Solving a Wiring Mess? 769
FueledByRamen asks: "While trying to run a new power line for a large Sun mass-storage cabinet (located nowhere near a 220 outlet of course), I had the misfortune of needing to pop the lid on my main power distribution panel (previously opened in the late 80s). The whole thing is a rats nest and probably a fire hazard - old-style wiring with broken-down cloth/plastic insulation strewn everywhere, and the utility's incoming power cables have some sort of junction in them that's the size of a 1-liter bottle (on each wire) and is covered in layers of electrical tape. Even (gently) putting the panel back on jiggled something important, and there was a nasty cracking noise and half the breakers blew (all breakers in one of the 2 columns). I've worked with mains voltage in the past (wiring new rooms, installing lighting), but nothing on this scale, both in terms of complexity and potential for death. How do you industrious Slashdot readers go about fixing a mess like this (on a tight budget, no less) without getting a mains-induced glimpse at the great beyond?"
Good grief (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Good grief (Score:5, Funny)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9654/t esla/projecttesla.html [geocities.com]
Re:Good grief (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Good grief (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Good grief (Score:5, Informative)
In a facility I ran years ago I smelled smoke in our main distribution panel. Called our electrician and he *immediately* turned white, got out of there dragging me with him, closing the door to the small power distribution room behind him and immediately went to the building's main distribution breakers next to the elevator shaft on the bottom floor and turned off all power to our floor.
Why? He'd seen the insulation bubbling on the aluminum power cable that was connected to the main copper bus for the breaker box.
It had been connected without anti-oxidation gel and the aluminum had oxidized increasing resistance to the point where the insulation was near burning.
He told me that an electrician had been killed earlier in the year when a suburban shopping mall's main panel blew up as he was inspecting it, after having been called in during the wee hours of the night by the fire department after a report of smoke had been called in.
If the original poster's company doesn't own the building then the landlord can be forced to pay, just call in the friggin' city electrical inspector and after he shits his pants your building owner will be paying to rewire the box ASAP.
Re:Good grief (Score:5, Informative)
Why? Stuff expands when it is heated. Your connections are continually undergoing varying stresses depending on the current. When a connection works itself slightly loose, the resistance increases and the process speeds up.
Where I work, we have the local power service come in and take pictures of our distribution boxes with an infrared camera. That's a great way of pinpointing connections that are heating up too much.
This is the reason a computer can stop working, too...sometimes you can just pop the lid, wiggle everything and cinch it down, and it works.
Re:Good grief - In the good old days (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Good grief - In the good old days (Score:5, Funny)
What, you're scared of 220 Volts ? When we were growing up, we walked 200 miles through six feet of snow, wearing no shoes, and we repaired 2000 volt circuits with our bare hands. :-)
You call that tough. When I was a kid, we didn't even have hands.
Re:Good grief - In the good old days (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Good grief - In the good old days (Score:4, Funny)
Electrician's Comment on 240V (Score:5, Insightful)
Basically, don't fsck with the stuff unless you know what you're doing.
Re:Electrician's Comment on 240V (Score:4, Informative)
Most Americans who aren't professional electricians don't have much experience working with the 220, except maybe plugging in their driers. Therefore, people don't treat it with the same respect that they should, as evidenced by FueledByRamen who needs to back away from his box slowly and call a professional electrician.
Re:Good grief - In the good old days (Score:5, Interesting)
God, I knew someone was going to say that. Ohm's law... I=V/R. If the voltage goes up, so does the current. They are not mutually exclusive.
Re:Good grief - In the good old days (Score:5, Funny)
So resistence...is not futile?
Bubba says WAKE UP AMIGO!!! (Score:5, Informative)
But you need to stay FAR away from the Main Panel unless you are knowledgeable. That thing is dangerous, there ARE many non obvious mistakes you can make if you are not an experienced electrician. You can hurt yourself, burn down the building, damage stuff attached to the electrical system, and if you do something REAL IGNORANT, it is possible (unlikely) you can hurt someone working for the power company outside the house.
This is coming from a Gung Ho!!! Do It Yourselfer/ Shade Tree Mechanic
Why Doctors are not Electricians (Score:5, Insightful)
LESSON 1: Polarity
Here's a cool tip for you. When wiring up electrical outlets, if you reverse the hot and the neutral lines, you actually create a voltage potential between the outlets. I discovered this because I touched the stove and the refridgerator at the same time accidentally. I got a huge jolt, shook a bit, and called the land lord.
LESSON 2: Breakers and Wiring Guages
If you should ever run wiring in your house, you need to make sure that the breaker that you use matches the capabilities of the wiring. If you should decide to run wiring into an attic using 15 amp capable wiring, it is a bad idea to put a 30 amp breaker on it. It's an even worse idea to hook up approximately 27 amps worth of electrical heaters to this circuit because it will cause the wiring in the wall to catch fire. Of course if one assumes that the person wiring the house isn't insane, you may not know to avoid plugging in said heaters.
LESSON 3: DOCTORS ARE NOT ELECTRICIANS
Eletricity isn't brain surgery, and just as you don't want an electrician siticking sharp metal objects into your brain, you don't want a doctor futzing with wiring. Actually I suppose if you are a doctor who does know how to work with electricity it would be okay, but the one who had previously owned our house had no clue on the subject. Worse, he had no clue and he mistakenly thought that he knew everything.
So, if you look in the electrical box and it instills fear in you, call a professional. Don't even think of doing it yourself.
