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Hardware

Shrinking the PC is a Zen Thing 273

Posted by CmdrTaco from the see-it's-funny-laugh dept.
TheRaindog writes "Tech Report has one of the first reviews of Shuttle's new "Zen" small form factor system, which is almost 20% smaller than current XPCs. The Zen uses a passively-cooled external power supply and variable speed cooling fan to keep the system's noise levels and footprint to a minimum. With support for the latest Pentium 4 processors and ATI's Radeon 9100 IGP chipset, performance isn't too shabby, either."
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Shrinking the PC is a Zen Thing More

Shrinking the PC is a Zen Thing

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  • Cooling? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by BoldAC ( 735721 ) on Tuesday January 20, 2004 @09:32AM (#8031467)
    Do these systems automatically trottle down the CPU as well to decrease system heat?

    • Re:Cooling? (Score:3, Informative)

      by -tji ( 139690 )
      You mean like the "Cool 'n Quiet" feature of the Athlon 64, where it slows down when not under load?

      The Apple G5's do this, as well as most mobile CPU's. The VIA C3's and Transmeta CPU's also can do this.

      I don't think the P4's have this capability. They will slow the system down when it reaches a temperature threshhold, to keep it from frying itself. Is that what you were referring to?

      Hopefully Intel will catch up on this with their next processor release. It's a great feature for home servers, which

  • Is that a PC in your pocket ... (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    or you just happy to see me

  • Apple? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by BoldAC ( 735721 ) on Tuesday January 20, 2004 @09:35AM (#8031489)
    Apple fans may fall in love with the cube on sight.

    Although I am not a fan of using apple systems, apple has really changed the way computer manufacturers design computer systems.

    This cube looks like something a cheap apple cousin might design. :)

    AC

    • Re:Apple? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by the_2nd_coming ( 444906 ) on Tuesday January 20, 2004 @09:39AM (#8031547) Homepage
      what is funnny is that this dude thinks looks are all that matter.

      OS X is the reason I use Apple computers.

      • Re:Apple? (Score:4, Interesting)

        by splattertrousers ( 35245 ) on Tuesday January 20, 2004 @10:46AM (#8032286) Homepage
        Apple fans may fall in love with the cube on sight. Although I am not a fan of using apple systems, apple has really changed the way computer manufacturers design computer systems. This cube looks like something a cheap apple cousin might design. :)
        what is funnny is that this dude thinks looks are all that matter.

        Uh, the article said that Apple users would like the way it looks. This guy was saying that Apple users would realize that this thing looks like crap.

      • Re:Apple? (Score:2, Interesting)

        by oneiron ( 716313 )
        what is funnny is that this dude thinks looks are all that matter.

        I really don't think that was the point he was trying to get across, at all. I don't think he was even implying that, actually.

        A lot of Apple users seem to take offense every time someone mentions their beloved brand name in a PC context. Clearly this author was trying to illustrate a very simple point about the Zen aesthetics and their derivitive nature. Look at it this way... You might not fall in love with a computer purely because

    • Re:Apple? (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Dak_x ( 632526 )
      At least the Apple cubes had the power supply on the inside! I hate computers with an external PSU. They all look so pretty in the pictures cause none of them show the power brick! The previous shuttle design was a bit larger (the ST62K is 17% smaller than Shuttle's current XPC systems) but it had an internal PSU!

      • Re:Apple? (Score:3, Insightful)

        by squaretorus ( 459130 )
        I hate computers with an external PSU.

        I dont mind it - so long as the lead to the power supply is long enough that I can tuck the power brick away under my desk, behind my speakers or whatever.

        Theres nothing worse than having to have the thing ON your desk as I've had a few times in the past with anything from a scanner or printer to the main CPU.

      • Re:Apple? (Score:5, Informative)

        by jrockway ( 229604 ) <jon-nospam@jrock.us> on Tuesday January 20, 2004 @09:56AM (#8031722) Homepage Journal
        Umm, no they didn't. Remember that big white thing you had to plug into the wall and the cube? That was the power supply.

