A Different Take On PC Manus' 'Recycling' Schemes 179
Timex writes "Linux Devices is reporting that the COO of Linux startup Symbio Technologies, Roger Del Russo, claims that the recycling programs of Dell and HP are nothing more than a means of getting older systems out of use, to be replaced by newer systems. Mr Del Russo then makes the case for putting the older systems to good use as thin clients, using the Linux Terminal Server Project."
LTSP (Score:3, Informative)
Re:LTSP (Score:2, Interesting)
Teaching Old Systems New Tricks (Score:3, Interesting)
Seriously though, this sounds like it might be a decent idea. There's nothing wrong with using old systems for something... how many people out there run their old 486DXs as firewalls or NATs, honestly? Probably quite a few...
And, if ANYthing can turn an old system into something new and useful, it would have to be Linux. For all the griping about it, it's far superior to any Microsoft product when it comes to custom built applications (not the program types, thats another story) for hardware... way to go!
Oh, and I think this MIGHT be a FP... not sure
Re:Teaching Old Systems New Tricks (Score:1)
Vector Linux 4.0
Latest version of Apache 1.3.x
PHP
mod_perl
MySql
Your welcome to Slashdot me http://johnp.opendns.be/ [opendns.be]
Re:Teaching Old Systems New Tricks (Score:2)
Comment removed (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
Nice but not cheap (Score:5, Funny)
Using old PCs as Linux stations is a great idea, but when you include the $699 licensing fee it can add up quickly.
"Recycling" (Score:5, Interesting)
A former colleague of mine tells me there is now a skip in the loading bay, full of Dell desktop and laptop machines. These are going back to be "recycled".
They could have sold the laptops two or three times over, but these machines must go back to Dell because "they're 70% recyclable". As this chap pointed out, surely if they were sold they'd be 100% recyclable. Which does indeed beg the question, is recycling really the aim here?
Re:"Recycling" (Score:1, Informative)
Re:"Recycling" (Score:1)
Re:"Recycling" (Score:3, Interesting)
There's a lot of people here have commented that they use older systems in various situations, and I do to, but lets face it, we're special cases. We did it because we could and we already know what to do. The majority of people on the other hand don't and so I think its a good thin
Re:"Recycling" (Score:3, Interesting)
I see this sort of top-down recycling program as a tendency (won't go so far as to call it a conspiracy) to keep 'free'
Re:"Recycling" (Score:2, Insightful)
Reuse, Repair, Recycle.
Re:"Recycling" (Score:3, Interesting)
One thing I noticed is DELL wants your old printer. My wife got a new DEL with an all in one printer. They included instructions to use the printer box to ship your old printer for re-cycling. They even included a pre-paid return shipping label. I think they want you to buy the ink from them.
I decided to do research on it. The cartridges do not state how much ink they hold or estimated page yield. You can't buy DELL ink in any retail store. The prices were ab
Seems fishy, what are their real motives? (Score:1, Insightful)
When I worked at a Gateway store (Score:3, Informative)
A good idea but... (Score:4, Insightful)
Sure, you can use PINE or tin on an older PC without problems. Sure, you can try and shift the computing and processing burden away from the (thin) client. That, however, won't make the end users happy. They are accustomed to a certain level of usability, both regarding speed and user interface. People just plain don't want to deal with anything other - or less - than what they're used to.
So, whilst there are still applications for older systems as thin clients you're mostly limited to situations where your intended user base simply doesn't have a choice. As soon as they're paying for it or depending on your it for their daily work most people just won't accept being forced to use an old computer. They want their new, shiny PC and their sexy, modern LCD screen.
Re:A good idea but... (Score:5, Insightful)
I am writing this post on my daily workstation which is a 150MHZ Cyrix chip with 64MB of RAM, no HD and a 100mbps ethernet card. I share a 1ghz AMD server with 5 other people here who are using similiar thin client setups. I have a sweet 17" BenQ LCD Panel and a sexy KB and mouse. I can't even see the actual computer I am using, which is really just a bunch of computer guts in a drawer (with no fans so it's totaly silent).
People come to my desk, look at my screen and say "Wow! Nice technology!". I open the drawer and show them what it is running on and they get seriously confused and start asking all sorts of quesitons.
The point is that thin clients work for todays technology needs. What people really want is a computer they can count on to provide the types of applications they need to use in a reliable manner. Thin clients fit that bill perfectly. Not to mention the whole office is a breeze to administer, practicaly zero administration actually.