Re:Good grief (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Good grief (Score:5, Funny)
I'm half expecting the next "Ask Slashdot" to start, "Dear Slashdot, This morning I was diagnosed with acute Apendicitis. I've fooled around a little with self dentistry in the past, but I'm not entirely sure I'm up to a job of this magnitude..."
Legal Issues of Working on Electricity (Score:5, Interesting)
If you're talking about not having a 220-volt outlet nearby, you're probably American. But you're calling it "mains power", which is usually a Commonwealth thing. Are you by chance Canadian?
In most of the US, at least if you're in a city or a medium-heavily-populated county, there's probably a building code electrical code that says who's allowed to work on what kind of electricity. Usually in a home, you're allowed to work on sockets and switches inside existing electrical boxes, and almost everywhere you're not allowed to touch the main power feed yourself, and in some jurisdictions you can install new electrical boxes and plug-in circuit breakers yourself and in some you can't. (In New Jersey, you can negotiate with the building inspectors about not noticing things, but Darwin usually wants bigger bribes than they do...) In commercial buildings, you're more likely to need a license.
If you're required to use a licensed electrician for something, and you do it yourself, various Bad Things can happen, and if you do it your self and something goes wrong, more Bad Things _will_ happen. You do not want this... And you said that it looked ugly in there - this significantly increases the chances that if you do work on it yourself, something will go wrong, or perhaps Terribly Wrong, either because it really is an ugly mess or because it's beyond your skill level or both. And if you're renting your building instead of owning it yourself, your lease probably mentions some of the requirements. If you have fire insurance or liability insurance, those contracts probably also require licensed electricians for cases like this.
Whats next - Solving a sanitary mess? (Score:5, Funny)
Seriously though, there is life outside whatever burnt out dot com shell you are currently living in, with only the roaches keeping you company. You need to get out and get your bare feet on the grass for a while. Smoke something. Lie in the sun with your eyes closed. Try and forget there was ever a place and time when you thought it would be smart to do your own high voltage wiring.
Reminds me of the time ... (Score:5, Funny)
Late one summer night, with the park full of people, all the lights on 'main street' went off.
I was nearby the park's main junction box and helped one of the engineers, an unassuming guy who had worked at the park for years, by holding a flashlight while he started work on the box.
The box was ancient. Cloth wrapped wires. Giant fuses. Old rusty exposed mechanical switches. The works. For whatever reason, one of the main switches had popped open. The engineer first tries popping it back in place. The lights flicker and it just pops back out.
The guy looks at me and says "Point the light at the ground. Help me find some old wire". He searches around with his hands for a minute and finds a snipping of some very heavy guage plastic insulated wire.
To my shock, the guy closes the switch shut with one hand while using the other to hold the insulated part of the wire and *arc-welds the switch shut* with the wire's exposed conductor! Sparks flew, the lights snapped back on, and I damn near shit my pants. This good old boy engineer didn't even blink. "That should hold it until we can get someone out tomorrow".
The only thing I can figure is that he was somehow electrically insulated, perhaps from his huge set of balls for even considering something like this.
Auditioning for the Darwin award??? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Auditioning for the Darwin award??? (Score:3, Insightful)
DISCLAIMER: If you kill/maim/injure yourself or burn down your place of business based on the information below I in no way take any responsiblity for your actions or the information which I am
Re:Nope (Score:5, Informative)
This is extremely good advice.* Professional electricians will put a little warning sign over any breakers, switches, etc. that are shut off that says essentially, "if you turn on power here, you'll kill someone." Make sure you have one.
That said, I too think this is a very good way to add yourself to the next Darwin Awards.
*Ignoring the goofup with "insure" used rather than "ensure", but that's not a *big* deal.
Hang a LOCK. (Score:5, Informative)
Don't have one of those? THAT'S BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT FARKIN' QUALIFIED TO DO THE WORK!
If you have not had the correct training, you CAN NOT safely lock out equipment. Sure. You locked it out. You stuck your wiggy in the wall socket to make sure you got a buzz. You tested each terminal and they were all dead. You started stripping wires. You reached way into the cabinet to unscrew some terminals in the back. It got dark and the building's outside lighting circuit turned on. Guess what? Someone ran the lighting circuit through the box.
oopsie.
You don't know what you're doing. Neither does the person who "told you how" to do this safely. Hire a professional.
Safety practices around high power. (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Safety practices around high power. (Score:5, Interesting)
Then, you put your lock on, through one hole. Your buddy put HIS lock on through another hole. Anyone else that came along later? They put their lock on too, through another hole.
That way, the first guy doesn't mistakenly power the system back on, zotting some other guy that came along after him and went "Oh, OK, it's already locked out."
Encrypted data exchange (Score:5, Interesting)
The problem they're trying to solve is that a message gets sent through a public channel (such as the postal service) without either party giving up their private key and without the data ever being unencrypted until it's safely in the hands of the recipient. The best explanation of it I've heard goes like this.
"Alice writes a message and locks it in a chest with her padlock. This chest has holes (hasps) for two separate padlocks. [Note: no reason it can't have n hasps, as in the wiring example.] She sends the locked box to Bob through the mail.
Bob places his own padlock through the remaining hasp, and mails it back to Alice.
Alice removes her own padlock and mails the box, with just Bob's padlock on it, back to Bob.
Bob removes his own padlock and reads the message."
Of course, this is all being done over TCP instead of the post, and with math instead of padlocks, but you get the idea.
None of this has anything to do with a wiring mess, but the similarities are striking.