      • External Power Supply makes sense (Score:4, Insightful)

        by 3770 ( 560838 ) on Tuesday January 20, 2004 @10:17AM (#8031958) Homepage
        The power supply generates heat, but it isn't itself very sensitive to that heat.

        If you move the power supply outside of your computer case you will need less cooling for your CPU and grafx card. Or with the same amount of cooling you'll have some headroom to overclock.

        And the power supply itself does not need to be cooled.

      • Re:Apple? (Score:4, Insightful)

        by Jerf ( 17166 ) on Tuesday January 20, 2004 @10:18AM (#8031974) Journal
        The power supply will be a big source of heat. Moving it out means keeping the heat out, means no need to run the fan to disippate it.

        Don't expect small, quiet computers with integrated power supplies anytime soon, unless it can run on much less power then it does now.

    • Re:Apple? (Score:3, Interesting)

      by jest3r ( 458429 )
      Apple has been moving away from clear plastic pearlescent white and towards brushed steel / aluminum. The plastic looks 'cheap' and has been imitated to death.

      Plus that cube has a spot for a Floppy drive ... Apple users havn't used floppy drives for years.

      This cube looks like something a cheap apple cousin might design. :) agreed.

    • Apples and Shuttles are very different machines and it is unfair to compare them. Apple are selling a complete computer and OS that works out of the box to people who are never going to open that computer up. With the compact Apples (iMac, G4 cube) there would be no point in any case as they are basically unexpandable.

      Shuttle sell barebones systems to enthusiasts which you have to open up to add your own CPU, RAM, hard drive, floppy drive, and optical drive, never mind the OS. Compared to an iMac or G4 cu

      • Competiton... (Score:3, Interesting)

        by poptones ( 653660 )
        Shuttle (and others) sell reasonably affordable systems which SOMEONE has to open up to install drives, cpus, and peripherals.

        Apple sells systems which no one has to open up, but which also preclude any meaningful competition. If I want a preconfigured shuttle system I can order one of my choosing from any of a thousand dealers, and lots of competition means I get a good value. It also means there are lots of independant dealers who have jobs trying to compete for my dollars instead of no jobs and collecti

  • Shuttle Innovates (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 20, 2004 @09:36AM (#8031498)
    Shuttle once again raises the bar. They are one of the few companies out there doing something intresting with bland PC architecture. I still love my old SS50, now may be the time to pick up my next Shuttle.

  • Well,... (Score:5, Funny)

    by gertsenl ( 719370 ) on Tuesday January 20, 2004 @09:37AM (#8031511)
    The thing kinda looks an iPod, but I still get dirty looks walking around with it, singing American Pie. :(

    Keep working on those form factors, boys!

  • New?? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by BJH ( 11355 ) on Tuesday January 20, 2004 @09:38AM (#8031519)

    This thing looks almost identical to the Soldam Polo series [soldam.co.jp], the first of which came out around two years ago.

    So what's new about this?

  • Power connector (Score:3, Interesting)

    by vpscolo ( 737900 ) on Tuesday January 20, 2004 @09:38AM (#8031527) Homepage
    Looking at those pictures of the back the connector seems to be similar to an ATX mb socket. Is that an American thing, rather than the UK kettle lead or is it something propiatory?

    Rus

  • Market for Small Form Factor (Score:5, Insightful)

    by 4of12 ( 97621 ) on Tuesday January 20, 2004 @09:38AM (#8031535) Homepage Journal

    I really welcome new small form factor computers like this one from Shuttle.

    As much as I like computers, I dislike

    1. space they take up
    2. rats nest of cables in the back (like Brazil)
    3. fan noise
    A laptop solves these problems, but at the sacrifice of a lousier keyboard and mouse interface.

    The $300 price definitely helps market a machine, too, where used computers are cheap.

