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Wireless Networking Hardware

Bluetooth for Homebrew Robots? 134

Posted by Cliff from the robot-wars-from-your-laptop dept.
MacGod asks: "As an extra-curricular for my university, I am working some other engineers to try and design a RoboSoccer Project (please don't wipe out our server if possible), with the hopes of entering the RoboCup tournament in the near future. We are currently using some low-frequency Abacom RF communication modules, but would like to able to go to BlueTooth if possible. However, I have found it nearly impossible to locate any suitable BlueTooth modules. We'd really like something that could be put onto a breadboard, and that would come with sufficiently detailed instructions that we'd be able to implement it without being BlueTooth experts. Any suggestion on homebrew BlueTooth solutions, Slashdot?"
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Bluetooth for Homebrew Robots? More

Bluetooth for Homebrew Robots?

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    • Re:Bluetooth modules for use with mobile robots (Score:5, Interesting)

      by deglr6328 ( 150198 ) on Friday September 26, 2003 @08:12PM (#7069131)
      Most of the links on that page seem to be usb bluetooh or bare modules. If you're looking for turnkey RS-232 bluetooth units (as I was for a project at work), may I highly disrecommend Free2Move's serial port plug [free2move.se]. I've been trying to get them to work for weeks and you'd think for nearly $400 for the pair they would at least answer ONE of my emails or pick up the phone for their "tech support" line. STAY AWAY!! I do know what you mean about these things being rare and rediculously expensive though. Maybe I'll try Brainboxes serial converter [brainboxes.com] next.
      • I've put in a request with my boss to get a Free2Move RS232 converter to experiment with. Theyre a little cheaper than the BrainBoxes converters.

        Aside from the cost of the BrainBoxes stuff, I've been fairly satisfied with the performance. The plan is to start selling/recommending the BrainBoxes stuff to our customers (unless of course a cheaper alternative is found).

        Can you comment any more about the difficulties you are having with Free2Move?
        moc.oohay_@_12341ekim
    • Have you seen this thing? Its board mountable. Most likely requires real hacker skillz.

      http://www.circuitcellar.com/PSOC2002/winners/h9 .h tm

      I can email you offlist, with my bluetooth links and research if you are interested. My buds and I are building a robotic society for our grad thesis. BT is high on our list of prefs for comm. between the robots.

  • usenet (Score:4, Informative)

    by RobertTaylor ( 444958 ) <roberttaylor1234.gmail@com> on Friday September 26, 2003 @07:46PM (#7068971) Homepage Journal
    comp.robotics.misc has a few useful posts.

    this post's author could be someone to ask? [google.co.uk]

  • Try froogle next time... (Score:5, Informative)

    by loucura! ( 247834 ) on Friday September 26, 2003 @07:47PM (#7068974)

    Google's froogle feature is pretty cool, I found board-mountable bluetooth modules in less than 10 seconds (I had to resort by price).

    Here's a Site that sells [c-com.com.tw] the modules.

  • Bluetooth? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 26, 2003 @07:48PM (#7068986)
    We are currently using some low-frequency Abacom RF communication modules, but would like to able to go to BlueTooth if possible.

    Why Bluetooth? A better question would have been, "We are currently using some low-frequency Abacom RF communication modules, but would like increased range, bandwidth, and fidelity. Does anyone have any recommendations for a wireless technology which will meet these needs?"

    Let the problem dictate the solution. It sounds like you're just itching to make use of Bluetooth because it's buzz-compliant.

    • Re:Bluetooth? (Score:2, Insightful)

      by node 3 ( 115640 )

      Maybe the poster, MacGod, has a Bluetooth enabled computer, and wants to simplify the robot? Bluetooth works, and is has good general support.

      Mac users tend to realize it's what your computer can do that's important, not what you can tinker with on the computer. Had he asked the question you posed, the simple, cheap and common Bluetooth protocol might have gotten far less mention than some protocol X which has a range of 1km, supports 64k simultaneous connections, costs $500/unit, and will require the stud

    • Maybe they want to control it from a standard cell phone, or PDA with bluetooth?
    • Why Bluetooth? A better question would have been, "We are currently using some low-frequency Abacom RF communication modules, but would like increased range, bandwidth, and fidelity. Does anyone have any recommendations for a wireless technology which will meet these needs?"

