FCC to Reorganize 800mhz Band? 149
nick0909 writes "Years in the making, the FCC is finally
close to deciding if they will allow Nextel to pay for the reorganization of the 800mhz bandplan. In return the FCC will give Nextel a new band in which to operate their phones, where they won't destroy public safety communications. Other cell companies are angry because they had to pay millions for their GHz frequencies, and argue Nextel is getting off cheap. On top of this, if the 800MHz band gets re-sliced, will the FCC continue to push TV broadcasters out of 700MHz, which was supposed to go all to public safety in the coming years?"
What's the fair thing to do to them? (Score:5, Insightful)
The FCC couldn't make up their minds at the last meeting [dailywireless.com], will things change at the next? I have a feeling this could get pushed around for a while.
Re:What's the fair thing to do to them? (Score:4, Interesting)
It's only fair.
What do you call fair ? (Score:5, Interesting)
The public service is the priority, to that I agree. But this is what is suggested as follow up which is downright anti capitalist. No Company has the RIGHT to claim compensation from the governement by getting a HIGHIER value spectrum. At best, they get back their money for the 800 Mhz and THEN the governement auction the 1.9Ghz.
Giving them something which is valued at 5 Billion at least for a paltry sum, is downright anti competiting and nearly a gift of some billion from the taxpayer into the Nextel's account.
Frankly I would not be surprised that nextel has some friends in the FCC and in the governement if this get thru...
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:What do you call fair ? (Score:3, Informative)
Well ... the 1.9Ghz spectrum being discussed is contiguous, nationwide spectrum compared to the disjoint patchwork of channels that Nextel currently owns.
-rickRe: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:What do you call fair ? (Score:2)
Tmobile uses 1900MHz only in the US. They are a worldwide company, and use the 900 and 1800 (not sure which, perhaps both?) in Europe.
They used to be known as the guys with the worst coverage nationwide, but nowadays with AT&T, and Cingular on GSM (plus several little guys) this isn't a big problem. There are large holes, but they are mostly where people don't go anyway. (Today I hit an area where I didn't have coverage, the first time I noticed in several years)
Re:What do you call fair ? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:What do you call fair ? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:What do you call fair ? (Score:2)
Re:What do you call fair ? (Score:3, Insightful)
Coverage with 800MHz may seem great for a mobile telephone provider, but the extra coverage comes at a price, and the providers all know this.
The majors, namely AT&T/Cingular, T-Mobile, Verizon, and Nextel are all co
Re:What do you call fair ? (Score:4, Insightful)
The reason that Verizon, et al, is so upset, is that they are offering new frequency to Nextel. From Daily Wireless [dailywireless.com]: "Verizon Wireless remains ready to participate in an immediate auction of a nationwide license for the 10 megahertz (specifically the 1910-1915/1990-1995 MHz)."
According to the FCC Website [fcc.gov]: "Broadband PCS is allocated spectrum ranging from 1850-1910 MHz and 1930-1990 MHz. "
This would be a new subblock of the PCS band, that could be used _nationwide_, which is why Verizon has said it is worth 5 billion. Also, every time the FCC has released new spectrum for phone services, they've auctioned off those new services to the highest bidder.
It's the FCCs fault... (Score:4, Insightful)
Of course Verizon and Voadfone don't like it! They see this is a way to easily kill of some competiton.
Re:It's the FCCs fault... (Score:4, Insightful)
Nextel purchased existing licenses as well as "new" licenses from the FCC. The pre-existing licenses were converted for use in Nextel's cellular network.
In both cases (pre-existing and new), Nextel agreed to operate the licenses in a responsible manner. That's part of the license - like using your driver's license to operate automobile in a responsible manner.
-rickRe:It's the FCCs fault... (Score:2)
This isn't insightful, it's a troll. At least I hope it is, it's pretty sad/messed up when people start prioritizing corporate survival over human life.
Judging from their recent efforts... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Judging from their recent efforts... (Score:2)
I'm an amatuer radio operation. Can we have a few MHz of that band.
Re:Judging from their recent efforts... (Score:2)
"I'm an amateur radio operator."
Sheesh, I hit the edge of Submit, instead of preview.
Re:Judging from their recent efforts... (Score:2)
You KNOW how that always turns out.
I'd be surprised if a hearing would even be agreed to unless a ham ponied up $2.9M.
73
Re:Judging from their recent efforts... (Score:2)
Pushing TV out of the 700MHz (Score:2, Funny)
If cells are wrecking emergency services, I for one would rather an ambulance make it to me in time rather than the bitch driving a car knowing what Tammy wore yesterday and what color eye shadow to put on while driving AND yip yapping.