No Need to run PINE or a terminal, I run KDE 3.2.2 with Mozilla, OpenOffice, Evolution, Gimp, etc. etc. I can site down at any terminal in my office, log in to my account and get work done.
People come in off the street to use our public internet terminal and deal with Linux just fine. They feel they are using the latest technology because the LCD Monitor looks so jazzy. And frankly, they are using the latest technology because thin clients are the future.
Kind Regards
Re:A good idea but... (Score:2)
Re:A good idea but... (Score:2)
And the past.
Right on! (Score:2)
So true! I describe the 80's and 90's to people as a bout of binge drinking the industry went through. Now it's emerging from the back allies it passed out in (and got robbed in) squinting at the light of day and woundering what the heck happend.
Kind Regards
Re:A good idea but... (Score:2)
That really depends on what you're doing with your machine. For the type of work I do (server-side Java stuff) and the way I do it (using an IDE rather than vi and ant) there's no way I'd get acceptable performance using a thin client connecting to a shared server.
As in all things, there is no silver bullet, no one right way to do it. Thin clients have their place, but so do hulking great workstations.
For what it's worth, I use a 3GHz Dell with a gig of RAM, and that's silen
Re:A good idea but... (Score:2)
As for the silent part, if you have not experienced a solid state computer system ( and I mean no computer spinny things like fans and HDs anywhere) than I doubt you have experienced tru
Re:A good idea but... (Score:2)
well I want it! It would make a decent thin client
Kind Regards
Re:A good idea but... (Score:4, Informative)
BTW, this is a true thin client, unlike Winterms or the Linux equivalent. Exploit in the kernel? Just drop a new one on the server and update the name in DHCP (or make a symlink), and, presto, all the hundreds of clients have been upgraded with no downtime the next time the are cycled. There is no need to burn flash on hundreds of clients. Any application holes can be filled in the time it takes to patch the server, with no reboots required anywhere, and no tech to be onsite at all.
In short, though you seem to think so, nothing in the user session is running locally and the user is not limited by any old hardware. The clients can be used for another fifteen years with no penalty is they don't fail. Upgrade the software, upgrade the server hardware (or cluster), and you've got faster, better user sessions for free.
Check out for more info. [ltsp.org]
Re:A good idea but... (Score:2)
This would be invaluable in scientific research for instance: every person in a lab has at least one PC. Put some clustering software on them. If one runs several big jobs, th
Re:A good idea but... (Score:2)
If that's true, then why the problem with using that 1995 sytem? Or are your using "accustomed" in a manner in which I am not aware?
If people truly are accustomed to a certain level of speed and a certain specific interface, then why the heck isn't Windows 3.1 still the major consumer operating system? The history of the PC has been one of a constantly changing speed and style, not the opposite.
Re:A good idea but... (Score:3)
I want to agree with the other respondents in this thread and also offer an anecdote of my own.
Our local Linux user group [gllug.org] was hosting an all-volunteer set of Linux classes for the community earlier this year. We had an Athlon 2400 (or close) server with a gig of RAM running K12 LTSP with 12 Pentium II-class thin clients. Now, K12 LTSP at the time ran Red Hat 9.0. The default RH9 desktop is not exactly light on resources for even *one* machine, but we had people on all 12 terminals doing things like web bro
Re:Not so (Score:2)
The problem is that the 486 you salvaged from the dumpster may top off at 800x600 60 Hz VGA video. Not the best choice for the senior volunteers working the desk at your local public library.
Re:Not so (Score:2)
How about Chairity (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:How about Chairity (Score:2)
Re:How about Chairity (Score:2)
Re:How about Chairity (Score:2)
Re:How about Chairity (Score:1)
Re:How about Chairity (Score:5, Insightful)
"Here's a computer. It doesn't have windows or anything that will serve your purposes. But it has a command line. Here, I'll show you how to use Lynx..."
Ten minutes later the person at the charity makes a phone call...
"Hey, Jonny, do you still have that windows 95 cd? Some guy wearing a penguin shirt just dropped off a computer that is completely useless to us."
You can't just donate a computer without a GUI and expect people to use it. Even the simplest uses of a computer of browsing the web are nearly impossible. Lynx? Is this what you're recommending? This thread is talking about donating the pc to a charity, not for some beowulf cluster in your basement to compile gentoo on.
