Microsoft Taking Over the BIOS 989
dtjohnson writes "According to this story,
Microsoft has entered into an agreement with BIOS maker Phoenix
Technologies to integrate the BIOS with Windows. This has the
potential to turn PCs into Windows-only machines and also could result
in widespread incorporation of Digital Rights Management (DRM)
technology into new PCs. It looks like Microsoft is beginning to
flex their marketplace monopoly muscles again, after taking a couple of
years off."
Thank goodness for LinuxBIOS (Score:5, Interesting)
Except (Score:1, Interesting)
I think this is outstanding. (Score:3, Interesting)
It's only a matter of time before Microsoft's superior technology inovators develop a compression algorythm that will allow them to stuff all of Windows XP/2003 into the BIOS chip. Then they will really have a lock on the PC industry.
Remove the chip (Score:2, Interesting)
If Apple does this, it is good (Score:1, Interesting)
There's be hell to pay if M$ forced you to buy M$ hardware in order to run its software. But Apple can do it, but why not, their cases look so cool.
Here we go (Score:2, Interesting)
They'll tell us they are doing it for our own good and their motto will be 'The Internet is too important for amateurs'
[A]bort [R]etry [F]ail (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:JUST in the sake of fairness... (Score:5, Interesting)
Some thoughts... (Score:5, Interesting)
Why is a protection against "unauthorized devices" suddenly necessary on BIOS-level? Has anyone even been victim of a device that should really have been "unauthorized" (whatever that means in this case) that has been connected to a PC? It sounds like they're talking about hardware, and that's what's puzzling me. Are Microsoft telling us that future devices might be set as "unauthorized" because they don't fulfill Microsoft's demands and standards for an authorized device, or what?
Are Microsoft's customers saying "we should be able to protect ourself against unauthorized hardware" (I'm not hearing anyone), or are Microsoft just trying to shove a new feature down their throats because they need it for their plans?
"Phoenix's Core System Software (CSS) is a next-generation BIOS with a more sophisticated integration of operating system and hardware, for example making it easier for system administrators to remotely monitor the hardware configurations of their systems."
As with all computer software, complexity increases the chance of bugs and often also security exploits. How can Microsoft and Phoenix assure these "enhancements" to the BIOS don't do this? They can't? Well, then we might have an interesting future with really messy exploits ahead (with potential for viruses to gain direct hardware access and control), and also BIOS crashes due to the added complexity.
Re:Could you explain? (Score:5, Interesting)
If Microsoft uses it to let companies build "Windows only" PCs or to enforce their form of DRM, then I suspect most I.T. managers and staff will realize it's *NOT* a good thing.
(Even if I work for a company that runs all Windows products on the desktop today, that doesn't mean I'd prefer products that don't let me have any other alternatives.) As computers age, they tend to become good candidates for alternate OS's - even in environments using strictly Windows on the user desktops. (If you're not going to elminiate your current crop of dated Pentium 1 and 2 systems, for example, they still make good Linux web servers or print servers. They also make good pseudo thin clients running the Citrix ICA connector. (You can still do that even under plain old MS-DOS, with some limitations, and serve Windows 2000 or XP desktops to an old 486.)
Maybe it's time to ditch the BIOS now and move to. (Score:1, Interesting)
New MS BIOS source code leaked! (Score:5, Interesting)
All kidding aside... I write BIOS code for a living, and this scares the crap out of me. What Microsoft wants is to basically eliminate the BIOS, except for the jump to the OS code (the "int 19" above). Windows already does just about everything that we do in the BIOS, like PCI device enumeration, etc...
No doubt, this would make Microsoft's life a lot more simple, but I think it would give them too much control -- way too much. DRM would just be the start of it.
I wonder what the EFI proponents (Intel) think about this deal...
