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New PowerMac G5s: Up to 2.5Ghz, Liquid Cooled 1009

no_demons writes "Apple have just announced the new, completely dual-processor PowerMac G5 lineup. The models all sport an 8x SuperDrive, whilst new the dual-2.5GHz model also features an 'innovative liquid cooled heat sink,' available in July."
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New PowerMac G5s: Up to 2.5Ghz, Liquid Cooled

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  • Re:Bastards (Score:3, Informative)

    by numbski ( 515011 ) * <> on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @09:18AM (#9376096) Homepage Journal

    There's the upgrade process I've been through, btw. Has a full gig of RAM. Waiting for some downtown to clock the FSB up to 133 to match the RAM.

    Meh. I still want my G5! :(
  • how much quieter? (Score:3, Informative)

    by brentlaminack ( 513462 ) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @09:22AM (#9376134) Homepage Journal
    As a result, the Power Mac G5 runs two times quieter than the previous Power Mac G4 enclosure.

    If I recall my log scales correctly, "two times quieter" would equal 3db quieter. Not exactly revolutionary, but a step in the right direction.

  • Re:Clock speed (Score:5, Informative)

    by ThogScully ( 589935 ) <> on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @09:22AM (#9376138) Homepage
    The clock speed is useless to compare different architectures or even different processor lines made by the same manufacturer. So, A G5 running at 2.5GHz can't be compared to an Athlon running at 2.5GHz on clock speed alone, for example.

    But between two otherwise identical G5 chips, it can be assumed the 2.5GHz one will go faster than a 2GHz one. It's essentially the same chip, just running faster.
  • Re:Liquid Cooling (Score:4, Informative)

    by Zog The Undeniable ( 632031 ) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @09:24AM (#9376145)
    It's been done...and more. One guy dumped all the components of his PC in a polystyrene tub full of liquid paraffin, which is pretty much what you're suggesting. However, he also stuck the evaporator of a fridge in there and got the paraffin down to stupidly low temperatures. The disadvantages: it looked crap and it smelt bad.
  • Uh... (Score:1, Informative)

    by Azureflare ( 645778 ) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @09:26AM (#9376168)
    That picture only shows one processor... Cold water in, hot water out, ya know....

    I think it's just a demonstration of the basic principles of water cooling, not an actual in-use G5.

  • Re:Not Much Here (Score:5, Informative)

    by Paulrothrock ( 685079 ) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @09:29AM (#9376198) Homepage Journal
    1) IBM is having trouble getting the G5s built in big enough numbers. It doesn't help that the first XServe G5s are going to Virginia Tech. It sucks they're not up to 3GHz, but it's probably not Apple's fault.
    2) Fast video cards are nice, but if I want a gaming machine I'll get a PS2.
    3) Yes, only 256MB of RAM on the 1.8GHz. You need more, buy it from somewhere else. Apple overprices their RAM

    The real development here is the liquid cooling. It's a big step forward, because this means that they might be able to put faster processors into the Powerbooks, and they'll be ready for 3GHz and faster processors once IBM overcomes the Voodoo Curse.

    I'm a little disappointed, but since I have to save for a wedding, I'm kind of glad they're waiting to release the dual 3GHz. It will be easier to convince my future wife that we need it when we aren't dropping $5000 next week for a payment.

  • by Slowtreme ( 701746 ) <> on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @09:30AM (#9376208) Homepage
    Macs run Windows XP [] a hell of a lot faster than a PC can run Mac OS X [].
  • logarithmic scale (Score:4, Informative)

    by Gothmolly ( 148874 ) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @09:31AM (#9376222)
    Its only 3 dB less. Remember that funky math that we said we'd never use? 2x the noise = +3dB. You can get more difference than this by simply switching your ghetto case fan for a good one. Unless of course Apple MEANT 1/2 the dB, which is a meaningless number w/o a reference: 1/2 the dB of a 6dB source is 3dB, or half the volume. 1/2 the dB of a 50 dB source is more significant.

    So before we all drop to our knees on this one, lets consider the physics.
  • by daveschroeder ( 516195 ) * on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @09:34AM (#9376255)
    ...and multiple fans: Apple does it because they want to keep the machine as quiet as possible while still as cool as possible (as opposed to being forced to do it, lest the processor become hotter than the surface of the Sun).