Nextel customers are companies (Score:2)
Though harsh (and maybe sexist), your sentiment is understandable. You're right that emergency services should not be interfered with, especially by people who are just taking up the airwaves for no real purpose. However Nextel customers are usually businesses and contrac
Re:Pushing TV out of the 700MHz (Score:2)
Re:Pushing TV out of the 700MHz (Score:2, Funny)
I don't see how that comment is misogynistic ... but then maybe I am just misogynistic :/
Re:Pushing TV out of the 700MHz (Score:2)
No one's retaliating because statements about women driving and yapping about vacuous crap because it happens. There are plenty of women who refuse to talk on their cell phones while they drive, too, which I admire greatly.
I, personally, only answer when it's someone (boss, etc) who wouldn't understan
Who is Nextel, and what services do they offer? (Score:1)
Re:Who is Nextel, and what services do they offer? (Score:1, Informative)
-Mr. Lizard
Re:Who is Nextel, and what services do they offer? (Score:2)
With more and more people using it, and more and more "calls" being set up and torn down, the data channels are overloaded, while the bearer channels (established voice channels) are just like any other carrier.
Re:Who is Nextel, and what services do they offer? (Score:1)
Re:Who is Nextel, and what services do they offer? (Score:5, Informative)
They use yet another tech (aside from AMPS/TDMA/GSM/CDMA) called iDen (integrated digital enhanced network I think) that motorola came up with.
Their first phones were, quite apropriatly, referred to as "Bricks" (the old Ericson 888 world is stylish in comparison) but nowadays they're much better style-wise. They were really popular in replacing licensed and unlicensed handheld radios in construction/warehouse biz, and then got picked up on by the ISP folks (which is how I got my experience with them) and others who need a quick communication method.
The push to talk is charged at a much lower rate than normal minutes, and works mostly nationwide (if you believe the adverts). Of course being PTT, there's not "ring" or "accept" phase, so the phone just starts yapping when someone pushes a button. You can do point to point or point to multipoint messages.
I haven't had a nextel in about 5 years so some of my observations might be outdated, but while the PTT worked well, they had a bad habit of dropping calls on cel hops.
Hope that helps. Motorola's iDen site is here [motorola.com]
Re:Who is Nextel, and what services do they offer? (Score:1)
Re:Who is Nextel, and what services do they offer? (Score:3, Insightful)
The nationwide PTT is real and it does work.
I know a LOT of people that use Nextel for work (and personal use) and their only complaint is that it is one of the more expensive services. But they love how well it works and wouldn't get rid of it. I do actually know an IT guy whose department switc
Re:Who is Nextel, and what services do they offer? (Score:1)
Give away? (Score:5, Funny)
800 millihertz? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:800 millihertz? (Score:2)
Re:800 millihertz? (Score:2)
Yes, I believe that is the frequency of SMELLS.
Who does this supprise? (Score:2, Interesting)
It was a great move. Find a bit of frequency that had been allocated to old technology (the old mobile radio phones) and then buy up all the compaines that were losing busines to the more modern cell phones. By the time anyone had figured it out, he had bought out something like 75% of the frequency over the US.
Switch to GSM !!! (Score:5, Insightful)
a. Lower prices ! The telco equipment, because of competition, is reasonnably priced
b. Interoperability ! 1billion GSM users, what should I say more
c. Frequency to choose from ! Available are : 850, 900, 1800 and 1900 Mhz. Adapt to local regulations!
d. Roaming ! When Nextel own service is not available, they could have local roaming agreements with t-mobile or at&t.
End the end the customer would be the winner !
Re:Switch to GSM !!! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Switch to GSM !!! (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Switch to GSM !!! (Score:1)
Re:Switch to GSM !!! (Score:2)
Someone else who hasn't used Nextel! Nextel has (albeit, butt-ugly) phones [nextel.com] that transparently roam between domestic (iDEN) and international (GSM) networks. I use my i730 in the US, but move my SIM card to the i2000plus when I need to go to Europe. I know you said "without changing phones" but a 20 second change on each end of the trip to keep the same number in 144 cou
Re:Switch to GSM !!! (Score:2)
Nextel Broadband in test (Score:3, Informative)
It's coming [nextelbroadband.com].
Re:Nextel Broadband in test (Score:2)
Re:Switch to GSM !!! (Score:2)
Re:Switch to GSM !!! (Score:2)
Re:Switch to GSM !!! (Score:3, Insightful)
Also, IMHO, it would be foolish to begin to roll out a GSM network right now. WCDMA is supposed to replace GSM in the (somewhat) near future. It seems that WCDMA or CDMA2000 would be a better route because those technologies are being actively developed, and are more "fut
Re:Switch to GSM !!! (Score:2)
--DM
(GSM phone in the US worked great in England, once I unlocked it!)
