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Printer HP The Almighty Buck Your Rights Online

HP Discusses Anti-Counterfeiting Measures 644

JohnA writes "While searching for drivers for an HP printer that was given to me, I noticed an article on the front page of hp.com that brags about how HP's R&D department was able to insert flaws into their products to 'deter' counterfeiting. I'm so glad we have HP looking out for us..."
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HP Discusses Anti-Counterfeiting Measures

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  • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

    Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • seems to me they're acting perfectly ethically and responsibly. Counterfeit currency is a significant cost for many businesses (particularly small cash-based businesses) and the cost ends up being passed on to consumers. Good for HP if they try to prevent their technology being used to facilitate counterfeiting.

      It takes a serious disconnect from the real world to see something threatening about this.
      • Can I play too? (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 06, 2004 @02:53PM (#8204077)
        "Counterfeit currency is a significant cost for many businesses"

        Oh good, facts without proof. Can I play?

        Counterfeiting actually helps the typical small business in that it increases the number and amount of cash flowing through the local economy.

        Surprising, and counterintuitively, studies have indicated for years that counterfeiting is mostly a concern of hollywood movies and that in a large economy such as that of the united states, counterfeiting has proven to be so difficult as to be a non-problem.

        Do you see how easy it is when you can just make up facts? You make up facts, I make up facts, we all make up facts, and we still have no understanding, just the word of a *lawyer* to shed light on the truth. Please, no snickering from the back row.
        • No, counterfeiting especially hurts small businesses!!! When somebody uses a copied 20 in a vending machine, the bank makes the machine's owner eat that $20. I agree that it's really not as lucrative as it once was due to the immense amount of effort needed, but with all of today's automated bill acceptors, once a flaw is found it gets very expensive to deal with people essentially stealing.

          I think what HP is doing is smart! It sounds like the printers have created a way to tag money so digital devices

          • Re:Can I play too? (Score:4, Insightful)

            by Wavicle ( 181176 ) on Friday February 06, 2004 @06:04PM (#8206921)
            No, bad bill acceptors cost small business.

            There were several anti-counterfeiting measures in the last $20 bill and they got around it. How? Because the bill acceptors are not using appropriate technology.

            There's a strip in that $20 bill that fluoresces under UV light. Can the printer print that strip? No. Does the bill collector check that strip? No.

            Does the acceptor check the color changing ink? No.

            Does the acceptor check the watermark? No.

            Does the acceptor check the microprinting? No, but it is not practical to expect the bill acceptor to check that.

            There are many features for which it would be too expensive to have an electronic bill acceptor check, but some things, like the strip, are fairly easy to check and extremely difficult to counterfeit.

      • by rtkluttz ( 244325 ) on Friday February 06, 2004 @02:56PM (#8204122) Homepage
        Absolutely wrong. Too many times in this age, people are punished for what they MAY do wrong. That is NOT the way it was intended for this country to function.

        I really get bent out of shape over this type of lawmaking (DVD/CD encryption, Macrovision, currency detection) are all. I don't care if only ONE SINGLE PERSON is out there using any technology lawfully, then it is wrong to do this. Punish the people who actually DO the wrong thing. Not everyone.

        .
        • This has nothing to do with laws, crimes or punishment.

          If HP wants to make a printer that prints all text in piglatin and all images inside out and upside down, they can go ahead and do so. No law says you have to buy or use it.
      • by deman1985 ( 684265 ) <dedwards&kappastone,com> on Friday February 06, 2004 @03:54PM (#8205055) Homepage
        I'm quite curious just exactly what they mean by flaws to deter counterfeiting. If I send an image to the printer that I want printed, I don't want my printer altering that image in any way-- regardless of what the image may be. If the printer doesn't do its job, then it's going in the trash. Period.

        Why so many companies are choosing to focus on anti-counterfeiting measures anymore also confuses me. Unless things have really changed in recent years, counterfeiting isn't exactly a big problem. You might see a news story or two about it on occasion, but it's really just not that common, and there are good reasons why.

        For one thing, standard printers are simply not very good at making even sub-standard counterfeit bills. The texture isn't right, the colors aren't quite right, there's no authenticity strip embedded in the paper (in $5's and above), and even the aroma of the paper and ink isn't quite right-- money has its own smell. Because of this, anybody who knows anything about money and has had their hands on cash at least a few times during their life can easily tell the difference between a real and a fake if they bother to pay the least bit of attention to these properties.

        Second of all, the time and effort required to produce anything of acceptable quality that won't be checked for authenticity (ie, less than $100) using a commercial printer far outweighs the value of money counterfitted. Yeah, you may be able to get away with faking a handful of 20's, but you'll have spent a good couple thousand dollars on a printer that's good enough, the proper equipment to cut everything, the paper, etc. Anybody willing to invest this much time and effort into counterfitting is going to expect more return from it, and so they are going to find some other method.

