DSI Delivers up to 3GB/s with Solid State Disk 214
olivesaregross writes "'Running at what the company says is 250 times the speed of conventional hard drives, it won't come cheap, but it will be fast. It uses DRAM memory to store data instead of spinning platter hard drives, giving an access time of just 20 microseconds.' It still does use platter-based drives but it's a cool idea anyway.
Techworld has another story on it."
Pricing (Score:4, Interesting)
Well! A consumer-level version ought to be cheap in about... ten years.
Re:Pricing (Score:2, Insightful)
I would call it "a hard disk with a big cache"... however... I can have a cheaper disk with a bigger cache just by adding more RAM to my system and it would be much much faster... wonderful eh?
I may be wrong... but I cannot RTFA.. the site is
Re:Pricing (Score:5, Funny)
Apparently, increasing memory access times wasn't the panacea they thought it would be.
Re:Pricing (Score:3, Interesting)
"Trying to get the general population to think beyond the big RAID systems is our biggest impediment to solid state disk acceptance..."
That and the hefty pricetag, I'm sure. Obviously the better demand, the better a chance the price will go down, but seeing as RAID stands for Redundant Array of Inexpensive Disks (for some people) may explain why it's so popular. Same reason most people don't drive Ferrari's - it costs like 1000 dollars for an oil change.
I don't see this having much use
Re:Pricing (Score:5, Informative)
The I can mean either Inexpensive or Independent
and the D can be either Drives, Disks, or Devices.
However it's always a Redundant Array, which of course makes RAID 0 not RAID, but just a good way to lose even more data faster(as any drive/disk/device failing on RAID 0 takes down all your info).
Re:Pricing (Score:3, Interesting)
I never understood that... RAID has historically been set up with SCSI drives, (ATA RAID has been more recently developed/implemented) I would hardly consider them cheap compared to ATA (altough recently I have noticed the price differiental somewhat lessened)
Regardless, I still use almost all SCSI in my boxes.
Consumer edition (Score:5, Interesting)
I can't imagine that an enclosure of that type would run more than $500, plus the cost of the RAM that went into it. It might not be consumer cost effective, but it could be worthwhile at the prosumer or low end, where the RAM disks shown on
The RAM itself is one thing... (Score:5, Interesting)
I'd love a SSD at least big enough to boot from, to combine with some other fanless stuff to create a 100% fanless, no moving parts PC (except from burner, which is silent when not in use). That + GbLan (to copy everything in from fanless machine, no damn spinning CD/DVD) using a direct crossover cable to a file server, preferably in a sound-isolated galaxy far, far away.
That is my dream for my next setup. I've looked at doing the same simply dragging DVI + USB cables + external burner at machine, but it's not that great. A network cable can go so much longer...
Kjella
Re:Consumer edition (Score:2, Insightful)
Any speed gain you'd get from using solid state media would be lost if the device is hooked up to such a bus. And if you really want something small, think about the iPod. It holds many gigabytes of data in a handheld form factor; all it has is a tiny hard drive.
Also, RAM needs a constant supply of power to keep it useful. If the device is going to be portable at all [and why shouldn't it be, if you hook it up to Firewire or something similar?], it's going to need batteries, something tha
Re:Pricing (Score:2)
With UltraATA topping out at 100MB/sec even the cheapest/slowest available DRAM can keep the interface chugging at full speed 100% of the time. A simple 16 or 32 bit bus clocked at 50 MHz (one 16 bit word per cycle since ATA is only 16 bits wide) will be sufficient.
Throw in a couple batteries (NiMH or LiIon, whatever's cheaper)
Re:Performance and Cost (Score:5, Informative)
With a battery backed cache of mirrored RAM, we found that for quick read/write stuff, the disks never got hit. If the data stayed, they ended up on the drives. If power was lost, the battery kept the cache alive for well over a day (I got bored and it met the "30 minutes" criteria we were looking at).