    (They don't do it because the PowerPC 970 family is "so hot", either; the PowerPC 970, and the 970FX even moreso, run much cooler, and require less power, than even the newest generation PowerPC 74xx (G4) family processors: )

    Also, new PowerPC 970FX information from IBM is now available [].
  • Re:Liquid Cooling (Score:4, Informative)

    by TheGavster ( 774657 ) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @09:36AM (#9376270) Homepage
    Actually the breathing hole in the hard drive is critical to maintaining the cushion of air that the drive heads use to float the couple of microns over the platter surface that they need. If you plug the hole, you've got a good chance of having a hard drive crash in the most literal sense of the phrase when the heads dig into the platters on boot.
  • by stang7423 ( 601640 ) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @09:37AM (#9376285)
    Lets see...

    Adding more Drives....hmmm

    Well there is the firewire route, last time I checked fw800 could handle full DV...

    then there is the fiber channel BTO option with an Xraid, I think 2Gb/s of drive bandwidth will do just fine too.

    If you want to go oldschool you could also add one of those newfangled SCSI U320 cards which would also do a pretty good job with DV as well.

    So I guess the answer to your question is a resonding yes. Since you do (very) high end work then you should be using a very high end storage system like one of the above. If you are a professional and need high bandwidth you shouldn't be relying on apples software raid anyway. But thats just my two cents.
  • by Plutor ( 2994 ) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @09:38AM (#9376297) Homepage
    > > ...the Power Mac G5 runs two times quieter...
    > ...half as many decibels...

    Noise level (bels, often referred to in tenths of bels, or decibels) is a logarithmic measurement, similar to the Richter scale. The number of bels for a given ratio of power levels is calculated by taking the logarithm, to the base 10, of the ratio.
    b = log10(P1/P2)
    b = log10(1/2)
    b ~ -0.3010299956
    So this is actually a reduction of just over three decibels. Doesn't sound like much, but it really is twice as quiet. Gives you more respect for the 20db case fans, eh?
  • Being productive? (Score:3, Informative)

    by HarveyBirdman ( 627248 ) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @09:40AM (#9376323) Journal
    You know, there uses for these 'puter things other than tinkering with the 'puter itself.
  • by bfg9000 ( 726447 ) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @09:45AM (#9376374) Homepage Journal
    Nice specs. I like Apple stuff, but I still honestly don't know why Apple speedbumps are always front page news, especially when we have a dedicated Apple section to deal with minor announcements like hardware releases. Dell, IBM, or HP don't make the front page for every Mhz bump, let alone have their own section on Slashdot.

    I would bet that 99% of us can't name one product from the HP lineup, but can name off the PowerMac, PowerBook, iMac, iPod, iTunes, iBook, etc. even though most of us don't own one and are far more likely to encounter an HP anywhere in the real world. I rarely see tv ads for Apple, and it's even more rare for me to meet another Apple user in the world (ONCE at Starbucks and once at Future Shop) but I read about Apples daily on Slashdot. We are all well acquainted with them due to our exposure here. I have no problem with that; it's better than Windows getting exposure, if only because we need more diversity, but I do have minor doubts as to the editorial discretion which leads to most Apple stories making the front page as well as their subsection.

    Read into this what you will, but if I were HP or Dell, I'd start submitting articles to Slashdot. It's free publicity with a large section of the computer-buying public, and it doesn't seem hard to spin a typical product announcement into a "techie" story that would get accepted as News by the editors.
  • by Lumpy ( 12016 ) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @09:46AM (#9376384) Homepage
    Then simply stick to doing what the rest of us are doing.

    internal drives in the computer are system drives.

    leave the stack of external fiberchannel/scsi drives as the media drives in the raid array.

    works great for AVID when dealing with HD or digitalcinema.

    and I prefer that those 15Krpm drives be external... we have had to RMA 2 of them already this year for failures/ excessive noise from 2 different AVID suites here in the office.

    External media drives are the only way to go.
  • Re:how much quieter? (Score:3, Informative)

    by pe1rxq ( 141710 ) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @09:49AM (#9376408) Homepage Journal
    The human ear isn't linear....
    Thats why volume controls work logarithmic.

  • by Smallpond ( 221300 ) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @09:49AM (#9376416) Homepage Journal
    That would be Fluorinert. Not a bad idea. NASA had a fluorinert-filled heatsink inside a mylar bag that I used once. Geez. Its still here. I need to clean out my desk more often.

  • Re:Why PCI-X? (Score:5, Informative)

    by Silverlancer ( 786390 ) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @09:50AM (#9376419)
    PCI-X is twice as fast as PCI and is a replacement for PCI. PCI-E is a replacement for AGP and is twice as fast as AGP 8x. PCI-Express boards will have multiple PCI-X slots for sound cards, network cards, etc, and one PCI-E slot for the graphics card.
  • by GoRK ( 10018 ) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @09:58AM (#9376496) Homepage Journal
    Well, actually most all of it is done in 2D with OpenGL.