        What it comes down to is that these companies probably invested a lot more money into creating these anti-counterfeiting technologies than will be saved from bad money. So in essence, they've crippled my photoshop software and my printer for nothing.
      • If it's hurting businesses then maybe the US should do what every other country in the world has done and make banknotes that are hard to forge?

        Trying to solve the problem at the printer level is ridiculous; it's like trying to solve the spam problem with intelligent monitors.

    • by LnxAddct ( 679316 ) <sgk25@drexel.edu> on Friday February 06, 2004 @02:36PM (#8203828)
      They said that at certain densities of bank note green the printer changes color bands noticeably. I am an amateur photographer and have recently taken pictures of some interesting fields and other natural settings just after the sun has completely set but still has the surrounding slightly lit. The green in the pictures is fairly dark but not too dark and I wonder if these new printers would print them out looking like it was day light on the grass and dusk everywhere else. The pictures turned out really nice and I intend to do some other similar ones in the future. I currently print with an HP printer, but I can't see getting another HP being a viable option once this printer breaks. A photographer would like his pictures to print as photorealistic as possible without having to worry about whether or not it will print wierd, especially when your in the middle of shooting. This is ridiculous.
      Regards,
      Steve
      P.S. And no, film is not a viable option, especially long term, considering that major companies like Kodak are going to stop selling film.
      • P.S. And no, film is not a viable option, especially long term, considering that major companies like Kodak are going to stop selling film.



        I must have missed the press release where Kodak announced that they were going to stop making film.



        Digital might be competitive for 35 mm but plenty of photographers need more than that. Nothing on the market can compete with 6x7 or larger formats.



        Kodak will be making film for quite a while.


      • Bah!
        Kids today and their new fangled color laser printers and 9600dpi scanners.
        Back when I was a kid we started with two blocks of solid steel, a sharp pokey scrapey tool, and a magnifying glass. Then we painstakingly had to carve away at the steel until we had a matched set of plates, loaded up a super pressure stomper and fed it special linen based paper and uberGreen ink. Took months, maybe a year to get a good rig running.

        And we were THANKFUL!

        Ever want to see some good old school counterfeiting, wat
  • DAMN (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Shit thats terrible. They insert flaws just so we can NOT do things with thier products? Hello, I'm the customer....are they commiting corporate suicide or what? It's like saying, oh we put some holes in your boat - just in case you decide to race against cops they will open and you will sink!
    • Re:DAMN (Score:3, Funny)

      by mike_mgo ( 589966 )
      I was pissed that my new hp printer couldn't make me a grilled cheese sandwich either. I know a printer isn't supposed to be able to make me a sandwich (just like it's not supposed to be able to make counterfeit money). But how dare they not give me that capability. Damn them.
      • Re:DAMN (Score:3, Funny)

        You *can* make a grilled chesse sandwich with your HP printer. You just have to pre-heat it properly. The tricky part is cleaning up the butter residue.
  • pattern merging (Score:4, Insightful)

    by tverbeek ( 457094 ) on Friday February 06, 2004 @02:20PM (#8203550) Homepage
    I don't think you need a tin-foil hat to start drawing the dots between Adobe, Jasc, and HP, and coming up with a picture of the government putting pressure on companies to handicap their products like this. It certainly isn't market demand that's motivating them.
    • Re:pattern merging (Score:4, Interesting)

      by GoofyBoy ( 44399 ) on Friday February 06, 2004 @02:25PM (#8203612) Journal
      >It certainly isn't market demand that's motivating them.

      Heaven forbid that a company has a motive to do anything but market demand.

      Like ethics and corporate responsiblity.
      • You're forgetting "coercion" as another (probably more likely) possible explanation.
      • Re:pattern merging (Score:5, Insightful)

        by terraformer ( 617565 ) <tpb@pervici.com> on Friday February 06, 2004 @02:38PM (#8203875) Journal
        Heaven forbid that a company has a motive to do anything but market demand.
        Like ethics and corporate responsiblity.

        Coming from the coprporation whose CEO recently defended outsourcing jobs by stating "Workers do not have a God given right to a job", I am not sure their ethics are particularly aligned with the little guy...

    • Re:pattern merging (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Prince Vegeta SSJ4 ( 718736 ) on Friday February 06, 2004 @02:29PM (#8203687)
      Maybe/Maybe not just US government. I have a pretty fancy Lanier (Ricoh) Network Printer/Scanner/Fax. No not an all in one $500 job like they sell at compusa, were talking several thousand. Anyway, after reading the article on Adobe's algorithm which detects the pattern of circles, I scanned an older $20 on this and a 1$, they scan with YELLOW tint. There is obviously something in the scanner that protects against currency forgery.

      No I'm not trying to make money, just did an empirical test.

    • nice excerpt (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Greedo ( 304385 )
      Until the 1990s, when the U.S. Bureau of Engraving and Printing added new security measures such as a watermark and a security thread, U.S. banknotes had changed little for decades. Federal officials told the HP team they wanted to keep it that way.

