Tom's Hardware Compares Power Supplies 317
Some guy wrote in to say "Tom's Hardware Guide takes a hard look at power supplies to find out if we are getting what we paid for. The results of the testing were very surprising." Very useful to anyone who has built their own machine from scratch or burned out a cheap power supply.
Power Supplies (Score:3, Interesting)
that was an accident..
the other was when he flipped the voltage on a system that wouldnt power on... that was an interesting smell, let me tell you...
eMachines Power Supplies... (Score:3, Informative)
EMachines are not necessarily bad machines. They just have cheap-ass power supplies and also cheap-ass hard drives. Replacing both when the machine is brand-new is a must if you want one to last for more than a few months.
Any article that has a flaming PSU is good. (Score:4, Insightful)
Comment removed (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Fireworks (Score:5, Funny)
I know you're thinking novice... But he's a software engineer
You learned the wrong lesson.
Lesson to be learned:
Never, Never, Never let a software engineer touch the hardware.
Re:Fireworks (Score:3, Funny)
The software guys at NTG -- myself included -- had this habit of wandering into the hardware lab and taking up space just to kill time and/or clear their thoughts, sometimes idly frobbing tools. Drove the HW guys mad.
Actual overheard statement, delivered to wandering SW guy from head HW lab tech in police officer-voice: "DROP THE SCREWDRIVER! PUT DOWN THE SCREWDRIVER AND WALK AWAY!"
Schwab
Re:Fireworks (Score:5, Funny)
Moral of the story is unplug the power cable (we all do that don't we). Nothing gets your heart going like electricity! Like the time I was putting in a gable fan in my attic and cut a live wire with my T-Cutter's. THAT was a bigger spark, and burnt a nice big hole in the cutters. At least I got to exchange them at Home Depot
ngoy
(I'm still alive! Darwin ain't got nothin' on me!)
Re:Fireworks (Score:2)
Tim
Re:Fireworks (Score:5, Informative)
Luckly my surprise with the new ATX stuff wasn't as bad, I just had a machine power up when inserting a video card. No damage done.
To keep this a bit more on topic too, most good power supplies have a hard switch (as opposed to the soft one that the ATX power button triggers) on the back that will keep all current out of the motherboard.
Re:Fireworks (Score:2, Informative)
Then I dropped a screw onto the motherboard and the computer came to life! Scared the hell out of me I tell ya.
Rather than reaching for the screw and causing a short-circuit or fire destroying my brand new mb, i unplugged the machine and thanked God that my system was fine afterwards. whew...
I guess that experience is closest to working on a dead person in a morgue and have them move/come to life. hehe...
Re:Fireworks (Score:2, Insightful)
For that matter, if you're concerned about static zapping computer components, it's typically sufficient to make sure you are at the same potential as the computer by using a wrist strap connected to the chassis.
Re:Fireworks (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Fireworks (Score:2)
I was having a hard time deciding what to give the winners of the tournament
Maybe I'll give away marsh mellows and PC cases with really crappy, Maxtron power supplies
A 400+ watt fire should be pretty cool
Re:Fireworks (Score:2, Funny)
Well, that explains it. Some of the dust bunnies must've been shaken loose from his pullover.
And I bet you forgot to warn him that these days you're not supposed to pre-warm the vacuum tubes with a cigarette lighter, before cranking the big power lever.
sparkle power supplies (Score:5, Informative)
i buy them at newegg [newegg.com]. highly recommended.
Re:sparkle power supplies (Score:5, Informative)
Yes, they're cheap, BUT you'd better buy two for every machine you use them in (one for backup) just to save you the trip to your local Fry's (or whatever your local computer hardware reseller is) for a replacement WHEN it fails.
And to top it all off, most Chinese power supply companies (like Sparkle) feel that 10-20% failure rates are ACCEPTABLE! This is in an industry where a 1% failure rate usually sends the engineers back to the drawing boards. Sparkle Power is a huge joke in our industry...
Re:sparkle power supplies (Score:2, Informative)
Re:sparkle power supplies (Score:4, Informative)
We briefly switched to Deer, mostly because we got a really good deal on some cheap generic cases that came with the Deer supplies. No kidding the failure rate was over ten percent, but we only sold about 120 of these, so it's maybe not a great sample. But friends at another, larger store across town said that at least half of the supplies in the first batch of cases they ordered died within four months. Needless to say that was also the last batch of those cases.
