going to travel and use the internet? And then get home to their broadband connection and check their email?

    Internet connectivity blanketed everywhere would be amazing. The convenience is great, but we need downtime and to interact with other people. If you're looking to occupy yourself on the train say hi to the person next to you. A person is an incredible thing - they probably have all sorts of stories that you can hear from no one else.

    Maybe no one cares about that. But there are so many other issues. Imagine the security problems that come out of this. And what kind of costs is going to incur on the user? Advertising? By the minute? And trouble from illegal activity happening through these AP? It'd be great if it works out, but I think this is some time away.

    • Re:Great? (Score:2, Informative)

      by CompWerks ( 684874 )
      Speaking of security...

      Take a look at this story:

      Wi-fi hopper guilty of cyber-extortion [securityfocus.com]

    • Re:Great? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by ajlitt ( 19055 )
      Great, you can make exactly the same argument about the proliferation of small, cheap portable phones. The thing is, some people do now talk on the phone in public, but this hasn't changed the dynamics of family and socialization for the worse. In fact, it's helped keep people closer in touch by allowing people to leave the house / office and live life without being tethered to a desk for fear of missing a call.

      The same is possible with the expansion of WiFi coverage. Imagine someone being able to go on

      • The dynamics of family and socialization have *definitely* changed for those with cell phones. Things are better - helping people keep in touch, as you mentioned - but also for the worse.

        One-on-one conversations with friends of mine are often disrupted by a cell phone ring. And that's not too bad, but there people who find it acceptable to start conversations on the phone in that situation. It's irritating. I have been guilty of it as well, but I'm trying not to.

        My brother at the dinner table just p

      • The thing is, some people do now talk on the phone in public, but this hasn't changed the dynamics of family and socialization for the worse.
        Speak for yourself! In my experience pretty women at the grocery store usually get cell phone calls just as I approach them. And somehow they always know to grab their phones just a moment before the first ring!
    • Have you ever been on a NYC commuter rail traing (aka metro north) everybody that can is sleeping the rest are reading etc. There are a few talkative people but they are allmost allways a group travaling to the city for a day out not a commuter. Yes sometimes the person next tto you will talk but it's rare. WiFi on the commute would provide access to read news web sites, do research take care of a lot of things (think about net banking) and general give them more time to be at home with people they care
  • they are after me! they are every where!.......

  • GPRS for tunnels (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Albanach ( 527650 ) on Friday July 09, 2004 @09:52AM (#9652065) Homepage
    Here in the UK we have Wi-Fi deployment now operating on the East Coast rail line. Rather than caching data in tunnels, the train switches to GPRS and is supposed to maintain its connection to the net using the mobile phone networks which have had the foresight to start providing coverage through tunnels on main railway lines.

  • Canada ViaRail access (Score:5, Interesting)

    by strudeau ( 96760 ) on Friday July 09, 2004 @10:13AM (#9652259) Homepage
    A Canadian company, PointShot Wireless, is providing Internet service for trials on two rail lines in Northern California and another in Canada. So far, the PointShot tests, like the Washington State ferry project, are free ...
    I'm planning a September trip via rail (pun [viarail.ca]!) in September. It looks like the free wifi [viarail.ca] is only available to passengers in the Via-1 (i.e., first class) cars, which I'm too cheap to pay for (especially when a "Comfort" class (i.e., coach) CorridorPass is almost 1/3 the price). Anyone know if you can pick up a signal if you're close enough to a "first class" car? =)

    • Re:Canada ViaRail access (Score:2, Informative)

      by kapella ( 3578 )
      Dunno about Via Rail, but you can certainly access the hotspots in Air Canada's premium lounges at Trudeau Airport in Montreal from nearby gate waiting areas...
  • I don't know about you, but unless those trains in the diagram aren't moving, I would not like to be on one of them because they are just too close for comfort.

  • the five percent nation of nipple clamps (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 09, 2004 @10:18AM (#9652303)
    My favorite part of the article:

    In the United States, nearly six million people commute daily by public transportation, according to the Department of Transportation.

    With an estimated population of 293,027,571 in July 2004 (from the cia world factbook)that means around 98% of the united states doesn't use public transportation.

    Anyone else have an estimate for some place in Europe? Denmark maybe?

  • Missing Option: Plane (Score:4, Interesting)

    by mofochickamo ( 658514 ) on Friday July 09, 2004 @10:34AM (#9652505) Homepage Journal
    Lufthansa also offers wireless access [lufthansa.com] on some of their flights. I flew from Munich to Los Angeles two weeks ago and used it. They have a free portal you can use or complete Internet access for $30 (which was too much for me to pay).
  • I remember asking my bosses at the ISPs I worked at about wireless telecommunications as an alternative to dialup. One of 'em was a HAM, and he talked about 2400bps TNCs. I pointed to some of the old Breezecom equipment which was new at the time.

