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Handhelds Hardware

Review Of Upcoming Projection Keyboards 214

Posted by timothy from the easier-than-fingernail-implants dept.
malpern writes "I've written a review of upcoming virtual keyboards based on published reports. There are pictures, descriptions, and details for each of the four major manufactures (Virtual Devices, Developer VKB, Canesta, and Senseboard Technologies)."
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Review Of Upcoming Projection Keyboards More

Review Of Upcoming Projection Keyboards

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  • I gotta wonder (Score:4, Funny)

    by t0qer ( 230538 ) on Tuesday January 21, 2003 @06:06AM (#5125697) Homepage Journal
    If the moment I turn one of these laser keyboards on my cat will go nuts?

  • Release timescale (Score:3, Insightful)

    by ZenJabba1 ( 472792 ) on Tuesday January 21, 2003 @06:11AM (#5125709) Homepage Journal
    Some of those toys were meant to be released last year, but I have not seen them available. I really could use the wireless/bluetooth one at the end, as my space I have available for my computers is being reduced by another human being born into the world.

    Anyway my *icrosoft ergo keyboard is looking very tattered and worn out!

    • Re:Release timescale (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Proc6 ( 518858 ) on Tuesday January 21, 2003 @06:25AM (#5125761)
      I dont think these will help your space solution. They all seem to still require about the same size flat smooth surface as a mini-keyboard to operate. The only advantage is less to carry (ie. good for PDA's). Not to mention, if you're a fan of an ergo keyboard, boy will YOU be in for a suprise when you're banging away on a non-forgiving hard-wood or formica surface. You'll be Remo Williams in no time!
      • If you look at the little projectors you have to set up for these first gen demos, they're basically taking up as much room as the pda itself. They'll have to be designed into the Palm or whatever to have a chance -- otherwise the combo's bulky enough to be a mini PC, and those have more meat to the system than a Palm so why not just get one of them instead? (People haven't, yet, but that's really the natural alternative, isn't it?)

        Personally I'd prefer something physical -- flexible rubber-surfaced keyboards you roll out or whatever. This sort of reminds me of the eBook's limitations. There are probably lots of hidden sides to having the tangible keyboard, little things you'd miss. People think a book is simple, but the eBook has some serious publishing chops behind it and it still can't get it quite right. Typing in air with little wrist things on your hands? That just isn't going to fly.

  • What about ... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by whacker9 ( 638854 ) on Tuesday January 21, 2003 @06:12AM (#5125713)
    the feel of keyboards which is important too. I don't think this will pick up especially the senseboard ones (the rest atleast have a keyboard image). Type into thin air !! People around may take you for being psychotic or something. Plus I would really like someone to do this: "Now where is that Enter key?" heh heh heh.....

    • It's evolution, baby (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Travoltus ( 110240 ) on Tuesday January 21, 2003 @06:33AM (#5125779) Journal
      We used to use noisy typewriters.
      Now it is the traditional keyboard's time to face replacement.

      It'll take a whole generation, no doubt, of people who were raised up on projection keyboards, before it becomes accepted the way keyboards now are.

      It's a radical new concept and we technocrats should at least have some kind of open mind about it.

      Although there are nagging issues.. such as whether or not those keystrokes will be nore easily interfered with or intercepted...

      • Maybe. (Score:5, Interesting)

        by jetpack ( 22743 ) on Tuesday January 21, 2003 @06:49AM (#5125815) Homepage
        It's a radical new concept and we technocrats should at least have some kind of open mind about it.

        But many of us technochrats still dislike the feel of laptop keyboards because they don't respond quite "right". I suspect these new virtual keyboards will take quite a bit of getting used to and won't be adpoted very quickly.

        Just a guess, of course.

        • Re:Maybe. (Score:4, Interesting)

          by DiSKiLLeR ( 17651 ) on Tuesday January 21, 2003 @07:04AM (#5125842) Homepage Journal
          Except the Titanium PowerBook G4 Keyboard.

          That has to be the damn best keyboard on the planet. I just cannot get enough of it!

          I wish i could plug this keyboard into my desktop PC at work.

          I just can't put up with normal keyboards anymore. Nothing is as nice and sexy as the powerbook keyboard.

          D.
          • I'm writing this on a 2 week old TiBook right now. The keyboard is very good for a laptop (although not appreciably better than my old Vaio), but it doesn't come anywhere near my desktop's Logitech keyboard.


            Sorry :)

          • The powerbook keyboard is better than average, but is not phenomenal by any means. As the owner of a subcompact Fujitsu P-2000 and a Powerbook G4, I actually prefer the Fujitsu keyboard and I'm a keyboard snob [phataudio.org], I only use IBM model M's or sun type 6 on the desktop.

            I can't believe the parent Mac fanboy post got modded up. How the hell is the powerbook keyboard sexy? Seriously, some of you guys need to stop masturbating to switch ads [apple.com].

    • I've been told by my daughter that occassionally she catches me typing into the bed while I sleep. Until voice recognition becomes much better technology, typing is an essential communication skill for a huge number of people.

