LCD Price Fixing? 470
bilsaysthis asks: "Bill Kearney poses a really interesting question, one which I've been puzzled by for a while too: 'What's with prices on LCD displays? On one hand a laptop can be had with UXGA resolution display for $1000. Try buying that display alone and you'll find it's also around $1000. Then there's how much they're gouging for the same resolution in an LCD television.'" Sadly enough, as much as I want one of these for my wall, the market is willing to bear these prices. How long will it be before this hardware becomes affordable?
Price Will Come Down... (Score:3, Insightful)
;)
Re:Naturally it IS price fixing (Score:5, Interesting)
I don't know if that is indeed the reason or not.. but it's something to think about.
In capitalism any one can cut prices and drive down the cost of a product. If coke started selling 12packs for $2.00 what would pepsi do? They would have to compete to survive. Of course Coke can't do that cause they will lose money. I suspect the same is the case with LCDs.
Re:Naturally it IS price fixing (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not sure you understand- price fixing [ansme.com] is *exactly* the situation as described. You see, when manufacturers fix prices, all the manufacturers collude to set prices far above fair market value. In the modern world, they feel they can get away with it because if someone tries to undercut them they can revoke licenses and sue for patent infringement.
The point he's making is that this is a corruption of capitalism, and that the situation you're describing- lowered prices- is not occurring because of illegal collusion among competitors. This is encouraged in Japan (for an excellent fictional discussion of the topic, see Michael Crichton's novel "Rising Sun"), but frowned on in the United States. Unfortunately, stupid patent laws and unenforced hole-filled antitrust laws are what make this possible.
Re:Naturally it IS price fixing (Score:3, Informative)
I've bought plenty of 12-packs of Diet Coke for $1.99. I consider anything below $2.50 to be a good sale price for a 12-pack. I do suspect that the store is actually paying more that $2 for the product and using it as a loss leader.
What I notice is that the really good deals at one store tend to alternate between Coke and Pepsi. One week Coke will
Re:Naturally it IS price fixing (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Naturally it IS price fixing (Score:5, Informative)
In 1992/94 I worked for Philips in the Netherlands to build the first (and last
At that time, Philips (world leader in CRTs and TVs) saw it as a threat that the possible successor of this product (LCD's) was built nowhere in the Western World. However, three years later they solved this in a differnt way by making an alliance with LG.
But, the important part is that no US manufacturer (Motorola, Intel, Zenith, RCA, etc.) has started LCD plants, and no European company (Siemens, Thompson, etc.) has done it either. That's asking for being dependent on only a very small group of companies, mainly in South Korea and Japan, that can very easy make a deal and keep prices up.
So, it's easy to say: We need competition. Someone must start that competition, even when you are the David against Goliath. Same is true with the MS domination of this world. Yes, it keeps the prices up, but you (the custumer) asked for it when you swapped your WordPerfect for Word4Windows.
So, when all that has happened, don't complain later!!!
Mirror :( (Score:3, Informative)
here, once it's slashdotted. [zachlipton.com]
Re:Mirror :( (Score:5, Funny)
Fast Dirty Mirror of the Page in Question (Score:4, Informative)
LCD price fixing?
What's with prices on LCD displays?
On one hand a laptop can be had with UXGA resolution display for $1000. Try buying that display alone and you'll find it's also around $1000. Then there's how much they're gouging for the same resolution in an LCD television.
There are, of course, manufacturing yield issues with LCDs. The bigger you make them, the harder it becomes to make one free from defects. But look at the price differentials between OEM panels in laptops vs that of standalone monitors. The disparity is quite wide. Balancing (subsidizing) one market on the backs of another is not a new thing. But it seems a reach to use that as justification for the LCD montior/TV prices.
So what's going on here? Are the monitor manufacturers pulling a fast one here? Are they gouging consumers? And why are they priced so similarly across the board?
# | Comments (3) | TrackBack (0) | 03:47 PM
Comments (scroll down to see all 3 comments...)
