New PowerMac G5s: Up to 2.5Ghz, Liquid Cooled 1009
no_demons writes "Apple have just announced the new, completely dual-processor PowerMac G5 lineup. The models all sport an 8x SuperDrive, whilst new the dual-2.5GHz model also features an 'innovative liquid cooled heat sink,' available in July."
Nothing left for Modders (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Nothing left for Modders (Score:4, Funny)
Lemee see a round plexiglass SPHERE case w/ enough LED's and cold cathode lights to light up a small-to-medium sized city and enough cooling power to shatter the T1000, and THEN we can talk about 'nothing left for modders' to do...
You forgot ONE thing (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Nothing left for Modders (Score:5, Insightful)
Make the RF-shielding case useless, it looks so much flashier with a frigging HOLE in the side. Fans with LEDs inside aren't more quiet nor do they push more air, they're flashier. UV-lighting inside your case doesn't push more data across the buses, it's there to be flashy. A fan grille in the shape of a biohazard sign doesn't obstruct airflow any less than a normal grille, but it's flashier. The graphics card with a stupid dragon / monster / anime babe printed on its fan casing is more expensive than a more normal looking computer component, but it's flashy (if you lie on the floor looking up, so you can see it when it's installed and turned upside down).
Though personally I think it all looks more ridiculous and stereotypical than "flashy".
Re:Nothing left for Modders (Score:5, Funny)
Pussy. Go back to using your Amiga or something.
Re:Nothing left for Modders (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Nothing left for Modders (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Nothing left for Modders (Score:4, Funny)
Yeah, neon lights make your computer go 20% faster.
Re:Nothing left for Modders (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Nothing left for Modders but ASS? (Score:5, Funny)
or is that a diccerent project altogether?
i'm thinking of course of this picture: http://www.buckeyemonkey.com/images/ass.jpg
Re:Nothing left for Modders but ASS? (Score:5, Funny)
Comment removed (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Nothing left for Modders (Score:4, Funny)
So I suggest you throw that piece of crap out the window and use a real computer.
Re:Nothing left for Modders (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Nothing left for Modders (Score:4, Funny)
Please tell me you have videos! We need more swedish-death-metal-band-being-crushed-by-VTOL-air craft stories here on slashdot.
I'll settle for Roxette being crushed by a moderately loud cat if that's the best you can find.
Troc
PS I think I may have wandered offtopic.
Re:Nothing left for Modders (Score:5, Insightful)
May I ask a serious question? Why mod it in the first place? I can understand that it's fun to make cases fit a "theme" (i.e. If I've got a bunch of racing memorabilia, I might want my case to have flames and exhaust pipes), but outside of that, what's the point? It's just a box. You might as well mod your dishwasher with a plexiglass window in front, and neon lights that catch the water sprays while it's running.
Beyond that, a computer is a machine that you usually don't want to be visible. You see the screen, you see the mouse, and you see the keyboard. Put the mobo in a closet or a hole in the wall for all I care. The only thing I need it for is to insert a CDROM drive or plug in a USB device.
(Insert comment about Real Unix Geeks keeping their machines in climate controlled rooms.)
Re:Nothing left for Modders (Score:5, Insightful)
I think we're better off if the ricers, er.. modders stay away from these systems.
Re:Nothing left for Modders (Score:5, Funny)
Uh, use the thing?
You forgot one thing (Score:4, Funny)
Mudflaps. With the nekkid ladies on 'em.
What, am I the only redneck who owns a mac?
No, it is. (Score:5, Informative)
The schematic clearly shows a closed circuit of pump driven fluid flowing past the CPUs getting heated and then flowing into a heat exchanger (takes the place of a holding tank, and is actually superior too one) with a fan blowing on it. This is exactly like a smaller version of the cooling system in a car. There is no phase change.
A heat pipe [heatpipe.com] is completly different, it is a phase change driven system, and does not involve pumping, or traditional heat exchangers.
