U.S. Government Sometimes Jams Keyless Car Locks? 349
PizzaFace writes "The Washington Post reports that in certain towns (generally near military bases), on certain days (such as the day an aircraft carrier returns to port), keyless car entry systems and remote garage door openers mysteriously fail. While some frustrated motorists blame aliens, the FCC says the jammed frequencies belong to the U.S. military. The good ol' Post even tracks down a government contractor who all-but-confirms the source of the interference."
fp (Score:5, Funny)
[JAMMED]
i knew this was going to happen (Score:3)
Re:i knew this was going to happen (Score:5, Informative)
For an excellent example, hams were in the last couple years authorized to operate on the 60m band. That probably means nothing to most people, but it's a specific band that is used by amateurs in other countries, with its own unique propagation characteristics. However, amateurs, who generally get the run of whatever band they're allowed, are limited to one particular operation mode (upper sideband) on five channels, one of which is shared with the UK making international contact on that band possible. The reason for the limitation: the primary users on that band are military and emergency-related, they use upper sideband on those frequencies, and they need to be able to clear the channel for their own use, so they have to be able to talk to other users. (It's an annoyance to hams, who are used to being able to operate any mode they wish, but c'est la vie.)
What looks like the case here is that the remote systems are designed to operate under Part 15 rules, which govern general unlicensed transmission. They're the same rules under which a community low power AM station can broadcast, and are subject to the same terms. In this case, it was an unfortunate choice for car manufacturers, because the frequency chosen is apparently used for certain FCC-allocated classified purposes. Oh well.
This might explain why (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:This might explain why (Score:5, Informative)
My buddy has the exciter from a shipboard radar as his "Ham Radio" rig. This item generates 1000W CW and about 100 KW in pulse mode, which is what the radars use. It has 4 sections that each handle 1/4 of the band from 10 Khz to 1 GHz. That was then fed to a 10KW Power Amplifier and out. Just the exciter part sits in 3, 6-foot rack cabinets!
The average pulse power in the radars is around 100,000 Watts, and can be pumped up several orders of magnitude to "burn through" jamming if necessary (peak pulse power levels around 1 GWatt!) That field is being constantly swept around the area looking for threats using phased array panels, much faster than the old "Battlezone" radars, so the RF field is effectively everywhere.
Key fobs, RF remotes and Garage door openers are using the 330 Mhz junk band and are right in the middle of the Military A-Band. Doh! Unfortunately, they are also Part 15 users of the spectrum there, and are secondary users of those frequencies - they must not interfere and must accept any interference they experience. Double Doh!!
Re:This might explain why (Score:5, Informative)
We had rock bands come to us (near a Canadian base).
About 3-4 miles from the hotel was a NORAD RADAR. The pulse from the RADAR would manifest itself as a "BZZT" in the band's amplifiers (If was funny seeing the band try to locate the source.....). Heck, you could hear it on your car radio.
Big wattage is NO joke. The spill-over into other freqiencies is a fact of life (anyone with a CB will know it as cross-talk).
Re:This might explain why (Score:4, Funny)
Re:This might explain why (Score:5, Informative)
Re:This might explain why (Score:5, Informative)
Aircraft carriers have a good deal more power than one would think, and certainly more than a Tico, which is about medium size. One thing to note is that there is no "Medium" size for Navy ships, there are small guys, and big guys. CVN, LHD and LHA are going to have more power because they are bigger...the LHD I served on had 5 primary generators rated at 2500kW a piece, plus another 2 backups at 2000kW each. LHAs are similar, but CVNs have even more, mainly because they have fuel to burn, being nuclear.
Oddly, in the radar category, its only the smaller ships in the Cruiser Destroyer community that have phased array radars, which have higher output than those found on other ships. On carriers, the primary high output radar is the SPS-48E (a rotating radar, as all are, with the exception of the SPY-1 series), and has such power because it is an Air Search radar that scans in 3-D. There are ranges at which we are required to turn off our radars in vicinity of land, but this is soley at the attentiveness of the watchstander, and we frequently got reports during Operation Iraqi Freedom thaty our 48E was jamming the airport radars in Kuwait, and we were requested to lower the power output.
Anyway, a carrier pulling into town running a 48E could certainly jam such devices, but more frequently we get reports that devices start *operating* without warning (garage doors opening, etc.) Certainly you'd see these things more often if you worked on a Naval Base, since lots of ships tend to pull in and out there.
