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Handhelds Hardware

Palm Introduces Affordable Zire 273

Posted by CmdrTaco from the breaking-into-new-markets dept.
the beava writes "Palm has officially announced the release of their latest handheld, the Zire. At $99 dollars (retail), it looks like they're trying to market this thing to people like parents and children. " Not a bad looking unit for the price.
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Palm Introduces Affordable Zire More

Palm Introduces Affordable Zire

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  • No backlight (Score:3, Informative)

    by Howwie ( 516153 ) on Tuesday October 08, 2002 @09:21AM (#4409236)
    This thing doesn't have a backlight.
    • not only does it not have a back light, but there is no cradle, nor does it come with AvantGo. Yes, avant go is free, but that only helps you if you know what it is and where to get it. The only thing this new one has over the m105 is the built in battery, but I think the m105 is a better organizer.

      • Re:No backlight (Score:3, Insightful)

        by c.derby ( 574103 )
        yes, but the m105 was originally more expensive. it only dropped to the $99 range when it was discontinued. btw, if you know what avantgo is, you know where to get it. if you don't have it and dont' know what it is, do you really miss it? besides, this unit only has 2MB. avantgo would only fill up the "entry level" amount of memory. yes, i think that the lack of backlight is a big mistake. i could never own (another) pda without a backlight. but remember, this unit isn't for the pda connoisseur. its for the k-mart, target, walmart crowd. an "affordable" palm handlheld to get them hooked on the technology.

    • Same as Palm V (Score:3, Insightful)

      by D3 ( 31029 )
      This is the same as a Palm V with a different case. Go on e-bay and get a Palm V for about $75.00.

    • Re:No backlight (Score:2, Insightful)

      by palmpunk ( 324912 )
      Not only is my palm my organizer, its also a flashlight. Come on Palm. No one even makes watches without backlights!
      • Actually I have used the backlight of my Siemens M50 as emergency lightsource in a dark room - it's amazing how little light you ned to see a sufficient outline of large items.
    • I was all set to buy one of these because I'm sick of the batteries dying in my palm III and all the sync problems I've had with the serial->usb adapter and big clunky cradle, but they're saying that if it's dark, I can't use the thing? Are they nuts?

      Make a $109 version with a cheap little backlight and I'm all over it. I'm amazed they left this out.
      • TomatoMan, if you are in the US or CA, did you know that there's an easy solution to the battery problem you are having? A charger upgrade kit called Charge-N-Run makes the PDA charge on the cradle using a battery pack instead of disposable AAA batteries.

        The web site is Charge-N-Run [charge-n-run.com]

        I heard that they're planning an upgrade kit very soon too and it'll work with almost all the PDA's out there using AAA batteries.

        I've got one on my desk for my Palm VIIx and it works great. Had it since last year.

        LoB

  • parents and children? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by tps12 ( 105590 ) on Tuesday October 08, 2002 @09:22AM (#4409242) Homepage Journal
    Parents and children don't need handhelds. I was all excited about handhelds a few years ago, but these days the only people still using them are CS grad students (not that there's anything wrong with that). I only keep mine around because my watch broke. Once the novelty wears off (and it has), the ability to play Asteroids at a movie theater isn't all that great a selling point. Palm is on its way down, and PDAs will be remembered as the pet rock of the late 90's and early 00's.
    • I agree, the parent was NOT a flamebait.

      When I heard Parents I immediately thought of people that are not technically inclined.

      So, if we are looking to market an electronic device why the hell would you want to market it to people who are going to write their shopping list on the back of last week's grocery receipt?

      And to market to kids? My calculator was stolen when I was in 5th and 6th grade (maybe 6th and 7th). Granted I wasn't taking the best care to make sure it wasn't in plain view outside of math class. Who's to say that this PDA should be brought to school?

      They already banned TI-85 gaming, why wouldn't they ban PDAs as well? Holy cheating Batman.

      If they are truly marketing towards Parents and Children, they are making a huge error.
      • When I heard Parents I immediately thought of people that are not technically inclined. ...
        If they are truly marketing towards Parents and Children, they are making a huge error.