Re:Same as what Apple does (Score:5, Interesting)
Maybe this is just for their own products (Score:2, Interesting)
Come on, guys.. (Score:3, Interesting)
Come on, guys.. this is Slashdot! Are you forgetting that a very large pool of very bright individuals read this forum? Phoenix will release the specs for this new BIOS, the kernel hackers will develop a patch to support it, and before you know it, the same benefits that Windows O/Ss gain from it will be found in Linux as well. Minus the DRM, of course.. although I wouldn't be surprised to see that as a patch either.
If MS can benefit from this, so can Linux. The only way that wouldn't be true is if the specs are not public, or are licensed under a RAND license that precludes OSS participation and nobody wants to foot the bill on our behalf. Or if Phoenix tries a DMCA ploy of some sort. I can't picture them charging a license fee for using it when they can more easily enforce an outright fee for the supporting MB installation. Even so, I wouldn't be surprised to see it reverse engineered. Look at WinModems and their rise of functionality under Linux..
---
er.. um.. excuse me. I meant GNU/Linux.
Re:Come on, guys.. (Score:4, Interesting)
Excellent example. Look how long it took Linux to provide even rudimentary support for WinModems. There are still patent issues surrounding WinModem drivers. If even one part of this deal includes patented "technology," Linux will be locked out.
This *is* a dire issue, one that will require intense scrutiny. MS desires complete control of everyone's computing; this is clear both from statements made in the past, and actions leading into the future. If there isn't active and vigorous opposition, they will get everything they want.
At the moment, they are looking at methods of locking Linux out. In the past, they have tried hidden, proprietary software, marketting, and outright lies (which is, I guess, marketting); as this hasn't been too successful, they *will* try to lock Linux out using legal means. (That is, patents.)
Re:Thank goodness for LinuxBIOS (Score:5, Interesting)
Yes.
".for my purposes Windows is completely a throw away OS which I won't even give a second thought about reinstalling if it starts acting up (ala blue screens...etc)"
I don't have the stability problems you problem imagine I'm having. I'm a 3D Artist. My computer has to be stable. It has to run in dual monitor mode. I have to be able to buy hardware from the store and get it up and running quickly. These are not things that Linux cannot do, but it is bonehead simple in Windows to get it all running. I do lots of rendering. I can't afford to lose time on a render. Niether Windows 2000 nor Lightwave has let me down. I don't come back on Monday to find that the render died on Saturday.
"Since I wouldn't run Windows if my games ran under linux, I wouldn't say I want to use Windows...I instead want to play my games and Windows happens to be the only vehicle that will allow me to do that."
Yes, you would say that. However, I have not found that Linux is quite there for me. Though it has become more attractive in recent months. I honestly feel I'll be running on it in 2004 or 2005. I'm not a Windows zealot, but I'm not going to switch to Linux just to flip off Microsoft.
Simple and More Reliable (Score:5, Interesting)
I cant believe in the face of every virus MS has been responsible for spreading or allowing to spread due to crappy code they think a BIOS with MS system calls in it wont be a problem.
I can see the next ms.blaster worm that wipes your bios requireing you to replace the ROM.
Re:Same as what Apple does (Score:5, Interesting)
This was done to forcibly EOL OS 9.2.2
Re:Thank goodness for LinuxBIOS (Score:2, Interesting)
We don't need to run around yelling that the sky is falling for every little thing ms does
What about servers? (Score:2, Interesting)
Of course, none of these companies probably gives a damn if Microsoft maintains control over the desktop.
wont hurt Dell (Score:4, Interesting)
"DRM Free" logo (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:Who do I blame for all this crap? (Score:3, Interesting)
That's why I won't be buying into HDTV anytime soon.
HDTV and the legislation that needlessly forced it onto an uninterested public is the biggest scam in the past 25 years. All of those companies are "advised" our government on HDTV 20 years ago are a bunch of criminals. Of course nobody goes to jail for white-collar crime. Download an MP3 on the other hand...
Re:wont hurt Dell (Score:2, Interesting)
history and Compaq (Score:4, Interesting)
In fact, it was Compaq Ahh ... here's the story [oldcomputers.net]
- The Compaq Portable was the first 100% compatible IBM computer clone. Why make an IBM clone? Because the IBM PC was extremely popular, and taken very seriously by businesses looking for a computer system.
