NEC Unveils Methanol-Fueled Laptop 363
genericplacebo writes "Japanese computer giant NEC Corp. Monday revealed a prototype of a laptop computer that runs on a methanol fuel cell instead of a rechargeable battery, and said it will start selling it next year. NEC initially plans to introduce a computer with a fuel-cell system able to run for five consecutive hours on a single cartridge of methanol fuel, but also plans to make a PC within two years that can run continuously for as long as 40 hours."
Merger... (Score:5, Funny)
Well (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Well (Score:3, Informative)
but total weight including everything required to transform the power,etc. is 4.9lbs. so where usual batteries weigh 1 lbs. +/- 2 this one would weigh 5... so the ultrathin 4lbs. laptop weighs 9lbs.
Re:Well (Score:5, Insightful)
The issue I'm worried about is that the laptop/fuel cell industry will to do what printer manufacturers did for the printer. In other words, make the fuel cell hardware cheap and affordable and price-fix the actual fuel refill components as high as possible to maximize profits. The old razor blade pricing scheme.
From what I understand of fuel cells, besides requiring the fuel itself which is rather cheap, it requires a rather expensive (and no-doubt proprietary) catalyst component (platinum?) which sort of throws the "refill at home" idea out.
Maybe you could get 5x methanol refills before replacing the catalyst or something, but I'm waiting to see what the pricing of the fuel technology will be before jumping onboard.
N.
Re:Well (Score:5, Insightful)
As far as I understood, the whole advantage of fuel cell based laptops was you could simply open a spout and pour more fuel into it, like a camp stove. If, instead, you must buy proprietary cartridges like printers, I don't see why people would opt for a fuel cell based computer rather than a conventional rechargeable battery. In fact, the proprietary scheme you described above would be rather more like a laptop which runs on non-rechargeable batteries! I can't imagine anyone buying such a thing.
Re:Well (Score:4, Interesting)
Precisely correct. The open question is whether impurities in random cheap methanol sources will poison the catalyst, like running leaded gas through a car with a catalytic converter.
Re:Well (Score:3, Insightful)
Personally, I like methanol over a hydrogen-based economy (at this time), liquid fuel, very little of anything weird required to use it, and storage is no problem. Gas up your ride, gas up your box at the same pump!
Where did you get those numbers? (Score:2)
How about a little generalization? (Score:4, Insightful)
Don't drink and drive! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Don't drink and drive! (Score:3)
Yeah but look at all the great writers like Hemmingway that were constantly pissed. Your e-mails, blogs and IMs could now become so much more... expressive.
That's ethanol... (Score:3, Funny)
Methanol will just blank out the screen...
So what (Score:2, Insightful)
Fuel cells WILL be a big deal, but right now you're retarted to buy one: electricity just workd too well already
Re:So what (Score:5, Insightful)
Laptops seems like a great market entry point for fuel cells.
Re:So what (Score:5, Funny)
So when you go to Starbucks and order you're double espresso latte with extra whipped cream and sprinkles on top, you'll probably be asking for a 'meth pack' with that.
Re:So what (Score:3, Informative)
Thats like WalMart fighting sweat shops by only selling clothing "Made in the USA". Yea, some small Pacific islands are US holdings, even though sweat shops run amok there. But who cares as long as the gas your SUV sucks down isn
Re:So what (Score:2)
Ummm...yeah, exactly, right. Don't forget those bleached paperboard coffee cups they serve that coffee in either. Let's also not forget that methanol itself is somewhat harmful to the environment, either (although it's much mo
Re:So what (Score:5, Funny)
I bet you're fun at parties.
Re:So what (Score:2)
How about on airplanes? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:How about on airplanes? (Score:2)
Re:So what (Score:5, Insightful)
Now, all that aside, I'd rather have the fuel cell system. Let's assume that they weigh the same, and run for a similar time on one charge, like you suggest. With a methanol fuel cell, a replacement charge will weight, what, 100g, cost around a dollar or two, and be field recharageable. This means that I can carry enough fuel to last a day of use without falling over. To do that same trick with batteries, you'd have to carry 5 spare batteries, each costing, what, 50-75 dollars [0], and weigh the thick end of a kilogram each. Not only that, but spare batteries have an interenal discharge rate, meaning that they cannot be stored indefinitly (It's about a month for NiCd, less for NiMh, dunno about Li technologies).
