CDs May be Less Immortal than We Thought 504
Zordak writes "The near-immortality of CDs, sometimes used as an excuse by record companies as an argument for their high cost, may not be as eternal as touted. An article at CNN describes the problem of CD Rot rearing its head to deny you access to your music and data. The article also describes related problems with CD-Rs, CD-RWs and DVDs."
old news (Score:5, Informative)
Re:old news (Score:3, Funny)
Doh! Nothing there.
Re:old news (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:old news (Score:5, Insightful)
Archival CDs (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Archival CDs (Score:3, Informative)
The only other gold CD-Rs I'm aware of are Mitsumi Gold, and I was shocked to hear that these are no longer made either (as of just a few months ago)! Doh!
If anybody knows of any other gold CD-Rs on the market, please let me know! In the meantime, I guess
Re:Archival CDs (Score:3, Informative)
Yes but...the name is perfect (Score:5, Funny)
Dan KOSTER.
is that perhaps with a soft "O", like "Coaster". I'd say so. He should change his middle name to "2000".
Re:old news (Score:3, Informative)
Article contradicts previous article (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:old news (Score:3, Informative)
That's unavoidable, because
Re:old news (Score:5, Funny)
Re:old news (Score:5, Funny)
iTunes doesn't rot (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:iTunes doesn't rot (Score:5, Insightful)
Not without circumventing the system such as burning those protected files to cd then converting them (ooop still a cd issue). Or illegally ripping the protection from them which is possible but a PITA. Last I checked it was much easier (and yes more expensive) to buy CDs and then to back them up ANY way you saw fit, in that respect a CD beats iTunes hands down not to mention the quality.
Re:iTunes doesn't rot (Score:3, Flamebait)
Sorry, wording like that pisses me off. It's not a crime to rape/murder* YOUR files. (Maybe breach of contract, but if they want to sue me over a $0.99 song, then whatever.)
* This is the RIAA's new term for listening to music. Additionally, it refers to stripping the DRM out of a file. (How is playing a file to another file any different than playing it to a speaker?)
Re:iTunes doesn't rot (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:iTunes doesn't rot (Score:4, Interesting)
know what? fuck that. plain and simple.
when i buy a book at the bookstore, i don't need some secret decoder eye-ring to read the damn thing. if i did, than this limits my being able to fairly use my purchased book in whatever manner i choose.
when i buy something, i buy the damn thing. when i rent, then i rent it.
don't tell me that i'm buying something when i'm actually renting it.
more and more offshore mp3 websites with awesome collections are sprouting up offering songs for as little as 2 cents a song.
sure i can sit here and say that i'm cheating the artists by illegally purchasing music online, but let's get the facts straight: in most cases, artists don't benefit from CD sales other than making their contract look good. i'm tired of handing my money over to the RIAA everytime i buy a CD.
do away with the RIAA, let the artists benefit 100 percent from music sales, and i'll go back to legally purchasing music again.
Re:funny you say that (Score:5, Informative)
FUD ALERT! (Score:5, Informative)
According to Apple's site [apple.com] you can write songs an unlimited amount of times. You can only write a specific PLAYLISTS X amount of times. I think it's 5.
I have burned songs to CDs quite a few times and never had a problem. I've made at least 20 backups of my music collection, including purchased AACs.
iTunes has a very fair and very liberal usage policy IMO.
Re:FUD ALERT! (Score:3, Insightful)
1) Do you think it's fair to share music created by someone with everyone without their permission?
2) Do you think that the market would accept a case where it got to the point that you're locked into purchasing appliance from BIGCO? Isn't that why Linux/BSD are doing so well because even Microsoft can't make EVERYONE use their OS?
The reason why people, informed people at least, are buying from Apple is because their current policy is acceptable and very unlimiting unless you're a
Re:funny you say that (Score:5, Insightful)
To make it inconvenient to mass-produce CD's from iTunes.