Re:Switch to GSM !!! (Score:2)
--D
America's Most Wanted (Score:5, Informative)
One police officer recounted how he came upon a man who had been shot in the back and was laying there bleeding, when the officer tried to radio in for help he found that he had no radio reception, so he had to wander out into the middle of the street holding his radio up to the sky until he found a spot with reception.
AMW has a site here [amw.com] where you can sign an online petition, and a description of the problem here [amw.com]
Additionally here's a link to the Consensus Plan [consensusplan.org] which is supported by emergency first responders to eliminate interference. Apparently there have been over a 1000 cases of interference nationwide in these states [consensusplan.org] since the first case was reported 5 years ago.
Re:America's Most Wanted (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:America's Most Wanted (Score:3, Informative)
It's funny, I always wondered why cellphones had always been banned in RF-sensitive areas. Back when I had a Verizon cellphone on CDMA [sss-mag.com], my frequency sniffer [optoelectronics.com] never reported any activity coming out of my cellphone, being spread spectrum (aka "We live under the noise"). Then I got a Nextel, and when I walk in the room, my sniffer chirps to indicate that it's capturing freqs off my phone. Totally different beast. My Nextel phone puts noise bursts on my tv from 8 feet
Bandwidth Consolidation needed in General (Score:2)
It's also good to get rid of AM/FM radio, Analog VHF/UHF TV, and free
Re:Bandwidth Consolidation needed in General (Score:5, Informative)
Ewww ... yuck. Folks need to understand that the two main communications modes used by public safety: dispatch and tactical. For dispatch you can use a cellular network. Examples of tactical comms are SWAT/hostage type situations or on-scene fire control. For tactical communications what you really want is direct peer-to-peer. You don't want to depend on your signal travelling all the way to a tower a half-mile away - and back again - just to talk to someone 100 feet away. This is critical when trying to talk from inside a burning building.
Less bandwidth? Not necessarily, ACSSB (amplitude compandored single side-band) fits inside a 5 khz wide channel.
Is clearer? Nope - the digital systems all use some form of speech compression which sacrifices sound fidelity for narrower bandwidth.
Is secure? No ... digital does not equal encryption. It's easier to encrypt once it's digital but requires key management. It's not a given.
Also, for public safety ... encryption is of little value ... reliability and interoperability among different agencies are more important. For most agencies, encrypting voice comms for surveillance activity and encrypting data terminal access is more than sufficient.
-rickRe:"You don't want to depend on your signal (Score:2)
In addition to MZ's comments on reliability/redundancy ... the issue of latency in digital systems is significant.
Try this with two digital mode cell phones: set both to full volume, have one phone call the other. Now listen to your voice echo from the second phone as you speak into the first one. That's quite a delay from message sent to message received. Let's suppose that time is 300 to 400 milliseconds - yeah, that's like 3 or 4 tenths of a second.
That's 3 to 4 tenths of a second lost when someone y
Re:Bandwidth Consolidation needed in General (Score:1)
Sure there is. It's called money; you may have heard of it.
Ripping out a complete communications system and replacing it is (a) damned expensive, and (b) not an overnight job.
700 MHz benefits (Score:2)
Re:America's Most Wanted (Score:2)
The registrant of the domian CONSENSUSPLAN.ORG is: Westhill Technologies [westhillpartners.com]. They seem to specialize in Public Policy and Issues Advocacy Campaigns...From their site:
Re:America's Most Wanted (Score:2)
Unitology (Score:2, Informative)
reorganization of the 800mhz bandplan.
Uuh, what's mhz? milli-aysh-zee?
Or maybe the poster means MHz?
Re:Unitology (Score:2, Funny)
You found me out! I hope it didn't ruin everything too much for you.
Interference (Score:5, Informative)
Getting a license from the FCC is like buying a house. It's in your interest to know your neighbors and to make an effort to be a good neighbor. With that in mind, here's a few notes on what this whole fuss over interference is really about.
1. direct interference - someone transmits on someone else's frequency. This happens occassionally by accident and usually gets fixed quick. Nextel was once fined for doing this unintentionally a few years ago near New Orleans, LA.
2. co-channel interference - two entities each have a license to use the same frequency in geographically overlapping areas. The two parties are mutually responsible for making equipment and operating adjustments to eliminate interference.
3. equipment mis-configuration (including co-located equipment) - different companies often share the same tower sites and often the signal from one company's transmitter will "leak" into another causing mixed products and emissions outside licensed frequencies.