Another thing - one customer who lived in an upstairs apartment in an older house had problems from day one - crashes, freezes, you name it. Every time he brought it in for service, though, it worked great. Right away we suspected PSU, and so we swapped in a Sparkle on his second visit - I talked to him a couple of months later and he hadn't had a single problem since. Similar things happened to a lot of rural users as well.
Why trust Sparkle? If I remember correctly, they make power supplies that are used in hospital equipment such as Dialysis machines and "Iron Lungs." These, obviously, have to be reliable, so the company definitely has the know-how, even though the PC PSU's are undoubtedly held to lower standards. They aren't cheap, but they aren't the most expensive on the market, either.
In the end, we settled on Antec equipment, not for any problems with Sparkle, but because it was difficult to get a decent case sans-PSU to put the Sparkle's into. We've yet to see one of these come back dead, either - since we started using them, we've sold over three hundred. That's a pretty good record for both companies, if you ask me.
Re:sparkle power supplies (Score:2)
Perhaps Sparkle has gotten better, I don't know or care. Their past reputation with me has earned them a permenent spot in my 'shitty hardware/software list'.
Sparkle is right above MS BOB, and right below IOMEGA in the list.
Re:sparkle power supplies (Score:4, Informative)
Re:sparkle power supplies (Score:3, Insightful)
I second the recommendation for PC Power and Cooling [pcpowercooling.com]. I got tired of going through a PS every 6 months, having themburn-up or worse; the bushings would start to fail and it would sound like a turbine engine until it warmed up. As far a price goes; it's a matter of perspective. I think I paid around $200 for my high-perf 350W supply about 5 years ago. To date, it's the only piece that I haven't upgraded or replaced in my system (including the case). Spend twice that amount for the latest bleeding-edge graphics card and see if you still have it half for half as long.
Re: Sparkle Power Supplies (Score:4, Funny)
- Flame
- Smoke
- Sparkle
THE WINNER ACTUALLY IS A SPARKLE POWER SUPPLY (Score:3, Informative)
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduct.asp?submi
click 'see picture' on the 300w/$27 unit and you'll see the EXACT SAME model number as the winner.
Re:sparkle power supplies (Score:4, Funny)
dead toms. (Score:5, Funny)
Good and QUIET! (Score:5, Informative)
I highly recomend checking these folks out. [quietpc.com]
Tom's Recommended/NOT-Recommended Power Supplies (Score:2, Interesting)
From the article:
Fortron FSP, Verax and Herolchi
With its generous maximum output of 390 watts (at which point it powers down in an orderly fashion), the Verax FSP300-60ATV is an impressive performer. Thanks to its quiet fan, the Verax is practically inaudible in use. Also recommended is the Fortron FSP. This model achieved a maximum output of 450 watts - and it was quiet. The Herolchi HEC-300LR-PT was one of the least expensive units in our test. Despite its low price of about $50, this 300-watt power supply performed well. It also addressed safety issues adequately with a built-in safety cutout.
For those looking for a more readily available solution, we recommend the Antec True Power 380P. Antec has done a good job in making their products available from a variety of sources including many local retailers. Chances are that you will have no problems being able to find the Ture Power 380P. The True Power 380P offers a good balance of performance for the money, but expect to pay a little more for this unit, but you will get excellent packaging and a manual that is ahead of the others.
To sum up: More support for consumers
Our comparative power supply test indicates, beyond question, that some manufacturers need to make serious quality and accuracy improvements in the information provided with their products and with the performance statistics claimed in order to make these products perform as represented. Time and time again, our lab measurements were unable to verify the output figures represented on the model identification sticker. And how, exactly, is a computer purchaser supposed to check the output of a power supply? This kind of feature marketing is not possible with other hardware components, such as processors or graphics chips, because the user can check for performance using benchmark-testing software.
Here are some of the salient facts from our lab test. The 520-watt rating of the Maxtron TOP520P4 was overly optimistic. In our test, it burned out well before this, when it reached a combined load of 446 watts. The Leadman LP-6100E also performed well below its manufacturer's specification; the specification claimed a 500-watt rating, but in practice it only delivered 426 watts. On the other hand, the power supplies from Conrad, TSP and Verax were able to provide stable voltages, even when stressed in excess of their specification. With a measured peak output of 454 watts, the Fortron FSP exceeded its specification by 23%. The 300-watt Verax was able to deliver an astonishing 390 watts.