Re:Nope (Score:3, Interesting)
I spent some time at a Walmart warehouse. Big facility, lots of cool conveyor belts. They made a *HUGE* point of tagging and locking anything you're working on. I guess it only makes it slightly more hazardous that all their racks are metal, so if you have a main wire disconnected, and it was touching the metal of the racks, you could make an electrical hazard out of a piece of metal 3
Re:Auditioning for the Darwin award? CAPACITORS! (Score:3, Informative)
A big detail is that you must discharge any capacitors. THEY will kill you, even with the power off, and sometimes, they are not easy to find.
Don't do this, sheesh, it doesn't sound like a job worth dying from, now, does it.
Re:Auditioning for the Darwin award??? (Score:4, Insightful)
Having worked as a theatrical light technician, tagging out a circuit is second nature to me now, but incompetence is a force to be reckoned with. About a year ago, I was changing an intelligence module in a hard-wired Rosco dimmer (basically involves removing 4 mains wires, and a few ribbon cables). I had tagged the circuit out and got on the scissor lift to change the module. When I removed the access panel the power LED was lit...turns out someone had removed my tag and turned the breaker on again...moron! I stationed a fellow tech by the panel while I finished the job.
Another piece of sound advice when working in HV situations (or, rather, any situation not involving low-voltage wiring) is to only make contact with one hand leaving the other behind one's back--that'll reduce the chance of getting a current across your chest which'll send you to lighting tech heaven.
Re:Auditioning for the Darwin award??? (Score:5, Interesting)
So we borrowed/rented the equipment we needed, and the lights, wired everything up, and got ready to hook the main control box up. I got the pigtails ready and opened up the panel where the theater tech told me the power should be.
Inside, three very large, uninsulated, copper bars going from top to bottom.
All the others with me just looked at it and said "all yours, man". Great. So I double-checked the power was turned off to this panel- it had a very large switch, and you could *see* the switches disengage, but I still didn't trust that, then triple-checked it with a meter.
I was still nervous as all hell just putting my hand near these things, even knowing they were off. One handed, keeping the other hand behind me (I remembered that advice from my HS electronics teacher) I undid the big allen bolts and hooked the pigtail up.
It actually worked first try. Undoing it at the end of the production was almost as harrowing as the first time. I had the old mantra of labratory physics running through my head- "Hot glass looks exactly like cold glass", only I had modified it to "live copper looks exactly like dead copper". I also knew that if it was live, I probably wouldn't even know it before I was killed or rendered unconscious.
Yeesh. I still can't believe I was stupid or bold enough to do that.
In keeping with the other folks here, I'd say to the original asker, hire a bloody electrician, and don't get near the thing until someone tells you it's safe. Budget be damned, you don't want to risk your life on something like that.
Hooking up a simple pigtail is one thing, futzing around in the panel you described is suicide.
On a side note, I once got nailed by a 220 V dryer when I was about 8 years old. I was reaching for a sock that had fallen behind it, and touched one of the leads that was left exposed (!). It threw me about 15 feet across the laundry room and put a crack in the door where I hit it.
Re:Auditioning for the Darwin award??? (Score:4, Informative)
"I would suggest buying several different colors to help keep things straight in the next step."
Um, there are color codes for a reason:
black (for sure), red (if 220), orange (if 3-phase, then it's the high leg) are all hot
white - neutral
no insulation or green - ground
"SHUT OFF THE POWER AND INSURE IT WILL NOT BE TURNED BACK ON UNTIL YOU ARE DONE!!!"
And if possible, pull the meter. Seriously. Have the power company pull the meter, do your work with the meter pulled, then have the power company put the meter back in. However, the power company will probably want to see a permit, and that will take a licensed electrician in most cases, so that may not be an option.
Also...if you are terminating aluminum connections, make sure to use anti-oxidant goop on the terminations and torque them only to the recommended specs. Don't have a torque wrench? Call an electrician. Al is nasty if not terminated correctly. In fact, that goes for all connections. If at possible, beg or borrow a torque wrench so that you can terminate connections to the proper specifications. Note that that only applies to main connections, not branch circuits.
Outsource (Score:4, Funny)
Obvious answer? (Score:5, Redundant)
buy the cheapest parachute you can! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:buy the cheapest parachute you can! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:buy the cheapest parachute you can! (Score:5, Informative)
You've got to be respectful of it but with 110 I didn't even realize I was being shocked until well after the fact.
Dude, 110 volts is most certainly enough to kill. True, most of us have been "tingled" by 110/115 a few times, and didn't die... all that proves is that we were lucky on those occassions.
For an interesting discussion of why low voltages *can* be deadly, see this page [dansdata.com].
The bottom line is, lower voltages tend to be "safer" due to the resistance of your body, and the fact that low voltage power sources also usually have a fairly low current capacity. But try wetting your hands and grabbing the leads from an arc welder set on 200+ amps sometime, if you don't think low voltage can f#@k you up.
Re:buy the cheapest parachute you can! (Score:4, Interesting)
At Brookhaven National Lab, the high-voltage systems are considered relatively safe. It's the 5V electronics-power distribution systems that carry upwards of 600A and have fuses bigger around than your fist. Shorting one of those with a wrench would make the wrench explode.
110V can tickle. 5V can kill.
Re:buy the cheapest parachute you can! (Score:5, Funny)
A friend of mine and I were leaning over a running engine on opposite sides of the car.