      That precluded any major changes to the currency itself, including techniques used by some other currencies. The Euro, for example, contains fluorescent fibers and foil features, which cannot easily be reproduced by conventional copiers or printers.


      So, the US
  • My Rights Online (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Pave Low ( 566880 ) on Friday February 06, 2004 @02:21PM (#8203556) Journal
    How is counterfeiting currency part of My Rights, again?

    • by way2trivial ( 601132 ) on Friday February 06, 2004 @02:27PM (#8203650) Homepage Journal
      your ability to use your printer for free speech?
      wanna make a joke trillion dollar bill to represent the deficit with a disingenious picture of GWB as a protest?
      you can't -- first amendment issue
      • by b0r0din ( 304712 ) on Friday February 06, 2004 @02:28PM (#8203677)
        wanna make a joke trillion dollar bill to represent the deficit with a disingenious picture of GWB as a protest?

        You'd need seven of them...No, wait 8....9....
      • by GoofyBoy ( 44399 ) on Friday February 06, 2004 @02:29PM (#8203703) Journal
        Even with HP doing this you still have the ability to do so. Just not with their products.

        So how is this a first amendment issue?
      • WHAT? HP infringing on my RIGHT to make a joke trillion dollar bill? Get me Alan Dershowitz on the line! My point? You sound bloody ridiculous. You point out the line in the Bill of Rights that protects the printing of joke currency and then we'll talk.
        • by Speare ( 84249 ) on Friday February 06, 2004 @02:34PM (#8203795) Homepage Journal
          Amendment IX

          The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

        • by poot_rootbeer ( 188613 ) on Friday February 06, 2004 @03:53PM (#8205025)
          You point out the line in the Bill of Rights that protects the printing of joke currency and then we'll talk.

          Amendment I

          Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
    • by dk.r*nger ( 460754 ) on Friday February 06, 2004 @02:28PM (#8203669)
      It's not.

      But your $4000 printer ruining your prints, because an algorithm thinks it's a bank note is kinda crummy, y'know..

    • Re:My Rights Online (Score:4, Interesting)

      by bersl2 ( 689221 ) on Friday February 06, 2004 @02:28PM (#8203671) Journal
      You have the right to use the image of the dollar, as long as you do not attempt to pass it off as legal tender.

      And if you don't, then you should.
    • by tepples ( 727027 ) <tepplesNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Friday February 06, 2004 @02:28PM (#8203674) Homepage Journal

      Not all uses of banknote images [rulesforuse.org] are prohibited. For example, a one-sided illustration of a U.S. Federal Reserve Note not between 75% and 150% of actual size is a fair use. Some people have shown how some of the anti-counterfeiting technologies interfere with fair use of banknote images.

    • by redink1 ( 519766 )
      Some people view such drastic matters (such as telling what a scanner can scan and what a printer can print and what photoshop can edit) will only be further abused with time, and this is just the first step.

      When Microsoft's Pallidium project is put into effect, it will be mostly worthless because someone can just take a photo of their computer screen, bypassing all of the digital interference checking. But what if it a digital camera will refuse to take such a picture, and a scanner will refuse to scan

    • by H1r0Pr0tag0n1st ( 449433 ) on Friday February 06, 2004 @02:32PM (#8203762)
      For what it's worth...

      IANAL. But my best friend is. He is also a secret service agent.
      According to him, scanning currency into your computer is not against the law. Nor is printing it out.
      Violation of federal counterfeiting laws does not actually occur until you try to pass off the fake currency as real. In other words it is not the act of creating the bill that is against the law but the intent to defraud with it.

      • And the Secret Service is the one who prosecutes counterfeiters.

        Funny story (but not for the guy who did it), a few years ago my brother was working as a bartender at a popular nightclub. One of his customers starts spending some big money (nothing really suspicious there, however), but mentions that he is about to go into prision for a few years. At that point, he received a some crisp new bills with a 'different' feel to them. He looked at it, and it didnt look right, so he tested it with his 'fake mon

      • Re:My Rights Online (Score:5, Informative)

        by GoofyBoy ( 44399 ) on Friday February 06, 2004 @02:55PM (#8204099) Journal
        Ask your friend again.

        From: http://www.pgca.org/pages/topics/currency.htm

        Printed reproductions, including photographs of paper currency, checks, bonds, postage stamps, revenue stamps, and securities of the United States and foreign governments (except under the conditions previously listed) are violations of Title 18, Section 474 of the United States Code. Violations are punishable by a fine or imprisonment for up to 15 years, or both.