      Of course I'm one of those people who will happily read a novel on a screen, regularly used a mouse to draw complex images until I finally broke down a bought a stylus, and generally spend more than twice the amount of time talking to people on the computer than I do in real life.

      Sure, keyboards are nice. Feel is important, I still miss my old clacking keyboard that went with my last computer but was destroyed by the great mineral spirits disaster in my house. But I think virtual keyboards are an important step to an eventual goal of getting rid of keyboards and mice and all sorts of other sorts of distracting clutter.

      I might go for a wireless computer that sat underneath the bed, that I viewed with one of those virtual screen glasses, typed into my bedsheets/walls/kitchen counter/deck rails outside, and moused around using waves of my hand and my pointing finger. Sure I'd probably look like a complete doofus, but if I somehow were a more productive and mobile doofus I think I could live with that.
    • Yeah...I just love it though when someone writes up a review from whitepapers and press reports for something he hasn't used. Especially seeing as the tactile aspect (or lack of it) is the whole meat and bread of the thing...how can you write a 'review' like that?!

      What a waste of time. His and ours.

  • Ack (Score:5, Funny)

    by houseofmore ( 313324 ) on Tuesday January 21, 2003 @06:13AM (#5125717) Homepage
    That'll never fly in school. Who wasn't getting in shit all the time for drumming on the desk eh?

    • Re:Ack (Score:3, Funny)

      by kwoo ( 641864 )
      That'll never fly in school. Who wasn't getting in shit all the time for drumming on the desk eh?

      But now you'll be able to have an excuse for it that should distract the class for at least five minutes while everyone checks out your new toy! Pull it out when you want a break. :)

  • Pain and Suffering (Score:5, Interesting)

    by sholden ( 12227 ) on Tuesday January 21, 2003 @06:13AM (#5125718) Homepage
    Such keyboards would be great with PDAs and other portable devices.

    But I suspect that using one constantly (such as for you desktop machine at work) would produce lots of pain and suffering. Banging your fingers on the probably hard solid no-give surface of a desk all day probably wouldn't be great fun. Stopping your fingers before they hit the desk would be a quick route to RSI land... I guess you could put somethign soft where your fingers will hit, but then why not just use a nice clickity-clackity keyboard...

    On the plus side, it'd make those old games where you have to push two keys in quick succession over and over again (Summer Games for example) much easier.

    On that note, did anyone else build a 'joystick' for the C64 out of 2 nails some wire and a screw driver, just so they could get really fast times in the 100 meter sprint on that game?

  • Potential finger damage... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by httpamphibio.us ( 579491 ) on Tuesday January 21, 2003 @06:14AM (#5125723)
    I hope you don't actually have to touch the surface that it's being projected on. A couple weeks back somebody posted a link to a modified typewriter keyboard to use on a computer because his wife's fingers reacted badly to the jarring motion of using a touchtype keyboard. Imagine how jarring it would be to repeatedly slam your fingers against such a hard surface...

    • Re:Potential finger damage... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Mr_Silver ( 213637 ) on Tuesday January 21, 2003 @06:58AM (#5125831)
      I hope you don't actually have to touch the surface that it's being projected on.

      I just made myself look really stupid in the office here by pretending I had one of these keyboards.

      What did it prove? Well apart from the fact that no-one noticed, this might actually be better than a keyboard.

      Go on, try it. Pretend you have one of them laser keyboards and type a few words on the desk. Notice how lightly you type? Now hit a couple of keys on your keyboard with the same pressure and notice that you don't get anything.

      In fact, as long as you don't have to hammer the table (i doubt it), it'll probably be better for you as you won't be hitting the "keys" as hard.

      Also don't forget that you won't have to raise your hands at the wrist quite so much as you do for a keyboard.

      • Also don't forget that you won't have to raise your hands at the wrist quite so much as you do for a keyboard.
        I think the take-home message is that it is natural for the wrist joint to lie straight. If you have to raise at the wrist now, then you are doing it incorrectly. Try to lower your keyboard or raise your chair.
      • Two issues.

        First off, you need to run your "test" for about 3 hours to get any real results. I watch people pounds away at current keyboards with 4 to 5 times the force that is actually needed to activate the keys. Those people would destroy their fingers on a smooth surface.

        The second issue is ergonomics. Your current keyboard is angled for a reason, finger travel. The idea is that you want to try and keep the finger distances as close to uniform when hitting keys on all the rows. Also, look at your hand placement when you're touchtyping. You gently rest your fingers on the home row (some keyboards even have extra marks on the f and j keys so that you can tell that you're properly oriented). How will you get this tactile positioning feedback from a virtual keyboard? (Especially think about jumping from the regular area of the keyboard over to the 10-key and back.)

        Nah, I think the virtual keyboards will be useful for devices that can't have a full-size keyboard. For the everyday use however they just have too many tradeoffs.

  • Finally! (Score:4, Insightful)

    by kwoo ( 641864 ) <kjwcode@g[ ]l.com ['mai' in gap]> on Tuesday January 21, 2003 @06:17AM (#5125733) Homepage Journal

    I have been waiting for something like this for a long time now. I have keyboard preferences that many people deem odd (Sun 3 keyboard, QWERTY layout, essentially), and this looks like the answer to my problem.