        Because geeks never have kids, right? Geeks never have parents for that matter either.

        Here's a hint: We are all our parents' offspring and many of us will (or already do) have kids.

        My stepfather uses a palm for his real estate business.

        Just because it is interesting technology doesn't mean that it is dificult to use either. Dead tree organizers sell well and there are themed ones targeted towards children. I saw a Harry Potter one a few days ago. Now tell me again why someone wouldn't want an inexpensive pda?

      • Re:parents and children? (Score:3, Interesting)

        by shri ( 17709 )
        Electronic shopping lists could be a real blessing for parents, specially those of young kids. Imagine putting your shopping list into your palm, then either syncing it with the grocery stores website or walking into the grocery store and beaming the shopping list to the store's computer. You can then sit at the coffee shop (more business for the store!) while someone packs your groceries for you and brings them over.


        I am still hoping that GPS prices fall and there is a GPS that can plug into the Palm.. or perhaps a bluetooth based location detection system. This would allow you to program a 4 dimensional alarm system (location (X/Y/Z) + time). Imagine a $200 device which could be programmed as follows ... "when you're out to lunch and walk past the video store, pick up DVDs for the weekend".


        Pity no one listens to me. :)

        • I tried 3 or 4 shopping programs before I found one that really worked for me. HandyShopper [palmgear.com] is freeware and fantastic.
        • Electronic shopping lists could be a real blessing for parents, specially those of young kids. Imagine putting your shopping list into your palm, then either syncing it with the grocery stores website or walking into the grocery store and beaming the shopping list to the store's computer. You can then sit at the coffee shop (more business for the store!) while someone packs your groceries for you and brings them over.

          Probably won't happen, for the same reason that a lot of good things don't happen - money.

          If I program my list into my PDA and sync it to the grocery store, I probably about brands enough to also record which brand of something I want. That leaves it open to interpretation. Imagine the nightmare of having to resolve vaguely shopping items with a database of similar matches...50 times (an assumed average number of items for a shopping trip).

          This means that, ultimately, certain brands would likely get weeded out, as they'd lose their shelf visibility, and thus their marketability. Price would soon be the only attracting option for those purchases...and you'd probably be a lot less inclined to invest in the purchase since you probably don't know the brand name (since you were never in the store to see it).

          Also, stores don't just put on sales to attract customers to shop there. Sometimes it's a calculated risk. Let's say (fake numbers) that I have a $0.20 margin on a gallon of milk. If I lower the price by $0.10, and it sells three times as much, I've still made money. Most of us have been in college before...What happens when you see "8 for a dollar" ramen noodles? You stock up, right? If you don't ever go in the store to see the prices, you'll likely be a lot less inclined toward impulse purchasing of stuff like that. Also in the impulse-purchasing category, you wouldn't see some other things in the store that you would consider purchasing, only to let it sit in your pantry or fridge.

          It's unfortunate that all this is the case, of course. It's rather likely that all these boosted sales would be outweighed by the cost-savings of implementing a fully-electronic store. Logistics would be a one-time expense...you'd need fewer staff...and costs would go down. Naturally, though, the corps only see things in terms of profit and growth...

    • I disagree, they're widely used by CS undergrads as well :-)

      But in all seriousness, handhelds are of great use and importance corporate america. I know many people that couldn't live for more than a day if they were disconnected from their Outlook contact list. While I agree that handhelds are worthless for children, and non tech-savvy parents, they do have a niche in society that uses them quite effectively.

      Palm isn't going anywhere just yet, and if this this [com.com] works out then they might even have an edge on the Pocket PC market.

    • I gotta say, I Completly disagree. Ive been a handheld user since the very first gen of Palm and have handed down several handhelds along the way. Any one common trait among everyone who has recieved one from me, or gotten on on my advice.. they become indespensible. They aren't the pet rocks of the 90/00's.. they are the wallets/phones/messengers/notpads of the future.
      • I agree. The big issue people have with Palms is they don't want an organizer, they want a hand-held computer, but don't want to pay for a PocketPC.