    GL does have a couple 2D Drawing modes, GL_ORTHO, for instance, and cards hardware accelerate them. How do you think games draw their pretty little GUI's and menus and whatnot?

    Interestingly enough, nobody's ever developed a really good benchmark for cards that can accurately compare card performances drawing to ortho's. Maybe 3DMark should include a test like this. I imagine that raw fill rate has the biggest impact here, but who knows what kind of crazy optimizations card manufacturers might have in there to help/hurt the 2D OpenGL performance in favor of the 3D.
  • by RebelWebmaster ( 628941 ) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @09:59AM (#9376505)
    IBM went on record as saying that they underestimated the difficulties of switching to 90nm. There's a lot of current leakage issues with the process that lead to increased heat output from wasted energy.
  • Re:Clock speed (Score:5, Informative)

    by supersnail ( 106701 ) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @10:00AM (#9376514)

    SPEC.ORG doesnt have any recent PowerPC benchmarks, but looking at historical bechmarks (Specint95 on 500Mhz processors) PowerPC has about a 20% higher score than a pentium of the same Mhz.

    I would guess this advantage has increased as PowerPC pipelining and paralellism have improved dramatically since then.

    So a 2.5 GHz PowerPC should be able to crunch numbers better than a 3 GHz Intel.

    The chip also has the advantage of not being constained by the 8080 architecture.

  • by Lispy ( 136512 ) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @10:08AM (#9376589) Homepage
    I must say that I am impressed. I am really not a big apple fan but the company seems to do just the right thing again and again. Starting with USB on the iMac back in 1998 they made a lot of cutting edge decisions wich came into mainstream just because Apple made them successful (WiFi, Firewire, MP3 players, legal musicdownloads, their stereo-wifi-hubbie-thing, TFTs, DVD-Burners) and so on).

    Watercooling has been around for some time but no majorplayer implemented it. I bet that two years from now this could well be standard at Dells, HPs and so on...
  • by UU7 ( 103653 ) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @10:09AM (#9376601)
    Not even close.

    "Mac OS X dynamically adjusts the flow of the fluid and the speed of the fans based on temperature."

    Try reading more carefully, thanks :)
  • No, it is. (Score:5, Informative)

    by TamMan2000 ( 578899 ) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @10:13AM (#9376651) Journal
    Did you look at the page []?

    The schematic clearly shows a closed circuit of pump driven fluid flowing past the CPUs getting heated and then flowing into a heat exchanger (takes the place of a holding tank, and is actually superior too one) with a fan blowing on it. This is exactly like a smaller version of the cooling system in a car. There is no phase change.

    A heat pipe [] is completly different, it is a phase change driven system, and does not involve pumping, or traditional heat exchangers.

  • by mfago ( 514801 ) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @10:17AM (#9376685)
    The new dual 2.5GHz does NOT use a heat pipe! From the webpage [], Apple states

    Apple designed a sophisticated liquid cooling system that takes off the heat without bumping up the noise. Mac OS X dynamically adjusts the flow of the fluid and the speed of the fans based on temperature.

    If it has a pump, it's not a heat pipe.

    BTW, the prior G5 models (and new lower-end models) do use heat pipes.

    What's odd: no pictures of the internals of the liquid-cooled model yet.
  • Re:Why PCI-X? (Score:2, Informative)

    by Ignominious Cow Herd ( 540061 ) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @10:19AM (#9376713) Journal
    Bzzzttt. Thank you for playing.

    PCI express is not just an AGP replacement. It is intended to completely replace PCI. PCI-X is/was a stopgap performance bump for those that needed it. PCI-e is the future.

  • I'm sorry, but you have no idea what you're talking about. Radiators by all laws of physics can only cool down anything going through them to (almost) room temperature. Now the equations you want are that if the radiator can bring the water within 2C of room temperature with one CPU pumping out heat, then with two CPUs it will bring the water about withing 4C. You are correct thout that the second CPU will (obviously) be warmer than the first one.
  • Re:Clock speed (Score:2, Informative)

    by brunogirin ( 783691 ) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @10:28AM (#9376799) Homepage
    RTFA. Apple have a performance comparison chart on the page between Penthium 4, Xeon, AMD and G5 configurations. According to them a dual 2.5GHz G5 is 98% faster (ie nearly twice as fast) as a dual 3.4GHz P4. Of course, they might be biased :-)
  • blah, blah (Score:3, Informative)

    by lingqi ( 577227 ) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @10:29AM (#9376811) Journal
    the liquid you want is called Flourinert. It's ~500 dollars per gallon. If you know people in chip-manufacture industry, you might be able to sneak away with some used ones (capital equipment has their flourinert changed every few monthes, and the used up ones are pretty much the same as new ones anyway (or not different enough to make up a difference of 500 dollars).