Hope it's okay but I submitted this to
Posted by: BillSaysThis on March 30, 2003 07:04 PM
It's been posted! I'm a slashdot subscriber and I see that this story has been posted, it will be up probably within 20 minutes
Posted by: Zach on March 31, 2003 08:35 PM
Brace yourself, here it comes. Its on slashdot, or will be in a few minutes. Hope you've paid you bandwidth bill!
Actually, as I am going to say on slashdot, a lot of it has to do with supply vs demand. There are a LOT of laptops sold, but comparitvily, not many standalone LCD screens. It does require some more work to make a LCD screen accept VGA or RCA input.
Posted by: Zaffle on March 31, 2003 08:39 PM
Re:Fast Dirty Mirror of the Page in Question (Score:4, Informative)
Low volume is not the issue here. My guess is price gouging is running rampart, especially on LCD TVs...
P.S. Anyone out there know what the response times are on OLEDs? How do they compare to LCDs?
(This is docrobot posting, for some insane reason, I can't log into
Re:Fast Dirty Mirror of the Page in Question (Score:2)
Then again, I think the articles I saw said 2004, not 2006. I'm betting by 2006 LCDs will be cheaper than CRTs and absolutely dominate the market.
How long... (Score:4, Funny)
The real question is, how much longer until my eBay scam pays off and I can afford one no matter what the price.
Even if I do have to move suddenly to Vermont.
Maybe.... (Score:4, Funny)
As I've said before... (Score:5, Interesting)
Three requirements:
- Chassis spec
- DC power supply spec
- LCD spec
It sparked in my mind when I broke the LCD on my thinkpad... IBM wanted $900 to fix it but I was able to disassemble one of their desktop models and get the component that I required for less than $300...
Sheesh...
But can you imagine an open laptop? Neon and clear shit for days... Case modding to the extreme!
Re:As I've said before... (Score:2, Informative)
Yes. Big, bulky, heavy, ugly, power-hungry, hot as hell, slower than other "non-open" competitors and still with few selections for parts, maybe slightly more than proprietary designs.
An open laptop is an often brought up idea and it is idiotic.
You have no idea what it takes to design a good laptop.
Re:As I've said before... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:As I've said before... (Score:5, Funny)
But can you imagine an open laptop? Neon and clear shit for days... Case modding to the extreme!
Indeed, I can imagine ... and what's the point? Most of the cool casemods take up power. With neon tubes everywhere, you would probably cut your battery life by a factor of two or three, which would defeat most of the point of getting a laptop.
I'm reminded of an acquaintance of mine from high school, who bought a Geo Metro and added so many car mods (ground effect, huge stereo, etc.) that his alternator couldn't keep up. He bought a new alternator, which destroyed the car's fuel economy, which is basically the only reason to buy a Metro.
Then again, this is probably the wrong crowd to ask "Why get a new gadget?".
Re:As I've said before... (Score:3, Insightful)
Well, in this case it doesn't sound like you're using the "fun" part of your imagination. People make low-rider bicycles for crying out loud. People will mod anything they can because it's a chance at practical application of their imagination. To many that's "fun." So as to your question about the point being, the point is to have fun trying it.
Not to mention, not just use imagination in some kind of applicable way, but actually create something new for th
Laptop screens selling at a loss? (Score:4, Insightful)
Just a random guess.
Re:Laptop screens selling at a loss? (Score:2)
Re:Laptop screens selling at a loss? (Score:5, Informative)
Strangely though, the ghosting was unnoticeable with movies, but here another annoyance came up: in a dark room, playing a dark movie (e.g. Alien), the supposedly black bars on the top and at the bottom of the screen are annoyingly bright, so bright that it's really distracting. Yes, I tested all kinds of different monitor settings, and I know that this is a problem all LCDs have, but it still sucks.
I'm a bit baffled, as this LCD has a high-class PVA panel and is supposedly one of the best 17" LCDs currently available. The picture quality is really great, but there are some big drawbacks.