Re:No, it is. (Score:5, Insightful)
is the RADIANT GRILLE or the CPU's the "PUMP"?
the text doesn't say there is a pump either, *The dual 2.5GHz Power Mac G5 features an innovative liquid cooling system that's more efficient than a traditional heat sink. This system provides a continuous flow of thermally conductive fluid that transfers heat from the processors as they work harder. The heated fluid then flows through a radiant grille, where air passing over cooling fins returns the fluid to its original temperature.*
all this implies that it is, in effect, a heatpipe without a pump driving the system. the diagram implies it as well.
It makes more sense to not have a pump anyways, besides, if they did use a pump this wouldn't be that innovative at all(because this is exactly where a heatpipe cooler could/would rock).
Re:No, it is. (Score:5, Informative)
Mac OS X dynamically adjusts the flow of the fluid...
To control the flow of the fluid you would need a pump. You could put a valve in it, but that makes no sence, because a heat pipe adjusts it's own flow, passively, based on the heat load.
I don't disagree that a heat pipe would rock for this, but it is not what is in the Mac.
yes, It is! (Score:5, Informative)
FYI, I did RTFA and see this:
This system provides a continuous flow of thermally conductive fluid that transfers heat from the processors as they work harder. The heated fluid then flows through a radiant grille, where air passing over cooling fins returns the fluid to its original temperature.
That is clearly how a heat pipe works.
Furthermore, in relation to your question to another poster:
Mac OS X dynamically adjusts the flow of the fluid...
To control the flow of the fluid you would need a pump. You could put a valve in it, but that makes no sence, because a heat pipe adjusts it's own flow, passively, based on the heat load.
They did do it without a pump. And it's still a heat pipe. Heres how:
Mac OS X dynamically adjusts the flow of the fluid and the speed of the fans based on temperature.
By adjusting the speed of the fan that blows air through the radiant grille, they can control the cooling efficiency of the radiant grille.
So with the dynamically changed airflow, which in turn changes the temperature, the result will be a change in the pressure in the area covered by radiant grille within the closed system. This will cause a change in the speed at which the fluid flows.
Hence, Mac OS X dynamically adjusts the flow of the fluid
Read it properly next time and apply some common sense... Oh wait, this is Slashdot..
Bastards (Score:4, Funny)
Now I have to wait another year.
Bastards.
Re:Bastards (Score:3, Informative)
There's the upgrade process I've been through, btw. Has a full gig of RAM. Waiting for some downtown to clock the FSB up to 133 to match the RAM.
Meh. I still want my G5!
Clock speed (Score:4, Interesting)
The dual thing is pretty cool for a pre-build box though...
Re:Clock speed (Score:5, Informative)
But between two otherwise identical G5 chips, it can be assumed the 2.5GHz one will go faster than a 2GHz one. It's essentially the same chip, just running faster.
-N
Re:Clock speed (Score:4, Insightful)
So, A G5 running at 2.5GHz can't be compared to an Athlon running at 2.5GHz on clock speed alone, for example.
However, if you look at Apple's rigged demo (the photoshop test), there's almost a factor of two difference. It's probably not quite that extreme for the rest of the system, but it looks like G5s are faster than the AMD64, clock for clock. Or, they could be the same speed, but the pshop filter is multithreaded.
Re:Clock speed (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Clock speed (Score:5, Insightful)
Clock speed doesn't mean "nothing", it's just not the sole- or even the most meaningful- measurement of over-all system speed. People have mearely noticed that, with all the bottle-necks in a system, merely bumping up clock-speeds without improving the over-all architecture gives deminishing returns.
What a G5 2.5 Ghz would be equivalent to in terms of Intel or AMD depends on what you're doing and how you benchmark. It really doesn't matter too much, though, unless you're trying to start a Mac vs. PC flame war. It's like comparing Apples and Oranges.