Granted, if you break a methanol cartridge, then it's not pleasant stuff. Mind you, nethers the contents of your typical battery.
The trade off is then you can carry much more fuel, but you'll need to find a specialist to get more, vs the limited fuel and easy refilling for battery technologies.
Once the runtime of a single cartridge of methanol gets up, to me that's a no brainer. YMMV
[0] Off top of head, no actual idea how accurate that is - it's based of raw cells.
specialist refuelers (Score:4, Funny)
Re:So what (Score:5, Informative)
(MSDS sheet for MeOH.) [bu.edu]
Admittedly, I'd be happier if they got ethanol fuel cells working. It's much less toxic, and supplies are easier to find.
Re:So what (Score:3, Interesting)
Built like tanks, those old IBM machines.
Heat and efficiency (Score:2, Interesting)
Reading some information on various fuel cells [fuelcells.org], it mentions various types, the coolest being the Direct Methanol Fuel Cells (DMFC) which runs at about 120-190 degrees F (about 50-100 deg C) which would require their own heat problems, which are already a big deal with laptops. Aside from all the "what about on airplanes" questions, I'm wondering about how well the laptop will run at those temperatures. They'll have to swap out some components comming standard on laptops nowdays
Re:So what (Score:5, Funny)
Re:So what (Score:2)
Re:So what (Score:2)
Ever been on a plane ride where those holes in the walls don't seem to be anywhere near your seat?
Comment removed (Score:4, Funny)
Re:So what (Score:3, Funny)
Re:So what (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: yea... downsides though... (Score:2)
Fuel cells on the other hand
Re:So what (Score:3, Insightful)
Well, just think about the wildlife photographer, who uses his notebook to assess his digital photographs; or the "embedded reporter" in the middle of (whatever country Bush is going to invade next)... they sur
Re:Batteries? (Score:2)
Can somebody please explain to me why this is insightful?
Cost? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Cost? (Score:2)
More to the point, will your mates include your laptop in the next round?
Free as in methanol, anyone?
Re:Cost? (Score:4, Interesting)
That's because of methanol.
Methanol = industrial alcohol (poisonous)
Ethanol = grain alcohol (drinkable)
Gonna be awfully hard to use a laptop when you can't see!
=Smidge=
Re:Cost? (Score:2)
Besides, local laws permitting, anyone can make methanol at home as well with an appropriate small garden plot and a still.
As for cost: "The Methanex non-discounted US reference price for July 2003 is $263 per tonne (79.0 cents per
Let's see.... (Score:2)
Light humor follows (Score:4, Funny)
Fuel Cell = RIP off (Score:5, Insightful)
Laptop makers are looking for the high profit margins that ink jet printer manufacturers enjoy. How much will these full cell cartrages cost? Around $5 a pop? Thats absurd, wouldn't you rather recharge the fucking thing!
Yeah! (Score:4, Funny)
God damn them to hell for offering products to people. Bloody capitalist swine. We'll immolate them on a stack of their own fuel cells! Power to the people! Or not, in this case.
Re:Fuel Cell = RIP off (Score:5, Insightful)
James
Re:Fuel Cell = RIP off (Score:3, Insightful)
LiIon batteries are just as bad- limited lifetime (Score:5, Informative)
Guess what? Nobody ever talks about it, but Lithium Ion batteries have a VERY finite lifetime; a FEW(very few) hundred discharge-recharge cycles; every time you discharge the battery, and the more you discharge it- the more of the battery you permanently destroy.
Companies that make these Lithium Ion cells(no foolin', that square battery contains a whole bunch of cells that are almost exactly AA size) won't sell them to you, of course- why? Because if you overload them, they catch on fire pretty handily, so you have to be a "certified" "solution provider" lest you blow yourself up. Mind you, the battery companies could install thermal/current fuses in the batteries, but they don't want to, because it conveniently lets them control the market, and gives them an avenue of escape if a pack for some camcorder or digicam has serious problems- they can point the finger at that company.
So, even though Panasonic still makes the cell used by my Powerbook Lombard, and even though you cannot buy new Lombard/Pismo batteries(they're no longer made, period), I can't fix my lombard's battery.