      Let the problem dictate the solution. It sounds like you're just itching to make use of Bluetooth because it's buzz-compliant.

      I mainly was interested in BlueTooth because it was faster, and had reasonable range than the RF modules

  • funny joke (Score:2, Funny)

    by snero3 ( 610114 )
    (please don't wipe out our server if possible)

    Um you probably should have though of that before you post to /. That is like waving a red flag to a bull. Good luck!

  • (please don't wipe out our server if possible)

    Sounds like an exercise in futility. You do know this is /., right?

    • Be honest (Score:4, Funny)

      by KU_Fletch ( 678324 ) <bthomas1 AT ku DOT edu> on Friday September 26, 2003 @08:27PM (#7069185)
      Raise you're hand if you're one of those people who clicked the link to see whether the server had been swamped yet.... come on, be honest... that's what i thought.
      • I admit, that's exactly what I did. Putting "please don't wipe out our server" is unbelievably counterproductive, and I think it was just someone covering their ass if some peers came for blood after a thrashing-- "But...I said please don't wipe out our server! I figured they'd all get in touch with each other and draw straws as to who would visit!"
      • Anyone else ever notice that flashmob is only 3 letters off from Slashdot? Clicking harmlessly is sort of like doing the twist at Bob's Big Boy, n'est-ce pas?

  • bluetooth distance (Score:1, Insightful)

    by ryanw ( 131814 )
    Well, i have a few bluetooth devices. As far as I know bluetooth's range is about 15 feet from your device. Now I'm sure you could boost it's range with antanas and such, but if you want something easy without needing to tweek, you might be looking in the wrong area. I'd go with just a regular wi-fi for robotics.
    • Personally, I wouldn't. Wifi has outrageous power demands (as is seen by how quickly it drains my laptop batteries), and increases the requirements of the host processor. For big robots that can afford an onboard laptop, this might be fine. For smaller ones running on PC104, you might manage. For microcontroller-based robots, forget it.
      • We use a standard Orinoco Silver PC Card for wireless on the (PC/104-based) avionics for our robotic helicopter, and even with a half watt external amp plugged in, the entire system gets 3 hours of battery life off a 12V 3Ah NiMH pack.
        We get a 28dB signal at slightly over a mile. As long as you don't buy a power-sucking prism-based card, it's not a problem.

    • Re:bluetooth distance (Score:5, Informative)

      by Locutus ( 9039 ) on Friday September 26, 2003 @10:23PM (#7069688)
      just having a few products doesn't mean much. Try doing a little research and you'll find the Bluetooth spec support 3 classes/ranges:

      Class 1 = 100m
      Class 2 = 10m
      Class 3 = 2m

      with corresponding power demands. All of which are still close to 1/4 the power of 802.11 devices.

      LoB
  • At uni we experimented with our lego mindstorms bricks and integrated/hacked in 802.11b to send/recieve commands/data to the units.
    (apologies for the many /'s)

  • Bluetooth lego robot (Score:3, Informative)

    by code_echelon ( 709189 ) on Friday September 26, 2003 @07:56PM (#7069040)
    Here an interesting project that uses Bluetooth. Lego Robot. [cwru.edu]
    Also here is a good overview of Bluetooth. Overview. [ucl.ac.uk]
  • It is my sad duty to report the truth: I am a York Student and we do nothing cool. I will now regress into obscurity. Register at National Semiconductor for free, and they'll send you free demo chips and they'll ship it to you for free. Good luck...sounds cool!
  • I don't know much about bluetooth but I remember a gameboy bluetooth setup that someone made for college. I was able to get a cached page of their bluetooth info here: http://216.239.51.104/search?sourceid=navclient-m e nuext&q=cache:http%3A//www.it.lth.se/it/msprojects /ita/past/playmobile/html/4/index.html

    I did a search for the ericsson development kit that they used and found a few good links:

    http://www.icr.a-star.edu.sg/cwci/hw2.htm

    http://www.stonestreetone.com/products/bluetooth _d evelopment_p

  • Those who can... (Score:1, Flamebait)

    by nadamsieee ( 708934 )

    The team consists of 6 Ph.D faculty, and the vision subsystem description notes that:

    A group needs to be formed who can now proceed to writing code to actually perform in the robosoccer environment. (sic)

    There is a saying that is "more true" in engineering: Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach.