Buy a laptop and separate the base. (Score:5, Funny)
Of course, you do then need to make the interface to connect the flat panel to something useful, but thats where the fun comes into it
Re: Inferface?? (Score:5, Interesting)
1) the parameteres ain't easy to find publically documented
2) LVDS controllers for regular PCs (like an Nvidia card with an LVDS interface) are few, far between and not very cheap
I would desperately like to be proven wrong on this - I'd especially like to find a dvi2lvds box for a reasonable price that I could use with any of the thousand or so bare laptop LCD screens that are offered on ebay every day...
Old answer I'm affraid (Score:5, Interesting)
A lot of it has to do with the old story of supply and demand. There is a very large call for LCDs for laptops, and the laptop manufacturers get them at almost cost, then intergrate them into the laptops.
However, there isn't much (comparitivly) demand for LCD computer screens, or even worse, TV screens.
When I was in singapore a few years ago, RCA input LCD screens weren't that bad a price, but the problem is that price hasn't drop that much.
It does take some more work to make a LCD screen take VGA or RCA inputs, so there is the cost the LCD is brought at (a lot more than the laptop manufacturers buy them at), and then the intergration of circuits to accept VGA or RCA input.
Re:Old answer I'm affraid (Score:2, Insightful)
Prices rise as demand increases relative to supply and fall as demand decreases. So by that logic LCD computer screens should be cheaper and laptop displays more expensive.
Re:Old answer I'm affraid (Score:5, Informative)
That's not how I remember my economics. You have your basic supply/demand curve, with price on the Y axis, and units on the X. As price goes up, more units can be supplied, so the supply curve has an increasing slope. Conversely, there is more demand as price drops (units become more affordable). In other words, the demand curve has a decreasing slope. In ascii art (please let this look decent ...):
Price is always determined by the demand curve, with the supply curve denoting how many units can be built at a given price. If the price is high, the demand is low, and although many units can be supplied at that price, that's only theoretical -- nobody's buying, so there's no money to manufacture those units. There are always the economincally-enabled few that can afford anything at any price, and the bleeding-edge early adopters that will pay a premium for being the first on the block, but most people won't buy until the price has dropped. When the two cross, you're at the optimum price (for a non-monopolistic competitive market). After that point, more units can't be supplied because the sales won't cover costs, and before that point fewer people will buy because the price is too high. This is where you get into loss-leader (selling to the right of the optimum point, below cost, to generate more demand) and monopoly (selling to the left of the optimum point, because nobody can compete with you to keep your prices down -- there's a point where the price is high enough to allow others into the market, but so long as the monopoly keeps the price below that point, it's got the market to itself).Now, what the original poster was suggesting (I believe -- and if not, it's what I'm suggesting) is that laptop LCDs are being sold at a price on the demand curve to the right of the optimum point (lower price), but the manufacturers can afford to do so by selling non-laptop LCDs (desktops, TVs) at a price on the demand curve to the left of the optimum point. If things are ideal, the merged graph should come out with the combined demand and supply crossing properly at the averaged price. I doubt that's the case. It's likely that the price is higher than that, but it shouldn't be by much -- if it were, then competitors would lower their prices to gain more marketshare.
And just to CMA, it's been 3-ish years since I've had an economics course, so my analysis may be off, but my graph (ugly as it is) should be correct for a baseline S/D graph.
Re:Old answer I'm affraid (Score:3)
Re:Old answer I'm affraid (Score:5, Interesting)
While this is true, it is not reflected in the real world price of an LCD display. The Digital flat panels (DFP's) which have NO analog converter always cost more than a comparable analog flat panel!
That analog display costs more to manufacturer since it requires the analog-digital convertor, but only high-end machines and enthusiasts will opt for the more elegant DFP - and thus are more willing to pay a higher price for what they percieve as a "better" solution.
Just my two cents.
Re:Old answer I'm affraid (Score:5, Informative)
I seriously doubt that the two items under question @ $1000 aren't going to have the same LCD part inside them.
LCDs are digital. Adding in circuitry to go analog->digital (VGA, with ALL the bizarro resolutions that it implies) or even traditional external DVI (with it's ability to drive long cable runs, unlike the typical short runs required inide a laptop) costs money.