Re:How about Chairity (Score:1)
Re:How about Chairity (Score:2)
Re:How about Chairity (Score:2)
I could read the post using telnet if I had to, but that doesn't mean that I'd want to, and it doesn't meant that other people should be able to or have to.
Charity is also an option (Score:3, Interesting)
Don't forget about charity; I volunteer for an organization that cleans up old PCs and gives them to needy families with children in school, and there are hundreds of organizations out there that do similar things. We won't take trash, but an old Pentium is often a fine system for word processing and basic web mojo, which is what most needy recipients would be doing.
Re:Charity is also an option (Score:2, Informative)
1. users donate old computers to the org
2. then they sort the components and sort out the ones that are usefull and box them
3. the old stuff goes to get recycled, the silicon, chips, metal, ect can all be recycled for a slight profit. the monitors go to hazardous waste facility.
4. the usefull componets go to building, where they train people how to build the pc's
Re:Charity is also an option (Score:4, Insightful)
You gave them a computer. But a single pair of ink jet cartridges costs $50-$60. That makes printing a luxury. Dial-up Internet is $10/mo + line charges. Difficult for a low-income family that may have only "Life-Line" metered phone service. Is it so surprising they want to play the few budget line games they can afford?
Remember these words (Score:3, Interesting)
If that sounds cynical, I'm sorry. But it's true: corporations work for profit, and as far as I can see the only reason a corporation would want to recycle PCs is to get new ones out on the market. NO OTHER REASON.
Re:Remember these words (Score:4, Insightful)
"wrong."
Every manager worth my salary (which is really setting the bar low) knows the axiom "it takes a lifetime to win a customer, a second to lose one." By doing things that are altruistic and aware of what their customers value, corporations can avoid protests and boycotts--and even "I'll go with your competitor, they anger me less."
There is a certain dollar cost that we subconciously attribute to our values, and if a corportation offends our values, we'll look for an alternative whose cost of switching is less than the cost of our values.
A great theoretical example of this is cars. Many imports sell for about $2,000 less than American cars--but the American cars still sell, because "buy American" has a value cost of more than $2,000 for a lot of people. (Not to mention a slew of other reasons that I'm purposefully glossing over.)
Re:Remember these words (Score:2)
To quote the great I. Montoya: "I do not think that word means what you think it means." If you are doing something altruistic in a corporation, your job is in danger. What you are
Re:Remember these words (Score:2)
You're a classic half-empty-glass cynic.
Enlightened self-interest is still "enlightened." By and large, companies that are "good corporate citizens" calculate on the macroeconomic level, and let their rank-and-file be geniunely altruistic.
If it were not for the altruism of companies, the United Way would not exist--and my employer not only exists, they compete in a relatively lucrative field.
Re:Remember these words (Score:2)
(And I'm certainly not "gellin." Feet were made to adapt to harsh terrain, darnit!)
Re:Remember these words (Score:2)
If that sounds cynical, I'm sorry. But it's true: corporations work for profit, and as far as I can see the only reason a corporation would want to recycle PCs is to get new ones out on the market. NO OTHER REASON.
It's simpler than that.
Try this test: When you read an advertisement, consider the opposite of what it says or attempts to get
LTSP is good (Score:5, Informative)
Server: 800 MHz Pentium III, 1 GB SDRAM, dual 20 GB hard drives.
Thin Clients (all diskless and netbooting thanks to LTSP): 233 MHz Cyrix III with 64 MB RAM, 233 MHz Pentium II with 48 MB RAM, 333 MHz Celeron with 32 MB RAM, 300 MHz Pentium II with 64 MB RAM, 150 MHz Pentium MMX with 32 MB RAM (IIRC).
This setup can have 6 people (one on the server plus the thin clients) running Gaim + Mozilla + OpenOffice with very little slowdown. Rarely is it noticeable. And it is very easy to manage; since there is only one computer with Debian and all the data and whatnot on it, only one box has to be updated, had new users added, etc.
Total cost so far: $0, it is all just hardware out of my friend's basements and mine. The fact that no money has to be spent to get something like this to work (and work well) really shows that a new, shiny 2.4 GHz Pentium 4 is not needed just to check email and browse the web. The science department at this same school actually just recieved 24 new 3.2 GHz Dells, and the most that is ever done on them are Excel spreadsheets!
Imagine the money that can be saved by using old but completely useful computers instead of upgrading every couple of years when it is unneeded... (and spending more money on licenses for new versions of Office and Windows and etc.)