    viscosity of oil is pretty bad and flourinert is ok until about -40 degrees.

    or you can, i don't know, buy liquid cooled system like ValuStar TZ [] that had liquid cooling for almost a year now? (Granted, maybe japan only)

    So, can we say that MS copies off apple, but apple actually is copying off of NEC? kind of a hard fact to accept, but innovation would seem to be, erm, not so alive in the US these days...

  • Re:logarithmic scale (Score:5, Informative)

    by Shawn Parr ( 712602 ) <parr@shawnpa r r .com> on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @10:30AM (#9376830) Homepage Journal
    Actually half or double the sound pressure is +/- 6dB.

    Double or half the power is +/- 3dB.

  • Re:No, it is. (Score:5, Informative)

    by TamMan2000 ( 578899 ) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @10:48AM (#9377011) Journal
    Heat pipes are passive. How does that jive with this:

    Mac OS X dynamically adjusts the flow of the fluid...

    To control the flow of the fluid you would need a pump. You could put a valve in it, but that makes no sence, because a heat pipe adjusts it's own flow, passively, based on the heat load.

    I don't disagree that a heat pipe would rock for this, but it is not what is in the Mac.
  • by Brackney ( 257949 ) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @10:55AM (#9377095)
    I was a little upset when I spotted the upgrades early this morning because I just ordered a G5 1.8x2 the day before last. Imagine my delight when I got an email this morning from them offering to let me change my order. So now I'm getting a G5 2x2 for a hundred bucks less. Booyah!
  • by fyonn ( 115426 ) <> on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @10:56AM (#9377113) Homepage
    Am I the only one that would rather have a dedicated controller to handle the fans as opposed to during it in software?

    assuming that the new g5's work the way the current ones do in this regard (and I'm sure they do). the software overrides the hardware. if there is no software to control the speed, then it defaults to full blast.

    if you install linux on a g5 then the fans all run at full because the linux people haven't decoded the fan controllers yet (or hadn't last I looked). and even with osx on it, when you turn it on, the fans blow at full for a short while until bios/osx gets loaded and takes control and brings the speed down.

    so if osx crashes so hard that even low level drivers like that die, then the machine should still not overheat.

  • by the quick brown fox ( 681969 ) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @10:58AM (#9377128)
    Those big air channels don't come without a cost. There is only one external drive bay and two hard drive bays, and three PCI slots.

    A PC case of similar size has maybe four external drive bays and five hard drive bays, and five PCI slots plus an AGP slot.

    A PC case with similar expandability, like the Antec Aria [], is much smaller. (Though the Aria doesn't have two CPUs and can't hold 8 sticks of memory.)

    While the insides of most PC cases may not look neat and tidy, it's child's play to buy or build a quiet, powerful PC that never overheats no matter what the load. So while PC cases may not (in general) have air channels, I'd say they work as well as they need to (though Intel apparently disagrees, since the BTX form factor is coming and is supposed to be designed for airflow).

    I don't think you could reasonably expect a mainstream manufacturer to give up the expandability for an academic increase in cooling efficiency, although Shuttle has clearly demonstrated that at least some people are willing to give up expandibility for a slick form factor.

    The G5's are beautiful though; I wouldn't mind owning one.

  • I JUST BOUGHT ONE! (Score:2, Informative)

    by ZackSchil ( 560462 ) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @11:01AM (#9377156)
    Sorry to brag but I just had to get one! Here's what I got.

    Dual 2.5GHz PowerPC G5
    512MB DDR400 SDRAM (PC3200) - 2x256
    250GB Serial ATA - 7200rpm
    8x SuperDrive (DVD-R/CD-RW)
    ATI Radeon 9800 XT w/256MB DDR SDRAM
    56k V.92 modem
    Bluetooth Module
    AirPort Extreme Card
    Apple Keyboard & Apple Mouse - U.S. English
    Mac OS X - U.S. English
    Accessory kit

    Estimated Total:

    I can't wait!
  • Re:Wow! (Score:3, Informative)

    by grahamlee ( 522375 ) <{iamleeg} {at} {}> on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @11:05AM (#9377208) Homepage Journal
    I meant for the "me want" to be in quotes, and indeed used the HTML quot; symbol. It didn't show up.
  • by vkulkarn ( 4494 ) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @11:21AM (#9377411) Homepage
    Some of the revisions of the old CRT based iMacs were convection cooled. They had no fans at all. The problem with doing that with a mini-tower case is that people tend to put things on top of a mini-tower... which would block the airflow... They got away with it on the iMac because its hard to put stuff on top of its curved top.
  • Re:cool (Score:3, Informative)

    by Bedouin X ( 254404 ) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @11:26AM (#9377469) Homepage
    Dude, if you're going to pay 3K for a Mac, you HAVE to get a cinema display. 17 inches @ 4:3 on that beast is sacrilege.
  • Re:No, it is. (Score:3, Informative)

    by dukerobillard ( 582741 ) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @11:36AM (#9377569)
    As long as the system is engineered to carry away enough heat from the second CPU, this will work fine. In cars, the coolent goes to the various cylinder heads serially, and it's okay.
  • by The Tessellator ( 715507 ) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @11:39AM (#9377609)
    It is likely that Apple's designers were referring to half "the perceived" noise which is accepted to equal 10DB (in fact I think the G5's were about 10-12Db quieter than the G4's)

    Doubling the acoustic energy (in watts) does in result in a 3db measured change in SPL, but that is a barely noticeably change in the (human) perceived volume level. Our ears are not linear devices, that is the reason that differences in loudness (sound pressure level) are represented logarithmically. 1 DB is considered to be so small a change as to be imperceptible (in nearly all cases) even though it represents a significant change in absolute acoustic energy (in watts).

    This points out why it is so difficult to keep things quiet, (and why this was a significant change) you must reduce the acoustic energy tenfold in order to halve the perceived loudness.

    for a quick definition of sound pressure level 06/teces_06.html

  • Re:Liquid Cooling (Score:4, Informative)

    by mgoff ( 40215 ) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @12:05PM (#9377947)
    Actually the breathing hole in the hard drive is critical to maintaining the cushion of air that the drive heads use to float the couple of microns over the platter surface that they need.

    Reference? I don't know of any hard drive where this is the case. The only purpose of the breather hole is for pressure equalization. The heads fly due to the aerodynamics of their physical design-- just like an airplane wing.
  • Re:Who cares? (Score:5, Informative)

    by Paladin128 ( 203968 ) <> on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @12:09PM (#9377995) Homepage
    Ok... here goes... the cheapest dual Opteron system I can build, based on the 1.8ghz Opteron 244:

    Mobo: MSI K8T Master2-FAR $220
    CPU1: AMD Opteron 244, Retail $330
    CPU1: AMD Opteron 244, Retail $330
    DIMM1: 128MB ECC Registered DIMM $ 60
    DIMM1: 128MB ECC Registered DIMM $ 60
    HDA1: WD800JD 7200RPM 80GB SATA $ 75
    VID: GeForceFX 5200 $ 55
    DVD: 8X DVD+/-RW $ 90
    CASE: Lian-Li PC-V1000 $200
    PWR: Antec TRUE430 $ 70
    MISC: keyboard, mouse, fans, etc.$ 50
    total $1540

    So you're talking about a system that's about $1540 pre-shipping (which would probably run close to $100). And that's with the cheapest motherboard and RAM money can buy.

    The dual 1.8ghz machine with otherwise similar specs from Apple is $1999. So you're paying a premium for quality system design and support, and software.
  • by Wesley Felter ( 138342 ) <> on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @12:21PM (#9378152) Homepage
    Linux has had G5 fan control for several months; it works OK in our testing.
  • Re:Clock speed (Score:3, Informative)

    by willy_me ( 212994 ) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @12:24PM (#9378192)
    (I know that to be true for the G4's, not so sure on the G5's)

    You're absolutely right about the G4, and the problem was solved with the G5. In fact, the G5 uses the same bus as an Athlon64 which gives it a pile of bandwidth.

  • not plain old 970's (Score:1, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @12:26PM (#9378218)
    You are wrong:

    Transistors on the PowerPC G5 hold a charge to let the system make logic decisions based on whether the transistor is on or off. Using a 90nm process for even greater performance, IBM builds these devices just .00000009 meters wide on a layer of silicon on insulator. The 58 million transistors themselves are connected by over 400 meters of copper wire that's less than 1/1000th the width of a strand of your hair. Tiny paths mean less time to complete a sequence, since the electrons don't need to travel as far. In other words, the PowerPC G5 is fast
  • Re:Who cares? (Score:5, Informative)

    by wavedeform ( 561378 ) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @12:28PM (#9378240)
    To that you'd have to add the cost of your time to assemble it and install software. I don't know about you, but my consulting rate is high enough that the Mac is already cheaper when assembly time is factored in.