    I also like that at least one of the devices will have RS232-C output. That will make connection to older devices a lot easier, and drivers easy to write.

    Does anyone have any idea when these will hit the Canadian market? Sometimes we lag behind the US market, and other times we get it a week or two early.

    • I also like that at least one of the devices will have RS232-C output. That will make connection to older devices a lot easier, and drivers easy to write.

      The PS/2 interface is easy enough. Easier, in fact, than RS-232: you have a clock line and a data line. No oversampling or edge-correcting-clock necessary.

  • RSI Maybe (Score:4, Interesting)

    by BlackHawk-666 ( 560896 ) on Tuesday January 21, 2003 @06:17AM (#5125734)
    You would develop some pretty nasty RSI issues if you used this a lot...but who's going to do that. I think the purpose of the technology is to allow you to bang out a quick (and irrelevent) SlashDot comment while on the move. This would be great on the train home from work for example. You could reply to all your email of the day in otherwise unused time - then spend the 30 minutes you normally take to email people with your family instead.

    • Re:RSI Maybe (Score:2, Interesting)

      by atomicdragon ( 619181 )
      Depending on how much you need to move your fingers for these to register a hit, it would seem it should reduce RSI. Instead of having to press down a key, you only need to move your finger a small amount. I imagine as the technology improves a little, that it could be better for your hands than normal keyboards. I seem to picture it not as tapping the hard surface (something that may be damaging as other comments mention) but as merely wiggling your fingers a little, since it should require no pressure. On the other hand, how well you can well you can type without any such pressure may be a bigger issue.

  • Thin and dated (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Ydna ( 32354 ) <[ten.regews] [ta] [werdna]> on Tuesday January 21, 2003 @06:18AM (#5125736) Homepage
    The article seems to be a little dated. There's not publication date, but several references are almost a year old. Details are thin, but honest for a product that's yet to see the light of day.

  • Multiple keyboard setups would rule... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by httpamphibio.us ( 579491 ) on Tuesday January 21, 2003 @06:18AM (#5125738)
    I'd like to see something like this where you could switch between keyboard layouts like QWERTY, Dvorak, Typematrix, Kinesis, etc...
    • I'd like to see something like this where you could switch between keyboard layouts like QWERTY, Dvorak, Typematrix, Kinesis, etc...

      Frankly, I'd settle for being able to switch Control and CapsLock. Perhaps move Escape and Backspace, back-tick and tilde.

      Deleting/disabling keys would be nice, too. I didn't check any of the pictures too much, but it might be nice to be able to disable/delete the arrow keys if they get in the way.

    • Re:Multiple keyboard setups would rule... (Score:4, Interesting)

      by drunkmonk ( 241978 ) on Tuesday January 21, 2003 @06:42AM (#5125802) Homepage
      Not only mutiple layouts, but also multiple languages. There's nothing worse than being stuck in Moscow and having to use a Cyrillic keyboard, even if you touch-type it's distracting. With this you could, in theory, just switch right back to English.
      • There's nothing worse than being stuck in Moscow and having to use a Cyrillic keyboard, even if you touch-type it's distracting.

        Well, unless you're russian, I suppose.

      • Hmm, at least russian language is similar to English in terms of almost the same size of the alphabyte.

        Now, try to stick in China with Chineese keyboard. Got a difference?

        I believe that South-East Asia has the biggest motivation in morphiing keyboards.

        • To enter Chinese (on the mainland at least... I don't have any experience with Taiwan or Hong Kong), you use an English keyboard to enter characters.

          Chinese is romanized in the PRC using a system called pinyin. What Chinese users do is enter the pinyin for a character (i.e., 'tian' for the first character in TianAnMen Square), and a list of characters that are romanized that way appear (a short list, normally, of common characters, and good software will try to figure out what you are saying and present the most likely options), and then you choose press the number corresponding to which character you meant. To use the example above, the 'tian' you want would probably be the first or second option, so you would type 'tian1' and the character would appear.

          It's rather cumbersome at first, but once you get used to it it's not too bad (and it sure beats those massive typewriter contraptions with thousands of characters to choose from that you may have seen from the pre-computer days). I've seen professional Chinese typists that match the speed of the best Indo-European language typists.
    • I've gotten very used to one of these swoopy keyboards that are split in half. I'd imagine that with a v-keyboard you could put it in any configuration your want, and having it split and angled would be very nice and go a ways toward comfort.

      Heck, it's all software controlled (assumably). You could split it where you want it, or even duplicate some keys on each side (I still reach over periodically and try to hit the B key with my right hand).

      Damn, how about game controllers? Totally custom per game. And with two players, it could project two controls, though they would have to be pretty close to each other. But overall I think game controllers could be a pretty big deal with these.

      Just some random thoughts...

      Jason

  • think ppl (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    hard surface!
    display it on a pillow or any cushion.

  • A couple of issues (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Pastey ( 577467 ) on Tuesday January 21, 2003 @06:22AM (#5125747)
    There are a few things that I think would become annoying very quickly about projection keyboards.