Re:LTSP is good (Score:2, Interesting)
I would guess that most of your fellow slashdotters would agree with you. I would also guess that the marketing departments of Dell, HP and every other company that actively pushes their stuff to universities would insist that they need to continue riding the upgrade carousel.
Re:LTSP is good (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm wondering, though, didn't you have to install PXE capable NICs on all the clients? I picked up a lot of used Dell PIIIs on eBay some time ago for next to nothing and am still amazed not only by how capable each of them is, but also by how much time I spent using each of them. At the same time, though, they were the only systems I'd seen that had PXE capable NICs.
Admittedly, buying "old" hardware isn't
Re:LTSP is good (Score:1)
Seriously, though, I have been involved with the LTSP project for ove four years now, and it grows more amazing all the time.
So recycling is bad? (Score:4, Insightful)
but think of the numbers (Score:2, Interesting)
LTSP? (Score:3, Insightful)
Uhm... that sounds kind of like X-Windows...
Re:LTSP? (Score:2)
This is old (Score:3, Informative)
Most of these guys' companies either don't fare too well, or are kaput, because the idea is, well, obvious...
Whats new, IBM did it 100 years ago (Score:1)
A great scam.
But one that MS cant do, they cant just 'get rid of' old OS's, or can they? using viruss hmmmmm maybe they have covert coding teams making o
Re:Whats new, IBM did it 100 years ago (Score:2)
Exactly. (Score:1)
Not ms bashing, (Score:2)
If this were a serious message board or mail list, I would have gone into depth seting up a position
This is news? (Score:5, Insightful)
> more than a means of getting older systems out of
> use, to be replaced by newer systems
Exactly what did he expect these recycling programs are for? Of course they're primarily a means to sell new systems!
If a company has a bunch of HP/Dell PCs that are about to reach their end-of-life, they can either arrange the disposal themselves or give them back to the vendor to dispose of. Many companies will offer the PCs to their employees for a very low cost, and some of these employees will take them, put Linux on them and give them to charity. Maybe the company has someone on staff that acts as a focal point for charitable distribution of these PCs (as well as new stuff); if so, that person may take on the role of coordinating that sort of work.
***If this is "all too hard" for the company, and they just want to get rid of the old PCs without being accused of screwing up the environment by dumping them somewhere***, they're free to give them back to Dell/HP who'll dispose of them. Some companies see this as a useful thing; they've got a problem (disposal of a bunch of PCs without screwing the environment) and Dell/PC will take care of the problem for them. That's called a "competitive advantage".
Here's news: there's no fleet of people at Dell/HP who call up every charity in the world trying to dispose of old PCs 24x7! There may be a few people who take the role on themselves, but there's no way a few people can dispose of thousands of old PCs on an ongoing basis in their spare time.
It's *not* trivial to donate these PCs; among other things, either they have to arrange for MS to transfer the OS licence to some unknown recipient (unlikely), or they have to arrange a workforce to format discs, install e.g. Linux on them and then train whoever it is these PCs are going to be given to. Strangely, neither Dell or HP feel it is their role to act as unpaid Linux trainers for the world's underprivileged! Finally, if a charity receives a free PC from Dell/HP, there's at least an implied support arrangement there - when that old clunker of a PC breaks down, who's gonna get called?
If Slashdot or any other organization wants to form a group of people who will take these PCs, reformat them, install Linux, donate them to the world's charities and provide support afterwards, I'm sure Dell and HP would be very happy to hear about it. After all, that group would then be solving a problem Dell and HP have - how to dispose of the PCs. Do that; the world will benefit from it and probably vendors other than Dell and HP will want to jump on board too. If not, then find something real to complain about.
Thats exactly what we do at ITShare... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Thats exactly what we do at ITShare... (Score:2)
If not, or you don't know who to contact, respond and I'll see if I can put you in touch with someone at HP Melbourne. It's many years since I worked there, but I can probably still track down someone for you to talk to. If it comes off, I think it's probably likely they'll give you some exposure too; they'll be keen to announce that they're partnering with you to help the community.
Re:This is news? (Score:2)
Why is it that the training costs always come up when Linux is mentioned, but never with Windows. You didn't mention the training costs for Windows. Do you think it doesn't exist?
These are charities. They're not using WinXP. They're using whatever's on their current system. That might be Windows 3.1, MSDOS, OS9, AppleDOS, etc.