    • > A laptop solves these problems, but at the sacrifice of a lousier keyboard and mouse interface.

      The keyboard on my old Thinkpad 600E is better than almost every desktop keyboard I've worked on. Unfortunately most of the newer Thinkpad keyboards are not as good (according to reviews the T40/T41 are pretty nice though). The mouse will be a non-issue in the future when (if?) Bluetooth replaces the current separate receivers for wireless mice. Still, I prefer a good trackpoint so I never have to take my ha
    • "$300 price"

      Don't forget you need to buy the processor, RAM, and harddrive(s) (plus mouse, keyboard, etc), which add to the toal cost. Shuttle does offer some bundled stuff. I recently bought a Shuttle SB61G2R [shuttle.com] that I've been very pleased with, and it came with a DVD-ROM, memory card reader, wireless built-in, and even a shoulder bag to tote it around. It runs pretty quiet, although not silent, and I get a lot of compliments about the look of it.

      Although my system has the same footprint as a (mini-)tower

    • How about the opposite? (Score:4, Interesting)

      by gosand ( 234100 ) on Tuesday January 20, 2004 @12:01PM (#8033097)
      I really welcome new small form factor computers like this one from Shuttle.

      As much as I like computers, I dislike
      1. space they take up
      2. rats nest of cables in the back (like Brazil)
      3. fan noise
      A laptop solves these problems, but at the sacrifice of a lousier keyboard and mouse interface.

      The $300 price definitely helps market a machine, too, where used computers are cheap.

      This is somewhat interesting, since this weekend I went the *opposite* route. I took an old Compaq Proliant server that they were throwing away at work, gutted it, and transplated my PC guts into it. I was looking to solve your #2 and #3, #1 isn't that big of a deal for me.

      First off, what I took out - a working dual P133 motherboard. 4 4.3 GB SCSI drives, backplane, controller, etc. Dual 530W PS (DAMN big). All of it was working too. I put in the guts of my Linux machine, which is a Duron 1.13 (w/Zalman copper flower CPU cooler), CDRW, floppy, and 2 IDE HDDs. (which fit nicely on the removable SCSI rack plates), and a 400W Enermax whisper PS. I had to do some minor fabrication and modification, but it all fit. And working inside that case was really nice. No squinting and swearing, trying to get everything to fit inside. It was like building a PC inside a bathroom stall (proper analogy for a Compaq, with their damn special slider rails for drive bays and torx screws everywhere). But it is all pretty cool now. It is a massive machine, about 3 ft tall. The case is steel, so it is solid and quiet. There is plenty of airflow, and it runs cooler than before. And if the feds ever come and confiscate it, they'll probably throw out their back trying to lift it. :-)

      So while small form factor is cool, I think it is verging on the "disposible PC". Where is the "upgradeability" that I have been promised for years and years? I bought tons of PC hardware that was built to be "upgradeable", but every time I come to that point where I think about upgrading, I end up either getting stuff off of eBay, or buying a whole new system. From AT to ATX, from socket processor, to slot, back to socket. SIMM, DIMM, SDRAM, DDR, etc. Unless you upgrade every 2 years, you are probably going to be SOL, at least buying anything new. I highly doubt that you'll be able to upgrade any of these micro systems.

  • What's the advantage here? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Amiga Lover ( 708890 ) on Tuesday January 20, 2004 @09:40AM (#8031549)
    Really what's the advantage here? You're giving up functionality and extra cash to pay for one of these things, and only gaining the clutter of an external PSU, while running parts hotter and less reliably than in a correctly designed case, and there are hundreds of them out there.

    In essence it's making a PC worse, and paying more for the privilege, all for only one difference exteriorally which is the height of the box, as shuttles are every bit as wide as a normal PC and almost as long front to back. When all it's going to do is get books and other desk things stacked on top of it then there's not really any advantage?
    • You may not see the advantage, but for someone who wants a small, fast, stylish machine that won't be constantly upgraded for a large Internet cafe, a kiosk, an office, etc etc etc may see a huge advantage. My father, for example, wants to buy an SN85G4 in two years, when 64bit computing has fully established itself; my sister already has an SN45G, and has had it for nearly a year now.