He touched an ignition cable and the current went
- Up his arm
- Down his legs to earth
- Up *my* legs to crotch
- from my crotch to frame of car that I was leaning against to look in engine bay.
Ow. Sure didn't see that one coming!
Re:buy the cheapest parachute you can! (Score:4, Funny)
- Up his arm
- Down his legs to earth
- Up *my* legs to crotch
Nothing but net!
110V is more of a surprise than a hurt... (Score:3, Interesting)
What colour is your parachute? (Score:3, Funny)
Good, cheap, fast: pick any two (Score:5, Insightful)
sPh
Re:Good, cheap, fast: pick any two-Insurance. (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Good, cheap, fast: pick any two (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Good, cheap, fast: pick any two (Score:3, Interesting)
I've done that -- not a house fuse, but the "slow-blow" fuse protecting the motor in a (now ancient) Decwriter dot matrix terminal. (As I said, ancient technology). It was late, I was fixing some code, and a piece of paper jammed the print head and the fuse blew. No spare fuses. So I got a foil-wrapped chocolate bar out of the vending machine, wrapped some foil around the burnt-out fuse, replaced it and kept coding.
And yes, left a note to remind myself or whoever used the term
Do it wireless! (Score:3, Funny)
3 steps (Score:4, Funny)
2. ??? (Collect insurance)
3. Profit!!
Don't you have any interns at your place? (Score:5, Funny)
Just spray it away (Score:5, Funny)
Blackout (Score:5, Funny)
Where's the smiley? (Score:5, Funny)
My god, I expected this to be signed "a recently unemployed power grid manager in Ohio"...
Hmm, well now ... (Score:5, Insightful)
I know you want to save money but you're likely to fry the electric equipment in your establishment and might take yourself with it. Hiring a professional would likely be cheaper in the long run.
Re:Hmm, well now ... (Score:5, Funny)
IANAE (Score:3, Funny)
I Am Not An Electrician, and from the sounds of it, neither are you.
I'd suggest hiring one.
I don't have my power back yet (Score:5, Funny)
Pay me now, pay me later... (Score:5, Funny)
1) Hire a professional electician at a very high rate of pay to rewire the box and make it safe.
2) Hire a burn specialist at an extremely high rate of pay to patch your smoking body together after attempting to fix it yourself.
Phrases most commonly heard before death (Score:5, Funny)
5) Mike Tyson sounds like a girl.
4) Honey, that's just the PMS talking.
3) [Redneck accent]Hey y'all, watch this...
2) Betcha can't...
1) We'll save a lot of money by not hiring an electrician...
'Nuff said.
In the same vein... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:In the same vein... (Score:4, Insightful)
Because of this design, there was a problem with unused components around the room charging automagically. It really was a room I didn't care much for.
There was a box of old flourescent tubes by the door, a long list of do's and don'ts, and a final summary in really big writing. It said something like:
1. Do not enter without a tube.
2. If the tube glows, go somewhere else.
3. Don't touch anything until you've seen someone else touch it first.
Two ways (Score:5, Insightful)
1. Read National Electrician's Code and the
Emerald book (IEEE guide). Then figure out
who installed the wiring and get a full layout
from them. Buy electrician's equipment as
necessary. Fix the problem.
2. Hire an electrician. You'll still need full
layout of your wiring.
wording (Score:5, Interesting)
If you have to ask... (Score:5, Insightful)
Sorry, but this is the kind of thing that only years of experience can help with. If you didn't look at it and already know how to approach the problem, you probably shouldn't be messing around in there, unless you have all the time in the world to experiment and learn your way through the mess.
First I was surprised that IANAL advice hasn't landed some "Ask Slashdotter" in prison. Now we're aiming for our first fatality?
You're going to get a lot of advice (Score:3, Informative)
I've wired up several additional circuits in my home and my office and it's not that hard. All I needed was a little common sense, a copy of the Ugly's book [barnesandnoble.com], and the local home depot. In your case though, if the main drop coming in from the pole is bad, you need to have the power company turn off your service drop so you can replace it.
If the main lines coming in are safely insulated and do not need to be replaced, then what you can do is shut off the main breaker, unscrew all the circuits coming in to the individual breakers, and replace all your house wiring and perhaps all the breakers as well. This is not a job for the faint of heart, but I wouldn't say it's incredibly skill-intensive. Just takes some patience to wire up all that stuff and not slip with your hand/screwdriver and hit the main lugs. If they're exposed where they connect to the main breaker, then you might want to cover them up with cardboard and tape while you're working.
Oh, and don't blame me if you kill yourself. I'm not an electrician - an electrician would tell you to hire an electrician. I'm just telling you where *I* would start.
Suck it up (Score:5, Informative)
Suck it up and hire an electrician. Seriously. Yes, those of us who have done lots of electrical work and know not to connect power to ground may feel that it's horribly wrong to pay someone for this, but you really should do it. Even if you know what you're doing, things can always go wrong, and if you're not a licensed electrician you could be opening yourself up to lawsuits by the power company, building code violations, you could lose insurance, etc.
Now, if you want to do your own work inside your house, I would recommend that you get the electrician to install a master lockout switch (different from a master breaker in the panel) between you and the mains supply. Then, play with anything behind that, and you probably won't get in trouble with the power company. You can go re-wire your whole panel yourself, and save some money (getting them to install the lockout switch will be quite cheap comparitively)
Call an electrician!!!! (Score:4, Informative)
In all seriousness, a wire job as large as you describe will likely have to be permitted with your local government construction office. That means that the work has to be performed by a licensed electrician and it has to be inspected the appropriate government agency afterwards.
