Is Your Computer Leaking Toxic Dust? 372
n0alpha writes "A recent study by scientists at the University of Washington suggests that computers emit dangerous chemicals. Specifically, chemicals called PBDEs (poly-brominated-diphyenyl ethers) found in the household dust that collects on your monitor and keyboard could pose a health threat. Scientists say the chemicals have caused developmental and learning defects in laboratory animals and may pose a threat to people and animals. 'It's critical we phase these materials out,' said Suellen Mele, Citizens for Resource Conservation. And some companies are doing just that."
'dats a rhetorical question... (Score:3, Interesting)
Is Your Computer Leaking Toxic Dust?
Being that they found these toxins on every computer sampled... As an aside, does anyone know what causes "New Computer Smell"? Obviously chemicals but what ones?
Re:'dats a rhetorical question... (Score:4, Insightful)
new computer smell' I get is from NewEgg's packing materials. If you're referring to something like what a new Dell smells like, I have no idea. If it's anything like a car's new smell it's probably some volatile compounds left over from the plastic manufacturing.
Re:'dats a rhetorical question... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:'dats a rhetorical question... (Score:2, Funny)
Re:'dats a rhetorical question... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:'dats a rhetorical question... (Score:2)
I think the odor might be a clue as to what causes the religious Mac zealotry in Mac users...
Re:'dats a rhetorical question... (Score:4, Informative)
I like that smell. But maybe it's just because the brain cells it kills cause my brain to release pleasure stimulating endorphins.
Poor lab rats... (Score:5, Funny)
Is it just me or does everything kill lab rats?
TOOTHPICKS FOUND TO CAUSE DEATH IN LAB RATS
Scientists have discovered that force feeding lab rats 50,000 toothpicks caused death in 99.9% of cases studied. The one rat that survived eventually died from starvation.
"This proves that toothpicks are dangerous and should have warnings printed on them," said Bob T. Scientist, one of the researchers who turned mice into twiching pincushions.
The FDA has yet to comment on this story.
I tire of it (Score:3, Funny)
*sigh* (Score:4, Funny)
people... *life* is dangerous... deal with it
Re:*sigh* (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:*sigh* (Score:2, Funny)
Re:*sigh* (Score:5, Insightful)
Soon we will be bathing in extra strength bleach, drinking pool water (we basically do), and using disposable/burnable everything.
The more that we try to "fight" bacteria the more our civilization becomes prone to simple infection.
Re:*sigh* (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:*sigh* (Score:4, Insightful)
You have to weigh the risks, though. Peru took that study to heart and stopped chlorinating their tap water, thereby saving an estimated 180 people out of a population of 18,000,000. The result? 600,000 cases of cholera with 4,000 deaths. It's not limited to Peru, either. The epidemic spread through Latin America and in a 6 year period there were more than 1.3 million cases and over 11,000 deaths.
Re:*sigh* (Score:3, Funny)
Oh!
BAN DHMO (Score:4, Funny)
These toxins are produced with DHMO [dhmo.org]!
SUPPORT A BAN ON DHMO! [dhmo.org]
"It's a moral imperative."
I'm glad... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:I'm glad... (Score:2)
some of us are a tad more concerned (Score:4, Insightful)
I know you all think that's really funny, but as someone who's done a fair amount of desktop support, I've cleaned many a keyboard/monitor and especially CPU by dusting with a can of air. Which has usually generated a huge plume of dust. Which I've certainly inhaled quite a bit of.
So pardon as I act a little more concerned than you, because this reads much like the stories from 60 year old guys with lung cancer who worked in asbestos plants and whatnot. "Sure, there was all this stuff flying around, but hey, we thought, 'its just dust'" etc.
Re:I'm glad... (Score:2)
Death.... (Score:4, Funny)
Hrmph! (Score:3, Funny)
Yeah right... (Score:4, Funny)
Crap....
Re:Yeah right... (Score:2, Funny)
As an added note (Score:2, Funny)
That being said...
RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!!
Dangerous (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Dangerous (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Dangerous (Score:2)
Eating wears out your jawbones? (Score:2)
glow (Score:3, Funny)
Toxic, it's such a harsh word, how about "Not encouraging to one's health"
In RTFA, I saw that... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:In RTFA, I saw that... (Score:4, Interesting)
Just look at what a single factory dumps in the air. I'd be more worried about that.