4. receiver desensitivity caused by proximity to low elevation, high power transmitter sites (ie. cell towers).
Nextel is causing problems for other 800Mhz licensees mostly as a result of items 3 and 4. Non-Nextel cell towers (like Verizon, Sprint, and AT&T) also cause #4 above but the problem is more severe when near a Nextel tower site because the transmissions are in the same band as the other non-Nextel users' equipment.
-rickRe:Interference (Score:1)
Re:Interference (Score:2)
Congress Shoud Vote For More Bandwith! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Congress Shoud Vote For More Bandwith! (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Congress Shoud Vote For More Bandwith! (Score:1)
Re:Congress Shoud Vote For More Bandwith! (Score:2)
They will accept bids with dollar amounts with unreal numbers, right??
See the whole spectrum (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:See the whole spectrum (Score:1)
To legitamate users of the bands it is much like saying that given the bazillion acres of realestate in the U.S. you shouldn't get so worked up if the quarter acre your house sits on should get "reallocated".
Re:See the whole spectrum (Score:1)
Either way Nextel gets hurt (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Either way Nextel gets hurt (Score:2)
Stealing candy from a baby... (Score:2, Interesting)
Do a sloppy deployment job. (That's the only excuse for the interference.)
Lead the technologically clueless, politically motivated FCC down the garden path. "Oh, we can't fix this. We did the best we could. You just muffed the band plan. Think of the children".
Sell the FCC on a 'fix' that leaves you smelling like a rose in the eyes of your stockholders.
There are aspects to this game that are yet to be revealed. Follow the money!
Follow the problems... (Score:2, Interesting)
Bit of history about the contentious 800 MHz band (Score:5, Insightful)
Public safety agencies started to move up to 800 MHz frequencies in the early 1980s. In some cases, these moves were promped by spectrum scarcity, but in many more instances it was equipment manufacturers (especially Motorola and Ericsson) who convinced local agencies to buy complicated and failure-prone trunked radio systems. These systems were often (though not always) solutions in search of problems, and their performance has often been questioned. It's clear that advanced communications technology doesn't necessarily guarantee the safety of personnel; quite the opposite is true, in fact. (Try Googling "trunked radio system problems" for more on this.)
Since 9/11, loud voices have been calling for "interoperability" in public safety communications, in order that different agencies might better be able to speak with one another. New 800 MHz (and now 700 MHz) systems have been touted as a solution. Unfortunately, competing and contentious departments (like the NYPD and NYFD) won't talk with one another regardless of how much money is spent on systems to connect them. New York City had an interagency 800 MHz system working on 9/11 (the DoITT system, for those familar with NYC comms), and it saw very little use. Interoperability is most often a social and cultural issue, not a technical issue.
Nextel plays a problematic role in public safety comms in another way. Many agencies, especially those engaging in undercover ops and including key Federal law enforcement agencies, prefer to let their own expensive radio systems gather dust and use Nextel handsets instead. Nextel offers comparative privacy (citizens can't monitor iDEN transmissions), group call, and cheap equipment. Tto the problem is that no proprietary system is as robust and reliable as many dedicated public safety radio systems. I'd hate to have to rely on a Nextel handset if I was doing risky undercover work -- I'd be competing for bandwidth with SMS spam and teenagers (Nextel markets to youth under the name Boost Mobile).
Anyway, as most of us know, there are other ways to address communications issues than to lock up spectrum in the name of a few large corps.
800MHz QRM & 700MHz reallotment (Score:2, Interesting)
(failure-prone: read this [geocities.com]... It's by no means the only such incident...)
And, I might add, to a considerable degree the fault for the problem lies with these equipment manufacturers. They knew (or certainly should have!) that there would be c
IDEN using seperate frequency band (Score:5, Interesting)
IDEN is a proprietary Motorola system afaik only used by NEXTEL.
Until 10 min ago I thought IDEN was using the same 800 MHz frequency band as all the other cellular standards in the US (AMPS, GSM, US-TDMA, CDMA) namely: Mobile transmit 824-849 MHz and Mobile Receive 869-894 MHz.
It looks like IDEN/NEXTEL for some obscure reason is using a lower frequency band namely: Mobile transmit 806-825 MHz and Mobile Receive 851-870 MHz. What a mess, why were they allowed to use these frequencies in the first place?
IDEN mobile transmit: 806-825 MHz
IDEN mobile receive: 851-870 MHz
US cellular transmit: 824-849 MHz
US cellular receive: 869-894 MHz
No wonder IDEN can cause problems the "normal" US cellular systems cannot.
For laughs I threw in some other frequencies.