        A Palm/Handspring organizer is a great tool if you need an organizer. If you attend many meetings, communicate contact info to many people, track your expenses, appointments, etc.; then one of these is perfect.

        If you wanted to play full motion video, MP3s, and browse web pages wirelessly, you'd probably be happier with a PocketPC, even though it's a little bigger, heavier, and more expensive.
    • I think you are right, "parents and children" are unlikely to need to play "Wormz" at the mall--and if they do, they can use their cellphones. There's nothing on this $100 Zira that a normal (and free) cellphone can't provide.

      However, I think the idea of a cheap PDA is a good one in another field. Many's the time I've been at a collegues desk and we'll get into a "debate" about the molar mass of yttrbium or what the fifth-order solution to Schrodinger's equation is. At times like these, when your geeky rep is on the line, it is absolutely essential that your have some firepower to back yourself up. A handy periodic table app, or some high-powered number crunching will save your pimply, fishbelly-white ass someday. $100 is not to much to pay for this piece of mind--and the sleek silver case doesn't hurt either!

    • ePocrates (Score:5, Informative)

      by StCredZero ( 169093 ) on Tuesday October 08, 2002 @09:50AM (#4409377)
      Other kinds of grad students in different niches also use these.

      There is a formulary and clinical drug database program that is very popular with young doctors and medical students. It's called ePocrates [epocrates.com], and it updates itself automatically when you are online and you hotsync. This is very useful because the books are very heavy, and the info changes almost daily.

      I'd say this is a genuinely useful application.

      (I am not an employee of ePocrates. Just a friend of a med student.)

    • the only people still using them are CS grad students

      This is a joke, right? I'm not a CS grad student, and my whole life is in my PDA. I now go on business trips with the PDA and not a laptop, since I can go a week without charging and use an attached keyboard. And, everyone else I see in my company is using them also -- they've replaced the "Day Runner" book.

      Will parents and children buy these? Not for the sole function of being a parent or a child. But, anyone that wants to synchronize their 1000 address list on their computer with something that fits in their purse might want to spent $100 for this Palm device over the $500 for the WinCE device. And, they might happen to be a parent or a child.

    • The only people? (Score:2, Informative)

      by Shook ( 75517 )
      Practially EVERYBODY in medical school has one, and most doctors do too. Of course, considering most medical references run 4 megs or more, this 2MB device need not apply.

    • Re:parents and children? (Score:4, Informative)

      by ChaosDiscord ( 4913 ) on Tuesday October 08, 2002 @10:57AM (#4409770) Homepage Journal
      Once the novelty wears off (and it has), the ability to play Asteroids at a movie theater isn't all that great a selling point.

      If that's why people are buying PDAs, of course it's going to wear off. And I do know a few people who bought PDAs for novelty value, or purchased one without quite knowing what they would use it for. Sure enough, these people stopped using their PDAs within a few months.

      On the other hand, I knew exactly what I wanted a PDA for. I had been carrying a small datebook and pen with me. This significantly helped keep my life organized. It also provided me with a place to write notes (work todo items, shopping lists, reminders to email people information). I also kept contact information for various people, mostly phone numbers, in it.

      On the down side, every year I got a new datebook. Any information I wanted from the previous datebook had to be manually copied to the new one. If my datebook was lost or damaged, any information in it was lost. The physical book didn't make it easy to reorganize the information, to collect the scattered notes to identify which are still relevant and which aren't.

      I needed a smart datebook. And so I bought a Palm III.

      My Palm was exactly what I needed. Appointments actually beeped to remind me. I could easily reorganize information without my address book turning into a message of scratched out information or pages thin from repeated erasing. I have effectively unlimited scratch paper for notes which I use to keep all sorts of useful information.

      I'm on my third Palm (III -> V because I was sick of replacing the batteries and wanted a smaller palm, V -> Vx because I was starting to read e-books and needed more space). I use my Palm several times per day and I really value it. I know a number of people who feel the same way about their Palms.