You're Kidding, Right? (Score:5, Funny)
So, lick the terminals to find out which ones are hot (works with 9V batteries). Then, standing in a bucket of water, grab a big handful of cables and PULL.
Ignore the fizzing and the smell of burning hair. Douse any lingering flames with gasoline.
Don't fuck with it. (Score:5, Insightful)
If the panel is at work, it's probably illegal for you to work on it. In the immortalized words of Beowulf Schaeffer, "Its Worth Yore Life And More To Go In There!" Seriously, as an uber-l337 633K, you probably have the ability to find the place where the short occurred -- but do you really want to (A) monkey around in a box with live current (it sounds like that is your main box, not a subpanel); (B) stick your neck out by breaking the law for your employer; and (C) possibly assume liability for burning down the building? No? I didn't think so.
If you're at home, you're probably allowed to work on it -- but most places require you to get an electrical inspector to look at it once you're done. Unfortunately, doing this requires getting the local electrical code, so that you know what you're doing -- and that's a whole separate rant. The National Electrical Code is adopted into most municipalities' building codes -- but it's copyrighted by the National Fire Prevention Association. Fortunately, the Supreme Court recently decided that it's unconstitutional to attempt to copyright the law of the land. Unfortuantely, you can't get the electrical code online yet -- you probably still have to buy it.
200 Machines? No budgets?? quit!!! (Score:4, Informative)
If you have that much machines running, there's a budget for maintenance.
If your employer tells you to fix it yourself with new wire and duct tape, he either doesn't give a sh*t about you and your safety, or he's completely insane.
Hiring an electrician to install some lamp wiring is stupid and overkill if someone in-house can do it, but playing in an electric box isn't.
For the price it would cost you to have it done by a professional
1. you will cut the downtime,
2. have a fully secured panel (and certified)
3. If it catches on fire you won't have problem with insurance claims since it was certified (whereas if you mess around in this yourself without the credentials, you could run in a PILE and I do mean a PILE of problems). This point alone should make a perfect argumentation to any "managers".
4. Your paycheck isn't worth you life, especially if you have to turn around to slashdot for advice.
5. If you are so much on a tight budget, sell off one machine to pay for the contractor, or try to find someone that would do it for cheap, still, you'll have to pay for the material and it doesn't come cheap. I don't beleive in "tight budgets" for critical things like this, again, if you can afford having this many machines running, you can afford to support them, if they are all put to use, surely you are generating revenues, if they aren't , they can be sold.
6. See point #4 as a personnal advice.
I'd be really scared to work at some company that couldn't afford an electrician for a job like this, if they are so tight, chances are your paycheck will eventually bounce, so risking that much for that little...
The buddy system and a couple of rules (Score:5, Insightful)
If you are not a certified electrician that has been trained to deal with that voltage range do not attempt to do so.
If you are going ahead anyway. Take another person with you at all times. Your buddy should be able to shut down the entire mains current within slit seconds. Your buddy should have a wood/rubber/plastic or otherwise insulating device that can be used to knock you away from the power source if necessary.
Never use both hands, current will flow through your heart and spine. Do not wear anything metallic such as chains, watches, rings etc.
Remember that even if you wear double or triple insulation that a high enough electrical potential can break through anyway. I work with 600+ Volt pulse LASER capacitors and I've seen arcs go through plastic.
To reiterate. If your not qualified do not attempt to do the job. Anything that you do based on any of the above is your responsibility only.
Good Luck.
Re:The buddy system and a couple of rules (Score:3, Interesting)
Actually, wouldn't it make sense to wear a metal bracelet with a thick gauge copper wire wired directly to ground? Then if current happened to flow into your hand it would preferentially flow straight to ground through the copper path, instead of through your body.
Not that I'm advocating working on a high voltage setup, I'm simply asking out of curiosity...
Re:The buddy system and a couple of rules (Score:5, Informative)
Instead of having a chance at reconstructing a lot of body, you have no hand - it can't be reconstructed at that point. But you won't have to reconstruct your other body parts.
In short, you NEVER, EVER, EVER ground yourself when working on high voltages. IIRC, anything over 60 volts is considered 'high voltage'.
The grounding straps you use for electronics have a built in resistor of 1Meg Ohm or so, but the insulation break down resistance is low, so it will act as a straight route to ground in the presence of high voltage - not good. You only use a certified grounding wire when working with non-powered equipment.
-Adam
Its ILLEGAL in most places.... (Score:4, Informative)
For home, who cares,,, for business: follow the rules.
insanity (Score:5, Informative)
If you are the unlucky person that has to fix it, then find the main that feeds that panel and TURN IT OFF.
Don't even think about trying to fix this problem while it is hot. Not unless you've got a deathwish and, if you have any family you care about, a great big life insurance policy that will still pay out after acts of stupidity.
I've worked around a few power systems, and the one thing above all else, give that electrical panel LOTS OF RESPECT. Always assume a circuit is hot, even if "you KNOW you turned it off earlier". Always leave a flag on the circuit that you turned off so that others know it is off on purpose, especially if you have to turn off a main to kill power to that panel. Always remember SAFETY FIRST, even when your working on a "dead" panel. If you have insulated tools, good -- use them. If you have heavy duty insulated gloves -- use them. Never work alone -- always have somebody around that is aware of what your doing and that can check on you from time to time, or better yet, keep you in sight. They don't have to help you work on the circuits, but if something goes horribly wrong and you get zapped, that person can call 911 and get you help.