        And the conditions talk about destroying masters and size limits.
        • Re:My Rights Online (Score:4, Informative)

          by beegle ( 9689 ) on Friday February 06, 2004 @03:32PM (#8204693) Homepage
          (except under the conditions previously listed)

          Those conditions that you neglected to mention make all the difference. From the page referenced above:

          There are three main criteria included in the Counterfeit Detection Act of 1992, Section 411 of Title 31 that permits color illustrations of U.S. currency. First, the illustration site must be less than three fourths or more than one-and-a-half times the size of the actual currency. The same holds true if you are printing just a part of an item. Secondly, the illustration must be one-sided. Finally, all negatives, plates, positives, digitized storage medium, graphic files, magnetic medium, optical storage devices, and any other thing used in the making of the illustration must be destroyed and/or deleted after their final use. This policy permits the use of currency reproductions in commercial advertisements, provided they conform to the size restrictions.
          So it's entirely legal for me to print out a one-sided 11"x17" picture of a $100 bill if I destroy the scan after use. If I use an HP product, though, I'll be stopped.
    • by hehman ( 448117 ) on Friday February 06, 2004 @02:44PM (#8203948) Homepage Journal
      How is counterfeiting currency part of My Rights, again? So you can make, um, backups in case your original bills are lost or stolen?
    • Re:My Rights Online (Score:4, Interesting)

      by rixstep ( 611236 ) on Friday February 06, 2004 @03:49PM (#8204962) Homepage
      Because, very simply, counterfeiting is not the sole or even major reason to do this. This has been argued elsewhere by experts in the field who are far better equipped to banter on the subject, but it's more or less ascertained as a fact.

      Not that the currency people will go along with this, of course.

      The Swedish Riksbanken, for example, offers special images to photographers, in an attempt to appease people on both sides of the issue.

  • by Anonymous Coward
    ...only outlaws will couterfeit money.

    Oh, wait a minute...
  • Ha! (Score:2, Funny)

    by Raindance ( 680694 ) *
    ... and an add for a new HP computer immediately follows the article.

    Beautiful.
  • Well... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by trickofperspective ( 180714 ) on Friday February 06, 2004 @02:22PM (#8203570) Homepage
    At least they're upfront and forthcoming about it. It's they're gamble on if it will affect sales or not, but at least they were responsible enought not to try sneaking [adobe.com] it in.

    -Trick
  • by mobiux ( 118006 ) on Friday February 06, 2004 @02:22PM (#8203576)
    "In May 2003 U.S. officials announced a radical new design for the $20 bill that includes several new, confidential counterfeit-deterrence features. These measures include adding light shades of blue, peach and green to the $20 bill as an anti-counterfeiting measure. (Note: The peach bills premiered in October 2003)."

    Way to keep the confidentiallity going there HP!!!

  • Well, (Score:4, Informative)

    by JediDan ( 214076 ) on Friday February 06, 2004 @02:23PM (#8203585)
    they can make crippled products that won't print money, or they can make money you can't print.
    I'd think that if the government of any country is having enough of a problem with fake money they should move to digital money. They already do for bank transfers and credit cards, why not go all the way?
    • Re:Well, (Score:3, Insightful)

      by jlechem ( 613317 )
      There was a show on the histroy channel about this. There is a lot of digital money currecny going on. But for some reason people like cold hard cash. There's nothing like having bills/coins in your wallet.
      • Re:Well, (Score:3, Funny)

        by IdleTime ( 561841 )
        Damn right!

        With money in your "pocket", your electronic account can't be emptied by scumbags. Nor do you have to worry about banks charging outragous fees for their services. Of course there are other problems related to having money in your pocket.
  • by Tiroth ( 95112 ) on Friday February 06, 2004 @02:23PM (#8203587) Homepage
    If you are prototyping circuit boards, and probably if you are doing other kinds of offset-critical printing (graphic arts?), the behavior of purposefully mis-registering the printouts could be a real pain. In these situations, thousandths of an inch do matter.
    • Would you really use HP printers for this?

      Thousandths of an inch is an extreme tolerance a probally requires a non-commerical printer.
    • Offset doesn't matter to me at all. I don't print my PCB masks double sided. I print each on a seprate sheet with registration marks which are aligned when I produce the negatives. I certanly don't load the printer with double sided printed circuit stock and directly try to print properly registered pattern on the board. The negatives are registered and contact printed to the circuit board.
  • by onyxruby ( 118189 ) <onyxruby&comcast,net> on Friday February 06, 2004 @02:24PM (#8203591)
    With queen carly declaring her love for all things drm and protecting the megacorps from the great unwashed masses, one has to wonder where it stops. How long until my printer wont print a copy of a cd label with "adobe" on it? How long until my scanner refuses to scan in the most recent article from "time"? At what point do they stop trying to make my choices for me? This is probably just practice under the auspices of preventing counterfeiting to get things right for upcoming DRM castrated mobos and hard disks. At what point while I stop "owning" hardware I buy and discover in actuality I have license that includes some hardware on the side?
    • What you do not know (Score:3, Interesting)

      by bstadil ( 7110 )
      What you do not know seems to me the biggest problem

      I have no problem with counterfeit measures in Abobe or now in HP's product.

      That is as long as I know that it is there. My real concern is all the gunk that is inside commercial closed source software the we do not know.