Re:funny you say that (Score:5, Insightful)
Once the CD is made, it's the same problem they've always had with CD copying. ie: not Apple's problem.
=Smidge=
Immortal? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Immortal? (Score:3, Informative)
They don't do too well in close proximity to a Tesla coil, either.
This has nothing to do with age... (Score:5, Funny)
Dupe? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Dupe? (Score:3, Funny)
It's also apparent that they store these CDs next to (or on top of) their (literally) smoking hot, case-modded, overclocked Athlon gaming boxes/workstations.
(it's a joke...laugh....please don't hurt me Mr. Malda...)
Re:Dupe? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Dupe? (Score:5, Funny)
bah... (Score:3, Informative)
WE KNOW. (Score:5, Insightful)
WTF ever happened to Jon Katz, anyway? (Score:3, Interesting)
CD-Rs good after 10 years. (Score:5, Interesting)
Everything restored perfectly. Now, I wonder whether todays discs at less than 1/100 of that price will even last remotely as long as those discs did.
Jolyon
Re:CD-Rs good after 10 years. (Score:5, Informative)
- Buy CD-Rs withouth printed label (the printing process causes material stress)
- Burn them at low speed (the lowest my current burner allows with my SW is 8x)
- Verify the data after writing (very important!)
- Always be careful with the label side (e.g. don't put that side on the table, dirt could cause scratches)
- Prevent hot temperatures and direct sunlight
I later found some advisory text that basically said the same thing.
Re:CD-Rs good after 10 years. (Score:5, Informative)
I googled a bit and found that text again (was in
Re:CD-Rs good after 10 years. (Score:5, Informative)
- Burn them at low speed (the lowest my current burner allows with my SW is 8x)
This is actually false, at least pertaining to newer faster drives. The new drives are less accurate when writing at low speeds, because they are built with the assumption that people will burn at the highest speed available to them. Thus burning at slower speeds actually degrades the accuracy of the burn, which may result in sooner than normal data loss.
However all the rest are right on the money.
Burning at low speed vs. high speed (Score:3, Interesting)
This is actually false, at least pertaining to newer faster drives.
You're correct to the extent that you use the disc in the same (or an equivalent-spec) drive. However, CDs intended for use in audio players or old (=12x) drives should be burned at no more than 12x; burning at higher speeds is done using CAV (constant angular velocity), which tends to confuse low-speed drives.
Re:CD-Rs good after 10 years. (Score:3, Interesting)
I don't get this tip. Could you elaborate? One would think the "data" side should be handled with more care...If I have to put a CD on the desk, I usually put it label side down. Is the label side more delicate than the "data" side?
Re:CD-Rs good after 10 years. (Score:4, Informative)
I personally put the round labels on the top; it protects the top from scratches. I know, I've heard people saying labels are bad for the discs, but so far I've been doing the label thing for about 5 years, across about 4000 CDs and DVDs, and no problems so far.
Re:CD-Rs good after 10 years. (Score:3, Informative)
Since the reflective layer is so close to the label side, writing on the label side with a hard-tip pen will damage/distort/dimple the reflective layer.
DVD-R is much better, the data/reflective layer is in the middle of the media, roughly 0.6mm of plastic on *both* sides. (The reason that the data layer is at a diffe
Don't think in terms of Memorex or Fuji. (Score:3, Informative)
Fujifilm spindles that say "Made in Japan" on them are made by Taiyo Yuden, one of the higher quality cdr fabs... but Memorex "Made in Taiwan" can either be Prodisc or CMC (flaky).
I'm more than a little dissapointed that both my local CompUSA and Best Buy are replacing Made-in-Japan Fujifilm spindles with Made-in-Taiwan Fujifilm for 50 and 100 disc spindles, leaving me with the 30 disc spindles.
(yawn) (Score:3, Informative)
this begs the question.... (Score:5, Interesting)
Nah, we already have a system (Score:5, Insightful)
It's called P2P.