We do not recommend the models we tested from Noise Magic, PC-World and Maxtron, as none of these models offer any safety overload protection (auto cutout) and their capacitors explode with an audible "bang!" well short of their maximum rated output.
There are a few surprises for the potential power supply customer in the area of price. With the exception of the SCS, retailing at approximately $30, all of the other test models retail for at least $50. The highest priced example is from Engelking, with its 300-watt model retailing at about $235.
Re:Tom's Recommended/NOT-Recommended Power Supplie (Score:2, Funny)
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Re:Tom's Recommended/NOT-Recommended Power Supplie (Score:2)
I plan on visiting the site in a few hours to give it a critical read when I can actually click through to the next page.
Re:Tom's Recommended/NOT-Recommended Power Supplie (Score:5, Funny)
And besides,
maybe if
Tom put more than
two or three lines
of text
on each page
and 25K of
banner ad HTML
his server
wouldn't get
slashdotted
so easily.
Re:Tom's Recommended/NOT-Recommended Power Supplie (Score:2, Informative)
I don't know if this is the case with these power supplies or not, but some transformers are loaded to go "bang!" when they exceed tolerances so that they don't melt and fuse shut and start a fire.
+5, Informative?!?! (Mod the parent DOWN!) (Score:3, Informative)
That's very informative information. I always wanted to know that you were looking for a solid Power Supply review.
Geez, that's incredibly dishonest and disrespectful thing to do. Sure, you made sure that we knew it was from the article, but did you ever notice the copyright disclaimer at the bottom of their pages? They aren't making money if we read the article from another source.
I can almost understand this when a site is slashdotted, but that rarely happens to THG.
Any person that read the parent post and decided not to go to Tom's Hardware web site as a result, please do so anyways. They're surviving on advertising revenue.
Marketing lessons from audio amps? (Score:5, Funny)
My favorite was a $25 amp car audio amp I bought about 10 years ago. I kid you not, this thing is about 2x the size of a deck of cards, and is rated at 500W per channel. Ha ha ha ha! No, I didn't buy it for it's amazing power, I bought it because it was $25 and I needed a cheap amp for some tinkering!
Re:Marketing lessons from audio amps? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Marketing lessons from audio amps? (Score:3, Insightful)
It was more than likely rated at 500watts Peak and did not mention a THD rating at that wattage.
Car audio is usually marketed at truthful levels. Pyramid (I think that's how they spelled it) amps were usually rated at thousands of watts. but if you look it is rated as peak not RMS and it's THD was at 5%.
now an amp that sounds great is rated at 0.05%THD at RMS watts. a 100watt RMS at 0.05%THD will knock your socks off with a pair of 15" woofers in an isobarik enclosure.
the moral? read and UNDERSTAND the specs... car audio makers bank on the fact that the large number of cunsumers are too dim to understand the markings on the box.
Non-custom built power supplies poor? (Score:5, Interesting)
I realize that me and the half of my friends and family that are not hardware-savvy only make up a small sampling. But none of the people that I know that have bought pre-built machines have had a problem with power supplies. Whereas at work, where my office is filled with machines constructed from the parts of other machines, we've had two instances of power supply failure.
Of course the machines at the office are older and are used more often than the home-based ones, but I figured I'd put in my 2 cents.
Re:Non-custom built power supplies poor? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Non-custom built power supplies poor? (Score:5, Insightful)
A SMP box with a Gig or more of RAM, used to compile kernels, run FPSs at high resolution, host a couple extra drives of various sorts, get frequently booted between multiple OSes (startup loads are extraordinary,) run benchmarks, and basically do a bunch of other crap, will need a LOT more power. I fried an Antec 300W PSU in 3 months like this. Give yourself a fright and watch the case temperature during a FreeBSD "makeworld" sometime.
Tom's caters to people that push high end hardware to it's limit. You're basically reading hotrod magazine and wondering what's wrong with your Accord.
Missing Test Equipment (Score:5, Insightful)
To me that's almost more important than if the supply shuts itself down or not. Which, by the way, is still a nice FEATURE.