The cache isn't huge (512? 256MB?) but it never filled. Basic elevator algorithms (we all did CS classes, right?) let the RAID side take data out of the cache in DISK order and write it out.
And, not being Computer Vendor RAID, we found that it was fast and not expensive (given professional RAID). 15KRPM disks and dual controllers and dual PS and all that. Not for home use, but certainly for pro use. Oh and it gives great stats. Find stripe usage and cache hits on a Sun T3 that performs at half the speed for a good bit more money.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Performance and Cost (Score:2)
No wonder I haven't heard of them before.
Not cheap, but fast (Score:4, Insightful)
SSD is a niche technology at best (Score:4, Informative)
Imperial folded, Platypus folded, Solid Data is barely hanging on and Texas Memory survives on defense contracts.
SSD is a great technology, yes.
SSD makes commercial sense, no.
How many more VCs can be fooled into investing into SSD startups?
Re:Not cheap, but fast.. my pick.. (Score:2)
Re:Not cheap, but fast (Score:3, Insightful)
-Erwos
Re:Not cheap, but fast (Score:2)
Doesn't "fast" usually refer to time taken for development and/or to market?
Re:Not cheap, but fast (Score:2, Informative)
Cheap is cost.
Fast is time to market.
Good is reliability/performance/design.
In other words I can design a syatem that is cheap to make and performs really good but I can't do it fast.
Or I could do it fast and have it really good but its gonna cost a lot (Think xbox).
Or I could do it fast, make it cheap but its not gonna be very good. (Think N-gage)
Finally It can take forever, cost a fortune and be really cra
Interesting Uses Possible (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Interesting Uses Possible (Score:5, Interesting)
When this makes sense, is when you do want your entire DB in RAM, but don't want to put the required amount of RAM in each node of a cluster. So you just attach each node to this SAN.
Re:Interesting Uses Possible (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Interesting Uses Possible (Score:2)
That's not the relevant question. The relevant question is, how many uses for 16,384 petabytes of RAM can you think of?
(2^64 = 16,384 * 2^50)
Re:Interesting Uses Possible (Score:2)
Re:Interesting Uses Possible (Score:2)
Solid Data's drives (which I have used) do the same thing - nothing new here. Banks of ram chips on a card that make it look like a disk. Internal battery. If power fails, contents of ram are
Their website (Score:2, Funny)
Looks like those companies... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Looks like those companies... (Score:2)
Another decade full of baby steps like this and we're there!
I know I can't wait.
Obligatory comment... (Score:4, Funny)
*waits for the groans*
Re:Obligatory comment... (Score:2)
And back (slightly) on track -- with the technology arriving yearly with faster and smaller hard-drives (mostly used in digital music devices) why do people still have giant (even a midi case is massive) cases on their desktops? Is it only due to standardised compo
Re:Obligatory comment... (Score:2)
I don't know what kind of computer you're using, but mine doesn't really have any sharp edges or tiny switches, and has just a few jumpers (Optical drives, clear CMOS, possibly a couple others that I never touched or cared about). And no, it doesn't look like a plastic fishtank, and certainly not a glowing one. :)
Re:Obligatory comment... (Score:2)
Some of us prefer a nice roomy engine compartment [att.net] as opposed to something else [klio.net]. It's always more fun to work someplace where there's room for not only the item you're working on, but also your hands and the tools they're holding.
A new requirement... (Score:4, Funny)
Why is this significant? (Score:4, Insightful)
26.6666666 times faster (Score:2, Interesting)
RELIABILITY!!! (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't understand why the company isn't touting reliability. If I have a slow hard drive... eh. No biggie. I wait an extra second. If I have a hard drive crash, that's potentially days of lost work and business, even more if a backup failed recently. I'll be buying these just as soon as I can afford them. With these drives in place, the next reliaibility bottleneck are the stupid little cooling fans failing. Electronics (printed circuit boards, chips) rarely fail on their own. It's almost something with moving parts (like a fan) that leads to their death.