World cellular transmit: 880-915 MHz (GSM900)
World cellular receive: 925-960 MHz (GSM900)
US PCS transmit: 1850-1910 MHz
US PCS receive: 1930-1990 MHz
World hi-band transmit:1710-1785 MHz (GSM1800)
World hi-band receive: 1805-1880 MHz (GSM1800)
UMTS transmit: 1920-2170 MHz (blocked in the US)
UMTS receive: 2110-2170 MHz (Blocked in the US)
Re:IDEN using seperate frequency band (Score:2)
iDEN is also used by Southern Linc - a competitor to Nextel that uses the same Motorola equipment.
-rickRe:IDEN using seperate frequency band (Score:2)
In Canada, Telus offers the same PTT service (called Mike) over iDEN. In fact, the Mike phones will roam on Nextel (but I don't think you can use the radio).
IIRC, they took it over when they bought ClearNet a number of years ago.
Verizon in the mix as well (Score:3, Interesting)
800Mhz is an irresponsible place to put emergency (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:800Mhz is an irresponsible place to put emergen (Score:3, Informative)
It is a difficult tradeoff between spectrum efficiency and coverage. A 150 MHz system would more or less cover New York City in one cell. On the surface this is cool, but it limits the available traffic.
In a city the size of NYC you might have mighty many police, firefighter, ambulance driver, national guard, Boy Scouts of America, etc etc that all have good reason to communicate with each other in case of an emergency. If you have a system that can only accomodate say 10000 calls at the time, that mig
It's MHz - let's get it right people! (Score:2, Funny)
Coming up: "Incorrect use of apostrophes!!" News at 11.
No .sig for you. Next!
Re:It's MHz - let's get it right people! (Score:1)
I second that, especially such honoured scientists as Dr Mega and Dr Hertz. ;-)
Re:It's MHz - let's get it right people! (Score:1)
Neither of which should be confused with Mr milli or Mr hazy.
700MHz for public safety == property tax increase (Score:2, Insightful)
"Pass this bond, or we might not be able to respond to your 911 call due to interference on our county radio system"
End legal protection to get technical development (Score:1)
These should be the services in which the message of open spectrum should be heard the loudest. Cognitive radios that cooperate to get the message through regardless of the environment of interference that they are in.
Instead the FCC is doing the exact opposite---allocating more "don't interfere here, please" spectrum. Does making it illegal stop it? no, instead it makes the whole system vulnerable to people wantin
i already decided (Score:2)
set up a meeting with all the carrier companies. if one doesnt attend, they give up their rights to have a say in it. propose 1 of 2 solutions for the companies to vote on
1) nextel gets the new frequencies for free because the emergency services need the ones nextel already has, and they shouldnt have to pay for having something taken away from them - yes they get better frequencies for free, its calle
Nextel vs Public Safety (Score:1)
I have a Nextel phone, and I also work for the local police department who, like many others, are using Motorola's Astro (APCO 25) trunked radio system. I've had more problems with the Nextel phone interfering with OTHER equipment in the patrol car than I've had with the radio. I do know that the frequencies we use are close to Nextel's. I often have the phone and radio on my belt side-by-side, and I have not had any problems to date, luckily.
Ultimately the ch
Re:Wireless household phones (Score:2, Informative)
Way back when... (Score:1, Informative)
Re:Way back when... (Score:2)
Back when I was a boy........
Re:Wireless household phones (Score:5, Informative)
But on a related note, I have some pro-audio wireless mic gear that uses 800MHz; I think it's fairly common in UHF pro gear. I'd really hate to have to replace this stuff because I can't get a clean signal for my band gigs, and I'm sure I'm far from alone here. (And that leads me to a digression - I wish more of this pro gear would use programmable oscillators/ frequency synthesizers so they wouldn't lock you into just one or two frequencies. Bleah...)
Re:Wireless household phones (Score:2)
Re:Wireless household phones (Score:5, Informative)
When I think 800mhz I think VHF UHF my self. Some people prefer to call it VHF for some reason.
Cable Channels 126-141 805.25-895.25mhz according to my Kworld video card. I've never seen these used.
UHF channel 69 801.25mhz.. 70-83 I believe were the ones realocated to celular 806-890mhz.
http://www.inactivex.net/cellular/800MHz.html
I'm less familar with the 800mhz emergency frequencies.
900mhz I believe is what you're thinking of... I'm a cheep bastard and I own a pair of 900mhz cordless phones.
Re:Wireless household phones (Score:2)
Anyway, those cordless phones are very low power, and the transceivers are generally very close to eachother, so if they're built correctly, that use of the band should be a non-issue.
What happens to other 800Mhz cariers? (Score:2)