Implementing straight VGA is kinda tricky because the conversion has to scale the signal up to the LCD's native resolution on-the-fly. With DVI (any form) the video chipset can handle this duty (and usually does a pretty good job of it), with VGA the entire onus is on this piece of hardware. Install a cheap piece of hardware and that expensive screen looks like crap - good luck selling them.
'course this is just my opinion, and probably an outdated one at that.
Where's the problem? (Score:5, Funny)
Solution: Buy a laptop, nail it to the wall, and watch TV!
Bulk Purchasing. (Score:3, Insightful)
Consider how many LCD's that IBM buys for their ThinkPads, compared to mom and pop.
When you think about it like that, we should consider ourselves lucky that our LCD's dont cost more than they already do.
Market equilibrium (Score:2, Informative)
But seriously, prices are dropping. I just got a Viewsonic VX900 19 inch LCD monitor for $723 (including taxes) at BestBuys. Of course, I took advantage of their 10% off deal + $100 rebate.
It's not really price fixing (Score:3, Informative)
It's not really price-fixing proper, just basic economics.
Re:It's not really price fixing (Score:2)
This is Slashdot. Anything that involves economics turns into a conspiracy theory, DMCA violation, or PATRIOT act.
Re:It's not really price fixing....not really (Score:5, Informative)
Prices are being somewhat fixed as the LCD industry is "getting their commodity while they can" much as the memory industry did years ago. The memory industry has learned that volume is the better equation, thus, the low memory prices. OLEDs will change this because they are much cheaper to produce, much brighter and much thinner. Kodak already has OLEDs with Palm soon to follow in a new color Zire from ramblings on the net as well as Apple computer for a new device yet to be announced.
From my days in Sales (Score:5, Informative)
This was 1995, and the answer comes from a sales guy, so YMMV.
Re:From my days in Sales (Score:2)
Problem (Score:2)
Re:Problem (Score:2)
Power costs money and LCD's use less (they also last longer than CRT's in general). For the general employee a 15" LCD for $250 is more cost effective than a 17" CRT (and probably more desirable to the employee). Depending on useage and power costs it'll pay for the delta in cost bet
What the Market Will Pay (Score:2, Insightful)
It's all about the numbers... (Score:5, Insightful)
Items that don't sell well in "retail" channels get a much higher mark-up to make up for the small volume. The same item in lots of 1000 or more over and over again will sell dirt cheap. Ever noticed the price per 1000 of your favorite cpu when it comes out?
It's a bit of a catch-22. When customers buy more via retail channels, the prices will come down. When the prices come down, customers will buy more...
Eventually the retailers will get there trying to compete with each other, but with "most" (me and you not among them) customers are perfectly happy with what's out there now, there isn't enough demand for a big retailer to start stocking larger quantities and begin the price death spiral we've grown to know and love about computer parts.
Whatever keeps the shareholders happy (Score:2)
As much as I would like to complain. . . (Score:4, Informative)
I'll attest to that (Score:2)
the desktop market has tons of UXGA and WUXGA (1920x1200) screens. I can think of three or four off the top of my head.
I think the thing is that the demand isn't so high - because not everybody wants the huge space and people with bad eyes (read "anybody remotely aged") would rather sit at 1280x1024.
I think "getting a laptop with UXGA for under 1000 is a giant lie, though. find one and I will buy it.
Other ways the market should be working (Score:5, Insightful)
Why aren't the 240T's with, say, eight dead pixels sold at a different price? I understand the issues with the manufacturing of these displays, that if they were to reject all but those without dead pixels the cost would be prohibitively expensive, but why can't they just count the number of dead pixels and set a price accordingly.
Monitors are important; I end up looking at the thing most of the day for work and for play, I am willing to pay a premium for a very fine display. But to risk getting one with a bunch of dead pixels right in the middle of the screen, I mean, that would just suck really, really bad.
Its a combo of demand & price fixing ... (Score:2)
Like it says in the original article, everyone would like to have one of these sleek and "sexy" displays, which means there is a HUGE demand for them. Thus, the companies producing them want to see how long they can keep the prices up while emptying their inventories. After all, they need to cover all of their R&D costs, plus rake in the profits while they still can.