To me, this is the most exciting advance in computing since Ethernet.
Re:RELIABILITY!!! (Score:5, Insightful)
Traditionally, DRAM-based storage units are LESS reliable than hard disks. Why? Power loss. Yes, you can always create a massive UPS, but to be really considered "stable storage", you need to be able to store data without power for years on end. The advantage here is that the unit writes data to its hard disks, giving you some assurance that you won't lose your data even then. That turns the RAM in the unit into a giant cache. This helps with read operations, but does nothing for writes. Besides, if the hard drives fail in this unit, the unit still fails. That makes it no more reliable than RAID.
>To me, this is the most exciting advance in computing since Ethernet.
This concept has been around since before Ethernet. The concept of storage in solid-state isn't new. Even using RAM for a hard disk isn't new. Ever run VDISK in an expanded-memory DOS system? This concept was available in the higher-end comptuer world far before that.
Re:RELIABILITY!!! (Score:2)
Re:RELIABILITY!!! (Score:2)
Probably because they are? Their specs say 99.999% uptime all over them.
Too bad the storage is so teeny. Only 8-64 gig? What are we going to fit on that? Oh well, I guess it has applications for databases. But certainly nothing where you could survive waiting for your raid array to fetch the data.
Re:RELIABILITY!!! (Score:2)
Re:RELIABILITY!!! (Score:2)
You're in the minority. Most people's data are not worth the expense of dramatically more reliable hardware. In fact, they apparently aren't even worth the trouble to making regular back-ups for.
If I have a slow hard drive... eh. No biggie. I wait an extra second.
No, a slow hard drive can preclude entire applications, such as video capturing.
I'll be buying these just as soon as I can afford them.
And that's why not many people are selling
Re:RELIABILITY!!! (Score:2)
The main problem with drives at the moment is insufficient cooling. Sprin them fast and drive the heads hard and they will get hot. Commercial units don't tend to be that
no crashes? (Score:2)
If you don't fall occasionally, you're not doing it hard enough.
You clearly need to push those drives more.
Reliability (Score:2)
When I worked at a medium sized office (550 PC's) we would have roughly one drive failure a week, and a PC replacement cycle of 3 years (which would occasionally stretch to 4 years depending on the economic situ
Re:RELIABILITY!!! (Score:2)
Quickest way to do that without opening it up and dumping sand in there is to defrag daily... there are some idiots in the office I have told over and over not to do that (BUT IT SPEEDS IT UP! heh..) and one of them just lost their entire harddrive. I've resorted to renaming the defrag utility now....
Re:RELIABILITY!!! (Score:2)
I assume the implication is that doing it so ofen wears on the drive too much. And really, doing it so often is really pretty pointless. The data doesn't get mixed up that fast. It'd be like compulsively throwing your cd collection on the floor and re-alphabetizing it every day.
Re:Compact Flash (and the like) (Score:2)
Compact flash prices vary widely (.14 USD per MB for a 2GB module or
Of course, compared to DDR RAM, compact flash may be cheaper, but for mass storage its not really an option.
Re:Compact Flash (and the like) (Score:2)
Google Cache (Score:4, Informative)
Really just a disk with a huge cache.. (Score:2)
Re:Really just a disk with a huge cache.. (Score:2, Informative)
A UPS is one way to keep the data going, but it's much simpler and more effective to use the method that Sun used years ago with its Prestoserve disk-cache boards years ago: you put a little lithium watch battery on the board with the RAM. If the system loses power, the battery powers the RAM for, I don't know, a year or two. Then you also build in a little software-accessible battery monitor that tells you when it's time to replace the watch batteries.
Of course, you have to have some software so that
Re:Really just a disk with a huge cache.. (Score:2)
Re:Really just a disk with a huge cache.. (Score:2)
Well given the operating hours of this particular application (stock market), they only run 12 hours a day anyways.