Re:This might explain why (Score:5, Funny)
Re:must accept? (Score:4, Funny)
In other words, "If you don't like it, lump it" (I think that's how the old saying goes), or "this is the world's smallest violin...", but in legalese.
Re:This might explain why (Score:4, Funny)
So all we have to do is buy a new BMW to avoid this government inflicted inconvienience? What's all the fuss about then?
Re:This might explain why (Score:3, Funny)
Yup, the government forced the garage door companies and the auto companies to use a frequency band that was already assigned to the military as the primary user. Yup, it's a conspiracy all right.
Wanker.
Re:This might explain why (Score:5, Informative)
Basically, if a primary user's signal interferes with a secondary user, the secondary user is the one responsible for dealing with the problem (e.g., shielding their equipment, moving, etc). The primary users don't have to take any steps to avoid interfering with secondary users.
Secondary users, on the other hand, have to avoid interfering with primary users. If a secondary user interferes with a primary user, the secondary user has to stop, shield their equipment, move, etc.
Re:This might explain why (Score:3, Interesting)
Not surprised in the least, and I think it's perfectly within their rights.
Are you a functional human being? (Score:2, Funny)
Yah right. Only the military has powerful radars. Airliners are tracked across country by emissions from illegal cell phone usage. The minute they make cell phones legal on airplanes, the thrill will be gone and there will be no way to track airliners because on
Tin Foil Hat Time ! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Tin Foil Hat Time ! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Tin Foil Hat Time ! (Score:2)
Should I file this under "missing the point"?
Hmm...Let's remove the garage-door foil, and *then* use the remote to open it.....
When you can't (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:When you can't (Score:2)
Re:When you can't (Score:5, Insightful)
My brother had one installed, and I asked him what he'd do if his remote's battery ever went dead.
He shrugged and said he'd buy new ones at the store... but stores arent always opened when Murphy's Law decides to apply itself.
Re:When you can't (Score:2)
You don't even need Murphy's Law for that one. Assuming he spends more time at home or work than at a store that sells batteries, his odds are good that he will be in the wrong place when the batteries die.
Re:When you can't (Score:5, Funny)
Re:When you can't (Score:2)
Re:When you can't (Score:2)
Why? Because we designed the alarm system?
Luddites rejoice (Score:5, Funny)
Recent Batttlestar Galactica Remake... (Score:2)
I thought that was one of the neater twists in the recent Batttlestar Galactica remake - that the only Vipers immune to the Cylon override of their control codes were the ones that had been sitting down in the Galactica museum next to the gift shop.
That, and, of course, the über-hot Cylon chicks...
Forget part 15... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Forget part 15... (Score:5, Informative)
No, not really. The purpose of Part 15 in this case is to protect the military (or whatever individual/group/organization is assigned the particular frequency(s)) from interfearance that your keyless entry system might produce. It is not meant to protect your keyless entry system from others who may be using their assigned spectrum properly.
Re:Forget part 15... (Score:5, Informative)
So, it all comes down to what frequencies the car alarm makers are expecting to use. If they pick a miliatary frequency and are trying to use it at low power, then they can't really complain when a miliatary ship comes by and blows them out of the water bandwidth-wise. However, if they pick a frequency open to the public like the 900mHz band, then it's the military transmitting too strong on a low-power band, even if it's just the result signal splash from their attempt to use their assigned band at high power.
So, in a sense, Part 15 does protect your keyless entry system from the miliatary. They're supposed to keep their RF operations away from your space just as much as you're supposed to stay away from theirs.
Re:Forget part 15... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Forget part 15... (Score:4, Funny)
It should, just not in the way you're thinking:
Whatever they had running was so strong, it completely fried the system.
That's what the "must accept interference" part comes in.
Of course, the idea of going to Olds and saying "Your stuff violated part 15 because it didn't accept FCC-legal interference. So replace it with something that does, or I'm siccing the FCC on you!" is probably not terribly workable.
Might be fun, though.
Re:Forget part 15... (Score:2)
Interesting... (Score:2, Funny)
Stratcom Jamming (Score:5, Interesting)
He explained on several occasions that one of their amusements was lowering a long antenna and jamming garage door frequencies and other civilian applications (e.g. keyless door locks). I couldn't imagine why the air force would want to interfere with garage doors and he never had a good explanation other than they were told to do that and the crew always found it amusing.