    You wouldn't get a warranty with the Opteron system, not that you get a great one with the Apple, but it's better than nothing.

    OS X is definitely worth something, although if you're coming from a Linux POV you might think that OS's should be free. I'm willing to pay for some ease of use and elegance.

    For my money, the Mac is a better deal, and arguably cheaper.

  • by johnpaul191 ( 240105 ) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @12:28PM (#9378242) Homepage
    the rumor sites picked up on the LCD promo ending 2 days before WWDC (end of June) so they guessed Displays and PowerMacs maybe at the same time....
    they also noted the fine print of the promo listed display by part number, so if a metallic 23inch came out sooner, it would not qualify for the discount per say.

    though looking at the Apple site now i am only seeing a $500 off 23inch LCD with G5 purchase.... so i dont know if i am missing it of only the 23inch is on sale.
  • Re:Not Much Here (Score:5, Informative)

    by TTop ( 160446 ) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @12:36PM (#9378366)
    Tom Boger, Apple's Director of Power Mac Product Marketing:
    "All-in-all, no we are not getting to 3GHz anytime soon" []
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @12:39PM (#9378408)
    Are you certain you have a quad FX-51 box? I'm pretty darn certain that you can only get a quad Opteron box. The FX-51 is not pin compatible with the Opteron and there are no quad FX-51 motherboards, only quad Opteron motherboards. You're such a liar.
  • Re:Who cares? (Score:3, Informative)

    by Colazar ( 707548 ) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @12:41PM (#9378439)
    The G5's are the first systems Apple offered that are a reasonable deal compared to PC's.

    That's true if you're only looking at the desktop side. On the laptop side, Macs have been a good deal for about the last 3 years (when the dual-USB iBooks were introduced).

  • yes, It is! (Score:5, Informative)

    by Viceice ( 462967 ) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @12:43PM (#9378479)
    Excuse me, but it IS a heat pipe and it's NOT pump driven.

    FYI, I did RTFA and see this:

    This system provides a continuous flow of thermally conductive fluid that transfers heat from the processors as they work harder. The heated fluid then flows through a radiant grille, where air passing over cooling fins returns the fluid to its original temperature.

    That is clearly how a heat pipe works.

    Furthermore, in relation to your question to another poster:

    Mac OS X dynamically adjusts the flow of the fluid...

    To control the flow of the fluid you would need a pump. You could put a valve in it, but that makes no sence, because a heat pipe adjusts it's own flow, passively, based on the heat load.

    They did do it without a pump. And it's still a heat pipe. Heres how:

    Mac OS X dynamically adjusts the flow of the fluid and the speed of the fans based on temperature.

    By adjusting the speed of the fan that blows air through the radiant grille, they can control the cooling efficiency of the radiant grille.

    So with the dynamically changed airflow, which in turn changes the temperature, the result will be a change in the pressure in the area covered by radiant grille within the closed system. This will cause a change in the speed at which the fluid flows.

    Hence, Mac OS X dynamically adjusts the flow of the fluid

    Read it properly next time and apply some common sense... Oh wait, this is Slashdot..
  • Re:Who cares? (Score:3, Informative)

    by dcarey ( 321183 ) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @01:09PM (#9378823) Homepage
    Honestly, I'd like to see a $1000 machine based on a 1.6ghz G5. Then Apple would really turn some heads.

    The g5 iMacs are on schedule to be released in 2 weeks at the WWDC. Is this what you're asking for?

    You know that being said, I'm not sure if I ever care if Apple's prices are cheapened or not. I mean, think of it in this analogy - I love BMWs, always have. I am making a crazy attempt to save for one which will or will not ever come to fruition. But do I want BMW to come out with a $16,000 car (mini coopers do not count) that skimps on some of the quality? No, that, my friend, is not a BMW.

    Part of the price included in Apple's products is research and development for its sleek designs. I would not have it any other way.

    Yeah, you're paying for the software and the "experience", but frankly, most people don't care enough to plunk down the extra cash,

    I do, and have since 1993. There are many that feel the same. It's just a matter of preference, there is no "correct" computer purchase.

  • Re:Who cares? (Score:5, Informative)

    by MaestroRC ( 190789 ) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @01:15PM (#9378901) Homepage
    You wouldn't get a warranty with the Opteron system, not that you get a great one with the Apple, but it's better than nothing.