      Think the CIA has not placed a few lines inside Windows? I bet you that a lot of the behind the scene actions against FOOS is driven by Government agencies and politicians Not because the like MS or Adobe etc, but because they know th

  • Drivers and Flaws (Score:3, Informative)

    by Devil Ducky ( 48672 ) <slashdot@devilducky.org> on Friday February 06, 2004 @02:24PM (#8203594) Homepage
    The only HP printer driver I've ever needed was from cups.org. But if someone can tell me why after every print job it spits out one extra piece of paper, I'd be very happy.

    The only flaw I've ever had with my printer is that it only prints 4 pages a minute (if you're lucky), hence why I got it for free.
    • Re:Drivers and Flaws (Score:3, Informative)

      by HardCase ( 14757 )
      Try putting :sf:\ in your /etc/printcap file. That's colon sf colon backslash. Check out "man printcap" for details.
  • by rlthomps-1 ( 545290 ) on Friday February 06, 2004 @02:24PM (#8203605) Homepage
    ...here at the United Counterfitters of North America (UCNA) when I say that we will no longer be patronizing HP for any of their printing products. Crippled products such as this simply don't fit our needs.
  • I don't fault them (Score:4, Interesting)

    by MacEnvy ( 549188 ) <jbocinski&bocinski,com> on Friday February 06, 2004 @02:25PM (#8203610) Journal
    Hey, it really doesn't affect most consumers. The "flaws" don't seem to do any damage, so what's the harm? It isn't much different than putting on an asset tag - it just verifies a legitimate product. RTFA.

    That said, HP makes some of the most reliable office printers available, and their printer support is excellent. I've worked on hundreds of HP LaserJet printers in the last couple of years, and they are uniformly fantastic to maintain and repair.

  • by southpolesammy ( 150094 ) on Friday February 06, 2004 @02:26PM (#8203627) Journal
    Of course, HP isn't going into the currency-printing business...

    No, that would infringe upon SCO's business model and IP rights....
  • by blorg ( 726186 ) on Friday February 06, 2004 @02:26PM (#8203643)
    "Another challenge: Most people can't identify a counterfeit bill. Sang says federal officials showed him one-sided bills and even black and white bills that had been passed."

    Reminds me of when the Euro came out first, and there were incidents of 'forgers' [bbc.co.uk] passing Monopoly money, and pictures of the Euro that had been cut out of the newspaper.

    Looks like stupidity knows no nationality.

  • by el-spectre ( 668104 ) on Friday February 06, 2004 @02:28PM (#8203678) Journal
    How the hell do you make decent counterfeits w/o the polyester paper that bills are made with? ANY half decent cashier can tell paper from a bill by touch, let alone the dozen other easily checked features.

    If your store hires people dumb enough to accept 1 sided black and white bills... you have bigger problems.
    • by stvangel ( 638594 ) on Friday February 06, 2004 @03:14PM (#8204393)
      US currency isn't printed on polyester, it's a 75% cotton, 25% linen mix. The paper comes from one particular company that keeps the process a closely guarded secret. Almost all the paper you buy in the store is wood-based. This is how those cheap counterfeit detector pens work. All they are is an iodine solution that changes color if it detects the starch in the wood-based paper.

      There are lots of ways the counterfeiters get around this issue. Wash the ink off real notes ( like 1$ bills ) and print fake 20's on them. Use parchment type paper and "mess it up". Put it in the dryer for a while. Dirty it up. Fresh paper is easy to tell, but dirty is a lot harder. Most money starts lookin pretty crappy after it's been in circulation for a while.

      Most cashiers don't have the time or inclination to examine every bill they're given. If you hand somebody 5 $20's at Best Buy to buy a couple of videogames, do you think the cashier is actually gonna scrutinize each bill one-by-one? When they have a line of 5 people backed up? Make the top and bottom $20s real ones, and put one or two fake ones in the middle, and 95% of the time they won't notice.

      It's the stupid and/or greedy counterfeiters that get caught. If you understand how people think, you can do a lot to get away with it. Do one or two bills mixed in with real ones. Don't do a lot to the same people. Use smaller bills like 10's or 5's. Who even thinks about counterfeit versions of those? Learn what places use to detect counterfeits and tailor your bills to them. If a place uses the counterfeit detector pens, print your bills on non wood-based paper and your bills are automatically real because the counterfeit detector pens say they are. You know how easy it is to defeat them, but the average person has no idea and accepts their results on blind faith.