      Frankly, I'm amazed at the machines that Shuttle is churning out these days; they're really onto something, and I have a fe

    • Re:What's the advantage here? (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Smallpond ( 221300 ) on Tuesday January 20, 2004 @09:56AM (#8031715) Homepage Journal
      Take a look at the cooler. The shuttle has a much better story on cooling than using a separate CPU fan. The Shuttle is quieter and cooler than the desktop it replaced, including CPU temp. PCs haven't changed the cooling design since the original IBM which was around 60W, IIRC. Its long overdue.

      I just got a Shuttle (slightly larger, with internal power). There's room on my desk now for my papers and a cat. I'm hoping that my monitor dies soon so I can get a flat screen.

      • "Take a look at the cooler. The shuttle has a much better story on cooling than using a separate CPU fan. The Shuttle is quieter and cooler than the desktop it replaced, including CPU temp. PCs haven't changed the cooling design since the original IBM which was around 60W, IIRC. Its long overdue."

        Because there is just NO WAY to get somthing like a heat pipe [siliconacoustics.com] into a larger case. Some strange feild of physics makes them only work in small non upgradable systems.

        • Thanks for demonstrating my point. From the page that you linked to:

          "If adequate case cooling is not provided then the NCU-1000 may not be sufficient to cool systems that will operate under continuous full load conditions"

          Yeah, thats a great improvement, there. The shuttle pipes the heat to the radiator which is in front of the only fan. Very elegant design.


    • Really what's the advantage here? You're giving up functionality and extra cash to pay for one of these things, and only gaining the clutter of an external PSU, while running parts hotter and less reliably than in a correctly designed case, and there are hundreds of them out there.

      Noise. Noise. Noise. I am so sick and tired of computers that sound like vacuum cleaners. Hell it seems that no one can even design a notebook that runs silently.

  • Zen eh? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by BWJones ( 18351 ) * on Tuesday January 20, 2004 @09:40AM (#8031551) Homepage Journal
    Well, they got the dimensions down to around the Apple Cube's size, but it is still lacking in aesthetics. For instance, one could never put this thing on your desk with its back facing to someone else if you place any value on style. I mean check this [techreport.com] out. The Apple cube had a completely smooth appearance with connections to the display coming discretely out of the underside of the case. Oh, and it is silent. Cooling a P4 chip is going to require some fans on this baby, but I guess its all about tradeoffs. For a PC case though, this is not that bad for small form factors.

  • Obligatory Zen joke (Score:5, Funny)

    by savagedome ( 742194 ) on Tuesday January 20, 2004 @09:40AM (#8031557)
    Q: How many Zen buddhists does it take to change a light bulb?
    A: Tree falling in the forest

  • Zen thing? (Score:2, Funny)

    by DreadSpoon ( 653424 )
    Shrink by not shrinking? ;-)

    These systems don't look bad for business or casual use, and probably also good enough for development use, but the gamer in me likes the XPC systems a lot better.

  • Pfft (Score:4, Funny)

    by Rosco P. Coltrane ( 209368 ) on Tuesday January 20, 2004 @09:42AM (#8031573)
    Shuttle's new "Zen" small form factor system, which is almost 20% smaller than current XPCs

    I beat them all as far as size is concerned : my PC has no case, and therefore is -100% of the size of a standard beige box PC, since it has the inside out. How about a little of that?
  • I have been looking at one of these for a while. I make up dream configurations using the Shuttle Barebones system and then price out the components from Overclockers or TekHeads.