Re:Its a combo of demand & price fixing ... (Score:2)
At first scsi was about %20 more then ide when consumers and all macintoshes used it by default. Then as only bussinesses used it the price skyrocketed while the capacity of over the counter drives at compusa fell.
Now the cheapest 20-gig drive is $1200.
Also i want to to point out that scsi and ide drives are %90 identical! The only difference is the electronic interface.
As long as some people need them and this market has money the price will rema
Re:Its a combo of demand & price fixing ... (Score:2)
Now the cheapest [scsi] 20-gig drive is $1200.
Don't you mean $120? That's the low end for 36GB scsi.
Numbers Way Off (Score:5, Informative)
How long has it been since you examined prices on LCD displays?? A 15" Samsung SyncMaster 152B can be had for roughly $450US, and I doubt your $1000 notebook has a screen this good. (And I see various 17" models price at $600)
Re:Numbers Way Off (Score:2)
I was fortunate to take advantage of a Dell offer recently with the purchase of a new system...I got their 18.1" model for $370 (thanks to a $200 discount with system purchase).
I'm sure part of that is offset by the profit on the system, but still...one heck of a deal. And the thing is GORGEOUS, even compared to my 19" Trinitron.
Re:Numbers Way Off (Score:2)
I think 17" qualifies as UXGA (I think 1280x1024), which of course, can be had for $500. I am pretty sure one can get a laptop with 1400something x 1000 screen for $1000. Not exactly an apples comparison but the laptop has a better resolution screen than what you can find as a stand-alone monitor for $1000.
Different technology? (Score:3, Interesting)
D/A A/D Problem (Score:4, Informative)
I've been researching info regarding using laptop LCDs with a PC, because I want to build a portable PC. One thing I discovered is that the connector on your monitor is essentially analog, whereas the signal in the video card is digital. A laptop can drive the digitial display directly with a digital signal, using LVDS (Low Voltage Differential Signaling) or a similar proprietary standard. Stand-alone LCD monitors take an anlog signal from your PC and convert it to digital. Not only do you have the cost of D/A and A/D conversion, you also have power consumption associated with this.
The prices on the "controllers" that allow you to drive an LCD from a standard VGA connector are around $200 as separate items, mostly because they are low demand specialty items. Such controllers are integrated into stand-alone monitors, and economies of scale keep them from adding too much to the bottom line.
So, while there is some justification for the increased cost of stand-alone displays, I tend to agree that the controller, case, and associated parts don't explain the entire difference.
I'm less bothered by the prices, and more bothered by the fact that low-power technology is simply not available. For that matter, the entire laptop industry is full of artificial controls. However, it's encouraging to note that you can at least get laptop form-factor hard drives. Given time, I think some of the other tight controls will break down too, and we will start to see "screwdriver shops" building laptops from commodity parts. I eagerly anticipate the day that happens, as much as every incumbent laptop maker dreads it.
DVI Solution (Score:2)
Comparison not apples vs. oranges (Score:2, Informative)
Also keep in mind ... (Score:3, Insightful)
... that the people that produce and distribute LCDs are the same people that sell CRTs
As soon as the majority of CRTs that are already produced are sold, the prices on LCDs will drop
Just a couple more cents of mine
Its fixed (Score:2)
It just means I won't buy one. No biggie. Well, I won't buy two...
Re:Its fixed (Score:2)
Actually automotive LCD are NOT expensive at all. You just need to know where to look. Here [partsexpress.com] is a good start. You can assemble a two monitor system in headrests (or one large monitor on ceiling) with a DVD/MP3 player and audio through existing stereo for under $500 if you install it yourself. Skip the dedicated DVD/mp3 player, hook up a Xbox or PS2 instead with a $30 power invertor and have a complete DVD/Game system for roughly the same
Why Be Square (Score:2)
Seriously, now that LCD displays are becomming the norm and CRT's seem to be on the out, why do these things have to be square?
I wonder if we'll soon see LCD or similar displays start to conform to the other shapes we see in our world. I know I saw one in a car that had nothing but nice curves, except for the sharp angles of the LCD and it looked so out of place.