Re:Fuel Cell = RIP off (Score:3, Informative)
No, it's really another way to provide power to people who can't always get it. Imagine the business traveller spending all day getting from one end to the country to the other. He can't recharge his laptop on the plane. He could bring an extra battery or two,
Not allowed on airplanes (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Not allowed on airplanes (Score:2)
Basically means that if you put a leaky one in your laptop and then take it out before (possibly even days before) you head off to the airport you may still get flagged as a terrorist and have a major problem on your hands real quick.
It really amazes me how some people will push an idea forward knowing full well how much possible chaos it will create for other "working" systems. And
Re:Not allowed on airplanes (Score:4, Informative)
Ob Homer (Score:5, Funny)
Kinda suicidal, don't you think? (Score:2)
Considering that this computer runs on methanol [yahoo.com] and not ethanol [howstuffworks.com], that would not be a particulary good idea.
Re:Kinda suicidal, don't you think? (Score:2)
"Never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line... "
Re:Kinda suicidal, don't you think? (Score:2)
No, haven't seen it. Any methanol-drinking in it?
Methanol? (Score:3, Interesting)
Leak or vent even a little of that onto/into the user and he could go blind.
Even WITHOUT surfing porn sites. B-(
Re:Methanol? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Methanol? (Score:2)
Re:Methanol? (Score:3, Interesting)
It will only adversly affect vision when consumed. Getting methanol on your hands has an unpleasent smell and leaves the skin feeling really yucky [0]. If you leave it there for prolonged times, then it can cross the skin, but I'm not convinced that's a significant danger in a consumer product (given that people will tend to go an wash it off should it get spilt).
Methanol/Ethanol solutions are available from my high street - it's not that dangerous.
In fact, I'd rate it about as dangrous as bo
Pull start boot? (Score:3, Funny)
From printer cartridges to fuel cells (Score:2, Insightful)
Will you only be allowed to buy your fuel cells from your laptop manufacturer for an overpriced ammount? And how long until they start emplacing mechanisms that ensure that your fuel cell can't be refilled outside of the factory? And worse yet, when will they start using the DMCA to enforce these policies?
Re:From printer cartridges to fuel cells (Score:2)
Yep. In the same way that batteries and AC power supplies are.
Is that a bad thing? Not necessarily. I mean I understand what you're saying, and I think your fears are justified. However, I wouldn't fret just yet. There's a well established alternative to fuel-cells that people'll be happy to revert to if these companies get greedy. Lithium ion batteries. The printing industry doesn't have this type of compe
Start lobbying Congress now... (Score:5, Insightful)
As it stands, even simple Bic lighters are prohibited and will be confiscated from all checked baggage... I can only imagine what they'd do with a methanol cartridge.
Re:Start lobbying Congress now... (Score:2)
Um... confiscate it too? What else is there to imagine? I suppose they could high-five each other, have everybody over for a methanol party, go blind because they never can remember if its ethanol or methanol that's safe to drink...
Laptop manufacturers might as well dream up a laptop powered by U-235 (single charge might last 500 yrs) as far as airport acceptability is concerned.
Re:Start lobbying Congress now... (Score:2)
I'm sure I could think of dozens, or hundreds, of ways to do mre damage with innocent items than with a Bic lighter. Doh.
Yeah, methanol fueled... (Score:2)
Does it include a roll-cage?
Well... (Score:2)
Let's say the average laptop battery lasts 4-5 hours, as given in a previous iBook example. So that's 40-50 hours.
How many folks ever need to be in front of a laptop for 40-50 hours?
Re:Well... (Score:3, Funny)
Welcome to Slashdot!
In the news ... (Score:2, Funny)
Finally (Score:5, Insightful)
Finally (Score:2)
Smelly laptops for smelly geeks.
If only they'd make them run on methane! (Score:3, Funny)
Maybe for the army (Score:2)
Methanol 101 (Score:5, Informative)
Methanol is one of a number of fuels that could substitute for gasoline or diesel fuel in passenger cars, light trucks, and heavy-duty trucks and buses.
It's physical and chemical characteristics result in several inherent advantages as an automotive (or laptop)
Emissions from methanol engines/laptops are low in reactive hydrocarbons (which form smog) and in toxic compounds. Methanol-fueled trucks and buses emit almost no particulate matter (which cause smoke and odor, and can also be carcinogenic), and much less nitrogen oxides than their diesel-fueled counterparts.