    Does anyone think these yahoo's have a chance of actually fielding a working robosoccer team? Maybe they plan on getting a bunch of students to do the lower level design & implementation work, but that

    • Re:Those who can... (Score:1, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      If you think PhD's don't do anything but teach you are fooling yourself. Teaching undergrads is a small part of what professors do, especially in engineering. Usually professors have several research projects going on and frankly have more interesting things to do than connect a bluetooth radio tranmitter to a microcontroller (or make a widley accessible web page).
      They have the much harder job of doing the math and science needed to design and make all the little plug an play devices that people can

    • Re:Those who can... (Score:3, Interesting)

      by LenE ( 29922 )

      Does anyone think these yahoo's have a chance of actually fielding a working robosoccer team?

      I think they can. In fact I hope that they kick ass and take names.

      This is an academic contest. All of the teams are students and grad students, each sponsored by faculty members like them. There is a lot of work to do for this contest, but all previous work done by all previous teams is open to anyone who wants to join in.

      My team [cornell.edu] gives away our design and code every year. Many others do as well. We do

    • Re:Those who can... (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Kaliken ( 671206 )
      Many years ago that robocup project was actually pretty much what you are alluding to. A bunch of not very functional robots playing a game of: "shove the ball as close to the net as possible and maybe I will score"

      It wasn't until 1999 that the actual system was now considered. This is what I believe made Cornell do so well. We focused on the system. How can an improvement in mechanical design change the way to play the game? How can electrical design help out mechanical layout? Its all connected and

  • why bluetooth? (Score:4, Informative)

    by duber007 ( 180719 ) on Friday September 26, 2003 @07:59PM (#7069065) Homepage
    If you're having trouble finding something to use, maybe it's not the way to go......like other posts state, the range and BW are limited.....I'm using a nice little device from Honeywell - ROC09352XMS which is a radio-on-a-chip device for my thesis... All you need is a microcontroller with an SCI interface (i.e. just about any PIC or 68HC11 device, which most people have some knowledge of), a power supply and an antennae - everything else is self contained - and it can range from 300-900Mhz, up to 19.2kBps.....at $26US a piece, not very expensive either.....
  • I think the only real gain you would have is low power consumption. With WiFi you'd be able to run multiple channels and have IP addresses. The documentation and know how on that is well established. Bluetooth is cute, but buggy, and it certainly isn't the pancea for all things short ranged and wireless.

  • Bluetooth Modules (Score:4, Informative)

    by c_oflynn ( 649487 ) on Friday September 26, 2003 @08:05PM (#7069097)
    Hello,

    There do exsist small bluetooth modules, but not for what you want really. Bluetooth is fairly complex, and for small robots you'd be far better off designing your own protocol. And its more fun that way ;-)

    But if you are dying for bluetooth, Google is your friend:

    http://www.national.com/appinfo/wireless/LMX9820 .h tml

    http://www.wirelessfutures.co.uk/products/prod_p ro _wlsc.html

    I think there are others out there - I've heard of them before.
  • Wasssuuuuuppppp!!!

    If they're getting "bluetooth", they should turn down the cooling (10-12 degrees C is a good cellar temperature).
    Is there a Guinness expansion pack?
  • Remember this is from a university that has strengths in Agricultural Sciences, Veterinary and all around Tree Hugging. The computing department was absolutely dismal when I was a student there.

    Not bad for a bunch of hick farmers if they can pull it off.

    • It's gotten better, I only have one hick collegue out of 5 from there now.
    • I find this amusing.

      I am a student in the school of engineering at the University of Guelph, and I never suspected I would see a story about it on the front page of Slashdot. Although this university is known for it's strengths in agricultural sciences, our school of engineering is actually fairly decent. Coincidentally, one of the members of the team is my first year general engineering professor.

      Also, in the first year of entering the Formula SAE race car competition, our team placed 35th overall in the

  • Microwave? (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Have you though about using microwave communications? 28GHz ROCKS!