Re:In RTFA, I saw that... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:In RTFA, I saw that... (Score:2)
Headline: TOXIC COMPUTERS CATCH FIRE, KILL CHILDREN AND SENIORS!
Re:In RTFA, I saw that... (Score:4, Insightful)
In case you don't realize, not everything needs to be made of plastic. There was once this material called 'metal' (pronounced me' tal). Many metals are quite fire resistant. Computers, keyboards, and mice could easily be made of such a material.
Re:In RTFA, I saw that... (Score:2, Insightful)
Yes, quite tasty metals, such as lead, aluminum, and cadmium.
Can I be the first to have that cool mercury trackball?
Re:In RTFA, I saw that... (Score:3, Informative)
They could be made from such a material. Not 'easily', though. Not in the sense that they can be made 'easily' with moulded plastic.
And not inexpensively. Personally, I think modern plastics are *way* underrated for the quality of life they've given us. This is
Re:In RTFA, I saw that... (Score:2)
No, but we can probably get by without fire-retardant in all our products.
Re:In RTFA, I saw that... (Score:2)
Re:In RTFA, I saw that... (Score:2)
Lifespan in 1800's (Score:2)
Legislation (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Legislation (Score:5, Informative)
Penta- and octa-BDE (PBDE and OBDE) are the most toxic and will be banned in the entire EU come august (not yet banned here in Sweden, sorry for the irresponsible, blatant lie).
Deca-BDE will not be banned in EU yet, but Sweden is working on getting a national ban (and trying to get EU to ban DBDE as well).
I sit corrected.
In other news... (Score:3, Insightful)
Seriously, every week we hear about the risks of eating too many carbs and then studies proving otherwise. We hear about why we should buy this and do that. Now we'll start hearing about new improved "Air filters" that remove the new threat of "PBDE"...Only four monthly payments of $69.99! These companies will start cropping up, the moment this story hits the local news channels.
Its kind of sad, but I don't trust most funded scientific studies anymore, they all seem out to snatch our dollar for some other ulterior motive.
Re:In other news... (Score:2)
Did you know the sky CAN fall in some places? On May 10, 1996, 8 climbers died on Mt Everest when the stratosphere sank down on to the summit.
Source: news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=601612004
Ulterior motives (Score:2)
Re:In other news... (Score:2)
Also, if you act now you can SmartBuy my new AntiSkyFaller for 3 easy paments of just 49.99. That's $20 less than your air filter. Call now.
Re:In other news... (Score:5, Interesting)
As far as I can tell, nobody can really tell for sure that they are bad for us now. I haven't been able to find any health effects on humans, and the studies I have found are limited to lab mice and don't appear to be conclusive (IANA biologist). If someone could point me towards something a little more conclusive I would appreciate it.
I'm not saying there definitely isn't a problem, but at the very least it looks like we need more research. There's enough bad science going on now to make me skeptical of any health warnings printed in major news media, and the article takes it as a given that PDBE's are toxic to humans while only really reporting that they are present in computers.
It's true!!!! (Score:3, Funny)
Think of the children!!
Re:It's true!!!! (Score:5, Interesting)
What I want to know is if the "dust" is left on the item from manufacture, or if the "dust" is regular houshold dust which leeches chemicals from any exposed surface. The first one you can hope to clean off, the second one you can't. I did read a version of the article linked from the Yahoo new site (not sure how different it is from the article mentioned here). But in the article that I read, they just found dust, and apparently made no effort to determine the source, or if cleaning a new computer would help.
And if chemicals are being emitted by every available surface, are any airborne, or do they need a carrier such as dust in order to travel?
If the resudue can be cleaned off of the parts, what is a safe cleaner to use on a motherboard?
At least I am glad that I have already decided on an Antec server case which has air filters over the intake fans in the front. If I do find a way to clean off the mobo and other internal electronics, then I might be able to keep dust off of the inside of the case.
Re:It's true!!!! (Score:5, Insightful)
Secondly the "chemicals may be emitted" phrase IS valid. Have you ever heard of a moth ball? There is not chemical reaction there, but vapors are present? It is a physical process called "sublimation." Sublimation is NOT a chemical process, but it does happen. Look it up.