    They seem to solve a lot of problems that conventional systems are plagued with. Cooling a large box, noise generated by the cooling systems, space used by the server sitting under your desk. I was originally looking at rack mount systems but these Small Form Factor PC's have the added advantage of portability. Perfect for LAN Par
    • Yup. One of my new shuttle systems was running Linux. I dropped the 2 hard drives into the new box along with a CDRW drive and *boom* Instant upgrade. If you can survive without a floppy drive (I know you can!) and get yourself a nice DVD/CD RW combo drive, then you'll probably like the Shuttle.

  • New Girls... (Score:2, Informative)

    by BoldAC ( 735721 )
    If you want to bring out your system with a bang... you better get some better looking models than this one.

    Jenny's Picture [techreport.com]

    AC
    • I know some people don't find asians attractive (I, for one, do), but what's wrong with that model?

      This is the second "Look at that dog-ugly ch1x0r" thread I've gotten mixed up in this week... what ever happened to the sensitive, non-judgemental geek? I mean c'mon... we all tout our own inner beauty, because not all of us are Tom Cruise... I'm sure as hell not... but what happened to practicing what we preach?

      I see nothing unattractive there.

  • Nice, but no AGP (Score:2, Informative)

    by 91degrees ( 207121 )
    I could really do with a small PC with a decent graphics card. Considering this has perfectly adequate network, sound and usb, I don't really have a need for a PCI slot for a while.

    I guess it's the next size up for me.
  • 1. ...a Beowulf cluster of these!
    2. ...shall call him mini-me!
    3. ...it's not the size, it's how you use it!
    4. ...in Soviet Russia, PC shrinks YOU!
    5. ...WORRIED ABOUT SIZE?!?! NEW P*I*L*L*S SHRINK YOUR PC!!!!

  • Passive water cooling. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by G4from128k ( 686170 ) on Tuesday January 20, 2004 @09:49AM (#8031652)
    Why not kill two birds with one stone (or keep two beatsies alive with one hack). Perhaps you have an ultracompact PC that needs cooling and a nice expansive fish tank that needs warming. So you build a sealed PC module that sits in the tank and makes both the fish and the CPU happy. A sealed cable runs from the tank to a breakout box. A passive convective heatsink in water could easily disappate the heat much more effectively than can air.

    The rule for tank heaters is 4 W/gal, so a 200 W PC is perfect for warming a 50 gallon tank. A temperature sensor in the water would control the clock-speed -- underclocking if the fish got too hot. An occasional cleaning would keep algae from ruining the heat transfer coefficient.

    • Re:Passive water cooling. (Score:4, Informative)

      by The One KEA ( 707661 ) on Tuesday January 20, 2004 @09:55AM (#8031714) Journal
      Someone has actually done this - the January 2004 issue of Maximum PC showed a woman who had modded a computer and a fishtank together into a single unit. It was really quite cool.
      • She didn't have the fish water running through the CPU cooler. I was quite disappointed. She was concerned about detritus in the fish water clogging the water cooling, but a canister filter [drsfostersmith.com] could take care of that and also serve as the pump.

        You'd need a pretty big tank to use up a PCs heat load. Tank heaters might be specified at 4W/gallon but they are on thermostats & don't run continously in heated houses. A radiator and temperature controlled fan after the CPU to keep the water back to the tank
    • ...underclocking if the fish got too hot.

      I can just hear it now. Damn! My processor speed just tanked! You can give credit for that finale to my fish!
    • How about "near the tank" instead. I don't want to get wet hands every time I change the CD.

      Your way would be fantastic for noise reduction though, I'll give you that much.
  • I think SFF's are great for the work environment as well as home users who dont upgrade etc. As for PC enthusiasts, the space is too limited to do upgrades easily. Also add in the fact most have integrated graphics means updating your machine into a gaming rig probably wont happen.