  • Cornell Big Red (Score:3, Informative)

    by vectra14 ( 470008 ) on Friday September 26, 2003 @08:18PM (#7069152)
    we, believe it or not, tried bluetooth for our vision->robot communication. my advice: try something simpler to just get your basic system running.

    for example, we used Radiometrix RPC's for 4 straight years.. they are really limited but everyone uses them because their problems are well known in the league. all i can say is, good luck .. and drop us (site [cornell.edu]) an email if you have specific problems..

    -sergei (cornell robocup 2003,2004)

    (sigh... /me watches this comment be ignored.)
    • Sergei, you beat me to it.

      The only thing I have to add is that Bluetooth lies in the crowded 2.4 GHz. band that is used by 802.11b. The 2.4 GHz. band was very problematic for most teams that used it this year, as the entire place was filled with 2.4 GHz. devices. Imagine a hockey stadium filled with ~500 wireless laptops and base stations, ~100 802.11b wireless robots, ~300 wireless robotic dogs and about 600 other wireless robots using some other frequency.

      Now most of these teams were using 802.11b,

    • I am going to have to agree with Sergei. Its very easy to get something simple to work. The Radiometrix RPC modules are very common. I would suggest to look at these first even if you implement them as a redundant system.

      Brief experience:
      We faced a very difficult time trying to get a bluetooth module working on our system this past year. Some of the problems were getting developer kits, getting spec sheets, and most importantly developing a good understanding of how the technology works. We found that
    • Several current RoboCup teams use the Linx Technologies HP-2 [linxtechnologies.com], which offers a simple serial interface, supports 8 channels in the 900-928MHz range (so you can avoid interference), and has a data rate up to 50Kb/sec. Unfortunatly its not a transciever, but it definitely wins on cheap, small and lightweight, and doesn't require a 1m antenna ;)

      - Jim from CMDragons 2001,02,03

      • Touche (Score:2)

        by LenE ( 29922 )
        I don't think that we needed a 1m antenna either, but I'm a ME, so what do I know ;^)

        -- Len

  • CSR and Siemens (Score:5, Informative)

    by foog ( 6321 ) <phygelus@yahoo.com> on Friday September 26, 2003 @08:27PM (#7069183)
    I'm doing some work with Bluetooth, using the CSR [csr.com] modules, "Casira" programmer, and the Bluecore programming tools. For simple stuff like headsets and RS232 links, you can run all the necessary code on the module.

    For stuff based on CSR silicon, if I were doing things over, I'd go with the Siemens dev kit for their Siemo or Siemo2 modules. Same tools, more or less, but you're working with modules right away that you can spec into a final product. I didn't find them until I was looking for prequalified modules based on CSR's chipset...

  • Am I the only one who read that as "hebrew robots"?
  • Your project page is just a little box with a blue puzzle piece in it!

    Is it symbolic of something?

    Best regards though, but my teeth are mostly yellow.
    • Whoever modded this troll is a turd. Isn't everyone on /. aware of our aversion to Flash by now? Oh yea, we're all (mostly) Windows weenies =D. Hint to the Windows users: Flash player on Linux sucks.

  • Slave driver (Score:1, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I am working some other engineers

    How brutally are you working them?
  • I'd help you, but since I'm on the RoboCup team at my school, I don't think that would be the best idea. ;)
  • At least one team using Aibo's (that at the University of Pennsylvania, who, I believe, came in third internationally this year) used (again, if I remember right; I could be off base here but there was talk about this) some sort of audio communications using the sensory capabilities of the dogs.

    Supposedly the real challenge was programming them to do the proper distinguishing between their signals and the cheers of the raving audience.

  • I thought "Oh cool, a robot that will make beer for me, using bluetooth"

    Sadly, the project page is Flash only, so I'll never know what the hell this is all about.

    Hint: It's the WEB, moron. Use normal HTML like the rest of us. Flash is mainly used for annoying, intrusive, ads, which I do not allow on my machine. It's not a good basis for an entire website, no matter what the MacroMedia salesweasel, or MacroMedia-fed half-assed web designer tells you.

    It's a crutch for the inept and useless. There are bette

    • [SWF is] not a good basis for an entire website

      Try telling that to the webmasters at Newgrounds [newgrounds.com]. Newgrounds has HTML navigation, but the meat of its content is audiovisual works in SWF format.