BTW: Definition of Noise (Score:2)
Re:Missing Test Equipment (Score:4, Insightful)
You get what you pay for (Score:5, Insightful)
Before I came to my company, they bought a bunch of no-name PCs. There must have been a motherboard flaw that caused them to burn out power supplies and they kept replacing them with cheap supplies which couldn't handle whatever the motherboard was doing, and they would burn out too. Out of about 8 machines, I think we went through 14 power supplies in two years.
You'd always hear, "What's that burning smell?" "Did you check the back of your machine? I think that's smoke from your power supply."
I ALWAYS get a decent supply and have NEVER had problems, even when I lived in Mexico and had pretty questionable electricity.
Re:You get what you pay for (Score:5, Interesting)
Very true. The problem's one of brand differentiation.
At the low end (vast majority), there's Joe Sixpack, who doesn't know anything about what's inside his box, and who doesn't even think there are modular components in it. "Dude! I got a Dell!"
At the midrange (20%), there's most of us. "It's an ASUS or ABit mobo, an AMD/Intel CPU, and an nVIDIA or ATI card. Umm, and a power supply that came with the box."
At the high end (5%), there's folks who know that no-name power supplies suck (IMHO) and Enermax rox (IMHO). But only because we've read from...
Unlike ATI-vs-nVIDIA, where the midrange and high-end folks can plunk in an "upgraded" video card and immediately see the difference between "good" brands and "shitty" card manufacturers, brand names in power supplies have trouble gaining traction, because while they're working, they're indistinguishable from each other.
And of course, when they stop working, it's too late. For that reason, always keep a spare supply handy. Even a "free" no-name supply ($5 bucks from a surplus store) will last you a week until your "real" power supply arrives from the web merchant.
Rule of thumb: Put your hand over the PS's exhaust fan. If the air's significantly warmer than the air in the PC's case, get a bigger power supply.
(I learned it the easy way - a d00d at work got a dual Athlon mobo and just tossed it into his old case, and wondered why it was so warm under his desk while his CPU temperatures were normal. Answer: 2-year old 300W supply + dual athlon + two 7200 RPM disks = one massively overloaded P/S. We threw in a 365W "spare" for the weekend and ordered a 450W that got there by Monday. Air flow out the back was much cooler. Frankly, I'm amazed the 300W supply was even able to boot before blowing itself to hell.)
Useful Related Link... (Score:5, Informative)
Antec Power Supply (Score:5, Informative)
On the plus side, my system is more stable, runs cooler, and is quieter than it was before. I greatly favor my premium power supply over the one that came with my case, and I strongly recommend anyone with a downed PSU to pay the extra dollar.
Re:Antec Power Supply (Score:4, Interesting)
Not only do they have varible speed fans in them, but they have a 2 wire lead to run 3 case fans (I only have 2) at varible speed.
With the front fans of the Lian-Li case that blow over the hard drives that are variable on their own, my machine is pretty quiet when doing nothing, but comes up to a nice wurr when compiling the newest glibc with "make -j2" (yes, I know it isn't parallel safe, but you only have to do it twice to catch the one file that hangs things up).
Re:Antec Power Supply (Score:3, Informative)
Actually, I was curious, if you're using a lot of Antec supplies could you tell me what the practical difference, if any, is between Antec's True power supply line and their Sl line? Is it just that the tolerances on the voltages are a little tighter?
Re:Antec Power Supply (Score:3, Informative)
The TruePower series also have "bling-bling gold grills" as my co-worker put it.
Re:Antec Power Supply (Score:3)
Since the 300W one went in (replacing an old 235W) it's been rock solid, even with the CDRW and floppy reattached. Now if I only had time to play games...
Re:Antec Power Supply (Score:3)
Side note: I'm also a big fan of Antec's computer cases. High quality, sturdy, well designed. Antec's cases also have Antec's power supplies. You can't go wrong with Antec.
I'm not employed by Antec, but simply a satisfied customer.
Re:Antec Power Supply (Score:3)
I purchased the SL350 [antec-inc.com] power supply, from their solution series.
For a little less money than the True series, it has dual temperature sensitive fans, with plenty of power for a fully loaded system, yet runs quietly.
I payed about $50 for it from googlegear, and I have been very impressed with the noise/heat/performance.
Power error? (Score:5, Funny)
Comparison of 21 Power Supplies
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Full Load and Overload - Power Supply Units Pushed to the Limits
Hehe...