    Apple has by far the best warranty experience that I have ever encountered. All systems come with 90 days phone support ("I can't get OSX to do this" or "my machine is doing this") and a full year of hardware support, over the phone ("shit broke"). I have a Powerbook G4 I bought in August of last year, and the 2 times I had to call support on it (once for the screen, it was a known manufacturing issue with the 15"s at the time, the other to fix the casing that wasn't reassembled properly, just a bit loose was all, nothing major) I was on the phone for a total of less than 10 minutes, calling during "peak" times, and was on hold for less than 30 seconds before I was talking to a Mac Genious (Apple's tech people, not someone just reading off of a screen prompt). When I got off the phone, a box was on it's way to me and arrived the next day to send it in for repair, and I got the machine back a day and a half later. No computer company that I know of, except for business-grade support can match that. And Apple's AppleCare warranty, which extends phone support and hardware warranty to 3 years, is only ~$250, which is cheaper than about any level of support that anyone else offers, and for a hell of a lot better service

  • by TheRaven64 ( 641858 ) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @01:27PM (#9379079) Journal
    NIC? PowerMacs and PowerBooks have had gigabit ethernet on board for years...
  • by henryhbk ( 645948 ) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @01:36PM (#9379209) Homepage
    I think the language is ambigous, if you read the spec sheet (pdf []) the language is specifically The liquid cooling system is also controlled by Mac OS X, which dynamically adjusts the flow of the fluid and the speed of the fans based on the amount of heat being generated.". This would imply that the flow is not controlled by changing the fan speed. While your technical description seems correct given the picture, the language is a tad more confusing. We'll have to wait and see when apple puts out a more technical document on how it works.
  • by Malor ( 3658 ) * on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @01:50PM (#9379340) Journal
    That's only partially right. You are confusing the energy being generated with the perceived loudness of a sound, which is quite different.

    Your figures are correct for actual power output. However, a sound 10db higher, 10 times as much energy, is perceived as being only twice as loud. Each 10db increase doubles the sound volume, but increases the energy required by 10 times. That's why a really loud stereo takes so much power; to make a sound 4 times louder, it takes 100 times as much energy. 8 times as loud requires a THOUSAND times as much energy.

    The reverse is true.... to cut the apparent loudness of your case fans by half, engineers have to drop the amount of generated noise by 10 times. One fourth as loud is 1/100th the original energy. So it really does give you an appreciation for a case that is 20db quieter than another.

    So Apple's actual claims could be either 'energy' or 'loudness'. They say it is 'two times quieter', which I perceive as typical marketspeak bafflegab. It's hard to interpret. If the correct interpretation is 'half as loud', then the G5 is at -10db and is generating 1/10th as much sound energy. If it is 'half as much energy', then it's about 3db as you state, and would be perceived as slightly quieter.

    Judging from how hard they're pushing this feature, I'm suspicious it's the former... people would be angry if their $3K computer didn't really sound half as loud.
  • by kitzilla ( 266382 ) <> on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @03:43PM (#9380755) Homepage Journal
    if you install linux on a g5 then the fans all run at full because the linux people haven't decoded the fan controllers yet (or hadn't last I looked) ...

    Yeah, Terrasoft (Yellow Dog Linux) has the fan thing down. Their new 64-bit Fedora port, the inexplicably named Y-HPC [], is just about ready for commercial release.

    As an aside, it appears YDL is just days or a week or two from shipping Yellow Dog Linux 4. It will be KDE 3.2,, RPM Package Manager 4.3, gcc 3.3, and kernel 2.6.6. The Apple hardware support has always been excellent.

  • by falcon5768 ( 629591 ) <Falcon5768@comca ... t minus language> on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @03:50PM (#9380852) Journal
    why cut out the apple, you can buy a whole clear side to the G5 at macskins
  • Re:Liquid Cooling (Score:4, Informative)

    by dex22 ( 239643 ) <[moc.liamg] [ta] [resucitsalp]> on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @04:20PM (#9381200) Homepage
    Reference? I don't know of any hard drive where this is the case. The only purpose of the breather hole is for pressure equalization. The heads fly due to the aerodynamics of their physical design-- just like an airplane wing.

    Ummm, no. The heads are stationary relative to the airflow. They move across the platter or are stationary. They are not shaped to be aerodynamic, and actually cause a lot of air turbulence when they move.

    What makes the head float over the platter is laminar flow. This is the tendency of air to stick to the platter. This creates a molecules thick layer of fast-moving air that generally spirals out from the center of the platter to the outside, turning in the direction of the platter's rotation. As this flow is faster than the surrounding air, it draws the head closer to the platter. As the head gets very close, the laminar flow slows, until equilibrium is reached and the head floats stably.