  • Half the height of the 5.25" bay? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Why are there no 1/4 height 5.25" bay things on the market? Shouldn't be any problems making CD/DVD drives half the height of what they are today. Just look at portable CD players.
  • Look at Nano ITX [mini-itx.com]. Admitally only 1Ghz Via C3 but cool none the less
    Rus

  • Finally! (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Misch ( 158807 ) on Tuesday January 20, 2004 @10:02AM (#8031777) Homepage
    Rear-mounted digital S/PDIF input and output ports (Tos-Link)

    On the 2 shuttles I have (SS51G [shuttle.com], SN41G2 [shuttle.com])the digital output ports have been front-mounted. Having it in the back is nice because you're not running the cord behind the computer.

    One of the downsides of this seems to be that there's no AGP port. This is where the size savings comes in for ths aprticukar model. Both of my shuttles have on-baord graphics, but also have an AGP slot that I could get better performance from.

    *grr* No removable drive cage either. Both of my shuttles have a removable drive cage. It made setting the machines up so much easier.

    The external power supply for this unit will also make setup easier.

    All told, I do my shuttles. They're nice systems, and so much quieter than the systems they replaced. Even nicer was full support forom linux. I dropped my old drives into the new system, and they were good to go.

  • External power supply and no AGP! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by jpatokal ( 96361 ) * on Tuesday January 20, 2004 @10:02AM (#8031780) Homepage
    It's right there in the story writeup and the article too, but let's recap since nobody reads the articles anyway:

    For mainstream markets and applications that don't require discrete AGP graphics, Shuttle has whipped up a smaller, quieter "Zen" XPC ST62K system. By stripping the cube of its AGP slot and using a passively-cooled external power supply...

    And this for 20% off the length (not height, not width) of the case. Whoop-ti-doo -- I haven't had an external power supply on my computer since I threw away my C-64. I'm sorry, but this hardly qualifies as innovation...

    ...and besides, I'm perfectly happy with my Creative SLiX [slixpc.com] as is. (The thing could be a little quieter though.)

    Cheers,
    -j.

    • First:
      Whoop-ti-doo -- I haven't had an external power supply on my computer since I threw away my C-64. I'm sorry, but this hardly qualifies as innovation...

      Then:
      I'm perfectly happy with my Creative SLiX as is. (The thing could be a little quieter though.)

      Consider reconciling those two statements. This new product will be quieter because they won't need to cool the power supply or the graphics card. The tradeoff is graphics performance.
  • if they had allowed for a decent video card.
    nice small form factor
    pretty funtional
    light (i assume, site is /.ed)

    but restricted to a Radeon 9100 IGP... that's just no good.

  • /.ed (Score:4, Funny)

    by DaveOf9thKey ( 599178 ) on Tuesday January 20, 2004 @10:13AM (#8031912) Homepage Journal
    Did they used one of these cubes as the web server?

  • I've never understood... (Score:2, Interesting)

    by blorg ( 726186 )
    why they didn't ditch the internal PSU sooner. Besides the size benefits to the box itself, you're moving a pretty hot component out of the box, making it easier to cool, and quieter. As a laptop user, I'm used to the brick, and it doesn't bother me.

    I've got a Shuttle XPC as a monitor-less HTPC/home server. The Shuttle fulfils a role that neither a standard desktop or laptop could - a small, quiet bookshelf machine with 600gb of storage, TV card, a reasonably speedy processor and a DVD+-R drive - using st

  • Zen? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by joethebastard ( 262758 ) on Tuesday January 20, 2004 @10:15AM (#8031940)
    I hate to come off sounding like a troll, but what does this thing have to do with Zen?

    If I started a line of "Jesus" computers, people would throw a hissy fit, but we slap other people's religions on everything from herbal tea to mp3 players. Granted, a good Buddhist shouldn't care about this, but I think it would be classy if we showed a tad more respect for other cultures than by naming our mediocre product after their religion.

    Again, I apologize for the way this sounds... just wanted to get that off my chest! Thanks fellas!

    • Re:Zen? (Score:4, Informative)

      by CrankyFool ( 680025 ) on Tuesday January 20, 2004 @10:32AM (#8032136)
      Glad you got it off your chest.