Urban legend? Looking Glass crew tall tale told to amuse their friends? Who knows, but they certainly had the ability to try and lord knows many friends have had their garage doors open by themselves in the middle of the night.
Re:Stratcom Jamming (Score:2)
Jams? (Score:5, Insightful)
When 2 ethernet NIC's transmit at the same time in normal operation we don't call it jamming. I doubt that what the government is doing is intentional.
Re:Jams? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Jams? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Jams? (Score:5, Informative)
The car entry system makers picked a frequency that belonged to the military as the primary user... they can't really complain when the military comes to town and wants to use their channel.
Re:Jams? (Score:5, Funny)
I know that was just a typo, but I nearly wet myself laughing, anyhow...
Somehow I picture Linus (the "Peanuts" character) as the captain of an aircraft carrier, exerting his "blankey control".
Re:Jams? (Score:5, Informative)
The generally held concept for emergencies is "anything goes", but you better be prepared to answer for and justify your actions later on.
The other is the military. They don't have "band limits" on their signals. They have generally decided on a band plan that doesn't interfere with other services, but any frequency that is not desginated as broadcast, amateur or public service is subject to them usurping any time at their discretion. Even some of the amateur frequencies are primarily military designation and amateurs are secondary users (parts of 440 Mhz and others).
At the risk of being flamebait, remember, they're the U.S. Government and they can do whatever the hell they want.
I think this says it all... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I think this says it all... (Score:2)
Conspiracy! (Score:5, Funny)
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:hmm (Score:2)
Some of the devices that have failed in Waldorf operate on a frequency of 315 megahertz. Another common keyless entry frequency is 302 MHz. Both of these frequencies fall within a range licensed primarily for use by the military and the federal government.
In a summary of radio spectrum use from the National Telecommunications and Information Administration, the frequencies in the range from 225 MHz to 328.6 MHz "are heavily used worldwide for critical military air traffic control and ta
Re: (Score:2)
Re:hmm (Score:2, Funny)
(No way am I posting this with my account. [And please do notice the play on words before modding this -1.])
Rador Detectors at Air Force Bases (Score:2, Interesting)
The cops at the gate don't like to see radar detectors anyway, so it was usually best to keep it off the dash after you passed through, as it was useless.
On the other hand, keyless remotes didn't pose too much of a problem.
Mercedes 200E - V. Nice but electronic key (Score:2)
Same for the ignition, but that is perhaps less vulnerable to interference as the key dongle must be placed inside a slot.
These cars do work in the vicinity of significant ground radar. Otherwise people at the airport would have problems. I really don't know how the lock receivers c
Re:Mercedes 200E - V. Nice but electronic key (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Mercedes 200E - V. Nice but electronic key (Score:3, Informative)
Garage door remotes (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Garage door remotes (Score:3, Funny)
Who ever used that part of the spectrum (Score:3, Insightful)
In Eastern Europe... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:In Eastern Europe... (Score:2)
Re:In Eastern Europe... (Score:3, Informative)
The key fob and auto receiver use "rolling codes". Once the vehicle accepts a code as valid, it increments to the next code in the sequence. Likewise, each time the fob is pressed it increments to the next code in the sequence. The vehicle allows, say, +5/-0 codes in the sequence to allow for missed button presses. It will never open for the s
A story (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:A story (Score:5, Interesting)
I am suprised at your story though. Navy procedure for radio links involved the fuses being put in control of the watch officer who ensures that they don'tr get returned until after everyone is down.
Re:A story (Score:2, Interesting)
Lockout procedure (Score:2)
I find it hard to believe that such a dangerous piece of equipment doesn't have a lockout method.
Every worker should have their own personal lock on a machine when they are working on it. They even make these funny looking multilock adapters that will allow you to have multiple padlocks on at the same time.
Doesn't matter. (Score:4, Funny)
I worked at a branch of the military for a while. During one of the status reports, I heard this story:
Two repair techs lock out the machine they're working on with padlocks and put the keys in their respective pockets. Once they're done the repair, they go to turn the lockout off, and...
"What the [pretty flowers]? The [fluffy bunnies] padlocks are [cute kitten] missing!"
They searched the ship, and they found a drawer full of bent, broken, and damaged padlocks. It didn't belong to anyone, but it was a real WTF moment. Not only did someone ignore the lockout routine, but the guy pried open the padlocks to turn the locked out machine on.