Re:This is news? (Score:2)
Whichever one it is, the people receiving these PCs will need tra
Re:This is news? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:This is news? (Score:2)
That sounds like a win for everyone concerned. The schools may not find a good use for them as they are, but I'll bet that the $70 each will be helpful and keep them in use somewhere. At that price, they'll still likely help someone who otherwise couldn't afford it.
Re:This is news? (Score:2)
It IS trivial to donate the hardware. Wipe the HD and donate it as is. Surely, in the face of 1000 donated PCs w/o OS, a charity can find someone (perhaps a local LUG) to load Linux on them.
In addition , there are likely schools that have man hours available (possibly student hours) but are strapped for cash to buy hardware. They'd likely be willing to give Linux a shot as well. It would even qualify as vocational training for the students.
It's not hard to find many ways bare PC hardware can be reused s
Using LTSP as I type! (Score:1)
You can visit the irc channel [mailto] to talk about it
I translated the latest install doc to
spanish [ltsp.org] and I love LTSPing
Or other options include.... (Score:2)
Re:Or other options include.... (Score:2)
"you little boys got the balls to do me?"
We've been doing this since March (Score:4, Interesting)
As for thin client, it's a solution some of our customers like. However, it doesn't resolve the old hardware issue. Instead, it actually adds to the problem be extending the life of systems that were never designed to last more than 3-5 years. In the past week we have had a customer complain that their last 200MHz machine just died, another client complained that their last machine with ISA slots died and now they can't use their first gen ATI AIW ISA card, and we had a call from a client that couldn't figure out how to get their new (USB only) printer working with their 6 or 7 year old desktop (with no USB).
Supporting this old stuff for the SMB (small/mid-sized business) clients is a nightmare. We spend a lot of time convincing customers to "recycle" about 1/3 of their PC hardware per year so that all of their hardware is covered under warranty and so we can support the most recent Windows operating systems and applications throughout their organizations. Having part of the office on Windows XP, part on Windows NT 4, and part on Windows 95, and half under warranty and half not covered under warranty just increases support and management costs.
Re:We've been doing this since March (Score:2)
With thin client systems, just have an extra around as a spare. They are so cheap, much cheaper than trying to fix.
Having part of the office on Windows XP, part on Windows NT 4, and part on Windows 95, and half under warranty and half not covered under warranty just increases support and management costs.
With thin client everyonbe runs the same softw
Re:We've been doing this since March (Score:2)
Not necessarily. In a lot of these "thin client" scenarios the customers are actually running old desktop hardware and using the MS Terminal Server Client or the newer RDP client. These machines have an operating system that needs to be maintained - patches, updates, etc. Most users don't use apps like IE through their Terminal Server, some tend to use Outlook installed locally on these "thin" clients
Re:We've been doing this since March (Score:2)
Re:We've been doing this since March (Score:2)
We have the opposite problem (Score:2)
I can ghost an old pentium machine in 10/15 minutes and have the user up and running again. If we get a new Pentium 4 machine though, Windows 2000 or XP has to be installed manually on it, drivers updated, win
Re:We have the opposite problem (Score:2)
Why? So long as you are receiving in the same model machines, build one and Ghost it. Either use the MS "sysprep" tool to regen the sid on the next boot or use another tool to do the same. XP machines can be pushed out in the same 10 mins.
Believe it or not, I have had more of the newer DELL machines fail due to bad hard dri
My Old System (Score:1, Interesting)
At the Property Disposition here in Ann Arbor, they've got hundreds of half-decent computers for $100-$250 each.
Giving old systems (Score:1)
Re:Giving old systems (Score:2)
My question is "is it a hardware fault, or engineering fault?"
The reason I ask is electrolitic capacitors for the most part are a low frequency device. They charge and discharge to smothe out DC voltage. Because they are a wet electrolyte design, they have some internal series resistance. When used in a switch mode power supply, the series resistance can see a lot of high frequency current if it is not externaly shunted. This high current can cause the component to overheat and fail.
This is
Older boxes can still run Win2000 Pro. (Score:3, Informative)
Actually, you can still run Windows 2000 Professional, given that the minimum requirement to run W2K Pro is a Pentium 133 MHz CPU. Given that there are a lot of machines out there with the ATX form factor that use the Intel 440LX and 440BX chipsets with at least a Pentium II 233 MHz CPU, you can set up for them to run W2K Pro with at least 256 MB of RAM installed (most of the 440LX/440BX chipset mobos can support three 168-in DIMM's for at least 384 MB of RAM) and a 16 to 20 GB hard drive.