Whenever you smell ANYTHING, it is because either particles or chemicals are in the air. So your theory of chemical reactions is false. Anything which can vaporize will emit chemicals. Plus, the problem is worse if there are porous materials saturated with a volatile chemical (volatile meaning that it can emite a vapor).
As far as cleaning everything first (if that would work), I am not worried about myself, but my children. I feel free to gamble a little with my life, but not those of my kids.
Also, using an air filter on the air intakes of my computer is a step to keep dust out. On my old PC, I found dust around the I/O connectors on my sound card, around the edges of the CD-Rom drives, etc. Then I installed an intake fan and found dust on all of the fans, and all over the processor heat sink. So I decided that I wanted filters to help keep the system running cool, and NOT for health reasons. But if the dust is the problem, then no dust in = no dust out. As simple as that.
If this turns out to be a threat that cannot be controlle, that I am happy to live with it. I am not getting paranoid here. I am still getting my computer. But if I can remove even a minor source of chemials easily, I will do so. If not, then I will just live with it and not worry about it. There is a difference between taking sensible precautions if possible, and spreading panic. Douglas Adams would be proud of me
UW? (Score:2, Interesting)
Good to know it's not just the lead paint in my apartment.
btw, that article doesn't mention the university of washington at all. Google doesn't seem to think they have anything, either [google.com]
Already there. (Score:4, Insightful)
Everything is bad those days (Score:2, Interesting)
If I recon correctly, gasoline fumes contains beneze. Have we stopped using gas ? I think not.
Everything is a question of risk. Just going outside is a health risk. Let's stop panicking for a while. We all gotta die of something.
Re:Everything is bad those days (Score:3, Informative)
No, but most western countries have put limits on the amount of benzene permissible in gasoline, eg: USA [doe.gov], Canada [justice.gc.ca], etc.
/.ers (Score:2)
And just how many grams per mouse did it take?? (Score:4, Insightful)
Who needs cases anyway? It's a lot easier to change the configuration on my machines if I don't have to mess with those pesky cases anyway.
"Do the Right Thing. It will gratify some people and astound the rest." - Mark Twain
Fasion Statement! (Score:2)
Now I can have an accessory to go with my Tinfoil Hat, a matching TINFOIL GASMASK. Who said nerds had no fashion sense!
Re:And just how many grams per mouse did it take?? (Score:2)
Computers will kill us all (Score:4, Funny)
Computers
1.Cause neurological damage
2.Cause your eyes to go semi blind.
3.Cause you to become lazy and fat
Am I missing anything here?
The website has plenty of propaganda (Score:4, Informative)
If you eat your pets, you have more problems then just PBDEs
Now the accumilate of this chemical through birds is worrysome, just like what has been happeenign with Mecury and Pesticides, but how much of the article is just scare tactics of few to frighten many?
As all things, before anyone becomes overly worried, research. Afterall it takes some odd 100+ cans of diet Dr pepper with saccharine a day to get possible cancer.
Then again, I could be mis-informed
Re:The website has plenty of propaganda (Score:3, Informative)
- What about the flavor enhancers, dyes, preservatives, and other such synthetic 'foods' which we eat daily?
- What about the horemones, pesticides, and animal drugs which we eat whenever we consume meat?
- What about the pesticides we eat whenever we consume even non-processed fruits?
- What about the polution from combusted petrolium?
- What about the mercury that is now all-too-present in nearly all fish?
- What about the chlorine and
Understood (Score:2)
My point was that, although serious in that it does poison, it may not do so unless somehow the things you eat contain the chemicals, and unless you are eating animals in the wild, like fish (Which I sadly I am a catch and release fisherman for this reason now), you would not come into eating the chemicals unless you lick your computer monitor, or d
Further proof (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Further proof (Score:3, Funny)
You can joke but... (Score:5, Interesting)
Health care people also have increasing rates of autistic children, and at the same time their work environment has become increasingly technical (higher end imaging systems etc) I have not seen breakouts on different professions, expect more studies to follow.
I have four friends with recently diagnosed autistic kids, Parents: radiation technician, nurse, medical equipment technician, programmer, data administrator.