They never found out who did it.
Re:A story (Score:5, Informative)
I've seen the outcome when the Red Tag procedure is not followed, it cost a friend of mine his hand.
Re:A story (Score:3, Informative)
Only in America (Score:2)
Who else in the world would blame aliens because they cant open their garage door.
This Guy (Score:2)
If you want to really know, try this guy [virtuallystrange.net].
semi-dupe (Score:4, Informative)
Obligatory Spaceballs Quote (Score:5, Funny)
Dark Helmet: "Jammed? Raspberry. There's only one man who would dare give me the raspberry. Lone Starr!"
Eckerd drugstore (Score:3, Interesting)
Although once your inside the car it will usually work, since your right on top of the receiver. It probably has something to do with Eckerd transmitting store information to a national databse or something.
For sale.... (Score:5, Funny)
Not in my experience (Score:2)
Now I did laugh every time there was a ceremony on base with a 21 gun salute and car alarms would go off left and right.
Hmmm.... (Score:3, Funny)
Depends on the car... (Score:5, Interesting)
One of those shows that copy MTV's Punk'd concept did a thing like this with retail CB walkie-talkies. They went to one of the big parking lots downtown and when a car's owner approached his vehicle, they just hit the speak button on the CB radio and held it down. Then, when the car wouldn't open, they'd send a fake locksmith in who'd pretend to mess with the lock for a while, eventually give up and then offer to smash in one of the windows.
In most cases, that one walkie-talkie was enough to "jam" the keyless entry system. The only cars it failed to work on were Mercedes, BMW and IIRC Audi models (maybe imports use a different frequeny - I dunno).
Surprisingly, most of the people couldn't seem to figure out how to get in their cars without the remote (well, at least, of those people they showed). I sometimes wonder how those people manage to put their pants on in the morning.
Re:Depends on the car... (Score:2)
Re:Depends on the car... (Score:2)
Could be fixed if they spent more on the receiver (Score:5, Interesting)
The particular frequencies used depend on where in the world you are; the U.S. uses one set and the rest of the world uses another. Here in the "rest of the world" most remotes operate at 433 MHz. This is not far from TV frequencies - ever find your car remote doesn't work if you're parked next to a TV transmitter? Newer systems will probably be using 868 MHz (rest of world) or 913 (U.S.); this bit of the spectrum is better regulated and it would be difficult to get away with not using a crystal-based receiver. So hopefully these problems will go away.
Re:Could be fixed if they spent more on the receiv (Score:4, Informative)
Unlicensed lowpower devices are allowed to use a small part of this band, but they have to accept interference from the other services.
Many radio amateurs are allowed to output about 100 Watts at this frequency, which of course completely swamps the milliwatt signal of the car keys.
The radio location service can output megawatts of pulse power.
The frequency is also used by many other lowpower wireless devices. Interferences is very often a problem. Don't buy products using this technology.
I once had a car alarm (Score:3, Insightful)
that went bezerk for almost 48 hours. It worked perfectly until out of the blue, the alarm would sound, doors would lock and unlock every second, and if I shut it off, it would turn itself on again a second later. The car was parked in my parents driveway at the time. I had to disconnect the battery to shut the damned thing off. I tried it again 24 hours later, same problem. The day after that, the problem went away, never reappeared.
Co-incidentally, there was an airshow on in town during this time. When the airshow ended, so did the problems. I wonder what kind of super radar they were using that had this effect.
Re:I once had a car alarm (Score:5, Insightful)
When the air-show came to town, there's usually some military aircraft included in the group whose favorite comminication frequency just happens to be the one your car alarm is tuned to.
Therefore, the car alarm thinks it's always being challenged by the random noise that is really the pilots talking to each other...
Re:I once had a car alarm (Score:3, Interesting)
I've
What's the frequency, Kennith? (Score:3, Insightful)
Why don't the car people put their systems on 900mHz, 2.4GHz, or 5.8GHz with the rest of the consumer device universe? They might have to deal with occasional interference from other things, but they can be assured that nobody will ever come in with a high-wattage use of that space that'll blow them out of the water.
Lawsuit: it's the American Way... (Score:3, Interesting)
It's the American way.
Re:Lawsuit: it's the American Way... (Score:3, Funny)
she must of been in a convertable?
or else she could of just locked her door?