When did they argue that? (Score:3, Interesting)
I thought their argument is simply that as copyright holder they are the only people entitled to create copies outside of "fair use".
I remember when (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:I remember when (Score:3, Informative)
Re:I remember when (Score:4, Informative)
http://www.medialinenews.com/issues/2002/octobe
Re:I remember when (Score:4, Interesting)
What I know is this -- on the CD it says "(P) 1980 Atlantic Recording Corporation." On the liner notes it says "(P) (C) 1980 Atlantic Recording Corporation." There is also a long paragraph about how wonderful CDs are:
"The Compact Disc Digital Audio System offers the best possible sound reproduction -- on a small, convenient sound-carrier unit. The Compact Disc's remarkable performance is the result of a unique combination of digital playback with laser optics. [care instructions follow] If you follow these suggestions, the Compact Disc will provide a lifetime of pure listening enjoyment."
The disc has the familar "COMPACT disc DIGITAL AUDIO" logo and is Atlantic CD 16017.
I also have a Star Trek soundtrack CD from 1985 that works fine too.
Re:I remember when (Score:5, Informative)
Re:I remember when (Score:5, Funny)
Is this why (Score:5, Funny)
Other news: (Score:4, Interesting)
Duct Tape (Score:4, Funny)
The CDs are not the problem (Score:5, Interesting)
Take my DVD collection, for example. Already the companies are battling to define the next standard. Who wants to bet that, if I take my DVDs down to the Target and ask for the same movie in the new format, I'm gonna get laughed into the ground? People's Betamax tapes are probably rotting too, you know?
A technology-independent, perpetual, safe storage service for the general public is just a business opportunity waiting to happen. So is the market to sell rights to a movie or song, independent of its format.
Re:The CDs are not the problem (Score:3, Interesting)
Ha. The Sumarians [bbc.co.uk] came up with a solution 5500 years ago...
Re:The CDs are not the problem (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The CDs are not the problem (Score:3, Interesting)
Hey here's a semi-on-topic question (Score:5, Interesting)
I mean, other than paper, or stone.
Ok, ammend. What DIGITAL media lasts longest? My first instinct is to say some type of tape, but tape drives seem to come in and go out of fashion fairly quickly. IDE drives might be another alternative...
So, for your money, what's the best media to store backups of your digital data? Anyone, anyone?
Vinyl lasts the longest (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Hey here's a semi-on-topic question (Score:5, Informative)
There is a reason people back up to tape even though it costs more per gigabyte then hard disks.
This is the AIT1 spec from Sony.
Avg. media uses: greater than 30,000
Media archival: greater than 30 years
Average head life: minimum 50,000 recording head contact hours
Media drum wraps: 100,000 times
Tape repositioning: 1,000,000 cycles
Re:Hey here's a semi-on-topic question (Score:3, Funny)
Avg. media uses: greater than 30,000
Media archival: greater than 30 years
Average head life: minimum 50,000 recording head contact hours
Media drum wraps: 100,000 times
Tape repositioning: 1,000,000 cycles
Sound of your tape getting mangled in the drive as you try to recover from a hard disk failure: Timeless
Re:Hey here's a semi-on-topic question (Score:5, Funny)
What media lasts LONGEST?
A wife's memory can store your screw-ups for perhaps an indefinite amount of time. :) Does that count?
Old news (Score:3, Interesting)
I also think the newer CDs are more prone to this problem than the older ones. I don't know if the materials are much different, or thinner, in order to increase writing speed, but I have noticed that my newer CDs appear to show these signs fairly quickly, sometimes as early as just a few months -- especially if I don't keep them properly stored.
does this mean.... (Score:5, Funny)
This is really old news but good! (Score:3, Insightful)
In the mean time, this opens the doors to perhaps yet another less fallible storage method. As an open-source advocate, I'm hoping some forward-thinking scientists are already cooking something up that doesn't require DRM be an inherent part of the mix.