Flag? (Score:3, Informative)
Get a keyed lock with one key.
Turn it off, lock it out, carry the key while you work.
That is the ONLY way to do it.
You've GOT to be kidding! (Score:4, Insightful)
IANAE, but anyone can play anything on the web, right?
If you're *totally* determined to do it yourself, do the obvious. Turn off the upstream power (omit long-winded story of how to power a data center when the main is down - been there ). Make sure you understand what all the parts are, how to tell if they need replacing, and have replacements on hand before you start.
I would guess that there are innumerable sources of education and product sales in this area, so it shouldn't be *that* hard to figure out what everything is, why it is there and how to test it.
On the other hand, there *is* a learning curve involved, and I shouldn't need to point out the dangers of working on a *hot* box based soley on theoretical knowledge! How long do you have to learn how to fix it before you get more than just sparks?
Disclaimer: I've never done any hands-on on anything bigger than your average house feed. I do feel like I learned a lot from being a curious guy in general and having access to a Master Electrician for a couple years, including building out a new data center. And in your shoes, I would not undertake the task without hazard pay that would be higher than the cost of the electrician.
Another possibility is to call the power company, get them to take a look (say you smelled smoke, or saw sparks or something). I doubt they'll fix it, but they'll definitely escalate the problem for you.
Future Ask Slashdot Questions (Score:5, Funny)
What is the best way to travel about in a war zone?
What is the best way to tell my spouse that she needs to lose A LOT of weight?
How can I get close to the President while carrying a handgun?
How can I steal power from a high tension line?
Re:Future Ask Slashdot Questions (Score:5, Funny)
some mirrors, peel back the skin, and use a
hole saw or dremel depending on what kind of
access panel you want. Apply more cocaine.
Apply more valium. Get a paper clip hot with
a bunsen burner and cauterize the tumor.
2) Get the best night vision goggles you can,
and ceramic body armor, kevlar helmet. Don't
carry anything that looks remotely like a weapon.
Depending on prevailing rules of engagement, wear
a red cross. Use inconspicuous local vehicles,
the lower-tech the better. Cease moving when
you get a hint of a battle group nearby.
Try to stay close to heavy cover, such as
large rocks, substantial depressions in the earth.
3) Get a skinny mistress.
4) Join the secret service.
5) Invest in Enron.
Photograph! (Score:5, Interesting)
As a devoted employee.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Step 1: Buy life insurance, lots of it. Name your employer sole beneficiary.
Step 2: Attempt to "fix" this yourself.
Step 3: PROFIT! The company can use the benefits (assuming the insurer doesn't use your actions as prima facie evidence of suicidal intent) to hire a professional to do the job right. You'll be dead, but that's a small price to pay, eh?
Seriously, what has our country come to where this is a legitimate question? Techies should be comfortable replacing wall switches and outlets, installing undercounter lighting, and other light work. But anything involving the main should go to the professionals without a second thought. If it's as bad as you said, it should also go to the lawyers - wasn't this building ever inspected? Who did this shoody work before, or allowed it to remain in such poor condition?
Think about it this way - imagine this was a manufacturing shop and people have routine cuts and burns and the like. No big deal, anyone with modest first aid skills can deal with it. But if somebody came in with a compound fracture and 4" of bone showing, would you patch them with the ace bandage and send them on their way? Or would you decide that this is one of those situations where you need to call in the professionals?
#1 Do YOU OWN THE BUILDING ? (Score:4, Interesting)
If your company owns the building, GET PROFESSIONAL HELP 220/440 is not for playing with, and any micro variations WILL cause problems in the future. Our MTF (money transfer faciclity) had a single strand not properly grounded in a secure vault, and everytime then bloody door was slammed it caused a parity error on a mulitprocessing enviroment and forced several hundred transactions to be re-run. Took 2 or 3 weeks and power monitors to locate the short and LOTS OF TIME to correct, minimize it by using people WHO KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING.
Sorry, but I'm old school... (Score:3, Insightful)
Many of the electrical contractors out there are looking to have a website built. And frankly it's a good trade. Even if they have to "Buy parts" it becomes a business expence and then is deductable, as is any website "billing" I do for them.
It's a win-win situation, and everyone thinks they got the best deal.
But the bottom line is, hire a professional. Your main power line is nothing you want to screw-up.
-Goran
Scope it out (Score:5, Informative)
First, find an electrician friend or at least an electrician who is DIY friendly and get a professional opinion. If the insulation in the panel is bad it may be bad in the walls as well. You may not want to know.
While you can do the research and learning yourself, a pro will quickly spot certain gotchas like aluminum wiring without the proper anti-corrosion connectors or grease.
They will also likely spot other things you would probably miss such as certain Federal Pacific Electric panels and breakers (http://www.inspect-ny.com/fpe/sec1982.htm).
In my case I knew plenty about electricity in general but hiring a friend for a few hours to review the project and teach me the tricks really helped speed the job. He was also able to review the codes. Again, basic electricity wasn't the problem but my friend was intimate with all the issues like where GFCIs are required, required height of outlets, how many are required per wall, allowed location and hole sizes in floor joists, locations where conduit/BX is and is not required.
A lot of the codes sound arbitrary and to a certain extent they are but before dismissing them as silly remember that they represent the accumulated wisdom from the fires, electrocutions, etc. in the past. Building codes are all written in blood.