Re:Clock speed (Score:5, Funny)
*ducks*
it's also workload per cycle (Score:5, Insightful)
well it's also the chip's design. the Apple (and IBM/Moto) designs (and AMD to some extent) "do more work" per clock cycle. that's part of the reason some are better for some processes (though software is key too). think of it like a racecar vs a truck. a racecar revs really fast and flies, but carries one passenger. a truck revs lower but can tow a house. if you had a relay race of the two that had to transport 300 people across a distance the truck could win since it could haul everyone in one or two trips. it's the same way the G5 (or G4) tries to "do more" with every clock cycle compared to Intel just trying to go really really fast.
it really comes down to attacking the same problem from different methods.
Re:Clock speed (Score:5, Informative)
SPEC.ORG doesnt have any recent PowerPC benchmarks, but looking at historical bechmarks (Specint95 on 500Mhz processors) PowerPC has about a 20% higher score than a pentium of the same Mhz.
I would guess this advantage has increased as PowerPC pipelining and paralellism have improved dramatically since then.
So a 2.5 GHz PowerPC should be able to crunch numbers better than a 3 GHz Intel.
The chip also has the advantage of not being constained by the 8080 architecture.
Re:Clock speed (Score:5, Interesting)
Anyway I expect this new G5 to greatly outperform a P4.
Re:Clock speed (Score:5, Funny)
cool (Score:3, Insightful)
Anyway, sorry to be looking at the glass half-empty.
Re:cool (Score:5, Insightful)
Soon, and without ADC (Score:4, Interesting)
Think Secret is reporting that new displays are due soon [thinksecret.com]. The new displays apparently will be DVI only -- no more ADC. (The 30" display requires 150W, which ADC couldn't handle.)
What puzzles me is the GPUs currently in these new G5s -- they seem to be dual-head ADC+DVI. That's not terribly useful once ADC goes the way of the dodo. If you're in the market for the new displays, it might be worth holding off on the G5 a few weeks, in order to get a DVI+DVI video card.
Apple LCD promo ends soon? (Score:5, Informative)
they also noted the fine print of the promo listed display by part number, so if a metallic 23inch came out sooner, it would not qualify for the discount per say.
though looking at the Apple site now i am only seeing a $500 off 23inch LCD with G5 purchase.... so i dont know if i am missing it of only the 23inch is on sale.
Re:cool (Score:5, Interesting)
I guess those issues would explain why Apple had to switch to liquid cooling for this round of systems.
Re:cool (Score:4, Funny)
Liquid Cooling is, uh, cool (Score:4, Interesting)
Here's a theory: The 2.5 is slated to start shipping in July, so maybe Apple is getting around the new-model-launch-delays bear? Will they announce and ship the "missing" 2.7 and 3.0 portions of the range in September, when they would have shipped anyway, even if they were announced today? "Clearing out the old machines and releasing the typical low-end 'shipping today' portion of the new model range, and keeping mum on the parts we would normally delay two months."
That said, they are still impressive machines, save for the GPU. Also, to the first poster, the top end chips are 2.5Ghz, not 1.5...
Re:Liquid Cooling is, uh, cool (Score:5, Funny)
they are still impressive machines, save for the GPU
I know, the GPU's in these things suck. The Radeon 9800XT is a toy, just because it was released more than a month ago. Why didn't Apple pack these things with some unreleased card from ATI or Nvidia that would run 5X as fast, huh?
G5's GPUs are sub-par (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't be an ass. Yes, the 9800XT is fast, but:
- It's Build-To-Order only
- It takes up an extra slot
Apple's top-end stock GPU, the 9600XT, is mid-range at this point. The other G5s still use the FX5200 [google.com], which SUCKS HAIRY GOAT these days and does not belong in Apple's officially designated "Pro" machines.Liquid Cooling (Score:5, Interesting)
I've often pondered creating a sealed aluminum case with integrated heatsink. Stick the components in and fill it with dielectric oil in order to create a huge, passive heat sink (like a big transformer or whatever). Thoughts? I almost got around to this but stopped after submerging an old hard drive in some dielectric - if you seal the breating hole, it works fine (I believe the hole is there to relieve pressure differentials caused by changes in altitude so it should be fine in a stationary location).