In any case, you would think Bill would remember this [pbs.org]. He was around. Unless he's getting daft.Problem: Compaq couldn't just copy IBM's BIOS to make their new machine guaranteed IBM compatible, this would be illegal, and easily proven by IBM.
Solution: Reverse-engineer IBM's BIOS. Compaq used two sets of programmers, one group who had access to IBM's source code and another who knew nothing about it. The first group closely looked at the original code, and made notes of exactly what it did. The second group took these notes, and wrote their own BIOS that performed exactly the same. After one year and a million dollars, they were successfull. They had a legal BIOS identical in operation to that of the IBM computer.
Re:this is not something to worry about (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:Why the alarmist attitude? (Score:2, Interesting)
There's even something of a precedent for using the BIOS to partition machines into different market segments. I once bought a surplus Alpha motherboard that was really cheap at the time, intending to run Linux or NetBSD on it. When it arrived, I found that it had only the crippled BIOS capable of loading Windows NT, and that it was going to be a complicated kludge to get anything else to run. I found someone in Australia who had paid money for DEC's SDK, necessary to recode the BIOS to run a Freenix, but he wasn't willing to share it. So that $150 motherboard, minus the $100 more I would have had to spend to enable it to run a Freenix, became dead hardware to me. And yes, I looked in DEC's catalogue. Back when the motherboard was 'current' hardware they were selling the same exact motherboard with the bios to run Windows NT for a low price, and with the bios to run Digital UNIX for a HELL of a lot more.
Re:Thank goodness for LinuxBIOS (Score:5, Interesting)
OpenFirmware is absolutely INCREDIBLE, and if more companies were on-board it would get even better. On a Macintosh (O.F.) you just hold 'option' at boot and you get a menu of all bootable drives connected to the machine, be they FireWire, IDE, SCSI, or USB (actually USB is disabled out of sanity). You can get a device list even better than most Operating Systems can provide from OF.
All that has to happen is a small system to give OF a GUI for general-purpose stuff that he BIOS handles now, like editing the time and some options. Also it would be nice to have extension APIs for disk checking and basic kernel argument-passing.
LinuxBIOS isn't what you think it is, it's just a way to bypass the normal BIOS to pull a kernel off the network, it's not structurally capable of 'taking over' because it was designed from the beginning as a 'means to an end' for clustering. It has far LESS functionality than a typical BIOS, and the development lag time makes it infeasible for a mass switchover.
We really need to make sure that the 64-bit motherboard manufacurers start using OpenFirmware, it's the perfect opportunity to facilitate a switch to a more modern and sane BIOS. If Microsoft gets involved we're SURE to see major problems and serous bloat on the board.
RANT... (Score:3, Interesting)
I agree that it did not start there, but it has rapidly become obvious that it now is more about getting all of the money (yours, mine, everyone elses).
Regional encoding does not stop piracy, neither does encrypting DVDs. People just copy them with the encryption entact and they play on your regular DVD player. The "regional" thing is about wanting to control who sells DVD decryption tech along with the players, and about controlling who was allowed to sell players where.
I expect the RIAA wishes they had thought of that one, imagine a studio owned software company recieving fat royalty checks for every CD player sold. As DRM becomes more ubiquitous, expect to see that and other ncorporate market controls coming down the pike.
And you can also expect the studio owned (AOL) and software vendor owned (MSN) attempt dropping non-DRM content from thier networks as well. Corporate censorship for the web, in the name of protecting the artists, writers and musicians. If it's not DRM, it must be copyright infringing!
So Well use encryption accross the network to avoid this.
BUT NO! You must be a terrorist! If you don't have anything to hide, why are you hiding it? Only drug dealers and terrorist need to use encryption if they're not law enforcement, corpoations, and intelligence agents, but that's OK, because they are the GOOD GUYS looking out for your saftey, the ecconomy, and the "American Way of Life". "Patriot Act III", DMCA-II, all brought to you by the Department of Justice, Homeland Security, and Microsoft. Keeping America safe for Americans. (I hope you fit their definition.)