These numbers don't add up.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Further, it's not an apples and apples comparison. The laptop vendors buy wholesale, in comparatively huge volumes, lots of different sizes all at once, and likely committing to purchase volumes over time. IMHO those combine to drive the price way below what the average LCD monitor guy is selling.
Come to think of it, something similar is going on with memory, processor and disk prices. Take your average laptop, price those components separately, and I'll be you find something that seems to be price gouging for all of them.
Walmart? (Score:5, Interesting)
It has an analog VGA connector (a good thing for me; most of my PCs lack digital output), a 160-degree viewing angle (I didn't think that was even possible -- 180 would be viewing completely from the side), 1280x1024 native resolution, and does a great job resampling other resolutions. I can't prove it yet, but I am pretty sure it uses subpixel rendering when resizing lower resolutions.
So all the things I didn't like about LCDs a couple years ago -- limited viewing angle, bad resampling, digital-only connector, small size, and of course price -- are solved with this Walmart cheapo.
I'm sure it won't last all that long, but for the price, it's really nice, easy on the eyes, and much sharper than my last monitor (an aging Trinitron).
So, at one month old, mine has convinced me to never go back to a CRT.
Oh, and in games or full-screen video it rocks. You still only get 60 actual refreshes a second, but that's more than enough (and unlike a CRT the light is constant anyway). Fast motion can be a tiny bit blurry, but nothing like my crappy Compaq laptop... and in games, the blur actually looks better in my opinion -- more realistic (or I'm just goofy)...
Re:Walmart? (Score:3, Insightful)
My Presario cost me $1500 in 2000, and its display is horrible. Resampling is simple pixel-doubling, which is impossible to read. Viewing angle is on the order of 15-degrees (possibly exagerated, but it's pretty bad). Backlight never tur
Re:Walmart? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Walmart? (Score:2)
Size/Price relationships (Score:2)
When screens are produced, there is a certain risk that a pixel is bad and that the screen must be discarded. If each pixel has an equal probability of being bad, then the probability that at least one pixel on the screen is bad grows exponentially with the size of the screen.
If the price of the screens being sold must cover the costs of all those being discarded tha
Because... (Score:3, Insightful)
What's that I hear? It's the redundant and troll mods. Oh, well, I've had good karma for too long.
Analog/Digital Converters (Score:3, Informative)
I don't know if this effects the big-number LCD manufacturers, but it is a good reason. There is now more support for all-digital video cards, but it would be market suicide to become known as "that LCD manufacturer whose products aren't compatible with any of our old systems".
What about the viewing angle? (Score:2)
Then again, my laptop is a few years old, and it's possible that disparity is much smaller now. Does anybody have a laptop and an LCD monitor roughly the same age that can confirm this?
prices will become "affordable"... (Score:2)
If the monitor costs $300 to manufacture, and the maker sells 1000 at $500 each, he earns $200,000. If he sells 10000 at $359 each, he will earn at least $590,000. I say at least, because at some point he is going to encounter a situation where the next one he sells costs less than $300, perhaps because he had to disca
Isn't there a tarrif on lcd screens? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Isn't there a tarrif on lcd screens? (Score:3, Informative)
It was established in 1991, removed in 1993...and it applied only to components, not finished products, if I read it correctly:
http://www.wtec.org/loyola/displays/c2_s1.htm
Laptop/TV/LCD (Score:2)
TV's are another issue. People aren't willing to spend that kind of money for a small TV. If you are willing to spend $700 y
Different classes of screens (Score:5, Informative)
* Their viewing angle is usually a lot worse
* Their contrast ratio and brightness is usually worse
* They're smaller by at least an inch or two
* Their response times are generally a lot slower
Capitalism (Score:3, Funny)
I'm casting my vote by not paying that high of a price. Just wait a little... It'll come down.
About time (Score:5, Interesting)
I have a 19" CRT at home and a 21" at work, and this LCD beats both of them for quality, so i looked around to try and buy one. It literally did not exist -- you can but 19" LCDs with 1280x1024 (I suppose some people enjoy large pixels) but trying to buy one of these beautiful small LCDs was impossible. IBM doesn't sell them, nobody sells them.