Disagree - as Janet Jackson has clearly shown! (Score:3, Funny)
My observations on cd rot... (Score:5, Interesting)
So which lasts longer... (Score:5, Insightful)
One of the things that's bugged me is that AFAIK, CSS and the like have NO provisions whatsoever for copyright expiration. I guess the ??AA can use this as a reason for never having any.
CD rot is not scary.. but the guy holding it is! (Score:3, Informative)
The press has a good day (Score:3, Insightful)
Seriously, though, this explains why the american congress is pushing all the ideas of the MPAA and the RIAA, they really don't know what is about to hit them. And CNN is certainly not going to tell them this time, as it seems.
what about CDR color (Score:3, Interesting)
Its been my observation that the darker blue medium and opaque CDRs work better than ligher colored (more silver) and more transparent ones. I think the Verbatim's from the 1x/2x/4x days are the best: Deep blue medium, yellow/gold/green recorded region, and the top layer was thick and not prone to be scratched off like today's CDRs.
Using this logic..CDR media gets worse as recording speed of drives are pushed faster. But I haven't found quantative data to back this up.
This has been known for *ages*. (Score:5, Interesting)
I believe it comes about when there are microscopic pin-holes in the aluminium layer within the CD. Over time, an effect akin to surface-tension in liquids causes these holes to grow - until they get sufficiently large (and numerous) to cause enough data dropout to overwhelm the error correction mechanisms of the player.
CD's that never had pin-holes don't develop them later - which explains how come some disks are magically immune to the problem where others die in only a few years.
I once heard that you can actually see these pin-holes once they've grown to a size that's not yet large enough to cause permenant errors. Hold the disk up to a bright light and see if you can see them. This may give you time to back up one that's "on the way out" before you lose it completely.
I believe the manufacturers developed an alternative material for the reflective layer about 10 years ago - but most pressing plants have not switched over to it. I wonder whether their reluctance to do so is rooted in a desire to have people re-buy the same CD's over and over.
Re:This has been known for *ages*. (Score:3, Funny)
Which coincidentally is when this story was posted on Slashdot for the first time.
The Article is NOT About CD-Rs (Score:4, Informative)
I now have a dream that congress will use this to realize that we need our fair use back. I'm not holding my breath.
How long should I trust my DVD-R? (Score:3, Interesting)
Anyway, now I'm burning *a lot* of DVD-Rs to fair use archive my favorite TV shows (about 1-2 discs per day, sometimes more). I'm being very careful to keep them in a case all the time, away from dust, not touching them, and I probably won't play them all that much.
I will probably buy a storage server of super cheap hard drives 2-3 TB in a couple years, plus I will probably copy them to higher density media again in a couple years. I'm spending about $0.70/DVD now, and I expect I'll end up with a couple or three hundred DVDs of TV (we'll have high-def on demand soon enough).
I just hope these DVDs last at least 2 years with good care, away from dust and light. Is that reasonable?
Features Not as Great as Touted? (Score:3, Interesting)
DVDs have so much storage space, that every movie will have three soundtracks of your choice, seventeen language selections, and every key scene will be shot at six angles and you can choose which angle you want to watch it in!
Meanwhile, back in the Real World, DVDs still come with a single soundtrack, two or three languages (if you're lucky -- my Mandarin Chinese-speaking wife must get DVDs from Taiwan, *NOT* from Wal-Mart down the street), and sometimes a deleted scene or two, but *NEVER* alternate-angle scenes or anything like it.
Now we find out they don't last very long, and you gotta keep buying the same movies, CDs, etc every decade because they only last for a few years?
Surprise! You've been had. Again.
But don't worry. You can believe them when they say DRM won't lock you out of your media. And they won't change the terms of service on their DRM after you've already purchased the media, like Apple did.
Trust them.
A thought (Score:3, Interesting)
Ask NIST (Score:5, Interesting)
When they are using taxpayer money to do the tests, I don't see why the results (1) can't be disclosed and (2) shouldn't be disclosed (we paid for it!).