      Would this be a bad time to mention Shuttle's based in Taiwan? Or that official estimates [state.gov] are that about 24% of Taiwanese are Buddhists?

      • Not really. But you have to admit that over all that it might could be seen as less respectful for a Taiwanese company to name a Computer Zen than for a western company. Or you could look at it this way. As far as I have seen no Buddist has gotten bent over the name so far if they are not offended why should I be.

    • Re:Zen? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by LWATCDR ( 28044 )
      Actually I would bet that non-christians would tend to bet just as bent over a "Jesus" line of computers as a Christian would. "How dare they try to force there religion on me." Frankly as a Christain I have to say that I would bet that it is very hard to "offend" God. I would think that most offensive actions seem as clever and or as insulting to God as a two year old coming up to an adult and saying "You are a poopy head". Relax I think God or if you prefure Buddia can deal with it just fine :)
    • Yawn, another clueless Politically correct hippie.

      Oracle - Make DB software

      Prophet - Brand Of video card

      Heretic - Video Game

      Priest - Name of a big stick to club fish to death

      Cruscader - Military Weapon

      Inquisition - Video Game

      Paladin - Too may instances to name.

      I bet your same type of person to claim that there would be outrage if they named sports teams after white people. Even though there are teams like the fighting Irish, Vikings, Bucaneers, Cowboys, Rough Riders, Vandals, Pirates, Sooners and

  • Oh My God.... (Score:3, Funny)

    by donnacha ( 161610 ) on Tuesday January 20, 2004 @10:49AM (#8032311) Homepage

    ... who is that horrendous chick on the concluding page of the review? [techreport.com]

    Bleeeuuuuuurrgh, makes me want to wash my mouth out with cpu coolant paste.

  • I like the a ones with a handle [ign.com].

    I don't care that I'm hardly ever gonna move it. I wanna handle!

  • Pros and Cons of the Design (Score:4, Interesting)

    by base_chakra ( 230686 ) on Tuesday January 20, 2004 @11:53AM (#8033019)
    I've built and used three Shuttle XPCs, but I have not yet worked with the Zen model. At this point I must say that I'm disillusioned with the XPCs in general, and I can only hope that the Zen corrects the problems of previous models.

    Due to the cramped interior design, physically accessing most internal components requires removing a number of other parts first. The drive cage in the SK41G actually has a bumper on the side because there's not enough space between the PCI slot and drive cage! The bumper bends my sound card to one side to keep it from making contact with the cage. :( The drive cage itself is cheaply made and susceptible to vibrational noise; with a 7200rpm+ drive and a fast optical drive, this easily becomes a problem.

    Externalizing the PSU is a laudable move. I've had considerable problems with XPCs overheating, and two of the XPCs I've worked with had bad PSU fans: one made a crackling noise, and the other was totally dead (out of the box). Why not just modularize the thing even further and externalize the drive cage as well?

    The overheating problem is especially disappointing considering that, in my experience, the variable-rate SmartFans don't react quickly/intelligently enough to prevent heat-related system hangs. Using a high-performance video card in an XPC exacerbates this problem, which has forced me to run the fans on the highest setting at all times (yes, the CPU is burned-in, and I'm using a non-electrically-conductive thermal grease).

    After three systems and two RMAs, I finally decided that Shuttle XPCs aren't for me.
  • It has never made sense to me that most desktops use internal power supplies. Back in 1984, Convergent Technologies (a defunct hardware company, not the current ISP) was selling systems with external power supplies. These didn't have any fancy cooling system either -- they were just low-power jobs, like a laptop PS. If you needed more power than one unit provided, you plugged in more units as required. The system unit was itself modular, so plugs were never an issue.

    Then the PC [old-computers.com] and AT [old-computers.com] came along, defining

  • I have two SFF computers now, one is a Shuttle and the other is something else, but similar. Both have space for a floppy drive, but I haven't had one for several years now. Why do they continue to include space for them?