I'm totally baffled by this. We would love to buy these LCDs for our desktops if we could get them for $1,000+ but as it is we keep these huge 21" 75 pound monitors on peoples desks, and most of those are run at 1280x1024 to stay readable.
I'm actually thinking about buying a cheap IBM and ripping it apart if I can get the screen cabling to go to the digital out on a GeForce card.
Where you getting your prices at? (Score:3, Informative)
Samsung SyncMaster 171 S - Flat panel display - TFT - 17" - 1280 x 1024 - 0.26 mm [buy.com] $445.99
Samsung SyncMaster 151 S - Flat panel display - TFT - 15" - 1024 x 768 - 0.30 mm [buy.com] $294.99
That was in a very quick search (browsing current deals) at buy.com. Sheesh, it ain't that bad.
Re:Where you getting your prices at? (Score:3, Informative)
2) Orthogonal (usually) means "perpendicular." You're talking about "square pixels," and you've got it reversed. On a standard 4:3 ratio monitor, 1280x1024 is non-square (5:4), while 1600x1200 is square (4:3).
3) "desktop space" has nothing to do with resolution, if the OS is well-designed (which even XP passes for at times). A 15" 1600x1200 screen allows superb quality text, while the
Quality control (Score:5, Insightful)
Prices are set by demand... (Score:2, Insightful)
I'm always shocked when I hear complaints like this. Doesn't any school teach even basic economics anymore?! Why are such simple concepts so confusing for so many people?!
This is why HDTV will never happen in 2006 (Score:3, Insightful)
Not a fair comparison (Score:5, Interesting)
Desktop LCDs are made to have a very high brightness and high contrast ratio. Laptop LCDs are made for low power consumption, and thus don't need as powerful lighting units.
Desktop LCDs are built to have a very wide viewing angle. This uses some fancy technology and manufacturing processes that are pretty expensive to accomplish this task. Laptop LCDs are made on purpose to have a narrow viewing angle so the guy next to you on the airplan can't see your screen. A narrow viewing angle makes the LCD's requirements much cheaper to achieve.
The SDRAM Effetct (Score:4, Interesting)
All I can see is that LCD producers are afraid of the price war that we have seen sometime ago among the SDRAM producers. I remember to read about the fear of some producers get out of buissines due to the small profit ranges.
What could be better? A price war? Or avoiding producers going out of bussiness?
Example of price vs cost (Score:4, Informative)
For this 18" panel retail is $599, the university's price is $480, and cost is in the neighborhood of $375. About a 60% retail markup.
In comparison, a 19" CRT retails for $249, discounted is $211, and cost is around $205. About a 20% markup.
I don't expect the huge markup to end anytime soon, everyone is picking them up like hotcakes regardless.
Re:Example of price vs cost (Score:3, Informative)
$G
Get real (Score:5, Interesting)
We all know that an automobile, in parts, is worth more than what you pay for a complete car off the lot. Try pricing the entire car, part by part, over the part's dept. counter, and then go to 3rd party suppliers, and watch how prices fluctuate. It is easy to imagine fixing if you don't understand how the market works.
Nothing's fixed, beyond the normal markets forces (supply/demand) causing prices to level for certain products, etc.
just a thought (Score:3, Insightful)
Another thing to think about, though, is the vast quantities that laptop manufacturers purchase in order to keep the prices down. It's kinda like Windows. A bundled version probably cost 2/3 what a shelf copy costs (or less, I'm not sure).
Lots of misinformation going on here (Score:3, Informative)
I have to remain anonymous or my boss will kill me.
I regularly order 50K+ units of TFT montiors, LCD TV, etc.
The market price fluctuates for a number of reasons:
1. Demand - ordering patterns of standalone monitors change season by season. For example, a glut of orders after Chinese New Year caused a worldwide shortage in March, with higher resultant prices
2. Raw material availability - motherglass is only produced by 2 manufacturers worldwide. If they squeeze production or undersupply, then LCD prices rise.
3. Shipping and insurance costs increase with war, pestilence and famine. March has been particularly bad this year.
4. The manufacturers (mainly in China and S. Korea) are opportunists who will use the above points to increase their margins. Despite factory audits, price pushing still goes on and some comapnies are known to collude on prices.