Provided that the dielectric has good enough heat transfer, this should work, no?
Re:Liquid Cooling (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Liquid Cooling And MORE... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Liquid Cooling And MORE... (Score:4, Interesting)
All the good parts of the Cray T90 [cray.com] were immersed in a big tank of Fluorinert.
Re:Liquid Cooling (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Liquid Cooling (Score:4, Informative)
Reference? I don't know of any hard drive where this is the case. The only purpose of the breather hole is for pressure equalization. The heads fly due to the aerodynamics of their physical design-- just like an airplane wing.
Re:Liquid Cooling (Score:4, Informative)
Ummm, no. The heads are stationary relative to the airflow. They move across the platter or are stationary. They are not shaped to be aerodynamic, and actually cause a lot of air turbulence when they move.
What makes the head float over the platter is laminar flow. This is the tendency of air to stick to the platter. This creates a molecules thick layer of fast-moving air that generally spirals out from the center of the platter to the outside, turning in the direction of the platter's rotation. As this flow is faster than the surrounding air, it draws the head closer to the platter. As the head gets very close, the laminar flow slows, until equilibrium is reached and the head floats stably.
The primary reason why most hard drives cannot be used above 10,000ft is because air pressure gets low enough for tolerance limits to be reached.
The primary purpose of the vent hole is to allow the drive to equalize pressure. Variations of pressure cause the case to flex, which can affect the head alignment against the platters.
Hope this helps...
Attention to detail... (Score:5, Insightful)
Each of the four thermal zones is equipped with its own dedicated, low-speed fans. Apple engineered the nine fans to spin at very low speeds for minimum acoustic output. Using 21 different sensors, Mac OS X constantly monitors component temperatures in each zone, dynamically adjusting individual fan speeds to the appropriate levels for the quietest possible operation. As a result, the Power Mac G5 runs two times quieter than the previous Power Mac G4 enclosure.
Nine fans and 21 sensors, generating half as many decibels. Now I'm not an Apple fan-boy but that's the level of attention to detail that seperates Apple from Dell, etc.
Re:Attention to detail... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Attention to detail... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Attention to detail... (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm willing to appear superficial to get some good, quality engineering on my desktop.
Re:Attention to detail... (Score:5, Insightful)
Apple's design is more than simply "superficial." It's thorough. When I was looking for laptops, I found plenty of really nice machines with big, fast, hot processors that only got a little more than an hour of battery life. And I found machines with nice, big 17" screens that had super high resolutions, but were only viewable from a tiny angle. And any machine that had similar features and speed were close to two inches thick and weighted upwards of 15 pounds.
I only found one that was even close to the footprint of my 15" with similar specs, and it was the Apex Ferrari. Now, since I'm not going to buy a gaudy red laptop with a ferrari logo on it, I only had the one choice
logarithmic scale (Score:4, Informative)
So before we all drop to our knees on this one, lets consider the physics.
Re:logarithmic scale (Score:5, Informative)
Double or half the power is +/- 3dB.
Re:Attention to detail... (Score:5, Informative)
>
Noise level (bels, often referred to in tenths of bels, or decibels) is a logarithmic measurement, similar to the Richter scale. The number of bels for a given ratio of power levels is calculated by taking the logarithm, to the base 10, of the ratio.So this is actually a reduction of just over three decibels. Doesn't sound like much, but it really is twice as quiet. Gives you more respect for the 20db case fans, eh?
Re:Attention to detail... (Score:4, Informative)
Your figures are correct for actual power output. However, a sound 10db higher, 10 times as much energy, is perceived as being only twice as loud. Each 10db increase doubles the sound volume, but increases the energy required by 10 times. That's why a really loud stereo takes so much power; to make a sound 4 times louder, it takes 100 times as much energy. 8 times as loud requires a THOUSAND times as much energy.