The fall of the Roman empire was attributed partly to the fact that the wealthy and affluent would drink wines out of lead vessels while the poor drank from animal sacks. The wealthy and powerful ended up poisoning their minds and allowed the barbarians to overun them. We may be doing the exact same thing with technology.
Those who do not learn from history are destined to repeat it.
Re:You can joke but... (Score:5, Interesting)
In the case of Silicon Valley, I read an article that talked about the fact that there are an unusually high number of children with Asperger syndrome (a mild form of autism). Since people with Asperger are still fairly functional in society but have some quirks (like the inability to understand that not everyone sees things the same way they do), some scientists believe that a lot of geeks may actually have undiagnosed Asperger's. Once you concentrate enough people with this syndrome/genetic predisposition for it and then they start raising families of their own...
Which is not to say that there are no other causes, just that they may not be environmental. The fact of the matter is that no one really understands autism.
Re:You can joke but... (Score:2)
The doctor who diagnosed the separation anxiety said that autism has become the ADD of this decade. If you can't find a reasonable answer, it must be autism.
Re:You can joke but... (Score:3, Funny)
Correlation does not prove causation.
I have four friends with recently diagnosed autistic kids, Parents: radiation technician, nurse, medical equipment technician, programmer, data administrator.
Nor does anecdotal evidence.
Silicon VAlley has many toxic waste sites (Score:2)
I knew about TRIS in pajamas (Score:2)
But I didn't realize that spontaneous computer combustion during shipment was a problem that needed a solution. Dockworker carelessly flicks a cigarette into a pile of computers and they go up like California sage brush? Who knew?
Think how your intellect is affected. (Score:3, Interesting)
Patent expired (Score:4, Insightful)
Too cynical ?
Dust ON computers? (Score:5, Interesting)
I have found, however, that computers make excellent dust accumulators. PBDEs are not only used in computers, but also in children's pajamas, mattresses, etc. - all of which generate large quantities of dust. If there are harmful flame retardant chemicals in the dust, wouldn't that have more to do with the mattress, furniture, and clothing than it would with the computer?
Re:Dust ON computers? (Score:2)
CDC FAQ on PBBs and PBDEs (Score:4, Informative)
Either way, I guess we should all stop licking our monitors and keyboards just in case.
Re:CDC FAQ on PBBs and PBDEs (Score:2)
Maybe this will finally make it happen... (Score:2)
I hope they do some followup research on the things hiding in my keyboard.
toxic sensationalism (Score:2)
Take another look at the second article in the original post. Their tests were measured in pg/cm^2. Picograms. As in 10^-12 grams. It's gonna take a while for the compounds to accumulate to toxic levels (on the order of mg/kg body weight).
Also, remember that the PBDEs are primarily used as cleaners and anti-flammability agents in the manufacturing processes of many electronics. They're not being created by your monitors (i.e., there's a finite amount of them per piece of computer equipment, so they'll
fireproof computers? (Score:2)
If so, I've never found it to be very effective with equipment that I've owned.
Re: (Score:2)
Phase out dust (Score:2)
Yeah. (Score:2)
I sure hope so. I'd like it to kill me before my job does. At least my death would be caused by something I like.
Anyone read Stephenson's "Zodiac"? (Score:2)
So, how does the hazard of the dust from the two computers and eight laptops in my office compare to the hazard of the fumes from the new carpet and fresh paint that my boss insisted on?
Yeah, I kinda thought so.
harmful to rats? (Score:2)
How many of us lick their keyboards or computer cases anyway? Is there scientific study around that?
Doing something (Score:2, Insightful)
What really irks me is that these chemicals aren't even needed - flame retardants are used because US companies fear getting sued if someone's monitor catches fire and burns down the building.
It appears that in their "quest for safety", or "liability shield" in corporate-speak, they've actually made their products more hazardous.
Quite frankly, I'm sick of the "We must do something" approach. This is the same thinking that led to:
Re:Doing something (Score:3, Insightful)
ABS may make the distance to stop your car slightly greater in dry weather, if you can brake like Niki Lauda or Michael Schumacher.
I know I pretty much can't do that, so I'll gladly slam on the brakes as hard as I can, and let the computer figure it out, I guarantee you that I'll stop faster that way.