Good article, wish I could have written it! (Score:4, Interesting)
I remember blowing a power supply on an Apple IIe once as I turned it on. Scared the shit out of me too! Since then I've never had any more trouble with the supplies in Apple's Macintosh computers (which weren't reviewed here, but seem fairly solid nonetheless). I did once get a nice big fucking jolt off of one of their monitors though, numbed my right arm to the elbow and left my right side sore for a couple days from the violent muscle spasm it caused. Had it been my left arm, I probably wouldn't be typing this right now...
Re:Good article, wish I could have written it! (Score:2)
Tomshardware (Score:5, Insightful)
Haven't given them a thought in over a year. All their "reviews" tend to shine highly on the products that fit "their" personal views. I mean jesus, any place that thinks you should have 2 (two) floppy drive power connectors is a little behind the times. Most people don't even use 1 floppy, let alone 2. And for all you people who weren't aware, a reviewer is supposed to enter a situation unbiased. Tom's hasn't started a review unbiased in easily 2 years.
Re:Tomshardware (Score:2, Informative)
While I generally think that Tom's is biased in some respects, this example isn't the best one. (Not that I'm trying to create havoc or anything, or disagree totally with the Anonymous Coward's opinion, I'll just present my own opinion.) Realistically, most people still use a floppy drive. Although you can burn a bootable CD, CD's are still rather impractical for transferring small files to another computer. You say, why not transfer it over the network, well, if you're trying to get the newest NIC drivers to a computer that you just put the NIC into, then well you have a problem.
Next problem, the reason that 2 power connecters was suggested, was for the Radeon 9700. If you take a look at the card, you'll see that it requires an external power source, as the AGP bus isn't quite powerful enough to give it ample power. This external power connector is a Floppy Power connector. You'll probably start seeing more graphics cards like this in the coming years, unless they drastically increase the voltage supplied to the AGP slot.
Re:Tomshardware (Score:3, Informative)
For instance, the head unit for my Creative SBLive 5.1 Platinum and various casemod toys like temperature monitors, fan speed indicators, etc.
Radeon 9700 (Score:4, Informative)
Enermax - only "satisfactory" rating... wtf? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Enermax - only "satisfactory" rating... wtf? (Score:3, Interesting)
No PC Power and Cooling? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:No PC Power and Cooling? (Score:2)
I have one of their PSUs and three of their Silencer fans in my PC. Works great and is very quiet. Sure, they're more expensive, but I'd rather pay for high quality instead of a burned out PC.
Re:No PC Power and Cooling? (Score:2, Informative)
I was wary of even using it in the first place, and there're two things I didn't like. There was no switch, and there was no vent on the bottom. I know a switch isn't technically necessary, but I really like the idea of switching off my PSU and leaving it plugged in while I tinker (grounding...). And the vent is kind of important, since the proc sits right under it...
And yes, I took all due precaution, and no, there is no obvious indicator that it is for a Dell (which are wired differently). Try a Google groups search for more experiences. No link, no time. Sorry.
Re:No PC Power and Cooling? (Score:3, Insightful)
this review is pretty lame IMO, they failed to review: both sparkle and pc power & cooling, probably two of the highest regarded names in power supplies, while at the same time they reviewed such no-name junk as "engelking", "coba", "channel well", "scs", "task", and "levicom".
and the summary is also quite worthless. basically they recommend 3 no-name brands as the "winners", no one is going to buy these due to availability and/or fear of no-name brands, while THG also recommends antec psu's to those who cannot find the others, which is also stupid because people already buy antecs in droves.
also we have the issue of rebranding. many power supplies on the market are simply rebranded no-name power supplies, how do we know that just because one "herolchi" power supply tested well, all others will also be top quality? the different herolchi models could be from completely different manufacturers!
Re:No PC Power and Cooling? (Score:2, Informative)
The most useful part of the Tom's Hardware writeup is the breakdown of estimated power consumption for a "high end" machine. Based on that, I figure the 450W part I have is just a bit over the necessary capacity. Maybe 15% or so, assuming the rating is accurate.
Anyhow, like you, I was disappointed to see Tom skip PCP&C in a rare PSU test. Sometimes I wonder a lot about Tom's. The AMD bias is obvious to me. OTOH, it's possible PCP&C wouldn't play ball and submit units for testing. Not unheard of. It's an American company, possibly with enough lawyers employed to govern a State.
Only one of each tested (Score:5, Insightful)
In particular, it would not surprise me if there are unit-to-unit variations in noise and the power at which they give up.