The reverse is true.... to cut the apparent loudness of your case fans by half, engineers have to drop the amount of generated noise by 10 times. One fourth as loud is 1/100th the original energy. So it really does give you an appreciation for a case that is 20db quieter than another.
So Apple's actual claims could be either 'energy' or 'loudness'. They say it is 'two times quieter', which I perceive as typical marketspeak bafflegab. It's hard to interpret. If the correct interpretation is 'half as loud', then the G5 is at -10db and is generating 1/10th as much sound energy. If it is 'half as much energy', then it's about 3db as you state, and would be perceived as slightly quieter.
Judging from how hard they're pushing this feature, I'm suspicious it's the former... people would be angry if their $3K computer didn't really sound half as loud.
Re:Attention to detail... (Score:5, Interesting)
It's not so much that the Mac is amazingly quiet for having 9 fans, it's amazingly quiet for having any fans. They could definitely get away with 2 fans, but they'd have to run faster so they'd be louder.
The liquid cooling thing is all part of it...you know the kind of fans you're typically running on a new Intel/AMD chip? Well if you liquid cooled them like this Mac, you could probably get away with a much quieter setup. Again, I'm sure they could air-cool them, but they'd be loud like your typical PC.
Re:Attention to detail... (Score:5, Informative)
assuming that the new g5's work the way the current ones do in this regard (and I'm sure they do). the software overrides the hardware. if there is no software to control the speed, then it defaults to full blast.
if you install linux on a g5 then the fans all run at full because the linux people haven't decoded the fan controllers yet (or hadn't last I looked). and even with osx on it, when you turn it on, the fans blow at full for a short while until bios/osx gets loaded and takes control and brings the speed down.
so if osx crashes so hard that even low level drivers like that die, then the machine should still not overheat.
dave
Re:Attention to detail... (Score:5, Informative)
Water cooling... (Score:3, Funny)
Come on, Apple. I want purple and red water coming out of both processors!
-ch
Graphics cards... (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course, the whole point of a tower is that you can replace the card, but when you're already paying 2,500 USD, should you have to?
Re:Graphics cards... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Graphics cards... (Score:5, Insightful)
Think of it this way, the target market (A graphics professional- Photoshop, Quark, Illustrator, InDesign) has no need for 3D acceleration. The NVidea card in the G5s have plenty enough power for Quartz Extreme, so they put them in.
Now, if you are someone who would use a higher end graphics card, by all means- switch it out in the BTO.
I do wish they would include the bluetooth module in all machines.
Re:Graphics cards...are important (Score:5, Informative)
GL does have a couple 2D Drawing modes, GL_ORTHO, for instance, and cards hardware accelerate them. How do you think games draw their pretty little GUI's and menus and whatnot?
Interestingly enough, nobody's ever developed a really good benchmark for cards that can accurately compare card performances drawing to ortho's. Maybe 3DMark should include a test like this. I imagine that raw fill rate has the biggest impact here, but who knows what kind of crazy optimizations card manufacturers might have in there to help/hurt the 2D OpenGL performance in favor of the 3D.
Big deal - upgrade incrementally! (Score:5, Interesting)
My dual 2ghz G5 performs great with the stock 512mb RAM. I've upgraded it to 3.5gb, and there is a difference (mainly in switching applications), but the system with its stock RAM configuration is perfectly usable.
My 160gb system disk lasted about 8 months before I had to buy a new 250gb to fit the empty slot. I would have gained nothing by buying the 250g disk with the system.
Apple makes fantastic computers, and I'm a fanatical Apple loyalist -- but you'll get everything cheaper if you go to Fry's(*) or shop on the net for components like memory and disk. Memory upgrades are universally about triple the going rate if you get them from Apple, and Apple's brilliant case design makes them easy to install.
Always upgrade incrementally. It will let you spread the financial pain and you'll enjoy getting the performance boost treats spread over time.
Hope that helps.