To be fair, when you take into account points 1 to 3, the manufacturers do have to offset fluctuations against average prices.
The difference between laptop prices and monitors is simply a matter of the size of production run and the power of the bulk laptop buyers.
Expect prices to rise as Bush proves just what a criminal he really is in the Middle East and beyond.
If Perle etc. move against North Korea, a lot of the world's production capacity is going to be severely affected.
As if that is the only problem with dropping bombs on innocent people!
DVI input to CRT monitors (Score:4, Insightful)
Alas, i do a lot of video testing, so I need a display that is analog resizable - a CRT. But that analog noise in VGA always worries me, since it's hard to prove what image errors are due to compression, and which are due to the cable. So, what I want is a DVI CRT! Something like a LaCie ElectronBlue 22".
Anyone making anything like that. I don't mind if it's significantly more expensive than a normal monitor.
PC/TV Combo (Score:3, Informative)
A Quick Economics Lesson (Score:5, Interesting)
But in real life, especially in electronics markets, firms can face binding capacity constraints. A mark-up in the LCD market is an example of price-fixing only if the existing firms are creating an artificial shortage: i.e. they are explicitly or tacitly colluding to keep supply artificially low. The classic example of such efforts is OPEC and oil. However, if all firms are providing their capacity *and* the price at which quantity demanded equals quantity supplied is greater than cost
Yeah, but if the laptop LCD breaks... (Score:3, Interesting)
What are you talking about? (Score:3, Informative)
I found a Mag 14" for $150 after rebate at Best Buy!
Also at Best Buy: A off-name 17" LCD for $350. I paid close to $900 for my 17" LCD only a year ago. You can now pick up a 17" Samsung for $400!
Prices are definitely falling.
It's not gouging (Score:3, Interesting)
Don't go on slashdot screaming "PRICE FIXING" because that's really not the case. LCD prices have dropped SIGNIFICANTLY in recent years, to the point where a 19" screen is now somewhat affordable (around $700.) I know on a limited budget LCDs may seem expensive, but they're a lot cheaper now than they were 3 years ago (probably about half the price) and prices are still falling. OLEDs will come soon and that will cause even further price drops, because the OLED manufacturing process is less sensitive than the LCD process. In short, this article never should have made it to the front page, because it really doesn't line up with the truth.
Difference between gouging and fixing (Score:3, Informative)
Price fixing: all the stores in town get togather and have a meeting and decide that everyone will sell 15" LCD monitors fo $299. The consumer is screwed.
Price gouging: You break the screen in your laptop and the repair center says (after taking it appart), "what's on the hard drive." You say, "my only copy of last year's books." The repair clerk says, "That will be $1759, plus labor." The consumer is hog tied and gang raped.
The important thing: to remember - either way consumers get screwed.
Re:Boohoo! (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Gouging? (Score:5, Funny)
one who makes what is considered an unreasonable profit especially on the sale of essential goods during times of emergency
Ok, LCD screens are not an essential good and even though this is this a time of emergency for some, it's hardly relevant to the need for an LCD monitor. I'm not even sure they're making that much profit since there's such a high waste ratio in making LCDs. Besides, LCDs are just priced at what CRTs used to be
Re:Controllers are expensive (Score:2)
At what resolution? Think about the fact that, as the screen grows larger, the surface area grows exponentially. So does the probability of defects (very high with LCD displays), and so does the cost.
That's why you'll find small color LCD screens everywhere -- ATMs, gas pumps, portable TVs, etc. Larger ones are much more expensive to manufacture, and that cost is passed on.
Re:Where are all the high-res LCDs from laptops? (Score:2)
Maybe you should use an OS that sizes fonts according to how big they will look to the user, and not a number of pixels.
Re:I want one. (Score:2)
The minimal ghosting problems people complain about (I don't see them anymore on new displays) is outweighed by the lack of eyestrain. I can use the computer for much, much longer.
Re:I want one. (Score:2)
and it's a 19-inch LCD for $750, not bad!