      There are better tools [than SWF] for animation

      What format 1. can compress a vector cel animation smaller than SWF can while retaining image quality (thus ruling out DivX, MPEG-4 advanced simple video, RealVideo, and Windows Media Video) and 2. has player plug-ins for major graphical web browsers on Windows,

      • If they use SWF for the meat of their site, they're limiting their audience. More and more people are recognizing that Shoskles and other intrusive ads won't bother them if they simply refuse to install Flash.

        I've never heard of Newgrounds. From the sound of it, they don't have content I'm interested in viewing.

        For simple, cell animation like most of what I've seen in Flash, pretty much any format that doesnt require the installation of the "take over your screen and generally piss you off" ad client is s
        • To be clear, if MacroMedia hadn't co-opted their technology by developing highly intrusive, advertisement oriented extensions to it, I'd still bother to install their plugin. As it stands, I keep a VMware machine installed in case I want to watch ENTERTAINING SWF content, as opposed to advertisements.

          Advertisers: stick to banners. Use the Internet equivalent of doubling the sound volume so that you can reach me in the bathroom, and I'll block you.
        • yes, they may limit their site to the 20% of the people surfing the internet that don't have some sort of flash plugin, but sites like his aren't meant for everyone on the net to see. Most sites for university projects are simply meant to plesent abstract information to impress professors. >>For simple, cell animation like most of what I've seen in Flash, pretty much any format that doesnt require the installation of the "take over your screen and generally piss you off" ad client is superior. sin
          • Explain "Shoskles" then.

            The Flash plugin has been an ad client since I walked past less savy co-workers' desks and watched the spaces where I only see a blue puzzle piece on the same page Writhing and Shouting and doing everythign possible to distract the reader from what they came to the page for.

            No Flash=no annoying, screaming ads.

            Therefore, Flash==Advertising engine.
            • if you justify calling it an add client based on the way one group of people uses it, then you could do that with any other language. I could just a well say java is for crappy game programming, but its not. That is just what a large group of people use it for. If you have ever been part of the flash development community you would understand that flash has many other uses.

              Calling flash an ad engine because the way 10% of flash developers use it for ads is just short-sighted.

              If you really want to
            • I do agree that flash shouldn't be used for an entire website. It's really unprofessional, and people that make entire sites using flash usually make the whole site to dark/light and way to flashy. Flash is good for homepages though, where the audiance is personal friends and only people that would find the site based on someone telling them about it.

              But just because I don't prefer it for whole sites doesn't mean that it can't be done. There are specific instances where a whole flash site is done well

  • Mitsumi WML-C09 (Score:3, Informative)

    by ccvqc ( 307904 ) on Friday September 26, 2003 @10:02PM (#7069597) Homepage
    We just started using some development kits for FPGA design from Celoxica Ltd. [celoxica.com] They came fitted with the Mitsumi module given in the subject. The interface to the FPGA consists of just 5 pins, Rx, Tx, RTS, CTS, and Reset. Celoxica provided a Handel-C demo that transmits info between the parallel port and the bluetooth module, but we haven't had a chance to experiment with it ourselves yet. Tune in later this semester! The Celoxica docs for the board refer users to the Mitsumi web site [mitsumi.co.jp] for details.

    I have some pictures of the board on the coure web site [qc.edu]. The bluetooth module is just above the "Rev B" sticker in the first picture.

  • 802.11b (Score:2, Informative)

    by Edward Faulkner ( 664260 )
    Depending on your platform, it may be a lot easier to use 802.11b. I've built mobile robots around Ipaqs and Geode single board computers. Since both have pcmcia slots, adding wireless is simple.

  • How about a Bluetooth or WiFi enabled Aibo? (Score:1, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Have you considered using pre-existing hardware, such as the Sony Aibo? Their are a few models which migh meet your needs without any hardware development costs on your part.

    They have never been marketed in the US. (Japan only AFAIK), but the 311b and the 312b models are both bluetooth enabled. They could be imported from Japan if you can find them and are willing to pay the shipping.