Re:FIA Request (Score:3, Interesting)
Great, invoke something that is legitimately within your rights and risk being investigated by the FBI as a "possible pirate"?
One idea (Score:3, Interesting)
While neither CDs, DVDs nor hard drives last forever, having the
This is off-topic, but I'm also looking forward to the day when portable players have advanced to the 400gb-1 terabyte storage level so that encoding in lossy formats like AAC, MP3, or WMA aren't necessary. Plain old wavs with their higher fidelity, boo-yah! One can dream,
Peace.
CDs might fail... (Score:3, Funny)
The real problem. (Score:5, Insightful)
Sure, there are hacks and work arounds...but they aren't always readily available.
For instance...I bought Battlefield 1942 and couldn't make a backup. My little sister destroyed the 2nd disc. Now I can't reinstall it. I couldn't make a backup because the original disc contained bit errors. When I contacted EA, they told me to go screw myself.
Re:The real problem. (Score:3, Funny)
Not the whole story (Score:3, Informative)
I have seen post-it-notes pull the foil off older cheap cd-rs.
I saw one study a while back that showed that the biggest problem was the labels that people were putting on burned cdrs. They cause damage to the adhesive holding the foil to the media. It would not surprise me if it did.
Commercial cds (including data cds) are a different story. I have some incredibly old cds going back to the 80s. They all work fine.
DVDs tend to have a layer of plastic between the foil and the outside. (Probably just for this problem.) Of couse, that may just be the good brands...
Much of this story is standard media scare/hype. ("If you don't listen to us YOUR DATA COULD DIE!") It is based on a real problem though.
Re:Not the whole story (Score:3, Informative)
No, sorry: DVDs have a plastic layer between the foil and the outside because the DVD standard allows for double-sided disks: the foil (reflective) layer has to be in the same place on ALL disks, though, so your single-sided DVDs will have that extra layer of plastic to "fill out" the disk to the proper thickness.
Less immortal than *WHO* thought? (Score:3, Insightful)
Gotta love how CNN assumes that everyone is as dumb as their editors. Somehow I doubt anyone in the slashdot crowd hasn't known about the longevity problems in CDs for at least 5 years now. And yet this is suddenly "news"?
Re:Less immortal than *WHO* thought? (Score:3, Insightful)
result: *a lot* of people are still backing up important data on cd's, thinking it is safe, even musea. I'm doing a masters in Conservation/restoration of visual media, and try to specialise in
Best CDR brands? An answer for Rob (Score:5, Funny)
Like most things, I too am an expert in this field (CD media)
RiTEK or Taiyo Yuden or Mitsui are "semi acceptable"
CDRs use frail ORAGANIC dye prone to steady erasure and destruction from heat, light, water, etc.
All media sucks for long term archival except perhaps STAMPED glass platter cds using gold sputterred reflection. They are called "Century Discs" and you have never seen one, though they are special fabbed. They are inorganic. No plastic to "droop" no aluminum to oxidize slowly into powder over the decades. (Aluminum oxidizes in 2 millionths of one second when exposed to air but creates a semi-safe blanket of aluminum oxide a couple atoms thick and remains mostly reflective.) All cdrs are slowly rotting, but if kept cold could last a while and be readable in a "flat bed static CD scanner" in 2020 and later.
Start of Side topic #1 ; inorganic home recordable +100 year archival media:
I own "mostly inorganic" glass platter PDO media for archiving with a four and a half thousand dollar device I bought once. It's a Maxtor (Maxoptix) Tahiti-II and each blank cost over 100 dollars. But the data will last centuries under ANY HEAT and ANY atmosphere and ANY Radiation and ANY magnetism because it uses PLASMA STATE recording. A rare earth element is heated past liquid, past gas state, into PLASMA STATE by a ridiculously espensive high powered laser, and while in this state, a strong magnetic field orientates the crystals of the cooling rare earth metal into north-or south orientation. A simple low power read-only laser can use a polarizing filter to readily discern this data. It can do so centuries from now. The Library of Congress uses these 4 thousand dollar recorders, and the US military... and also myself for pleasure. Yup I stored porn on these Tahiti-II glass platter inorganic discs! Too bad the timing-tracking marks embedded in these crystal media 125 dollar platters was imprinted using a plastic marking substance instead of the official "acid etching using H2SO3F+" Magic acid.