Tor
often overlooked... (Score:4, Informative)
PSU Fans versus CPU Fans (Score:3, Interesting)
NO SPECS for boards, no overload indicators... (Score:5, Interesting)
Why isn't every board and component clearly marked with its power consumption?
Why isn't every system clearly marked with the amount of power available to devices on the bus (power supply minus consumption of preinstalled components?)
Why isn't there some kind of built-in INDICATOR that WARNS you when the drain is approaching the power supply capability?
None of this is rocket science. It requires fourth grade arithmetic, a multimeter, and a little honesty.
On minicomputers, the power supply was sized for the worst-case set of boards that could be installed in it. That's probably too much to expect from PC vendors, but at the very least there should be an easy way to TELL.
"This is a real good power supply and it should be OK unless you put in an awful lot of boards that take a lot of power" just isn't the way to do things.
We expect this stuff to be clearly marked on our light bulbs, our vacuum cleaners, and our fuse boxes. Why shouldn't we expect it in our computers?
How much power (Score:2)
Why buy a beast of a 500W supply if all you're using is 300W, much better to invest it in a quality 300W.
Dual PSU's (Score:4, Interesting)
PSU's with builtin UPS! (Score:2)
It's really scary to get downtime just because somebody steps on the chord or something. Shit happens when you do important work, that's a corollary to Murphy's law.
It doesn't need to last very long, just so that you get the time to put the chord in again, and take the box down gracefully.
I know it has been done, but I couldn't find the link right now, but AFAIR, it didn't have the output you need nowadays.
I bet that the reason why it hasn't taken off is that most people use an OS that crashes so much, some downtime due to powerfailure isn't much of a deal... :-)
Re:PSU's with builtin UPS! (Score:2, Interesting)
Although the integration of the components makes it cheaper for the manufacturer to produce (to a certain extent) what happens to you when one part fails? You are screwed! PSU dead with working UPS = useless. Likewise the inverse. At least if they are separate you can repair one or the other and not have both sent out. If you have a tv/vcr combo and the vcr goes out, you are out of tv until it gets fixed. If the TV goes out, well, doesn't do any good to have a vcr, plus you won't have it anyways since it will be out for service.
But the corporations love selling people this integrated crap, because they know that you will sooner buy a new one than wait for it be replaced or repaired. Have you seen the cost of repairing electronics recently?
ngoy
Re:Dual PSU's (Score:2)
Some folks make redundant supplies that fit into an ATX compliant sizefactor. Thus they'll fit any case. They range from 250W all the way to 500W [amtrade.com] Antec used to make one I thought. Maybe Enermax. But they aren't cheap.
How good is Enlight? (Score:2, Insightful)
PS Diagonistics? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:PS Diagonistics? (Score:4, Informative)
My PSU is currently outputting 1.71 V to Core 0, 2.46 V to Core 1, 3.28 V to +3.3 V,
I can tell this all either in my BIOs or with some software I have called Motherboard Monitor or MBM for short.
Tim
I think.... (Score:2, Funny)
Could have done better... (Score:4, Insightful)
They should also have used a good O-scope to take a look at the power output waveforms while under load. I've seen a number of cases where a switching supply will look perfectly clean under low-to-medium loads, and then start to spike and freak out under higher loads. 'Tis a nasty thing to behold, and it can cause problems that can drive techs who don't know what to look for absolutely batty.
Also, others have mentioned that PC Power and Cooling was left out of the review for reasons unknown. I would guess that it was price. If so, all I can say is "How highly do you value your hardware?"
Clean and adequate power is the ONE factor that can cause more woes than any other. You can have the slickest quad-processor-super-Linux-cluster-RAID-whatever on the planet, and it won't do you one whit of good if you've got dirty power feeding it.
oh please! (Score:2)
Oh...wait. *sigh*
Enermax - cable length (Score:2)
Really nice on a towercase, but a midtower, I have to roll up the power cables. Nice quite powersupply too.
More information from all manufacturers (Score:5, Informative)
I'm currently planning my second own-built PC, and I must echo the article's request for more (precise) electrical information from manufacturers. It is outrageous that the peak current at 12V drawn by a HDD, or the maximum current at 12V provided by a PSU, is missing from documents that call themselves 'technical specifications'.