    On the otherhand, the 2xx series Aibo's have an internal pc-card slot intended for a specific form factor wifi-card (Orin

  • Let me get this straight... (Score:1, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Your site requires flash, you're posting it to slashdot, and you're asking us not to wipe out your server? *boggle*
  • My best suggestion (if you're really stuck on bluetooth) is to investigate parallax's basic stamp and bluetooth integration goodies; that's probably about as breadboardable and programmable as you could ask for. Genrally speaking, the prices are pretty decent too. Dont forget to investigate educational and bulk discounts :)
  • Either grab an issue of Circuit Cellar or try their site. They have yearly issue on wirless connection stuff and I think they have had a few articles on Bluetooth.

    Goodluck!
  • I recommend using the Radiometrix RPCs. They work fine, they have enough bandwidth and low enough latency for the small size league (I assume you're entering small size), and they're reasonably priced. Entering RoboCup is incredibly difficult and expensive - don't make more trouble for yourself. Also, you'll be best off to direct future requests for advice to the official robocup mailing list of your choice. People there know stuff.

  • Check out Zeevo (Score:3, Informative)

    by QuasiEvil ( 74356 ) on Saturday September 27, 2003 @01:29AM (#7070424)
    http://www.zeevo.com/

    They make a cool Bluetooth SoC that includes not only the RF chunks and necessarily Bluetooth hardware, but also an embedded ARM7TDMI processor core and flash, all on the same chip.

    The only problem is getting them to talk to you. I'm an EE for a $20 billion/year Fortune 500 that's currently working on a Bluetooth experiment, and the damned rep won't even return an email to myself or one of my fellow engineers. So all I have to play with is a module I "harvested" from another prototype device from another group. Arg!

  • blue tooth modules for small runs, prototyping here: http://www.flint.co.uk/products/index.php?manufac t urer=all&sg=&section=Communications+and+Wireless&r ange=Bluetooth+Radio+Systems&pID=000000904 " * The ISM is a Bluetooth Class 1 Module designed to plug into a host motherboard for evaluation purposes or small production runs, it can then be transferred into full volume production with the minimum of design requirements avoiding any lengthy design cycles and lowering design costs dra
  • So you enable your team to communicate to each other and/or a central strategist (bigger CPU), are there prohibitions against your opponent talking to or coopting your players ? A simple game of soccer (or football as the Euros would call it) could rapidly change over a season or two into a full blown Robowar league with the added attraction of opponents trying to mind control infect thier opponents. Could get too multifacted for a simple conflict.
    • "Ford stared at Arthur, and Arthur was astonished to find that his will was beginning to weaken. He didn't realize that this was because of an old drinking game that Ford learned to play in the hyperspace ports that served the madranite mining belts in the star system of Orion Beta. The game was not unlike the Earth game called Indian Wrestling, and was played like this: Two contestants would sit either side of a table, with a glass in front of each of them. Between them would be placed a bottle of Janx S
  • Yup, that will help when submitting a story to Slashdot.
  • I've used Stonestreet One eval units for a similar purpose. Nice documentation and easy to work with.

    http://www.stonestreetone.com/products/index.htm l
  • Having just woken up, my sleep-addled brain parsed the headline for this story as being about robots that make homebrew-as-in-beer...

    Now that would be cool, eh? :-)
  • T ake a look at the Intelegent Serial Module from TDK, www.tdksys.com it is easy to contoll with AT commands and implements a serial port interface. Halam
  • If you don't specifically need Bluetooth, you could use 802.11b - someone has written a TCP/IP stack for the 18F452 PIC, that will access either a 8139 Ethernet chip or a PRISM2 chipset 802.11b card. This corresponds to some of the cheaper wifi cards - I can look up the names if anyone is curious.

    The source code costs about 60UKP and supports SMTP, DHCP, UDP, TCP, HTTP, and some other random protocols. I'm using them in a network of robots that can all have their own IPs and websites (On an IIC EEPROM)
  • Hello! TDK Systems has a Bluetooth Module with an integrated BT stack and a serial interface. The module measures 69 x 20mm (about 2 x 0.75 in). With the RS232 style interface it uses modem style AT commands for commands/control and hence can be up and running working with a host in a very short space of time. It is a Class 1 preapproved device (100m range) but the antenna and great receiver we have gives us up to 200m range. Its called a blu2i module on the website. Hope that is interesting for you.

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