It can be manufactured from a variety of carbon-based feedstocks such as natural gas, coal, and biomass (e.g., wood). Use of methanol would diversify the country's fuel supply and reduce its dependence on imported petroleum.
Methanol is much less flammable than gasoline and results in less severe fires when it does ignite.
It also is a high-octane fuel that offers excellent acceleration and vehicle power.
With economies of scale, methanol could be produced, distributed, and sold to consumers at prices competitive with gasoline.
Because of its outstanding performance and fire safety characteristics, methanol is the only fuel used in Indianapolis-type race cars. Following a series of methanol vehicle development and demonstration programs throughout the 1980's, a limited number of methanol passenger cars and buses are now commercially available. There are approximately 14,000 methanol passenger cars in use, mostly in Federal and private fleets, and about 400 methanol buses in daily operation, mostly in California.
Methanol is used in a number of consumer products, including paint strippers, duplicator fluid, model airplane fuel, and dry gas. Most windshield washer fluids are 50 percent methanol.
High-octane fuel != C8H18 (Score:4, Informative)
The octane rating of a fuel is what most people are familiar with, but there seems to be a lot of confusion surrounding it. In simple terms the octane number you see at the pump is the average of two octane numbers; the Research Octane Number (RON) and the Motor Octane Number (MON) or (RON + MON) / 2. This final octane number is sometimes referred to as the Anti Knock Index or AKI. This pump octane number is a measure of the anti- knock characteristics of a given fuel.
MON and RON are determined by standardized ASTM laboratory tests. The details of the tests are not as important as what they mean in terms of performance. Low to medium-speed knock characteristics are determined by the Research (RON) method, while high-speed and partial throttle heavy load knock characteristics are determined by the Motor (MON) method. MON testing is conducted under more stringent conditions with the timing on the test engine advanced and run with a higher inlet air temperature, so the MON number tends to be lower but also more valid for high-performance applications. There are a number of more valid tests that have been developed to determine the anti-knock characteristics of fuels used in high performance engines, but the aren't in general use at this point so we are stuck with the old reliable pump octane number.
This is good news... (Score:2, Informative)
I'm always going to a little coffee shop where the only power outlet is all the way in the back, so I can't recharge my battery. Now I have a laptop that lasts for about 4 hours between charges, but I can't always show up there with a fully charged battery. Why do I keep going there? Somebody upstai
An application does exist! (Score:4, Interesting)
Hello military and 3rd world applications. I can see a brand new market -- deploy some these bad boys, set up a wireless access point, and you have an instant internet community with no other power infrastructure.
This is another step in getting computing power to the third world and closing the digital divide.
Even better (Score:2)
Of course, if the catalyst isn't capable of being "cleaned" or efficiently replaced then it's all just so much more useless crap...
The devil is in the details (Score:2)
How much space does the fuel cartridge take up compared with an average laptop battery? How much does the fuel cartridge weigh compared with an average laptop battery? How much is the initial fuel cell cost compared with an average laptop battery? How much is the i
Perfect name... (Score:5, Funny)
Bender.
Why Methanol??? (Score:4, Interesting)
Sweet machines! (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
what is the target market? (Score:2)
Little old meths drinker, me. (Score:2)
By-products (Score:2)
I don't really mind the CO2, but water and more heat with my laptop? I dunno....
Of course I'm guessing about the reaction and leftovers. Can someone tell me if I'm right or wrong?
pasted from www.fuelcelltoday.com (Score:5, Informative)
The direct methanol fuel cell is a variant of the PEM fuel cellwhich uses methanol directly without prior reforming. The methanol is converted to carbon dioxide and hydrogen at the anode. The hydrogen then goes on to react with oxygen as in a standard PEM fuel cell.
Anode Reaction: CH3OH+ H2OCO2 + 6H+ + 6e-
Cathode Reaction: 3/2O2 + 6H+ + 6e- 3H2O
Cell Reaction: CH3OH+ 3/2O2CO2 + 2H2O
These cells are expected to operate at around 120C, which is slightly higher than the standard PEM fuel cell, and give efficiencies of around 40 per cent. One drawback is that the low temperature conversion of methanol to hydrogen and carbon dioxide needs a larger quantity of platinum catalyst than in conventional PEM cells. This increased cost is, however, expected to be more than outweighed by the convenience of using liquid fuel and the ability to function without a reforming unit. The technology behind direct methanol fuel cells is still in the early stages of development but it has been successfully demonstrated powering mobile phones and laptop computers, potential target end uses in future years.