      It's just another example of social engineering. You can get people do to or believe ridiculous things depending on how you present things.
  • ...at least, their DesignJet 10ps printer does. I bought two for a client. One has worked fine from day one. As for the other, it was dodgy out of the box-- spontaneous reboots, things of that sort. We shipped it back and got a new one, which lasted only a few days before it became incapable of satisfactorily aligning its print heads, resulting in output blurry enough to give you a headache. Replacement three arrived yesterday. It gave us a flawless print head alignment on the first try, and printed three b
  • "Inserting flaws"? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Dlugar ( 124619 ) on Friday February 06, 2004 @02:30PM (#8203716) Homepage
    At first I thought this nonsense about "inserting flaws" was just the usual Slashdot ridiculosity in story summaries--I figured HP would probably just give some error when trying to print money, or at worst fiddle with the color green (which they do) ... but then I saw this:
    Two-sided documents - This technique takes advantage of the front-to-back registration accuracy of HP printers by changing the position of objects an infinitesimal amount, too little to be seen by most people, but enough so that a machine can detect it.
    So it seems that they are deliberately introducing flaws in their two-sided document printing ... do they honestly think, if "one-sided bills and even black and white bills" are passed with little problems, that a change of position "too little to be seen by most people" will do anything but annoy people who are trying to print two-sided documents with exactness?

    Absolutely ridiculous.

    Dlugar
  • by Kenja ( 541830 ) on Friday February 06, 2004 @02:30PM (#8203722)
    I tried to make a copy of a 20$ bill on a cheap HP Officejet G95. It came out perfect, if I where to spend a bit of time roughing it up the result would have been very hard to tell from a real bill. Instead it went into the cross shredder. The point is that most counterfeit bills are not being made in large quantities but by people making one or two fake bills each.
  • by mattkime ( 8466 ) on Friday February 06, 2004 @02:31PM (#8203741)
    What if I have a legit reason to copy currency?
  • by dk.r*nger ( 460754 ) on Friday February 06, 2004 @02:32PM (#8203758)
    While searching for drivers for an HP printer that was given to me..

    HP printers are textbook-example standards compliant. They don't use drivers.

    Now, seriously, what were you doing on HP.com?
  • by bhny ( 97647 ) <`bh' `at' `usa.net'> on Friday February 06, 2004 @02:35PM (#8203817) Homepage

    In Australia the notes are made from plastic with a transparent section [techtv.com].

    It's not something you could make with a scanner and a printer

  • by Theovon ( 109752 ) on Friday February 06, 2004 @02:36PM (#8203830)
    Unfortunately, the vast majority of people who buy HP printers don't care about these things.

    HP, like most inkjet printer manufacturers, produces printers which have an inordinately high operating cost due to the cost of ink carts and their relatively short lifespan. But does this stop people from buying them?

    Absolutely not.

    HP has a reputation for producing inexpensive printers and proving good customer service for them. I have an HP Photosmart 1115, and I had a problem with it. No biggie. They fed-ex'ed me a new one with instructions as to how to package the old one and send it back. It didn't cost me a dime and it took a matter of a couple of days to handle the complete transaction.

    They can afford to do this because their profit margins on the ink are so high. And since most people don't add up the cost of ink, they don't realize just how much they're spending. They only know that the printer was cheap and they can actually talk to a human if they want technical support.

    This doesn't mean I intend to buy more HP inkjet printers. Since I bought the photosmart, I have learned a lot about inkjets, laser printers, and operating costs. I know there are better alternatives.

    But we slashdotters are somewhat unusual among humans in that we tend to research what we buy rather than judging products based on plastic color and price tag at BestBuy. We are, unfortunately, a tiny minority. Those who are not like us will continue to buy more and more HP printers and ink carts.
  • Detecting currency (Score:4, Interesting)

    by PGillingwater ( 72739 ) on Friday February 06, 2004 @02:40PM (#8203896) Homepage
    One measure used by a scanner to detect currency is to look for five small circles, arranged in a specific pattern. These may be found on certain major currencies, including Euros, Pounds and Dollars.
  • by freeio ( 527954 ) on Friday February 06, 2004 @02:46PM (#8203983) Homepage
    This new "feature" causes a dilemma for the professional photographic community. Image if you will the wedding where the bridesmaids' dresses are in a lovely shade of "banknote green" (quite possible given the wild colors we see at weddings) and that the printer decides that it must put banding in the proof prints, because it might be counterfiet money. Now, imagine explaining to the the bride's mother why the stripes in the pictures are there. Ugh. HP broke their printers intentionally, and it will come back and bite them in strange and wonderful ways.

    Yes, what they describe may indeed work great for the intended purpose of reducing the accuracy of their printers under certain circumstances, but the fact of reducing their output quality will sometimes cause user problems which are totally unrelated to counterfeiting. Their software simply cannot be smart enough to avoid the false positives which will most certainly occur.
    • Now, imagine explaining to the the bride's mother why the stripes in the pictures are there. Ugh. HP broke their printers intentionally, and it will come back and bite them in strange and wonderful ways.

      Now, imagine a world where professional photographers print on $200 inkjet printers... go ahead... and now shoot yourself because everyone in this world is abysmally stupid.

      Please. Professional photographers don't print crap on these cheapo printers. They use much, much higher end stuff that's completely
    • No dilemma here.