D
(*) If you're not in California, you may have never heard of Fry's. It's a huge retail store, designed by scions of a prominent supermarket family, that works basically like a supermarket for computer gear. If it exists, and it has to do with computers or salty snacks, it's probably hiding somewhere in Fry's, waiting patiently for you to discover it.
Is that lower CPU off? (Score:5, Funny)
new Display too (Score:4, Interesting)
Think Secret writes they may even come with DVI port.
Where's Steve? (Score:4, Interesting)
I think it's pretty safe to say we're gonna have an all new iMac at WWDC. It's the other upgrade everyone's been waiting for. Aluminum iMac? We'll see.
Re:Where's Steve? (Score:5, Interesting)
One thing about Apple liquid cooling... (Score:5, Informative)
(They don't do it because the PowerPC 970 family is "so hot", either; the PowerPC 970, and the 970FX even moreso, run much cooler, and require less power, than even the newest generation PowerPC 74xx (G4) family processors: )
Also, new PowerPC 970FX information from IBM is now available [ibm.com].
Don't care about apple... (Score:5, Insightful)
Now, we've got liquid cooled technology backed by Apple. It's pretty sweet, considering you either have to buy a specially designed freon pumping case, or a $500 video card to reap the benefits of this kind of cooling.. Now all you've gotta do is buy a $3000 Mac.
Sarcasm aside, I think this shows that soon, the PC's on the shelves will mostly all be using some sort of heat pipe / water cooling technology.
I'm not a Mac fanboy, don't own one, but this really goes to show that Apple can and does set standards for personal computing. With major backing like this, it's only a matter of time before it trickles down to where everyone can be using it for a relatively cheap price. Way to go, Apple.
Re:Don't care about apple... (Score:5, Funny)
"Trickle Down"
In a post about liquid cooling...
Room temp water cooling for processor #2 (Score:5, Interesting)
It would appear that the liquid passes over processor #1, then #2, then back to the heat sink to be diffused by the fan blowing over it. This would say to me that processor #2 is getting at best room temp water cooling, while proc #1 is getting cold water cooling.
Here's my reasoning: If the heat sink with the fan blowing over it can cool the water 2X degrees, then when it is leaving the cooling system it is at Room Temp (RT) - X degrees. It passes over both processors and returns to the cooling system at RT+X degrees, where it is cooled by 2X and leaves the system at RT-X, headed for the hot processors again, follow?
So here's the meat of it: both processors together heat the water up by 2X (see above). That means each processor heats the water by X, so when the cool water leaves, it is at temp RT-X, passes over the heat sink and it raised to (RT-X)+X=RT which then passes over the second processor and cools it to RT+X where it returns.
So the second processor is getting room temp water cooling while the first is getting RT-X cooling. What effect will this have on the system?
Re:Room temp water cooling for processor #2 (Score:5, Informative)
Apples just does the right thing (Score:4, Informative)
Watercooling has been around for some time but no majorplayer implemented it. I bet that two years from now this could well be standard at Dells, HPs and so on...
The New Powermac G5 (Score:5, Funny)
fs
Re:Not Much Here (Score:5, Informative)
2) Fast video cards are nice, but if I want a gaming machine I'll get a PS2.
3) Yes, only 256MB of RAM on the 1.8GHz. You need more, buy it from somewhere else. Apple overprices their RAM
The real development here is the liquid cooling. It's a big step forward, because this means that they might be able to put faster processors into the Powerbooks, and they'll be ready for 3GHz and faster processors once IBM overcomes the Voodoo Curse.
I'm a little disappointed, but since I have to save for a wedding, I'm kind of glad they're waiting to release the dual 3GHz. It will be easier to convince my future wife that we need it when we aren't dropping $5000 next week for a payment.
Re:Not Much Here (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Not Much Here (Score:4, Insightful)
I use my Mac for actual work. I'm waiting for the PS3 to buy a console, and I've even put an Ethernet port next to my cable jack for it. Until then, I'm happy to play WarCraft III and UT2K4 in my spare time. They run wonderfully on my Powerbook. Through college I didn't have any trouble finding games to waste lots and lots of my time.