Dose makes the poison (Score:2)
Paracelsus (1493-1541), Father of Toxicology
The scientists in the studies reported their results in units of picograms per cm2. So they found from basicaly nothing, to slightly more than nothing - their maximim combined concentration of the brominated flame retardants was about 300 picograms, or 300 x 10e-12 g/cm2, or 3x10e-10
People AND animals? (Score:2)
Uhh, Newsflash -- People are animals. Homo sapiens to be exact.
Very surprised... (Score:4, Insightful)
Anyone here have exposed their kids to PB based paint? Anyone here use any DDT on their lawn this year?
These chemicals are cummulative and the damage cannot be undone. Let's hope these kind of studies continue to educate law makers.
We really shouldn't be so lax about infant technology that hasn't been fully explored.
Re:Very surprised... (Score:2)
Funny you should mention. While lead is indeed a Very Toxic Substance, as it turns out the whole DDT issue itself was the result of FUD spreading fearmongers. [junkscience.com]
How to Detect PBDE on Your Equipment (Score:2, Funny)
Some numbers and thoughts... (Score:5, Informative)
Their wipe tests were performed after dust was allowed to accumulate for at least five days. Let's suppose that I regularly remove and ingest the dust from 200 cm^2 of my computer. That would be licking the dust off about thirty square inches of my computer's case.
In that case, I'm being exposed to 40 ng per week, or about 2 micrograms per year. That's about 0.1 mg over the course of my lifetime--a tenth of a milligram.
A recent literature review(1) (abstract [nih.gov] and full text [nih.gov]) gives a threshold for toxicity due to octa-BDE (the most toxic compounds studied in the wipe tets) as 2 mg/kg (fetal toxicity/teratongenicity, rat and rabbit models.)
The most toxic compound being phased out (penta-BDE; not measured in the wipe tests) affects neurobehavioural development from 0.6 mg/kg (rat and mouse models.)
The carcinogenicity of these compounds is not well-characterized, however any effects seem to appear at much higher exposures that one would expect in the real world.
In other words, these compounds bear watching and the fact that they are bioaccumulative is troubling--but they're definitely not something to panic about. I'd also be more concerned about ingestion from other sources--bioaccumulations in fish and eggs--rather than from your computer hardware. Those problems, in turn, can be addressed through proper disposal of retired computer equipment.
(1) Darnerud PO. "Toxic effects of brominated flame retardants in man and in wildlife." Environ. Int. 29(6):841-53 (2003).
A little sanity from The Reg's article-- (Score:5, Insightful)
'Nuff said.
Re:Uh oh... (Score:2)
No, but once the EPA does a study, a massive program will go forth to fit toxic gas collectors on all persons that violate those pollution guidelines.
We can look forward to having to wear inspections stickers stating we are all compliant with these standards.
I don't want to think too much about how those inspection stations will operate.
The life you save... (Score:5, Interesting)
Let me give you a *painful* personal example. Three years ago, my six year old son was diagnosed with Autism - a genetic defect that may in fact be linked to chemicals such as these.
It would really piss me off to find that my career was directly responsible for his condition. My wife sent me this article before even Slashdot picked it up and it got me thinking about it.
It's all water under the bridge now, but my son's condition has affected our lives in countless ways including the decision not to have children in the future.
It also made me wonder about this article on Wired:
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/asperge
It's how Silicon Valley has the highest rates of Autism in the country. Maybe it's not so much who you mate with, but in what environment...
Re:The life you save... (Score:2)
Then you shouldn't blame yourself. Blame civilization, technology, future, computers, damn internet, industries, plastic. Hell! Why not medecine too.
I mean no harm or disrespect. It's just that, you know... your son would probably never have been born if you would not have this job. Or maybe he would be alive, but with lungs cancer instead, because you'd be working in an asbestos mine.
My point is, we cann
Re:The life you save... (Score:5, Interesting)
And you are right, I probably wouldn't change my profession, but you have to wonder what might have been in other circumstances nonetheless. I may not blame the technology - but I do blame unscruplulous corporations who have been known to hide the true dangers of the stuff they hawk.
All I'm saying is that:
a) People working in this field need to consider the possible risks.
b) If, in the future, a company is found to have violated some sort of environmental laws they need to be nailed to the wall - big time.
Re:The life you save... (Score:4, Insightful)