    The first would be the lack of tactile response. After all, your desktop or any other hard surface would become uncomfortable after just a few minutes IMHO.

    The second would be the lack of any position designators - i.e. the 'f' and 'j' keys. Most 10 fingered typers probably don't even think about it anymore, but it's very easy to lose your place without them. I suspect this would become very annoying if taking notes in class during a lecture or in a business meeting.

    As far as a good portable keyboard for a PDA, my money is on the new Stowaway XT [thinkoutside.com]. It's been getting really [the-gadgeteer.com] good [bargainpda.com] reviews/previews [visorcentral.com].

    Anyone been lucky enough to play around with one yet?

    • I looked around at that site - almost everything has been discontinued :(

      I was looking in particulary for a good keyboard for an ipaq 3800.

    • Re:A couple of issues (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Boiotos ( 139179 ) on Tuesday January 21, 2003 @07:53AM (#5125961) Homepage
      Your second point is a good one: I need something to keep those index fingers properly located. It seems to me, though, that a 70mm square patch with reusable adhesive on one side and a rough surface on the other would do the trick nicely. You'd stick them where the 'f' and 'j' keys are projected. 3M would give away six of them with the keyboard dealy; to buy more you'd go to Office Depot and pay through the nose :-)
    • The second would be the lack of any position designators - i.e. the 'f' and 'j' keys.

      One model in the review didn't use a projected keyboard at all - it was just a set of modules which clamp onto your wrists and detect finger motions. These units probably wouldn't have this problem, as they only sense where your fingers reach to, and not where they hit in absolute space. Plus, if you like those twisted ergonomic keyboards you could hold your hands at any angle you want. If you practiced you could probably type palms-facing-up if you wanted...
    • Haven't got one but I drummed my fingers on my desk for two minutes pretending to type whilst looking through something else and after the two minutes my pads were beginning to hurt. More unpleasant than typing.

  • How did they resolve shadowing? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by hcdejong ( 561314 ) <hobbes@xm s n e t . nl> on Tuesday January 21, 2003 @06:23AM (#5125752)

    i.e. what happens when one finger taps a key that is in the shadow of another finger? The review doesn't mention this.

    • I would expect that the system probably uses exactly that information. Ie: "she broke two lines of keys, so she's hitting something in the home row."

    • Re:How did they resolve shadowing? (Score:4, Informative)

      by FatlXception ( 458604 ) <slash.fatlxception@no-ip@org> on Tuesday January 21, 2003 @11:14AM (#5127271) Homepage
      From this [sciam.com] Scientific American article on it a while back:

      The collection of distances from the array of pixels provides a 3-D map of the area scanned. Moreover, this device can survey its surroundings more than 50 times every second. Like the pattern projector, the infrared light stays close to the surface. The sensor's view can get blocked if a user hits two keys at once that are exactly in line from the sensor. That happens rarely. But if it does, the keyboard's software makes the shift key "sticky," so even if it gets blocked by a finger on the E, the keyboard will interpret it as the two keys hit together.

  • Obvious problem (Score:4, Interesting)

    by bertok ( 226922 ) on Tuesday January 21, 2003 @06:25AM (#5125756)
    I seriously doubt anyone could use these at full-speed, because there is no tactile feelback! The whole point of touch-typing is to type by feel, not by reading the keys. Poking at the keys one at a time is possibly worse than handwriting recognition speeds, and vastly inferior to speech recognition. I pity the company that invested $20 million into this useless novelty item.
    • eh? tactile feedback has nothing to do with knowing where the keys are. touch typists don't feel for the keys they just press instinctively in the right place. if you had actually read the article you'd know that some of the devices don't even have a visual display - they work directly off the motion of the fingers - so even if you did look you wouldn't see anything.

  • A round-up of press releases, not a review. (Score:4, Interesting)

    by ColmanReilly ( 632586 ) on Tuesday January 21, 2003 @06:25AM (#5125759)
    He hasn't used any of these, so it doesn't quite count as a review. Has anyone seen any of these devices work? So far I can't think of any actual hands-on reviews of them.
    • Not to mention that, for the most part, these are pure wisps of vapor.

      The first one (Virtual Devices), especially, appears that it will never solidify. They have $100K investment and five employees. Can't eat very long on that money (unless it's the CEO, his wife, and three kids). A couple of them said "unable to locate patent by USPTO search." What did they do, go on the web and punch in "laser AND keyboard AND input"? On the same page, the *most promising* developer states that they do have patents. If you really intend to develop a piece of technology and patent it (in order to twist Logitech into paying you big money) you need to invest in a real patent search.

      Waving the vapor aside, I would definitely love to have this integrated into my PDA and cell phone. What good is wireless messaging if the best you have is T9? Seems that, given a reliable incarnation, the clamshell-form of the laptop computer would disappear. You have a tablet, and a foldout prop. Perhaps a very thin slide-out projection sheet for typing on your lap. The sheet could double as a screen cover, and flip to the back of the tablet when not in use.