I would rather buy third party RAM than have Apple's profit margin cut. It's that 30% that allows them to put so much into hardware development. Sure, a $1600 G5 would be nice, but if it hurts development and bundled software (iLife is worth a whole lot more than $400), I will be patient.
I'm sure you could pick up a refurb, but that would involve extra effort, and you don't want to actually have to look for products, you just want them to be available.
Re:Not Much Here (Score:5, Funny)
Oh, wait a second.
Ok, forget Bill. But look at open source guys: THOSE people know how to hit release dates. At least I think they do because it seems like every other day Slashdot is announcing availability of version 4.31.57.111 of some software package I've never heard of. Or are those really secret IP addresses for some conspiracy to which I haven't been invited?
Re:Not Much Here (Score:4, Funny)
Apple always has a big announcement in late July. The 3GHz could be it. It could also be the new iMacs though (As Apple has stopped producing the current model as of this week).
Re:Not Much Here (Score:5, Informative)
"All-in-all, no we are not getting to 3GHz anytime soon" [macworld.com]
Re:What a cool machine! (Score:5, Informative)
Re:liquid cooled (Score:4, Insightful)
More precisesly, Water is a subset of liquid.
Gasoline and alcohol are also liquids, but will have a distictly different effect on you when consumed...
Re:Majik Ovarcl0xoring Juice (Score:5, Insightful)
It's a common misconception that Apple *needed* the elaborate cooling mechanism they designed for the G5. They didn't design it to keep the chips cool, they designed it to keep the chips cool quietly. The G5, I'm told, actually runs cooler than the high-end P4 chips. It runs hotter than the G4 for sure, but it's not like there's a miniature fusion reactor in your tower or anything.
Re:PLEASE TELL ME I'M WRONG! (Score:5, Informative)
internal drives in the computer are system drives.
leave the stack of external fiberchannel/scsi drives as the media drives in the raid array.
works great for AVID when dealing with HD or digitalcinema.
and I prefer that those 15Krpm drives be external... we have had to RMA 2 of them already this year for failures/ excessive noise from 2 different AVID suites here in the office.
External media drives are the only way to go.
Re:Why PCI-X? (Score:5, Informative)
LOOK at the INTERNAL design (Score:5, Interesting)
in contrast the mac case has layers of flowing air no thicker that what is probably the thermal diffusion length. Air flows over the top and bottom of the hotest items and does so in one pass. Its beautiful. and mac planned this out from the beginning for expandability.
besides I like the cheese grater.
Re:LOOK at the INTERNAL design (Score:4, Informative)
A PC case of similar size has maybe four external drive bays and five hard drive bays, and five PCI slots plus an AGP slot.
A PC case with similar expandability, like the Antec Aria [antec-inc.com], is much smaller. (Though the Aria doesn't have two CPUs and can't hold 8 sticks of memory.)
While the insides of most PC cases may not look neat and tidy, it's child's play to buy or build a quiet, powerful PC that never overheats no matter what the load. So while PC cases may not (in general) have air channels, I'd say they work as well as they need to (though Intel apparently disagrees, since the BTX form factor is coming and is supposed to be designed for airflow).
I don't think you could reasonably expect a mainstream manufacturer to give up the expandability for an academic increase in cooling efficiency, although Shuttle has clearly demonstrated that at least some people are willing to give up expandibility for a slick form factor.
The G5's are beautiful though; I wouldn't mind owning one.
Re:Evolutionary, Not Revolutionary (Score:5, Funny)
Well I certainly can - HP sells iPods! [hp.com]
Re:Who cares? (Score:4, Insightful)
The user experience is what Macs are all about. Running OSX, not just looking like it, and having a wonderfully engineered case.
A PC running any OS it is capable of is like a bitching Camaro kicking ass in the straight-away.
A Mac is like a BMW z4 taking on a winding road.
You either get it or you don't.