Explosion or Electrocution - take your pick... (Score:2)
The reason I ask is - a small leak, and a spark, and you've got more to worry about than spilling the expresso on the keyboard.
Until its proven (and I don't see people combusting at the local Starbucks), I will have a fallback plan:
1. Get one of those heavy duty backup storage batteries used to jumpstart automobiles (these have 'cigarette lighter' style female plugs on them).
2
Phew... (Score:2)
If it were fueled by ethanol I'd always come back to the two choices
How much do you expect methanol to cost? (Score:5, Interesting)
Methanol is *extremely* cheap to make. We are talking about buying a gallon or two for less than a dollar. Yes, it is flammable but not like gasoline. There isn't a risk of explosion. Do you ever worry about your lighter exploding in your pocket? Yes, its poisonous but only if you drink it. Ever drink glass cleaner or windshield wiper fluid? Didn't think so. Its sort of like that. Its much worse to drink gasoline (we use it all the time in cars and how many people are poisoned by that?) and opening a laptop Lithium-ion or Nicad battery and eating the contents is far worse.
I'm surprised at how happy people are with laptop batter performance these days. You are lucky to get 4 hours, especially if the battery is old. YOu can get more, but the batteries get very heavy! Methanol, on the other hand, is quite light.
Methane Power! (Score:3, Funny)
Methyl alcohol (Score:5, Informative)
Methanol is well absorbed from the gastrointestinal tract mucosa as well as through the skin and lungs. Both inhalation and transdermal exposure can result in toxicity. The exact lethal dose for a human is not known. Doses as low as 25 cc of 40% methanol have been reported as causing toxicity. In other cases doses up to 500 cc have occurred with no side effects. Most sources consider the minimal lethal dose to be around 100 cc (1 g/kg). Poisoning with methanol may be accidental or intentional. There have been epidemics of methanol toxicity in cases where illicit whiskey has been sold to large populations or when the less expensive methanol was substituted for ethanol in drinks.
Once methanol is absorbed it is rapidly distributed in the body water with peak blood levels occurring in about 30 to 90 minutes after exposure. If ethanol is not present 2-5% of the methanol is excreted unchanged by the kidneys and a small amount is eliminated by the lungs. At low blood levels the half-life of methanol is 2-3 hours. Once the blood levels rise above 300 mg/dl, the enzymes that metabolize methanol become saturated and the elimination half-life increases to 27 hours. When this happens a greater amount of the methanol is eliminated unchanged by the lungs and the kidneys. During therapy with ethanol the half-life of methanol becomes 30-52 hours.
Methanol itself may cause inebriation but by itself in almost completely non-toxic. The methanol is metabolized by alcohol dehydrogenase to formaldehyde and then to formic acid. Clinical findings correlate better with formic acid levels than with methanol levels. It is these two metabolites that cause toxicity with formic acid being more responsible. It is the formic acid that causes the profound metabolic acidosis that is typical of methanol poisoning. The overall mortality of methanol poisoning is approximately 20% and among survivors the rate of permanent visual impairment is 20-25%.
Re:am i stupid? (Score:2)
Re:am i stupid? (Score:2)
Re:That's kind of wierd. (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Not only crash... (Score:2)
Re:I can't wait... (Score:2)
Re:I can't wait... (Score:2)
Re:Mooooo...... (Score:2)
To be really mobile, laptop owner would have to be vegeterian. For producing good quality methan, (S)he would also need to apply the following technique when eating:
1] chew
2] swallow
3] repeat (yeah, sucks, i know)
and to keep farthing all-day-long.
Re:Mooooo...... (Score:2)
You: Come on boy! Giddyup! We're not going anywhere!
Cow: Moooooo!
And try to get your cow past an airport checkpoint! I'll stick with methanol...
Re:7-10 years out, minimum... (Score:4, Insightful)
And how long before airlines say ...
It's already been approved by the FAA (read previous posts).
How many hours does your system need to run for this inconvenience level to be worth it?
It's intended for energy intensive systems like laptops, cell phones, mobile radios, cars, etc.
Currently, you can get several hours of battery life off a system that you can recharge using outlets that are spaced roughly ten feet apart across the entire industrialized world.
You don't get outside much do you? They're not 10 feet apart outside your office. Go check.