      "These proofs were done on an HP printer that adds artifacts - see here and here? - when it tries to print something that it thinks is counterfit money. Those gowns were just the right color. Now, I did this proof on photographic paper to show you how the prints will really look."

      For what wedding photographers are known to charge, as a customer of theirs I'd be appalled to get proofs done on a cheap HP printer.

      If HP's doing their job right - as they described in the article - Money Gr
  • by mark-t ( 151149 ) <markt.nerdflat@com> on Friday February 06, 2004 @02:56PM (#8204112) Journal
    In addition to the assorted anti-counterfeiting measures that are found in most money such as microprinting, special paper, etc... Canada's newest issues of currency have an anti-counterfeitting measure that I think would probably impede all but the most determined individual (who would probably need so much money in order to obtain the resources to counterfeit in the first place that there's not much sense in them actually counterfeitting).

    What Canada has done is to use a UV ink design that will readily show up under even the simplest UV light source. If cashier desks are set up with a small UV lamp facing down towards the cash desk, the money simply has to be passed under this lamp and forgeries spotted in a fraction of a second as the UV ink design flouresces quite brightly.

    I have yet to see any home printer that can take UV inks, so I'd be willing to bet that the reasources required to obtain one would mostly defeat the purpose of counterfeitting anyways.

    Btw, for people who think just throwing money at the cashier and walking away might offer a counterfeitter a way past this, my experience is that for movies, they won't even let you into the seating area at all without your receipt from the cash desk (which means you have to hang onto the receipt for the duration of the film, since you will need it to get back in if you momentarily leave to get popcorn, for example).

  • My Rights! (Score:4, Funny)

    by lowrez ( 449304 ) on Friday February 06, 2004 @02:57PM (#8204131)
    HP is infringing on my rights to backup and store copies of my currency for archival purposes. ;)
  • by l0ungeb0y ( 442022 ) on Friday February 06, 2004 @03:02PM (#8204204) Homepage Journal
    We as the consumers and public should not have to settle for purposefullly flawed merchandise. Especially as this could set a rather nasty precident fullly in the manufacturers favor.

    When companies introduce flaws into their product as a means to prevent theft, we are the ones paying the price.
    This is not the first such "flaw" that has been introduced, remember those audio CD's that were given "flawed" audio so as to make them unreproduceable?

    The problem with this flaw is that it is the actual mechanics of the merchandise we are buying. They will be selling a printer that is made to not print as well as it could.
    Any one want to challenge this in court?
    It's fully in HP's favor and could set precident for many other manufacturers. Down the road this could have serious implications as to the quallity of the technology the public recieves. In effect, rolling back decades of progress and empowerment of the common man. Multi-media and desktop publishing were still very expensive in the early 90's... look at the cost to get into that now, magnitudes of order less. What this threatens is to lock us out of the high-end, and put the power back into the hands of the businesses. This effect will not be felt this year or the next, but in 5 or 6 years.

    What I find rather ugly about this is that currency is something that enjoys uncontested proprietaryship in it's manufacture. A few years back they did a massive overhaul, adding special strips woven into the paper fibers, special inks that would last through wear/tear and show up under UV light, a special paper fabrication, and now the color process and microdetialing that has been added to this years 20's.

    Why is it that the consumer must pay when our goverment has the ability to alter the currency at will? The only argument I could see that would make sense is the old "greenback" that can still be found in circulation.
    And if that's the case, do like the euro and put out a public moratorium worlwide, "Redeem you greenbacks for up to date currency by so and so date" and those who miss that date, tough.

    But to stifle the consumer and intentionally flaw the product? There may be a day not too far from now where noothing really works as well as it should.

  • by gone.fishing ( 213219 ) on Friday February 06, 2004 @03:04PM (#8204230) Journal
    I know I am in the minority of slashdoters here but I think that HP is being ethical and responsible in their efforts to protect currency from unauthorized duplication.

    My concern isn't that they are doing this but that the methods and perhaps the very technology that they use may (and in some cases will) interfere with legit uses. Crooks are smart, inventive, and resourceful. This means that the "lock" that HP and other manufacturers use has to be tough and almost necessarily will interfere with some legal uses.

    The part that I keyed on was the front to back registration. If it is so small that humans won't notice it, how will that prevent counterfiting? Yet, in some applications, where you are printing on transparent Mylar, I can see this being a significant drawback! I know that this kind of stuff isn't done by everyone every day but it can be done for artistic purposes now. Laying a background layer on the backside of a transparency adds richness and depth to the foreground. I am not an engineer but I suspect that this same kind of trick is often used when designing limited run double sided circuit board masks.

    Crooks can walk into any computer store and buy a box of blank checks and print out whatever they want on the checks including whatever routing number and account number they want. These checks can then be easily passed wherever a check can be cashed using a fake ID purchased over the internet or from someone who specializes in such forgeries. Why hasn't there been a hue and cry over this? Because it isn't currency, banks and people eat the cost of these crimes.