    Does anyone have a drive that fits into 3.5" slots? Or is this completely worthless like I think it is?

  • I own an XPC right now, actually... (Score:4, Informative)

    by Dragoon412 ( 648209 ) on Tuesday January 20, 2004 @12:28PM (#8033421)
    ...and while I'm looking at building a new box in the next few months, one option I've ruled out are these small form factor PCs.

    I built my SFF system about a year and a half ago. It's a Shuttle SS51G; the first XPC they offered with an AGP slot. At the time, it seemed like a great idea: it was small, quiet, attractive, and wasn't hideously expensive, and it would allow me to have plenty of power to run Dark Age of Camelot (which was the only game I played at the time). This was especially true in light of the fact that the whole reason I was building a new PC was because my incredibly large, hot, and noisy beige box AMD system had decided to destroy itself after AMD's 'recommended' fansink died only 6 months after being installed.

    The problems I've had with heat in my Shuttle, however, have been even more irritating. Those, coupled with some of the other minor annoyances from the XPC line (which I'd assume are really problems of all SFF systems) have turned me away from them.

    First and foremost, I've had major heating issues. The review sites, like Ars and [H] were right when they said that Shuttle's ICE cooling system (a heatpipe, really) was quiet and kept the processor running reasonably cool. The problem is that I automatically assumed that meant that the case itself had adequate cooling, and quite honestly, it doesn't.

    My first heat-related issue was with my video card; a Radeon 8500. The AGP slot in Shuttle's cases is literally right next to the case wall. I honestly can't imagine there's more than a 1/4 of an inch between the case and the fan on my Radeon 8500, which means the thing can barely breathe. I've had to underclock it to maintain stability.

    Second, I had issues with the RAM causing heat build-up, too. The system defaults to a speed of DDR200, even though the mainboard supposedly supports up to DDR333. I have a pair 512 MB DDR266 sticks from Crucial; both identical. When I changed the multiplier to force them to run at DDR266, I noticed I would get more crashes and lockups, and I wasn't even running an aggressive timing configuration. Ultimately, I had to back my RAM down to DDR200.

    The worst part about the heat-related issues is that there's really nothing to do about it. There's no room for expansion in the case; it's not like you can just stick another fan in there. There's barely any room for the components that're already in the case.

    Other minor annoyances I've come across are the excessively spartan BIOS, and complete inability to do any work inside the case without disassembling the whole damned thing.

    Don't get me wrong, Shuttle doesn't make a bad product. My XPC has great construction quality, and was rather reasonably priced. But despite their claims that these systems offer gaming-quality performance, they really don't. And they're barely any more upgradeable than a laptop.

    I'd recommend one to anyone who wants a good web browser or maybe to put together a media box or some sort of small server, but for any performance-intensive, stay away.
  • I evaluated a white cube for a customer of mine within the past 2 weeks. I ended up going with a black one simply because other than the apple monitors, I cannot find any white (not beige) matching lcd's.

  • Don't miss the Zen babe (Score:4, Funny)

    by mccrew ( 62494 ) on Tuesday January 20, 2004 @12:51PM (#8033674)
    For the benefit of those who have not read the F. article, don't miss the "Zen babe" [techreport.com] on the Conclusions page. I'll leave the review of that part up to you folks. :)
  • I've been wondering why nobody's yet making a nice 2 (or 3) part case design, where I put CD/DVD-Rom drives into a small desktop case which also has all those "front end" connectors (ie USB, firewire, media slots) and a reset button and power on/off buttons, and then put the rest of the gubbins into a small box to sit under the desk (or in a cupboard etc.) so you can optimise the airflow and cooling for the CPU. I suppose AGP and PCI slots would go in the "not-seen" box, and the hard disks could go in eithe
  • Go-Go boots have ALWAYS been sexy.

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