I myself run W2K Pro on an Abit AB-BM6 440BX chipset motherboard with a Celeron "A" 500 MHz CPU; W2K Pro runs pretty decently fast, notably bacause I have 384 MB of system RAM installed.
In my humble opinion, if your computing needs are primarily business apps and accessing the Internet, you really don't need the fastest machine out there. It's only when you have to play the latest games or run programs to edit digital still pictures or videos downloaded from a MiniDV/MicroDV digital camcorder that you really do need a machine with a faster CPU.
Re:Older boxes can still run Win2000 Pro. (Score:2)
I've run W2K successfully on a K6-2 300 (as a server!) and even a 233MHz Pentium (I) with 128MB RAM. Of course the latt
Re:Older boxes can still run Win2000 Pro. (Score:2)
When to upgrade? (Score:3, Informative)
The computer of my boss (the head of a small company that isn't afraid to spend money on computers) is a 600MHz Pentium III that came with NT4. It now dual boots into linux and has more memory (cheap), a good video card (v. cheap), more disk space - and now in most cases it appears to give an instant reponse to what is asked for it. About the only things that make the machine show its age is Open Office - which is even slower to start than win4lin plus a fairly old MSOffice, but once it has started going it works well. It's not about being a cheapskate, the machine does what it needs to do, and I put four new dual 2.8GHz Xeon servers in that office yesterday, which are doing some of the real work while the desktop machine is working as an Xterm displaying what thirteen other machines can do to some data over a weekend.
Not enough years back the only hardware I had to use was a pentium 90 with a pitiful amount of memory and a crap video card, but it was surpisingly effective with linux, Xfree86 and a lean enlightenment theme on it, so long as I ran the actual applications (from netscape up) on an SGI machine in the next building. The major failing of that machine was a lack of OpenGL support - a new video card would have fixed that easily and the machine could be used even today, so long as you only have a budget of just above zero. If there's something nice on the network, and things are set up properly, you can get away with all kinds of old hardware.
To sum up, even if you are not worried about spending the cash, you don't always need an incredible 3D games machine on your desk at work - and your machine that is getting a few years old may not slow you down at all.
CRT's and Printers = junk (Score:2)
there's no way to fix or reuse these.
Although I do rip out the motors from the printers for robot projects.
They also get all my old AT boat-anchor systems.
If it doesnt have PCI,it's not worth fooling with.
is this not just as bad as a ploy? (Score:2)
Similarily, these whiners are also just drumming up their own
Re:is this not just as bad as a ploy? (Score:3, Interesting)
The only reason we switched was that we watched the applications and solutions we had been using getting crowded out by ones that required Windows, and the remote W
hrmmmm (Score:2)
got. to. love. the...overacting.
Re:hrmmmm (Score:2)
Well, this isnt a first (Score:2)
simply a move to get people to buy new stuff so people get a big profit.
my neighbor down the street gave me an old 386, and they said "watch out though, it's not y2k complia
3-R's (Score:2)
They are:
Reduce - don't use what you don't need.
Reuse - If at all possible, reuse.
Recycle - Recycle what you can't reuse.
All three have their place. Reduction of use has the greatest impact followed by reuse, and finally recycle which is in essence the last alternitive but is still better than throw away.
Something like the terminal project is better than recycling by an entire order of magnitude. Having said that however, sometim
Re:Hmm (Score:1, Insightful)
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state...
Re:Hmm (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Hmm (Score:2)
Have you considered they mean "I am prepared to help fund everyone else's health care because they are also funding mine" ?
Re:Hmm (Score:2)
Maybe for the same reason some people say "I have a right to own guns" when they really mean "I've got a fetish for killing devices" ?
If that was the case, why don't those people start their own charitable organization, or something like it, to finance people's health care?
They did, it's called the Government.
In fact I encourage it, because that would help alleviate the problem and would give the government less reason to "step in" and politicia
Re:Recycling is Garbage (Score:2, Interesting)
Sorry
We at Showtime Online express our apologies; however, these pages are intended for access only from within the United States.
I don't recall ever seeing such a message before. This is now intriguing me so much I may have to log into my employer's intranet, choose a North America based proxy to get out onto the real Internet and have another try.
Re:Recycling is Garbage (Score:2)
We at Showtime Online express our apologies; however, these pages are intended for access only from within the United States.
I've seen this too. Why do you suppose this policy is in effect?