    The primary reason why most hard drives cannot be used above 10,000ft is because air pressure gets low enough for tolerance limits to be reached.

    The primary purpose of the vent hole is to allow the drive to equalize pressure. Variations of pressure cause the case to flex, which can affect the head alignment against the platters.

    Hope this helps...

  • Re:Liquid Cooling (Score:3, Informative)

    by Moofie ( 22272 ) <> on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @04:28PM (#9381281) Homepage
    The notion that you're looking for is "boundary layer", not laminar flow. Laminar flow is the opposite of turbulent flow, and you won't find it inside a hard drive.

    Consider a coordinate system fixed to an airplane wing. Immediately at the surface of the wing, the airflow is stationary with respect to the wing skin. As you move farther away from the skin, the air moves faster and faster wrt the wing skin. If you consider the coordinate system fixed to the ground, the air far from the wing is more or less stationary (ignoring wind and the like) and the air close to the wing is moving at the speed of the aircraft.

    So, the heads are not stationary relative to the airflow. The air is moving more or less at the speed of the platters (in a spiral like pattern as you described). The heads fly through this (pretty high speed) airflow.

    The rest of your post is pretty well spot on.
  • Re:Who cares? (Score:3, Informative)

    by Twirlip of the Mists ( 615030 ) <> on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @04:56PM (#9381593)
    I agree with you, but you left out something important: the 10 day "no questions asked here's another one" policy.

    If you buy your Apple product (Mac, iPod, monitor, whatever) at an Apple retail store and you have ANY kind of problem with it at all in the first 10 days, take it back and they're GIVE YOU ANOTHER ONE RIGHT THERE ON THE SPOT.

    This has happened to me twice. The first time, I had to send my 17" Studio Display in to have the backlight repaired. I took it to my local Apple Store so they could take care of the logistics of shipping and receiving and all that poop. When it came back 2 days later, it had a scratch right in the middle of the screen. I showed it to the guy at the Genius Bar, and he handed me a brand new Studio Display right there. I took it home.

    The second time, it happened to my girlfriend's PowerBook. She bought it, then after the first week noticed a problem with the graphics card. While she was at work I returned it for her, and came home with a brand new one.

    You don't get that kind of service often.
  • Re:Who cares? (Score:3, Informative)

    by MoneyT ( 548795 ) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @07:17PM (#9382669) Journal
    Not going to happen. And for a reason. It's against apple philosophy.

    When Steve jobs first came back to Apple they had a myriad of different computers with just about everything you could want, and some stuff you didn't. The problem was, you didn't know which one to buy. There were literaly too many choices, too much differentiation.

    Steve came back and wipped the whole thing and said from now on, Apple was going to do things simple, and they would do it by redesigning the line into 4 groups. Entry desktop, entry laptop, pro desktop, pro laptop. And the 4 catagories were born. iBook, iMac, PowerMac, PowerBook. Originaly each one only had 3 options, fast faster and fastest (though that has since been uped to about 4 options) and the idea was that you could just go to the store, and buy exactly what you were looking for in teh range you were looking for it. More advanced users could customize them if they so chose.

    The headless g5 mini would add a whole new catagory that would need a complimenting laptop line to go with it. Further more, it would further complicate the line, as now the line between low end / entry and high end / pro would become even more blury, which is exactly what Apple wants to avoid.

    Provide choices, but make the distinctions between the choices clear. It's a hell of alot easier to explain the differenced between the i series and the power series than it is to explain the differences between say the dell dimensions
  • I suggest refurb (Score:2, Informative)

    by Alpha_Geek ( 154209 ) on Thursday June 10, 2004 @03:34PM (#9391085) Homepage
    I just ordered a refurbed 2.0Ghz G5 earlier today for $2000. I've been waiting for this rev because I knew the refurb prices would drop.

    This will be my third refurb purchase from Apple. My first two were a 12" Powerbook and a 20GB iPod. I've been very happy with both (althought the iPod battery life has degraded a bit after a year). Apple refurbs have all exterior components replaced, so they at least appear brand new. They also have the same 1 year warranty as new products. If you are paranoid you can also purchase applecare contracts for refurbed items.

    I highly recommend purchasing refurbed Apple products if you want significant savings off the retail price.

    I saved:
    iPod ($400 retail - $280 refurb) = $120
    12"PB ($1600 retail - $1200 refurb) = $400
    G5 ($2500 retail - $2000 refurb) = $500

    So then, so far I have saved $1,020 by purchasing refurbished Apple products rather than buying new.

"I prefer the blunted cudgels of the followers of the Serpent God." -- Sean Doran the Younger