I know it's not quite the same as a ramdisk but (Score:3, Informative)
It is still cool though
Slashvertisement? (Score:4, Interesting)
From the article, I gather these are merely SAN boxes with up to 64GB of DRAM, fiber channel output, and 3 hot-swappable hard drives that act as backup.
Has a record been broken? Has anything special happened? Sure this is high-end stuff, but it doesnt seem new or particularly exciting.
dram (Score:3, Funny)
Logical Uses (Score:3, Funny)
"I have a problem with my computer, it says boot disk invalid"
"Please remove the cartridge from the front of the PC and replace it with one that will arrive at your door shortly, and don't worry, you wont lose any information"
Caching? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Caching? (Score:2)
If it weren't for those two significant factors, then regular-old-ram would be a better investment. But then, throw in the fact that this is sharable between many machines on a
Re:Caching? (Score:2)
Obviously it's not that fast (Score:3, Funny)
A number of other companies have been making DRAM disks for several years
Whats new about this? (Score:4, Informative)
Yes, But These Guys Have More Capacity (Score:2)
Texas Memory Touts Largest SDD Installation [dynamicsolutions.com]
Re:Whats new about this? (Score:2)
barebones ramdrive (Score:2, Insightful)
That would work fine (Score:4, Insightful)
It's not just the solid state memory, it's the ability to independently mirror it on disk as well. I suppose you could do that with software, but having that taken care of transparently and without CPU is a huge convenience factor.
Re:That would work fine (Score:2)
DSI Delivers up to 3GB/s... (Score:4, Funny)
Used interface? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Used interface? (Score:2)
There's no reason what so ever why you would use a 'scsi' cable to hook up the memory to the chipset.. So limitations you assumed would apply, do not apply
Re:Used interface? (Score:5, Informative)
"with two to eight Fibre Channel ports that can push out 250,000 IOPS - up to 3Gbit/s"
Re:Used interface? (Score:2)
FC-AL, aka Fibre Channel:
http://www.enterprisestorageforum.com/technology/
Now that's a drive... (Score:4, Funny)
Solid State Discs have been around for a while (Score:5, Interesting)
The SSD we have is a Nitro!Xe from Curtis, Inc. [mncurtis.com]. It looks like a standard 3.5" wide 1" high Ultra2 SCSI drive with an 80 pin SCA connector. We have a 2G model with a 2.5" notebook drive for backup (it has a battery to dump RAM to disk on power off) and it greatly improved the performance of our mail server (high performance mail queue is all about I/O TPS).
Re:Solid State Discs have been around for a while (Score:2)
Can I ask why a 2GB SSD was better than buying another 2GB of RAM for your mailserver, and putting your mail queue on a ramdisk?
Re:Solid State Discs have been around for a while (Score:2, Informative)
The advantage of these systems would be that they're insanely fast, and have a battery in case power is lost. Since they emulate a hard disk, the mail server thinks everything has been safely written, and since there is a battery this works pretty well.
Re:Solid State Discs have been around for a while (Score:2)
Wafer-scale integration? (Score:5, Interesting)
I read an article about this years ago. The idea was something like this:
Memory chips are made on wafers. They are made side-by-side, then sliced apart, then each tested and mounted in a package. (Then eventually mounted on a little circuit board, and thence into our hands to install into our computers.)
The idea was to make a wafer of memory chips, but not to just have them side-by-side; actually have traces connecting one chip to another. Then use the whole wafer as a RAM unit. You would need to test and find any defective RAM chips in the wafer, then cut a trace (or burn out a fuse, or whatever) to disconnect them from the rest of the wafer. (Not too different from bad-block management on a hard drive, really.) Finally you could make a stack of these wafers in a box, and sell it as a disk drive.
This should be much cheaper than current RAM-based disk drives. It would be slower (the traces connecting the chips would be slower than a direct memory bus to each chip) but still way faster than a drive with moving parts.