      It'll be great if these manage to catch on. There's a bit of prior art for the whole pen-based concept anyway. [millikin.edu] (number 8 is especially striking, Palm Inc. all the way)

  • Feel & screens (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Malfourmed ( 633699 ) on Tuesday January 21, 2003 @06:25AM (#5125760) Homepage
    I've tried typing into the air, or onto a flat surface. It's weird. Good keyboards depend a lot on the responsiveness of the keys - the feel. Like the old solid but noisy clickety-clack IBM keyboards or (my personal favourite) the almost noiseless, light (as in "lightness of touch", not as in "light emitting diode") Honeywells.

    Still, I'm excited by this technology. Now someone needs to marry it up with a similarly sized projection screen and we can have a computer with a full-sized screen and full sized keyboard that you can fit into your palm.

  • Not convinced (Score:4, Interesting)

    by captainclever ( 568610 ) <rj @ a udioscrobbler.com> on Tuesday January 21, 2003 @06:27AM (#5125767) Homepage
    Looks like an innovative idea, but I like to have something tangible i can touch; i like to feel the key being depressed so that i know i typed it. i don't (can't) type perfectly, and i'm sure i sometimes press a key that would be obscured by the front of my hand.- pressing the space bar with my thumb, for example? i'm sure that would be out of view of the projector in front of me.
    Maybe a good idea if you need to do lots of typing on a PDA, but who actually does? the screen's are too small to format anything anyway. PDAs are good for short notes but not inputing loads of text.
    Thats my view anyway. not intended as a troll, i'm just not convinced.
    • Nice to see another soton student ;)

      I know a number of journalists (as in, real ones, working for national or international newspapers) who use folding keyboards, palms and mobiles to submit print articles to their editors when they are on location. These are people who will be writing up to 10,000 words a day on the palm. That's a reasonable amount of typing.

      ~cHris

  • F12 (Score:5, Funny)

    by bezza ( 590194 ) on Tuesday January 21, 2003 @06:33AM (#5125778)
    I guess this is the end of my hilarious antics when I would run around and steal my co-workers F12 keys.

    How am I going to piss them off now?

  • Mapability? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by two_ply ( 610736 ) on Tuesday January 21, 2003 @06:40AM (#5125795)
    When I first saw this (here on slashdot actually) after my initial "well that's pretty cool" reaction something immediately popped into my mind:

    If the technology senses finger location then the layout of the keyboard should be irrelevant, leaving the door open for the keyboard layout to be rearranged virtually. While this wouldn't be so practical for work (except for maybe switching keyboard nationality at the press of a button), how badass would that be for gaming?

    Load up UT 2005 and your keyboard layout changes to put a ton of extra keys around your direction arrows. Instead of trying to remember that Ctrl+P+2 balances your shields in Tie Fighter, you have a large "balance shields" key wherever you want it. RTS games always have somewhat unintuitive keyboard setups because they have so many keys... well imagine a soft/bouncy surface onto which a different specialized, user mappable, user configurable keyboard was projected for EACH app/game. I don't know if we'll see this right away... but I sure as hell want too.

    • Re:Mapability? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by droleary ( 47999 ) on Tuesday January 21, 2003 @07:44AM (#5125925) Homepage

      While this wouldn't be so practical for work (except for maybe switching keyboard nationality at the press of a button), how badass would that be for gaming?

      Actually, it may be extremely practical for work, just not in the way everyone (or even the manufacturers, apparent) thinks. I see this sort of thing as being really useful as an extra, programmable keyboard. I mean, I could honestly do without the keypad most of the time, and surely I'm not the only one who remember when software relied heavily on function key template maps. You could virtualize those things and, in fact, could provide a number of custom layouts for macros or toolbar items as well. Just in typing this reply, I can see the use of being able to call up a special HTML keyboard that would easily allow me to tag a selection (an <i> key, a <p> key, etc.). Really, these people should forget about the stagnant PDA market and focus on providing a virtualized interface for the desktop market.

    • Dilbert (Score:4, Funny)

      by mmol_6453 ( 231450 ) <short DOT circui ... OT grnet DOT com> on Tuesday January 21, 2003 @08:04AM (#5125992) Homepage Journal
      Reminds me of an old Dilbert cartoon:

      Salesman: Try our FingerComputer 5000. It has a powerful AI, and implants under your fingernails so it can sense your typing. Of course, not everyone wants an intelligent computer knowing what they've been doing.

      Voice from his finger: Dave, about last night...

  • I don't think so (Score:3, Insightful)

    by john_is_war ( 310751 ) <jvines@gmaDALIil.com minus painter> on Tuesday January 21, 2003 @06:43AM (#5125803)
    I don't think this is gonna fly. While yes, it's a great idea, it also has a good amount of cons to it. First of all is the aethetics of it. The thing about normal (qwerty) keyboards is that you can modify angle, etc. But these are at minimum height.
    Then there is the one which didn't even have a visualization. Then you'd have to worry about where the center of your keyboard is, etc.
    THen there is the sight factor, how would people react so see a person typing on a projection?
    Next is the fact that it HAS to have a surface, an advantage you don't need for fold-up keyboards or using the pen-on-screen approach.
    What I think they should do is make them similar to DDR pads. Seriously, You make them small, they'll have plenty of room for keys, you can fold them up so you have portability. Then you can have just a thin foldup sheet of some sort of stiff material for support so you can use it on your lap while being on a subway or something like that.