A pro can show you good tricks. For example, throw away the stupid paper template that comes with the retrofit junction boxes and simply hold a torpedo level against the box, use a tape to measure the proper height and pencil around the box then cut.
Also, before locating a box take a piece of straight coat-hanger wire, chuck it into a drill, and drill it through the baseboard or ceiling wherever you want to locate the box. Then crawl under the house or into the attic and the wire will give you the exact location so you can check for obstructions and you can drill the holes in the right place. Much better than trying to measure plus coathangers are free and the tiny hole is easily filled with a dab of spackle.
If you do get into major rewiring I recommend a few things:
1. Use 20 amp wiring - the material cost is very slightly higher but labor isn't. You have extra capacity and lower resistance losses.
2. More breakers - OK, I went a bit overboard with well over 20 breakers in a 1200 square foot house but running every kitchen outlet to its own breaker cost me very little in time or money and I have no problem running the microwave, coffee maker, waffle maker, toaster along with the fridge and dishwasher.
3. Outlets everywhere. I added outlets in every closet - they are great for powering chargers, adding a burglar alarm, etc. Add them where you might add appliances - I'm finally getting a garage door opener but the install will be easy since the outlet is already in place. While I was up in the attic I added an outlet under the eaves - handy every Christmas. I increased the number ouf outlets 3-4 fold and have used every one.
4. Run 240 to the garage - you will eventually want to run a small welder and even if not you might want to use it for an illegal backfeed from your generator in a blackout (just be sure to kill the main breaker first).
Upgrading to a solid over-engineered electrical system wasn't like getting a new computer or other toy - it was more like finally getting a pebble out of my shoe (no more blown fuses, no more sticking a three prong adapter on the extension cord then tossing it out the bathroom window to be able to mow the back lawn...) It's work but the result is nice.
Electrician (Score:4, Insightful)
This is a definate case where you *MUST* hire an electrician. I emphasize *MUST* because you're probably going to kill yourself in the process.
Most states and communities have laws saying electrical work must be done by a licensed electrician.
I forewarn you though, he's going to want to kill the power to that box while he works. If it's as much of a mess as you're saying, it's more than just the box that needs rewiring. All those old cloth insulated wires go somewhere, probably to more fire hazards throughout your building.
Get a contractor to have a look at it. Where you caused a short just by putting the lid on, you're not far from starting a fire, and be glad those breakers are working, they may have just saved your life, and your equipment.
I'm not saying this because I think work should be farmed out. I'm a firm believer that I can do anything. But, even I have limits. Rewiring a building is a bit beyond what I'm willing to do. Even if I was willing, I know perfectly well it would take too long doing by myself, which will probably be unhealthy for your companies income, if the servers are all down for too long.
All this reminds me of a joke... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:All this reminds me of a joke... (Score:5, Funny)
Speaking from experience - DON'T DO IT YOURSELF (Score:3, Interesting)
I have been on the recieving end of a 220v shock because someone flipped a breaker on a circuit after someone else did a home-brew wiring job. Had I picked up the wire with two hands rather than one, I would be dead and decomposing nicely by now.
I have done my fair share of homebrew jobs and after a number of lessons learned the hard way. I now have a lot of respect for electricity and use a great deal of caution with any wiring job.
Wiring something from scratch is one thing, what you describe is a DEATH TRAP!!! DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT!!
I suspect that even an experienced professional would be a bit gun-shy with the setup that you have.
[And yes, I have replaced contact swtiches in my microwave, serviced the non user-servicable parts in my TV, swapped parts in my computer's power supply, re-wired my car, and a lot of other dumb things. I have some idea of what I am doing, but I wouldn't even consider doing that wiring job for a nano-second! Even I am not that deranged.]
Dive right in there! (Score:3, Funny)
Roll up your sleeves, don some rubber gloves, and start by straightening out that mess.
If you've ever made a really clean rackmount you know what to do. Make all the wires go in straight lines with nice ties keeping them together.
Now, I'm sure you've seen a movie where the protagonist has to defuse a bomb by cutting the correct colored wire, often in conditions that impair his color perception. This is very similar. You should use the same basic strategy, which is hover the wire cutters over each wire and drip sweat into that bubbling, crackling maze of death. Try not to flinch when each drop of sweat causes an electrical arc to sparc towards your face. At the last second when you think the entire box is about the explode (determined by sound) quickly cut the wire that seemed LEAST LIKELY. Note it is very important that you do NOT cut the wire that you were hovering over for a long time because it seemed right. That is the wrong wire and cutting it will kill you. Cut the one next to it.
Next add 'High Voltage Electrical work' to your resume and ask for a raise!
Arent you... (Score:4, Funny)
Hire a Electrician! (Score:3, Insightful)
If its beyond your ablity, dont even think of doing it yourself.
you could easly die, or burn the place down since you obviously dont have a good enough clue to be doing that sort of electrical work.
YOu dont live near me i hope.. *shudder*
You do it properly (Score:3, Insightful)
You will save yourself a lot of headaches downstream. There's a time to DIY and there's a time when experience is essential.
Think of it this way: if the wiring had been done properly before, you would not be having this problem now.
Personal Notes (Score:3, Informative)
First, if you can, get a pro instead. That being said, there's a lot of good you can usually do without a pro's help. Playing with mains is not the thing to do if you're an armchair electrician like myself. Those sorts of things I usually leave to them. You can, however, do work on the non-mains wiring without seriously endangering yourself. I managed to wire my entire house to the box after the mains were properly installed and am quite living to talk about it.