Re:Who cares? (Score:5, Informative)
Mobo: MSI K8T Master2-FAR $220
CPU1: AMD Opteron 244, Retail $330
CPU1: AMD Opteron 244, Retail $330
DIMM1: 128MB ECC Registered DIMM $ 60
DIMM1: 128MB ECC Registered DIMM $ 60
HDA1: WD800JD 7200RPM 80GB SATA $ 75
VID: GeForceFX 5200 $ 55
DVD: 8X DVD+/-RW $ 90
CASE: Lian-Li PC-V1000 $200
PWR: Antec TRUE430 $ 70
MISC: keyboard, mouse, fans, etc.$ 50
=====
total $1540
So you're talking about a system that's about $1540 pre-shipping (which would probably run close to $100). And that's with the cheapest motherboard and RAM money can buy.
The dual 1.8ghz machine with otherwise similar specs from Apple is $1999. So you're paying a premium for quality system design and support, and software.
Re:Who cares? (Score:5, Informative)
You wouldn't get a warranty with the Opteron system, not that you get a great one with the Apple, but it's better than nothing.
OS X is definitely worth something, although if you're coming from a Linux POV you might think that OS's should be free. I'm willing to pay for some ease of use and elegance.
For my money, the Mac is a better deal, and arguably cheaper.
Re:Who cares? (Score:5, Informative)
Apple has by far the best warranty experience that I have ever encountered. All systems come with 90 days phone support ("I can't get OSX to do this" or "my machine is doing this") and a full year of hardware support, over the phone ("shit broke"). I have a Powerbook G4 I bought in August of last year, and the 2 times I had to call support on it (once for the screen, it was a known manufacturing issue with the 15"s at the time, the other to fix the casing that wasn't reassembled properly, just a bit loose was all, nothing major) I was on the phone for a total of less than 10 minutes, calling during "peak" times, and was on hold for less than 30 seconds before I was talking to a Mac Genious (Apple's tech people, not someone just reading off of a screen prompt). When I got off the phone, a box was on it's way to me and arrived the next day to send it in for repair, and I got the machine back a day and a half later. No computer company that I know of, except for business-grade support can match that. And Apple's AppleCare warranty, which extends phone support and hardware warranty to 3 years, is only ~$250, which is cheaper than about any level of support that anyone else offers, and for a hell of a lot better service
Re:Who cares? (Score:5, Insightful)
does this support digitial audio i/o?
how is WiFI supported? (can it use a card, or does it have to take up a PCI slot?)
how much to add software equivalent to the following:
iLife (includes iTunes, iPhoto, iMovie, iDVD and GarageBand),
Art Directors Toolkit, EarthLink TotalAccess 2004, GraphicConverter, OmniGraffle, OmniOutliner, QuickBooks for Mac New User Edition, Zinio Reader, Mail, iChat AV, Safari, Sherlock, Address Book, QuickTime, iSync, iCal, DVD Player, Classic environment, Xcode Developer Tools
esp: iMovie, iDVD, GarageBand, QuickBooks
also, if you're using windows that cost should be added in
also, there's the warrantee and online service with the G5.
finally, you left out shipping costs (unless you can get those prices locally)
this narrows the gap somewhat.
Re:Who cares? (Score:5, Interesting)
Sorry, but it used to be true. The G5's are the first systems Apple offered that are a reasonable deal compared to PC's. Honestly, I'd like to see a $1000 machine based on a 1.6ghz G5. Then Apple would really turn some heads.
And Apple monitors, while excellent, are still too pricey. They need a $400 17" DVI-D only model or something.
Look at the iMacs... a 1ghz G4 with a 15" LCD for $1300? I could get a MUCH faster Athlon64 system for that with more RAM and disk space, plus it would be upgradable.
Yeah, you're paying for the software and the "experience", but frankly, most people don't care enough to plunk down the extra cash, and they still have to pay another $200 (or more) for MS Office when cheaper PC's come with it for free.