  • I've used a 'rigid' keyboard... (Score:4, Informative)

    by kahei ( 466208 ) on Tuesday January 21, 2003 @06:43AM (#5125805) Homepage
    I've used a rigid, zero-feedback keyboard (a TouchStream prototype) quite a lot.

    For typing tasks like programming and writing articles, it starts off mildly annoying and rapidly becomes agonizingly horrible. However, I was very impressed by the potential for non-typing input, e.g. gestures, dragging the mouse pointer without having to move your hand off the keyboard.

    I think these boards would be great for the pda/cellphone market but for heavy workstation use it's just terrible ergonomics -- specially when the perfect keyboard [kinesis-ergo.com] already exists! That's the Kinesis Contour for those trapped in the land of flat keyboards.
  • If you're going to find a niche in market like this its got to be disrutive. And this is definitely disruptive.
    On the Eco front, think of how much less plastic that won't end up in a landfill!
    This scores on two fronts, as well as being, well, pretty damn cool! I'd love to be one of the first people using one of these on the train to work.

  • Touch Typing... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by MosesJones ( 55544 ) on Tuesday January 21, 2003 @06:50AM (#5125818) Homepage

    As someone who has learnt to touch type pretty successfully, which makes a huge difference to the way I work, I can't see these things being any use to me at all. You need to feel the gaps between the keys to indicate where they are. Sure for the "hunt and peck" mob out there this is a nice gadget to play with, but for a techy on the move who can actually type its not going to be useful.

    I'd prefer a tiny keyboard (I can touch type on a Nokia Communicator, its just about adjusting slightly) than one with no tactile feel.

    I understand why this will be great for somepeople, but for for speed typists this isn't very useful. Now a tactile glove might work a treat, well two of them obviously.
    • As someone who has learnt to touch type pretty successfully

      No knock on you, but I always get a little giggly when computer people talk about touch typists like they're left-handed or from the deep jungle.

      It's like: a mechanic that still doesn't quite know how to use a socket wrench, so they keep going for the crescents.

  • By the way. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by djupedal ( 584558 ) on Tuesday January 21, 2003 @06:52AM (#5125821)
    All these comments about drumming, touching hard or soft surfaces, typing in shadows or accounting for tactile feedback...

    These projected, virtual keyboards have little to do with drumming, touching hard or soft surfaces, typing in shadows or accounting for tactile feedback...they have everything to do with motion, however.

    The concept is really that simple...don't get lost in trying to overlay traditional ideas about traditional keyboards onto what is a new concept that must be tried out in person before giving an otherwise off-base opinion.

    • Re:By the way. (Score:5, Interesting)

      by melonman ( 608440 ) on Tuesday January 21, 2003 @07:23AM (#5125877) Journal

      These projected, virtual keyboards have little to do with drumming, touching hard or soft surfaces, typing in shadows or accounting for tactile feedback...they have everything to do with motion, however.

      But you still have conservation of momentum. If you start your finger moving to trip the sensor, I can only see three options as to what happens next:

      1. Your finger stops because it hits a hard surface, which is likely to get painful after a while
      2. Your finger stops because you use muscular control to stop it, which is going to place different strains on your hands (don't ask me whether it's better or worse than a standard keyboard)
      3. Your finger chops straight through the table, which gets you a part in a Kung Fu movie

      Excluding the third option, the other two sound like they are going to be a pain, literally. But surely the point is that these keyboards are designed for occasional use, not for 8 hour a day typing? I can't imagine that typing up War and Peace on most PDAs would be that great either, but then that's not what most people use them for.

      • I frequently type in the air just to loosen up (we all do)...the fingers don't simply start and stop.

        The finger tips simply circle or arch so that the finger is gently extended and then brought back towards the palm. Stick your hands straight out, fingers extended. Relaxed. Now wiggle your fingers...this is all that is acutally needed to activate virtual keys. No one said you must mimick regular typing.

        Nothing jarring and no strain at all. Again, it's a new concept. Forget about traditional typing movements.

        • I don't think it's quite that simple, because

          1. We might do what you suggest for 30 seconds, but doing it for 8 hours could be a rather different proposition.
          2. In particular, holding your hands in space for long periods is very hard work: in fact, it's a fairly common form of low grade torture. So you would need some kind of wrist support at the very least.
          3. When you are loosening up, you are not trying to hit ctrl-alt-shift-% (regex replace in emacs on a French keyboard) for example. Carefree finger wiggling is different to trying to hit a particular point in space, let alone trying to hit four of them at once. Come to think of it, co-ordinating simultaneous keypresses without tactile feedback sounds like a nightmare to me.

          There's a fairly basic physiological difference between gross motor movements and controlled ones. Like I say, I don't know how the long term effects of these keyboards would compare with a traditional keyboard, but they are certainly going to put different strains on your hands.

  • I can't think of a scheme that seems reliable.

    I saw some of these a CEBIT last year and the projector is a few inches above the desk and angled down at about 45deg. Didn't get to try any though.