Of course I'm not a girl, and i've never been raped, and I don't drive down the highway for 100 miles because my gas pedal is stuck and the brakes don't work, mostly because i'd turn the car off after the police star chasing me..
I don't trust those things. (Score:3, Interesting)
None of you will believe me, anyways.
One day, I parked near a friends house, around Southport/Addison (chicago). I was (at the time) driving a 1998 Black Sebring.
When I came back to pickup my car, there was a white saturn in front of it.
Push unlock. The headlights, and the horn on both cars flash/beep.
Weird.
Push lock. The headlights, and the horn on both flash/beep twice.
Weird.
Repeat.
Wow... It kept working.....
What are the chances against that? 80 billion to 1?
Craziness..
Why can't I win the lotto, instead?
Re:How bout this (Score:3, Interesting)
In the 88 to 89 Toyota trucks, the vast majority of them could be opened with a Toyota key with all notches cut about 1/32nd inch deep.
Around this time, you could get a new key to fit your Volvo, Mazda or Saab by giving the dealer the last 3 digits of the VIN, visable through the windshield. Some dealers checked to see if the requestor actually owned the car, most didn't.
Mustangs around '79 had a lot of different ignition keys, b
Doesn't anybody have a spectrum analyzer? (Score:3, Interesting)
If you're getting interference with a keyless entry device at very short range, the interference source is probably nearby. Very nearby, like tens of meters. There's an inverse square law, remember. Somebody in that parking lot has something that's emitting.
Sure, an Aegis battlecruser could point its phased array radar in your direction, hold the beam stationary. and send a few megawatts down a narrow beam out to the horizon, but that's unlikely. Few smaller radars have that kind of power, directionality, and steerability. You still have to have near line of sight, anyway.
Get a directional antenna and a signal strength meter, and you'll find the source.
It happens every day in San Francisco (Score:3, Informative)
We complain - audi says it's not their fault, City says it's not their problem.
When I grow an extra head from the radiation I will go to the office of the Sutro Tower people and eat one of their faces.
RS
Re:Medical devices (Score:3, Interesting)
I think you have been watching to much trek.
They are simply using their assigned frequencies...
The problem is that some guys thought they were smart assigning a frequency band used by others (like military or HAMs) for unlicensed use.
(Same is happening at 2.4GHz)
Jeroen
Re:Medical devices (Score:4, Informative)
That being said? I find it highly unlikely that a critical device like that would be left to "We can just sneak along on any frequency we want, because we put out less than 1w"
Re:Medical devices (Score:5, Informative)
This is one of the reasons medical devices have to go through some rigorous testing and use approved frequencies. Even so, mistakes do occur.
When a pacemaker fails, it tends to get noticed. Early pacemakers had trouble with improperly shielded microwave ovens - mostly because the pacemaker itself was improperly shielded. Pacemakers that used a magnetic sensor for the on/off function ran into trouble if a strong magnet was waved over the patient's chest. Some of the early AV sequential pacemakers with the ability to change heart rate based on activity sensors would, if incorrectly programmed, suddenly throw the patient into an artificial 2nd degree heart block when the patient's heart rate exceeded a specific amount.
Urban legends contribute to percieved problems. Notice all the hospitals with "No Cell Phone" signs. Then notice all the cell phones in use by the doctors and the EMS personnel walking around with Handi-Talkies. Oops....
Re:Medical devices (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Medical devices (Score:3, Informative)
That rule was instituted after a number of W callsigns were issued to stations west of the Mississippi.
The stations already holding W callsigns were allowed to keep them. Dallas has at least two:
WFAA [wfaa.com]
WRR [wrr101.com]
Re:The manufacturers should be arrested! (Score:4, Informative)
Re:The manufacturers should be arrested! (Score:2, Insightful)
Perhaps this might be a good time to read the article. Particularly the bit about how low power transmissions aren't regulated by the FCC.
Take notes. There will be an exam at the end.
Re:The manufacturers should be arrested! (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Top 10 most stolen cars (Score:5, Insightful)
I have three rocks in my garden. All of them are red. None have been stolen. Ergo, red rocks cannot be stolen.
See how stupid it sounds? Dude - the top five cars on that list are also the TOP FIVE most common cars in the U.S. If you can establish a relationship between the theft rates of similarly-equipped cars, where the only variable is RFID or not, then you've got a case and you are welcome to tell us all about it. If you just wanna spout uneducated shit...
Sorry, you're off-topic (Score:2)