Only magic acid can eat a beaker or mark the inside timing marks of these special multi-century media... and Phillips Dupont CHEATED ME and fucking used PLASTIC which will rot away slowly over the next 75 years depriving our future generations of my porn collection. You can buy magic acid in special containers, or manufacture your own by mixing antimony pentafluoride (SbF55) and fluorosulphonic acid (HSO3F). It has an unbelievable pka of 20 and is powerful enough to protonate saturated alkanes forming carbonium ions... and etch glass without spending a lot of effort trying to use hyperboloid 5Kw lasers on clear glass.
UI am definitely going off on a tangent and I was still talking about CD reflectivity, so I will continue...
End of Side topic #1 ; inorganic home recordable +100 year archival media:
I have visited pressing plants, sputtering plants, and even polycarb manufacturers for DVD and CDR, and taken a few 1,200 dollar a day seminars on laser head movement and design.
Refectivity in a CD or CD-ROM is irrelevant. The laser usually uses a "Quarter wave" plate and the frequency of the laser is specially selected and this rotated light has a 90 degree polarity difference (differential phase) that makes reading possible at high speeds. This is less relevant in CDR but very important in stamped media. I discuss this at length for you below a second discussion in my Side topic #2 on : CD Reflectivity Layers (not needing any metal or even being transparently covered)
Amusing Side NOTE : I am not just Mr Medical boy, Mr microbiology Man, Mr Lawyer, Mr Musician, Mr Trivia Buff, Etc... i am also Mr Computer expert and CD device consultant, and paid a couple times in my life to consult on CDR mechanism design.
The best CDRs use a special dye invented by Mitsui Toatsu Corporation (MTC), but no longer true after 2000 unless you have old stockpil
that's not even mentioning (Score:3, Interesting)
Previous /. Stories (Score:3, Informative)
http://slashdot.org/articles/04/04/22/1658251.s
It's good to know these things eventually filter down to CNN.
question about the write-up (Score:3, Insightful)
"The near-immortality of CDs, sometimes used as an excuse by record companies as an argument for their high cost"
I've never heard a record company state that a CD's near-immortality is a reason for its cost. Has anybody else? Can somebody provide a citation?
Oxidation after 15 years (Score:3, Insightful)
If you think about it, paper is relatively high tech in comparison: read/write, random access to pages, zero energy consumption, and it last at least 750 years (if it carries the little infinity symbol -- see International Standard [www.iso.ch] ISO/IEC 9706 (1994) Information and Documentation-Paper for Documents-Requirements for Permanence).
So they should be cheaper. (Score:3, Interesting)
A new development, in terms of spacetime and the existence of all things, are these copy-protecte discs that don't even allow us to secure our purchased goods with backup copies.
Oh, and try this one on: last May my car was broken into, and several of my CDs were stolen. Lucky me, I backup most of my CDs. But I was recently approached by someone who was "concerned" about the fact that I have a 50-CD spindle of audio CDR's in my car -- naturally, the person is thinking piracy. And naturally, at least a few of the CDs are pirated copies -- but suppose none of them were: someone could quite plausibly be found guilty of music piracy to the tune of a couple thousand dollars just because their CDs are stolen. After all, if you don't own it, how can you prove that your copies are legit?
I no longer remember the purpose of this, so I'll end on that note. Just food for thought.
Old CDs (Score:3, Interesting)
As discussed before on Slashdot (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Whoever thought they lasted a long time? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Just a while back... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:next medium (Score:3, Interesting)