    You've got to interrupt the beam of several letters just to "press" one key, so it must be pretty "smart" just to work that out.

    I guess it can assume it's on a flat surface but if it doesn't know how fat your fingers are then it doesn't know when you've touched the table either.

    Maybe there's a secondary scanner at table height that returns the x/y of anything that interrupts the beam?

  • Mirror, mirror... (Score:4, Funny)

    by eforhan ( 631605 ) on Tuesday January 21, 2003 @07:13AM (#5125856)
    If you set this on a mirror, will all your words come out backwards?

  • tech solution looking for a problem (Score:5, Informative)

    by thogard ( 43403 ) on Tuesday January 21, 2003 @07:25AM (#5125881) Homepage
    This is just another solution looking a problem. Keyboard typing is about pressing buttons. Its been that way since the 1st typewriter. This is about simulating that since people know it but the finger suffer too much shock hitting a non spring loaded surface. It becomes a major issue to use this often.

    Years ago when I had toys to play with that would do most of this, it became painful typeing on a bit of paper and detecting where the finger where. It just didn't work but looked like a good idea on paper and the sparc 1 could cope with the image processing needed. The major problem was people tend to drift if they don't have the physical feedback so you know where the key "centers" are. Modern keyboards suck with that compared with old 3270 keyboards which had an indent on J & F while the new ones tend to use some sort of raised edge. A projected keyboard won't have either.

    A cheap $10 rubber keyboard will roll up and go anywhere and it doens't abuse the finger tips so I don't see these expensive things going anywhere people have a real need to type. The projection things are ok for "yes/no" and "Enter your Name" but not useful for much of anything else.

  • Vaporware - http://www.virtualdevices.net/ (Score:4, Funny)

    by LedZeplin ( 41206 ) on Tuesday January 21, 2003 @07:28AM (#5125887)
    To:info@virtualdevices.net
    From: Me
    Subject: Vaporware

    What's the deal, so you have something or not? Pictures of it actually projecting a keyboard would be nice. Somebody should tell your artist you can't see the cone of the laser [virtualdevices.net] in the air.

    Forget that and sell your gravity defying PDA's and Cell phones [virtualdevices.net] that you have pictured at the bottom of the pdf.

  • Mummy, what's that man doing? (Score:5, Funny)

    by Chocolate Teapot ( 639869 ) on Tuesday January 21, 2003 @07:37AM (#5125909) Homepage Journal
    I hope he's typing on his lap dear. Oh look, there's a policeman!

  • Reminds me of that keyboard in TRON... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Peter Clary ( 34038 ) on Tuesday January 21, 2003 @07:44AM (#5125921)
    In TRON, Ed Dillinger (David Warner) had a large, black glass desk in his office. The keyboard was a glowing projection on the desk surface from inside the desk. It was very cool, but I had exactly the same thoughts about tactile feedback that many people are expressing here.

    Peter.

  • what about haptic feedback? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by KillerLoop ( 202131 ) on Tuesday January 21, 2003 @07:54AM (#5125965) Homepage
    While this may be a arguably nice toy for people who have to search for every key, it seems to be quite a drawback for those who can type "properly".

    I need the minuscle feedback when moving over the keys to have body memory kick so I can find the keys instinctively. When I type, I don't have to think where the key is, all done autonomously.

    Try it with a piece of paper with a printed keyboard on it. Not a chance to type blindly (which I do all of the time), and you won't get up to any decent speed even with looking at the keys.

    But thats exactly what I'd require from a "next generation" keyboard for PDAs and the like, if I want to enter text at a slow pace there are already a lot of viable alternatives.
  • When my desk gets covered in paper I wounld'nt have to dig my keyboard out. I could just keeping on working over the top of it.

    Bah. Might be a bit tricky to use on the bus.
  • I would think that this makes it worse? I was under the impression that tapping your fingers on a hard surface was exactly what you should *not* do.

    There was a previous article about a guy that hacked a typewriter to function as a keyboard for this very reason.

  • Bah... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by bahwi ( 43111 ) on Tuesday January 21, 2003 @08:14AM (#5126028)
    Give me a TouchStream [fingerworks.com] anyday. =) I don't want stupid red light, black with print is the way to go. Same effect, but no red light. I can see where these projection keyboards would be useful though, but I can see where they wouldn't be (work, school, home). Of course, on an airplane, travelling, etc, it'd be great. Just imagine a screen, and that's your laptop. Oops [slashdot.org].

    Still, it's good technology, even if not applied in the best sense here. Imagine your house is X10
    controlled(sans the pop-ups, of course). You pull out one of these things with custom buttons you did on your PC. Hit the lights that you want on/off and the wireless transmitter sends it back to the server to do it. Or you could have these 'magic' buttons built into a painting or art(-wannabe) object, and access them anytime anywhere, but keep them out of place. (Yes, this example took the technology and not the specific use of the projection keyboards).
    • > Give me a TouchStream [fingerworks.com] anyday. =)

      Hey... you got one too? I saw them linked from here before Christmas, and acquired one at the start of January. TouchStream ST(ealth), in Dvorak layout. Landed last week.
      It's wonderful; frightfully sensitive, but I never even needed a separate mouse since I first installed it. All these gestures for things - yummy.
      And their Support department know a thing or two about the product, as well. (I had problems setting it up in linux - probably caused to dodgy USB in the Vaio here - and asked for sample config files. They suggested radio interference noise... quick turnaround. Nice.)