This information is vital: it only takes a high-end PC with 3 modern HDDs (what you might use for RAID or for other multi-disk performance tricks [tldp.org] to overload a 400W PSU. Not because it draws 400W during normal operation, but because on startup the disks draw too much current at 12V.
Re:More information from all manufacturers (Score:2)
Re:More information from all manufacturers (Score:2)
Tim
Weight indicative of power output? (Score:2)
My newest power supply really dishes it out. I can't remember the brand name offhand, but I will repost with it when I get home. My previous power supply didn't come near to giving out its supposed "350 W", which gave me a lot of issues while running DVD-ROM and CDRW etc at the same time. When I swapped the supplies I noticed that the newest one was about 1.5 to 2 times heavier.
Again, this isn't to say that all heavy power supplies are good, but if your supply is feather-light, it may be an indicator that it's not so powerful as stated.
EMI is a problem too (Score:4, Informative)
Antec TruePower 480w (Score:2)
Failures should be reported to UL and CPSC (Score:5, Interesting)
The relevant safety standard is UL 60950 (or the identical EU 60590 in Europe), "Safety of Information Technology Equipment". One of the required tests is a full-load worst-case temperature test. No way should those units have received UL or CSA certification.
UL's certification search engine is broken today, so I can't check the power supplies listed to see if they really passed. But those certifications are public information; you can check.
Current CPSC product recalls in the computer area include PowDec power supplies for NextLevel DSL modems [cpsc.gov] and several batteries for laptops. Sounds like that list needs some additions.
Phony/UL-uncertified power supplies (Score:5, Interesting)
UL's testing agrees with Tom's Hardware. All devices that really passed UL certification were found OK by Tom's Hardware. No UL-certified device blew up, caught fire, burned out, or failed to perform at rated load. All the units that failed lacked valid UL certification. The Leadman LP-6100 E did fail under full load at Tom's Hardware, but it shut itself down properly without damage. UL hasn't rated it, although they've rated previous Leadman models.
The Tom's Hardware article shows the data plate from the Chieftek power supply, which bears a UL marking. It's not in the database. It looks like many of those power supplies have fake UL certification, and for good reason - they don't meet specs or they're outright hazardous.
So if it's not in the UL database, don't buy it. There are plenty of good power supplies that have real UL certification. Corporate shops probably should check for those phony brands and take appropriate action. And tell UL; they will take action for phony markings.
Spec Fudging: A Long and Sordid History (Score:3, Interesting)
If anyone from Tom's is looking in, perhaps they may want to try out this test rig we developed for testing power supplies.
Back when I was working for NTG (later acquired by 3DO), our chief hardware designer, Dave Needle, assigned one of the engineers to test power supplies. It had to supply 5V at some large number of Amps, absolutely flat, and do it on continuous duty. Dave informed me -- to my utter, youthfully naive astonishment -- that the specs on power supplies couldn't be trusted.
The test rig the engineer came up with was several low-Ohm high-wattage resistors wired in parallel, submerged in a pan of distilled water. He then turned on the juice and watched the output on a 'scope. The room where these tests were carried out came to be known as The Steam Room.
I think he went through about a dozen prospective supplies before he found one that was acceptable.
Schwab
Where do you buy these? (Score:3, Interesting)
I've always had a really hard time finding these "secret" premium low-noise components. I would love to make my desktop quieter, and I would love to believe that these products will do the job. But if they're so awesome, why doesn't anybody sell them?
How About Using LESS POWER? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:How About Using LESS POWER? (Score:3, Insightful)
You have a choice in the matter. If you want top of the line performance, get an Athlon or a Pentium 4 (50 - 70 W) with power-hungry components. Otherwise, you can get a Celeron (25 W), a K6-III+ (20 W), or a C3 (10 W) with one hard drive and a video card that doesn't require active cooling.
I bought a little FlexATX bare-bones system that's a little smaller than a bread box. I put in a 5,400 RPM drive and a Celeron 850. The only fan is in the 100 W power supply.
big note: the fsp power supplies ARE SPARKLE (Score:3, Informative)
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduct.asp?submi
click 'see picture' on the 300w/$27 unit and you'll see the EXACT SAME model number as the winner.
source: reparations on the storagereview.com forums
Dont forget to buy a quality UPS (Score:5, Informative)
If you have power that sags or has other problems, even a high quality power supply is not going to save you.