[/RANT]
In all seriousness, if a large company can profit from DRM, or a government can control or monitor a population by use of DRM, by manipulating the markets (and content) in the software, communications, media, film, music, and publishing industries with this, then they will eventually attempt it.
At least in America (and many other countries), the outcome is somewhat dependant on the public's acceptance of this and the perception of a need for it.
We can always hope.
Re:Same as what Apple does (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm sure this is far more open, understandable and practical compaired to anything Microsoft is proposing.
Also with DRM built in I'm sure it's not going to be open since there only security they can offer is obfuscation.
This idea has been tried before. (Score:2, Interesting)
Presenter: "We're going to sell a PC. But we can't really let people do what they want with it. We need to protect it. With a bios! Ya we'll protect it with a bios!"
Bill: "What are we going to call it?"
Presenter: "Well we need a symbol.. that represents not being able to do what you want."
Bill: "X?"
Presenter: "Yes! And another symbol that suggests it already does what you probably need it to do."
Bill: "XBox?"
Reply (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Same as what Apple does (Score:3, Interesting)
Might MS do this horrible thing? Sure. But they've been rumored to do it for years now, in one form or another, and they haven't done it. But Apple has been doing precisely this for years now. It's all in the name of "progress," I know, restricting what you can boot on their new machines. Don't let that stop you from crapping all over MS for finally moving into an area where they can exercise almost 50% of the control that Apple does over a machine. Maybe 60% if you count the mouse.
Re:history and Compaq (Score:5, Interesting)
And thus illegal to reverse engineer?
Yeah, it's like IBM all over again... except that this time the law says that no one could reverse engineer a way out of the monopoly lock-in!
Send 'em an email (Score:2, Interesting)
The lazy can cut and paste the one below and send it to custsupport@phoenix.com
The less lazy might want to change a few words or write their own email.
---
Customer support,
I don't believe your recent deal with microsoft is going to work out
in the interests of your customers.
Microsoft aim to make it harder to use other operating systems on the same
hardware as theirs. They are using their existing monopoly in operating systems to produce a monopoly in BIOS software. As alternative operating systems become more widespread your new BIOS will be less competitive in the marketplace.
This deal will also cause your customers to become suspicious of your motives and less inclined to choose your BIOS where others can be used.
Personally I don't intend to buy motherboards with your BIOS, or recommend that any of the companies I work for do until this deal is cancelled. It is important to me that hardware I buy is general purpose and can run linux or FreeBSD as well as windows.
Regards,
-Your Name-
Re:Trying to remember... (Score:3, Interesting)
No, Microsoft has regularly ignored PR issues WRT to making decisions (at least once it has committed to a decision).
Believe me, the execs at Microsoft (note: not engineers there) care very little about what Slashdot has to say. Slashdot is full of after-the-fact complaining and rumors, and is constantly full of "sky-is-falling" stories. The few that I actually have inside knowledge on have let me realize that Slashdot is a wildly alarmist publication. Generally, people submitting stories have a political agenda, and want to get people upset about something -- and providing misconceptions is an effective way to do something.
Slashdot is fun to read, but it's not a Microsoft leash.
Things where there are *wildly* overblown claims and theories include: United States governmental repression, TCPA, Palladium, most stories on corporate business relationships with either SCO or Microsoft, Gentoo, and Apple products. Articles like these should be treated about the same way you'd treat something from the National Enquirer or the Young Republicans -- with a very, very large block of salt.
Re:Thank goodness for LinuxBIOS (Score:3, Interesting)
Oh yes. The *free* market. Do you ever consider that they may have used anti-competitive means to consolidate their position in the market? Does this not bother you? Are you not concerned that they might be using their size to unfairly trample the opposition?
The previous poster's question wasn't really the one that needs answering. It's not how much power that they have, but how much abuse of that power are you prepared to put up with before deciding to act?