    HP has the right idea but needs a better implimentation. People (especially clerks) need to be better at spotting counterfit bills, and even high schoolers with scanners and printers have to be afraid of getting busted. Counterfitting is a crime that is being done more frequently by juveniles who get their hands slapped only if they get caught. The "system" needs to fix this.

  • INK! (Score:3, Informative)

    by OS24Ever ( 245667 ) * <trekkie@nomorestars.com> on Friday February 06, 2004 @03:09PM (#8204310) Homepage Journal
    If you read the SEC filing you would see that about 90% of their profits comes from INK! No wonder they want to do R&D into ways of controlling us further from printing.

    I have a Canon for the record, but their INK! is just as expensive. but i prefer to use a company that does innovate instead of stagnate.
  • Ummmm.... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by faust2097 ( 137829 ) on Friday February 06, 2004 @03:10PM (#8204331)
    Just like in the Adobe case people seem to be igoring the "why" of the whole situation.

    Does HP want to include these technologies? Hell no. Just like Adobe [and every other company that makes imaging software, printers, scanners and copiers] they're under tremendous pressure from the government to include this stuff. I don't know exactly what legal precedent the feds have over including this stuff but everyone in the industry is complying.

    There's several more techniques that aren't mentioned in that article as well including ways for counterfeits to be traced to specific [as in serial number] devices on higher-end equipment.
  • But...but...but... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by iminplaya ( 723125 ) on Friday February 06, 2004 @03:21PM (#8204510) Journal
    Good: HP likes Linux and open source
    Bad: HP supports DRM and "trusted computing"

    Somebody please...tell me. Am I sopposed to like HP or hate HP?
  • by multimed ( 189254 ) <{moc.oohay} {ta} {aidemitlumrm}> on Friday February 06, 2004 @03:32PM (#8204688)
    Lynch, Raman and many others at HP put their considerable imaging expertise to work, collaborating with officials and technical teams from various public- and private-sector organizations. (The names of these organizations must remain confidential).
    OK so I get and totally agree that some of the techniques for making money more secure & harder to counterfeit should be confidential. No problem. But could some one please explain to me exactly why the names of the organizations must remain confidential? What a crock. Anyone who pays taxes has every right to see how those tax dollars are spent. It seems to me that this falls squarely on the jurisdiction of the government agency set up specifically for that purpose...the Treasury Department. Why do others need to be involved at all, let alone secretly. Or is it just a matter of more private-sector companies getting paid boatloads of cash to "consult" for the government.
  • by Gannoc ( 210256 ) on Friday February 06, 2004 @07:14PM (#8207735)
    3 years later:

    "HP and Adobe both broadly support the implementation of the Protect Our Economy act, which requires manufacturers and software developers to implement Anti Counterfeiting measures."

    Bye bye free software to compete with Adobe and people who don't want to pay for HP patents.
  • by InfiniteWisdom ( 530090 ) on Friday February 06, 2004 @07:22PM (#8207804) Homepage
    1. All the Slashdotters complaining about "crippled printers" or "having their images reduced to crap"... not one of you noticed this before. I challenge you to find one non-currency image that is printed out broken...

    2. The US Government: Adding a bit of Peach to the new $20, eh? How about this... a thin VISIBLE foil strip... or some silver or other metallic print? Lets see anyone try print THAT with a CMYK printer. Every non-US currency note I've seen has that.

    Fluoroscent markings, watermarks, chemically sensitive paper and security threads and all are fine... except that most of us don't carry around UV lights or hold every bill we receive to the light.

    Counterfeiters aren't going to take a wad of freshly printed bills and go deposit them in the bank! They're going to go to your local McDonalds, supermarket or whatever. All you need to do is go buy a few dollars worth of stuff, hand over a $20 and pocket the nice legit currency you get in return.

  • by ChaosDiscord ( 4913 ) on Friday February 06, 2004 @08:02PM (#8208124) Homepage Journal
    The core problem is that we're increasingly seeing businesses attempt to control what we do with products we own. Why are my printer, my graphics software, and my DVD player acting as little police officers? They aren't even terribly good police officers, they occasionally stop perfectly legal behavior. This crap is gradually sneaking into our society, because 99% of people don't run into the problems they don't see any problem at all. Slowly running into the problem becomes viewed as a sign of guilt; you've been charged by the hardware and found guilty in the court of public opinion. Futhermore this restricted functionality is more expensive than not having the restrictions. The currency detecting drivers or DVD lockout features weren't free to develop and include. We're being asked to pay for less functional equipment. That in the case of currency duplication you have the government leaning on suppliers to make their products less functional makes it all the worse.

    No, these aren't free speech issues in general. (This particular situation might be; despite HP's warm and fuzzy claims I suspect that the government strongly encouraged them.) There is no law against this behavior. But it's unethical (not that that bothers most large businesses). As citizens we should stand up and demand that companies actually try to serve their customers first.

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it." - Bert Lantz

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