I still can't believe there was ever a time when I didn't use a UPS at home. You really will add time to the life of your computer with a good UPS. Your PC will still become outdated, but at least it will be less likely to fail.
Mutton dressed up as Lamb... as per usual... (Score:3, Insightful)
Ripple is the amount of AC left in the DC output of a DC power supply. Real engineers and technicians measure this and take it into consideration to assure the reliable and healthy operation of the equipment being powered. There is no point in having a PSU that can deliver the required amount of power if it is also delivering the parts in the computer noisy power that may lead to instabilities.
The PSU's that actually were able to deliver more than their rated power, may have in fact been designed so that they actually deliver low ripple power at their rated levels. With power beyond that starting to show what the designers would deem, unsatisfactory ripple levels (Ripple becomes more apparent with higher loads).
A quiet (electrical) supply is a good thing for computers of any size and seeing an article at Tom's omit this amongst pages and pages of a "test" comparison does not surprise me.
Blah blah blah. People who know better, don't read Tom's, they "do it" themselves, properly. But the chance to test 21 different PSU's is something few geeks can do, so Tom ought to get things done correctly if he is to pass his site off as a valuable technical hardware resource.
But what I think is the real killer, is that Tom tests the noise levels of these PSU's, but not the electrical noise, the audible! Which kinda shows in a glaring manner the level of technical prowess his site staff and readership posses. Hell, they had multimeters, how hard was it to at least set them to AC and read the amplitude of the ripple!
"Test results in detail" my arse.
I'm not being picky BTW, ripple testing is a must do in PSU design and testing for most applications of a DC supply. Proper "test results in detail" would have included oscilloscope printouts of the ripple, IMHO.
Re:don't you think? (Score:2, Interesting)
I know I'll get modded down for this...even slashdot isn't immune from morons who think they know something about computers because they can build one...if you need a support group for people who spend insane amounts of money to make their quake3 framerate go up, then by all means, go visit Tom.
Re:don't you think? (Score:3, Insightful)
if you like pseudotechnical hogwash, incestuous relationships between advertisers and content providers, and meaningless benchmark data.
While I wouldn't flame them quite so hard, I have to agree with the spirit. THG lost all of my respect with their handling of that "hot contraband" P4 article. If I can't trust a website to tell me when they're Photoshopping their BIOS screens and shots of CPUs, how can I believe their benchmarks are genuine, or their reviews unbiased?
Re:don't you think? (Score:3, Informative)
Well, unfortunately I can't find the original thread on arstechnica (their archive search is broken). However, here's basically what happened:
Back in September, THG posted this article [tomshardware.com] with the title "Hot Contraband: P4 With 3.6 GHz" and the description "For this exclusive report, THG tested CPUs of the future, bringing you benchmarks for P4s in the 3.6 GHz, 3.33 GHz and 3.06 GHz variations."
In my mind, at least, this text implies that they managed to snag some unreleased P4 chips from Intel by one way or another and benchmarked them.
However, people on several websites noticed that the shots of the BIOS screen and the photo of the chip in question looked suspicious. They were actually from much slower chips, but with the numbers arranged so that they appeared to be from 3GHz+ CPUs. The shot of the CPU on the first page, for example, that has "PC3.3G0K" in the serial number was analyzed to show that the 3s were identical, and therefore at least one of them was copied over the original number in Photoshop.
Also, suspiciously, there was no testing of the hyperthreading that will be present in released P4s that are that fast.
Eventually, THG posted an acknowledgment of the issue [tomshardware.com], but it seems kind of hollow. For one thing, the shots they show of their super-unlocked P4 are not the same chip as on the first page. For another, they admit they're using current P4 technology. So basically what the article is about is not "Here is what the 3.6GHz P4s will be like," but "Here is what *today's* P4s are like if they are overclocked to 3.6GHz." None of the benchmarks apply to the real world unless you are going to use a liquid nitrogen (or however they managed such high clockspeeds) cooling system on a current P4 instead of waiting for the real 3.6GHz models with hyperthreading.
They *could* have been honest about it and called the article "THG overclocks a P4 to 3.6GHz!" like they've done in the past, but apparently that wasn't sensationalistic enough for them. If that weren't bad enough, they waited until a ton of people called them on their deception to admit what they'd done.
Ironically, this happened only a few weeks after Tom himself wrote an editorial about some unethical former writers for his site.
Re:ATX + AT power supply (Score:2, Funny)