      PDAs are not just a fad. Sure, some people got them because of the fad, but I don't care about those people (in this context at least). There is a real market of people who value a good PDA. These people are the ones that continue to buy Palm (or PalmOS devices) over the various Windows based PDAs because they know that Palm got it right. Mostly people following the fad, people who don't know what they want, are drawn to the shiny Windows based PDAs. Many serious PDA users see no need for Palms to upgrade to ARM processors. Sure, more processing power would be nice, but my Palm does everything I need. I don't need games, I don't need video, I don't need MP3 support. I need a smart datebook, address book, and notepad that I can back up on my computer. The Palm does exactly this. I'm really frustrated at the superficial media which keeps reporting "Look at all of the advances in Windows PDAs, Palm hasn't advanced at all. Palm is on its way down." I know many serious Palm users, but I've never seen a serious PDA user with a Windows PDA. Serious users know that Palm gets it right, and Microsoft focuses on superficial glitz.

      • Re:parents and children? (Score:5, Funny)

        by legLess ( 127550 ) on Tuesday October 08, 2002 @11:35AM (#4410011) Journal
        Blockquothe the poster:
        I use my Palm several times per day and I really value it. I know a number of people who feel the same way about their Palms.
        Does this even need a punchline? :)
      • On the other hand, I knew exactly what I wanted a PDA for.

        On the other hand there are people who bought a PDA neither because it is trendy, nor because they knew what it would do. I bought a used Palm III because I had some vauge idea that it would help me get orginised, keep phone numbers better then my cell phone maybe, and beep before meetings so I didn't miss them. And of corse if all else failed I could play hack (a rogue ancester) while I was standing around.

        So here it is a good 5+ years later and I'm on my 3rd PalmOS PDA. It has definitly helped me orginise myself. I have also seen a lot of people buy them and fail to be helped, mostly because they decide what is important enough to put in the PDA and what they will "just remember" (and then promptly forget!). Not me. I've decided I can't remember squat. If I'm not about to do it right there and then, into the PDA it goes.

        There is a real market of people who value a good PDA. These people are the ones that continue to buy Palm (or PalmOS devices) over the various Windows based PDAs because they know that Palm got it right. Mostly people following the fad, people who don't know what they want, are drawn to the shiny Windows based PDAs.

        There is a real problem with that theory. It assumes all your customers know enough about PDAs to buy the right one. Someone else with a vague idea that a PDA might help them may well wonder into a store and buy the prettiest looking bright shiny object that says "PDA" on a box. Now you may decide they get what they deserve, a crappy PDA with a bright shiny box. However they have most likely picked their first and last PDA. If Palm had a good PDA to fit in a nice shiney box a lot of first time consumers might pick up the Palm for all the wrong reasons... and then the rest of their PDA buys will be for the right reasons.

        Remember the number one law of bisness: don't argue with a fool, take his money

      • "I know many serious Palm users, but I've never seen a serious PDA user with a Windows PDA."

        My brother in law is an ardent M$ hater and refuses to use M$ products. He refuses to associate with people who use M$ products for serious computing. Consequently, his circle of contacts ends up being open source bigots that click away on their Palms.

        People connect with each other based on factors of affinity. Many citizens of the /. community are biased toward open source and Anything-That-Isn't-Made-by-Microsoft ethics. Because these are two highly important values to them, these people will tend to form social and professional contacts around a preference for these ethics. In any social circle, there is always a tendency toward homogenity/conformity along the points of affinity. You and I tend to form relationships with people who are much like ourselves. In spite of all the PC rhetoric over the years, there is little diversity in our relationships when our relationships are formed with our most important values in view.

        For this reason, the commenter above erroneously concludes that because none of the people he knows use Pocket PC units, the PocketPC unit cannot be taken seriously as a PDA. ChaosDiscord has failed to recognize that the Pocket PDA can indeed be considered a powerful and useful PDA because he has forgotten that his social circle does not represent the overall market for PDAs.

        I have been using a PDA for five years and have had five different units. None of them were Palms because I didn't like the aesthetics or the functionality. Yet many people who I know and respect use Palms and love them. I also know many PocketPC user who also love them.

        It seems that Palm is losing market share to the Pocket PC platform. I do not think that Microsoft will be able to do to Palm what it did to Netscape but I suspect that both platforms will enjoy sizeable segments of the market because of the strengths of each platform.