      I really hope they become a household name, myself.
  • At lot of the comments here seems to forget that these new types of keyboards aren't meant for replacing your good old trusted keyboard. As the article states it's a product for PDAs and other small devices.

    The goal is to make something better than what we have today, i.e. Palm's Graffiti [palm.com] or T9-systems [theregister.co.uk] found on cell phones.

    Personally I'm really looking forward to something like this, because I think it would open up a whole new world for my Pocket PC.
  • I can set it on my girlfriend's back, and type on her ass, allowing me to code AND fondle her at the same time.

  • This sounds like one of those schemes for impressing ignorant suits or girls in a bar.

    Not much good for anything else.

  • I remember reading a while back in a Star Trek Next Generation tech book (Yup, geeky enough) that their 'keyboards' were something like this. It was a touch screen that 'morphed' depending on what you did.

    Example: Worf wants to attack that pesky enemy of the week. Touchpad has 'Weapons, Shields, Runaway'. Pushes Weapons and the touchpad changes to show Phasers, Photo Torpedos, Modified Deflector Array. Pushes Phasers, comesup with a list of the phasers, etc.

    A changing keyboard/touchpad is sort of a neat idea here....
  • Having converted to one of those split 'natural' keyboards (now I don't get carple-tunnel anymore) on both my home and work systems, and the fact that I touch type - and have difficulty keeping on my home keys *with* feedback, I find these virtual keyboards of limited usefulness.

    Yeah, they might be good in limited applications - and probably more for the hunt and peck crowd, as someone else has mentioned. They are not for me.


  • This idea sounds cool, sure, but it's completely fucking pointless.

    The whole point of having a physical keyboard is that your fingers recieve physical feedback. Thats why keys are springloaded. Ever notice how many times your finger misses the target on a normal keyboard, and ends up whacking more than one key? Well, you can feel that when it happens. On a projection keyboard, you can't, which sucks ass, especially in applications where you dont recieve immediate feedback on-screen for what you're typing out (password dialogs, hotkey stuff, etc.)

    Well anyway, if you don't agree with me, you're welcome to grab your CueCat, hop on your Segway, and go to work where your projection keyboard sits. Just be sure not to rest your hands on your desk at any time during your 8 hour shift, or let anything fall into the area where your keyboard is projected, like paper. Also, don't subconsciously tap your fingers on your desk out of boredom either. The results could be disisisisisisisisisisisisisisiasrtrtrtrterrrrrrrro oououououououssusssususss.

    Summary: Projection keyboards solve a problem that never existed in the first case. Its a great example of an invention that causes more problems than it claims to solve.

  • I first imagined virtual keyboards around 1994. I tried building something [google.com] from game gloves that could be had at the time but it was a joke. The projection keyboards are interesting but not sufficient since they depend on a flat surface. My vision of portable computing depends on a belt-mounted pack, bluetooth headphone for music and voice and (vitally) sound feedback from the virtual keyboard, heads-up vision, and keyboard gloves. The whole thing will be more compact than a small laptop, last for days with a recharge, and - yes - require expert touch typing, but that is a small price for being able to tap out your email and latest novel on your knees.
    I expect the first serious mass-market virtual keyboard will be seen in Europe and be used for SMS. :-)
  • You can write off Virtual Devices immediately. A guy I know is one of the resumes on their website and no longer associated with the firm, and the product is apparently total vapor.

  • The biggest strength i see here (outside of the portable/pda apps) is the power to create a customized workspace. As mentioned above, the ability to switch between different languages and layouts of keyboards would be great, but that's just the beginning.

    I spend a lot of time working on a digital audio workstation and one of the major drawbacks of the software revolution in music production is the lack of tactile tools like knobs, faders, etc. Often the software will create a facsimile of this equipment on the screen but manipulating these interfaces with the mouse is a pain in the ass. Imagine a larger laser unit that could project an entire, customizable mixing board onto an angled surface! You could rearrange the interface at will, flip between "pages" of interfaces, etc etc. That's really exiting.

  • This will improve my relationship with my girlfriend. She likes light-fingered backrubs but I usually can't be bothered to tear myself away from the keyboard of my websurfing terminal. Now there's no conflict...

    .
  • I remember the feeling I had when I've been tried to use public access kiosks. Both touchscreens and keyboard were horribly dirty. I can imagine how many bacterias and viruses are in there.

    The virtual keyboard can be a real solution: just project the keyboard image over disposable paper area, and change the paper by the end of the session (roll it out as a towell in the toilet).

  • If you shine these into your face, can you type by pretending you're in a Munch painting?

    Better yet, you could then learn to touch type by the burned-in keyboard laying over your visual field for the next week.

  • From the article:

    Website - Bearbones. No developer kit.

    Seems like the bones from a full-grown bear would be too big to easily fit on a desk. Are they killing bear cubs to build these things? What is PETA going to say?

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