    They both told me I should go back to stringing phone lines into the modem-pool.

    I welcome our new wireless overlords.

  • dont forget... (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Lord Haha ( 753617 )
    Airports, alot of them are now providing net access in the terminal, notable ones I can think of off hand:
    - Pierre Elliot Trudeau (formally Dorval) in Montreal
    - Dulles in Washington DC (mind you it seems to be iffy in parts of the airport)

    Problem though I have found with alot of these connections is that many seem to be very picky about the cards you use to connect up to them. While at home I can easily run a Dlink Card and Linksys Router; but I have found that at the airports my connection drops alot more
  • is just convincing Americans to use public transport. That is, of course, we could convince the state and federal governments to create more effective public transport.
    • I'd say the most depressing fact I learned from researching this article is that while 6 million people commute via public transportation each day, and a few million walk or bike into work, 91.2 percent of commuters commute part or all of the way by car (reference [bts.gov]), or about 50 million people a day in a car. 7 percent of commuters use a combination of modes overlapping with the public transportation statistic or about 4 million of the 6 million who use public transportation each day.

  • Rail Travel is Back? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Jodka ( 520060 ) on Friday July 09, 2004 @01:11PM (#9654387)
    Yay! Maybe these telecommunications/rail synergies will spur a resurgence of rail transport in the US. As measered in tons per mile per dollar, rail travel is by far the most efficient form of transport. Of course, there are other perfectly legitimate concerns such as connectivity (trains don't go everywhere that cars do), convenience (you have to synchronize your schedule to the train), and speed (jet planes are faster) which have made rail travel a modern loser in the United States. Well those things, and also brutal treatment by government.

    But I am wondering if telecommunications can help to mitigate some of the more significant shortcommings of rail. For one thing, if you can make productive use of your time on the train, by telecommuting while you are commuting, that should make a big difference in deciding whether to drive or train. Secondly, back in the old days, if you did not live in a city, then your fancy store bought goods were purchased mail-order from the Sears catalog and shipped to you rail freight. People prefer to see goods for themselves, which might be why shopping malls and Wal-Marts litter the countryside now. However, the trend seems to be moving back to remote purchasing because you can now see the goods over the web. So does this mean that we can move back rail freight also, at least for shipment between regional hubs, if not door-to-door?

    Another thing is, with automated inventory, it should be possible to track rail packages in transit to within a few meters. So no "it's on a train somewhere" answers when you ask about your package. If the packaging contains RFID tags, and the train has internet access and GPS, then it should be a matter of software to glue that all together and give me live reports over the web of where my package is. Its true that this is not the same thing as speedy transport, but it is predicatability. Speed and predictability both help solve the same problem, which is planning. You can achieve just-in-time delivery by fast transport, but in some cases you could use slower transport and earlier ordering if you also have predictable delivery.

  • Wi-Fi on Trains (Score:2, Informative)

    by dailywireless ( 624587 )

    DailyWireless [dailywireless.org] reviews the technology of WiFi Trains [dailywireless.org]:

    The small Possio AB [dailywireless.org], a Linux-based access point, can provide local WiFi and connect to the backbone using 3G (EV-DO) mobile backbones for a couple hundred dollars.

    Perhaps a load-balancing router would help. The Xincom - XC-DPG402 [xincom.com] ($150 [tigerdirect.ca]) a 4-Port 10/100Mbps Twin WAN Router can combine two different backbones into one. P

    Bob Cringeley uses the Xincom box [pbs.org]. It works with his Vonage (VoIP) adapters, too. That's how WiFi on Trains [dailywireless.org] provide constant connecti

  • GNER trains in the UK (Score:3, Interesting)

    by rapiddescent ( 572442 ) on Friday July 09, 2004 @01:44PM (#9654686)
    The Great North Eastern Railway that runs high speed trains between London and Edinburgh has WiFi [gnermobileoffice.co.uk] on its trains for first and second class passengers. It uses a combination of GSM mobile relays and a satelite uplink to provide internet connectivity for passengers.

    I ran kismet [kismetwireless.net] on a recent train journey and spotted the obvious Ap's called "train" on channels 1 and 6. A few passengers had left their centrino's on adhoc mode and I also picked up quite a few AP's as the train slowed for stations.

    The interesting reason for this post is that they have handheld machines with WiFi to sell tickets and to take payment the till at the bar... for credit card authorisation.... arg.

    I travel regularly on the train and the internet access doesn't always work. The train staff don't have a clue about the technology or how to make it work. The Ap's are poorly configured and I guess are hard to manage because they are always on the move!

    rd

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