My understanding is that wafer-scale integration isn't very interesting for most applications, but for the specific niche of RAM-based storage units it seemed promising. Clearly I'm wrong since it didn't happen. Anyone know why?
steveha
Re:Wafer-scale integration? (Score:2)
So, essentially... (Score:2)
Uncompromised SDRAM data integrity is maintained through both battery backup and redundant disk drives, so your data is always protected.
Rebadged TMS RAM SAN (Score:3, Informative)
http://www.superssd.com/default.asp [superssd.com]
==>Lazn
POINTLESS (use system RAM instead) (Score:2)
This would be EVEN FASTER because you don't have to get your disk data from over some SCSI bus or whatever. Instead, you just rely in your OS to do a good job of caching disk blocks in RAM. If all of your data fits in RAM, then the only disk access that will
huh? (Score:3, Funny)
It uses DRAM memory to store data instead of spinning platter hard drives, giving an access time of just 20 microseconds.' It still does use platter-based drives but it's a cool idea anyway.
<jon stewart> Whaaaaaa? </jon stewart> How can you use DRAM instead of platters but still be platter based?
Oh, yes. Now I understand. Way to be crystal clear there. I know the formula, (submit well written story with exacting details that clearly illustrate the point minus "well written" and minus "with exacting deatils that clearly illustrate the point"), and yet... I keep taking the bait.
and let me beat you to the punchline:
(Score: -1 Duh)
Re:huh? (Score:2)
To anyone who has bought / implemented an SSD... (Score:3, Insightful)
Theoretically if you throw a bunch of RAM into a computer with a remotely modern OS, some of that memory will be used to buffer writes, and performance will improve. An exception would be in cases where applications go out of their way to force writes all the way to disk, such as in databases with their transaction logs.
Is the problem just that there are so many applications that sync() all the time, that a hardware buffering solution such as SSD is required because otherwise the OS's file buffers are constantly being flushed? (Yes I understand that SSD is persistent, or at least much more persistent than plain old RAM that dies when the power goes off.)
I can see the enterprise-friendly angle of "just add this disk and the whole system goes much faster" instead of trying to rewrite existing apps or tune the hell out of the OS. I'm just curious about particular cases where adding RAM doesn't work but SSD works well... are there enough to justify the existence of these devices?
ugh its just VFS (Score:2)
This is hardly new (Score:2)
You know, 25+ years ago they had solid state paging drums for the mainframes of the time. Sure they were larger in size, less capacity, slower than this unit, and more expensive -- but so were computers in general. This is hardly a new idea.
MRAM (Score:2)
Has all the makings of a great future hard drive replacement.
Small sizes of it are already available, at least on paper.
Datasheets here. [cypress.com]
This Story is about 14 years late (Score:2)
The backend runs OpenVMS and the critical files are kept on solid-state disks. Originally DEC ESE20s. In particular, the order-books are kept on mirrored solid-state disks to allow for fast matching between buyer and seller.
Re:Obligatory first post! (Score:2, Funny)
It will be great for you since finally the picture will load before you shoot your load.
Re:Obligatory first post! (Score:5, Funny)
Pure bliss. But, at that rate, the largest drive (64GB) would only last 21 seconds.
Re:Obligatory first post! (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Obligatory first post! (Score:2)
Graphics (Score:2)
Trading (Score:3, Insightful)
For each of these items there is a price/time linked list of bids and offers which are used to determine a market. Thi
Re:Noise (Score:2)
From the link:
Solid state components don't make any noise because there are no moving parts. This device incorporates solid state storage along with fans and normal hdds, so it's not silent.
Re:Thats great (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Thats great (Score:2)
There's no reason to have the disks spun up eating electricity and generating heat and noise in normal operation. With today's low-voltage parts, a couple of LiIon batteries could probably keep the entire memory array live
Re:Is just me... (Score:3, Informative)
Envision an 8G SCSI hard drive with 8G of cache, pre-populating the cache when you turn on the computer. Same idea.
In fact this is a hardware manifestation of the Superspeed software that used to be marketed by Cenatek (not sure if they still do - Google it.)
Re:FP (Score:2)