Here's the problem with mains: They're either a) not breakered if you're past the mains breaker, or b) the mains breaker is too high to stop anything from frying you where you stand. One thing you definately want to avoid besides touching the mains is cutting them. If you cut it on the service side of the mains breakers, oftentimes they're not breakered back down the line. The line back to the transformer will glow very pretty red and probably catch on fire, depending on whether or not the transformer blows up right away or later. It can be impressive, I don't recommend it.
Work with one hand in the box when attaching wires to/from the breakers themselves. One hand behind the back will keep a path from going across your heart. Avoid standing in kiddie pools while working on the box. Strip the wires only right before you are going to hook them into the breakers, that way you don't accidentally make contact early. Shut off everything you can before playing in the box. If you can't shut off the mains, have a person near you to whack you away with a board or call 911. If you can shut of the mains, you're reasonably protected, just use a voltmeter to make sure.
Common sense prevails here. If it makes you shaky and nervous to get in the box, get a pro. Otherwise, watch yourself and keep your head on, and you can do some of the work without harm.
FueledByRamen - Please Follow Up (Score:3, Insightful)
Sweet merciful crap, man! Please send Slashdot another note tomorrow that you hired somebody who fixed this - so we can see the report in a Slashback, and not be worrying that you're in our building somewhere.
Sweet merciful crap! I hope to goodness you're trolling.
In summary... Sweet merciful crap!
No useful info, just a story (Score:5, Interesting)
One time we had to run a network cable from one end of the building to the other -- nearly 100 meters -- and the only way we could figure out to do it was to send someone down there to crawl it through. I'm glad I didn't draw the short straw that day...
A few hints, first and foremost: hire a pro. (Score:4, Informative)
I'm not an electrician, but I've done a lot of my own electrical work, and I've put in a good bit of study to make sure I'm doing it right.
The problem you describe sounds like a major one, and you'll need to hire an electrician. It's what I would do, and I feel comfortable wiring anything in my house this side of the main breaker. Fact is, you may need to replace the whole panel, and that requires coordination with the utility company to pull your meter, and you'll probably need a new service entrance. That's just not a handyman job.
That said, the "old wiring" may not be as bad as it looks. Get a professional opinion, of course. There are a few kinds of old wire with paper/cloth insulation. The oldest Romex has a shellacked paper or cloth outer wrapper and rubber insulation on the wires. The rubber becomes brittle with age, and should probably be replaced to avoid shorts and arcs. Later Romex still had the shellacked paper, or asphalted paper, but the wires have modern thermoplastic insulation. The outer wrapping of the cable can get brittle and very messy, but the insulation holds up okay. As long as Romex of that era isn't totally disintegrating, it's not an issue to panic over, as the thermoplastic insulation is durable.
If you see any aluminum wires in your breaker panel other than the service entrance or a heavy-gauge subfeed, have your electrician rewire the house ASAP. Aluminum wire for branch circuits is a house fire waiting to happen, even with "aluminum rated" outlets.
If you're going to do any major electrical work, go down to Town Hall and talk with the building inspector. They're usually quite friendly and helpful. Their job is to help you do things right and follow the codes. The codes are there to keep you from making mistakes others have already made, and to keep you from doing something foolish and unsafe. If you're polite and friendly, your inspector will probably be glad to sit with you for a while and give you pointers on how to do the job right.
Of course, it helps if you already know how to do it right. The National Electrical Code can be hard to track down; a lot of libraries don't seem to carry it, and those that do classify it as a reference work, so you can't borrow it. Luckily, thanks to a recent Supreme Court decision [gtwassociates.com], building codes which are enacted into law lose any copyright protection, so you can go ahead and photocopy away.
You may also find other helpful books. I'm particularly fond of Wiring Simplified [amazon.com], a book that covers most common household wiring tasks and includes Code references.
When sparks start shooting out of things, though... that's time to call the pros.
Some things you must not know. (Score:4, Informative)
The reasoning behind laws in regards to not removing your own meter would probably be economic since that would be how you would steal electricy.
One point of contention I have about home wiring is the type of electrical box used to house switches, outlets, and various other junctions of wires. I am curious if anyone else agrees or disagrees with my thoughts on this matter.
The contention I have is this. I think metal boxes are much safer than plastic boxes. My reasoning is as follows.
1. With a metal box which is properly attached to the safety ground you have a situation where a live wire coming loose inside the box and hitting the box will immediately trip a circuit breaker.
2. If the live wire does not come loose but only gets flakey and hot and starts to burn your metal box will not burn along with it. It will still trip the breaker when the wire has burned enough to break free and hit the side of the box.
3. It is obvious to me that plastic boxes will not trip a breaker if a wire gets loose inside them.
4. A plastic box with a hot wire will actually burn and help in the process of burning down your house.
5. I think the only reason electricians started using plastic boxes was because there were cheaper than metal boxes.
6 Saying a plastic box is better because it insulates you and the wires inside from grounding out against the box implies total ignorance of one of the the purposes of a safety ground. It also allows shoddy wiring to go unnoticed longer.
Those are my reasons, what do you think?
dzimmerm
Re:Just Walk Away (Score:3, Funny)
No, you plug it in slowly and run away. Quickly.
Re:4 words. (Score:3, Redundant)
This guy is out of his mind to try and do this himself. Hire the professional. If you do this yourself, the tools you would need to buy to do it safely are going to cost a fortune anyway. If you don't buy the right tools, there's no way you will do it safely.
Re:Duct Tape (Score:4, Funny)