        Most of us at /. are bigots and that's what makes IT and /. cool: there's a lot of passion and a whole boatload of variety to make for a very fun computing experience.

        • True, my social and professional circles limit my exposure to the overall population. My anecdotal evidence isn't statistically significant. But I don't think it's as limited as you suggest. My social and professional circles include a number of Microsoft fans, and of those Microsoft fans those who use PDAs prefer Palms over PocketPCs. One of the biggest Microsoft fans (and an ex-Microsoftie who only left to marry his wife), is a huge Palm fan and is very down on the several PocketPCs he has owned or worked professionally with. Not statistically significant, but probably a fair barometer opinion on these devices. If there is a noteworthy bias, it's that my social and professional circles are dominantly technical. I can't really speak for non-technical users.

          All that said, it's a fair challenge, and I appreciate your bringing it up.

          For this reason, the commenter above erroneously concludes that because none of the people he knows use Pocket PC units, the PocketPC unit cannot be taken seriously as a PDA.

          Just to clairify, I take PocketPCs perfectly seriously. They are perfectly functional PDAs, and for certain uses are superior to Palms. However, I believe that for core PDA functionality (Address book, date book, memos, to do list, long battery life, simple interface, small size), Palms are superior.

          • My experience is different. At my company, all the palm users leave there palms sitting at there desks, occasionally using it to take notes while the pocketPC users carry thier devices around constantly makeing notes and scheduling meetings.

            Everyones experience is different I guess.
    • Sorry but this isn't true. My Palm is an enormously useful thing to have around. I wouldn't make half the meetings and other deadlines that I must remember each week if the Palm weren't there to tell me. It also acts as an address book, notebook, alarm clock and more besides.


      It was worth every penny to me and I don't see them as a fad at all. Clearly lots of people think the same way considering that there are more PDAs than ever on the market to choose from.


      Personally I think PDAs will eventually 'converge' with mobile phones, mp3 players etc. but until the battery life and form factor of such hybrid devices (or PocketPC devices for that matter) comes anywhere close to my Palm, I'll stick with what I have.

    • Damn Bejeweled (Score:4, Funny)

      by unicron ( 20286 ) <{ten.tencht} {ta} {norcinu}> on Tuesday October 08, 2002 @11:50AM (#4410117) Homepage
      I got a Handspring Visor Prism for my birthday. One night, I show my wife Bejeweled. I want my PDA back..I really do.

  • The one killer app I see... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Docrates ( 148350 ) on Tuesday October 08, 2002 @09:24AM (#4409247) Homepage
    Is for those supermarket and logistics people that get to buy $800-$1200 rugged versions of palm for their inventory and tracking applications. Somehow I think that 10 cheap palm devices last longer than one expensive tough one.
    • Put a barcode reader on this, and you'll have proprietors of even small-time grocers in the (ahem) palm of your hand. Especially for the price of a few tanks of petrol. :)
      • You mean like this thing? [barcodereaders.com]
        They're kinda expensive, but I think they're exactly what you're talking about. I had to research them about 6 months ago or so, and if I remember correctly, the price is not too bad here in the states.
      • A friend of mine does exactly that at CompUSA. He uses a palm with a barcode reader to scan item barcodes and send them to a networked printer to print new price labels. Don't know exactly how it works tho.

        Triv

  • parents /or/ chidren (Score:5, Funny)

    by Bandman ( 86149 ) <`bandman' `at' `gmail.com'> on Tuesday October 08, 2002 @09:24AM (#4409251) Homepage
    so just who exactly is /not/ a parent or a child?
    We are ALL children of SOMEBODY...

    it's probably too early....

  • Geez (Score:5, Funny)

    by ksplatter ( 573000 ) on Tuesday October 08, 2002 @09:25AM (#4409255)
    No Matter How cheap they make those things I'll never get one again. I need a to-do list to remind me to update my calander to set off an alarm when I need to write a memo. Just a waste of my time.
  • why is that more and more IT stuff has to be covered in that horrible silver effect plastic? its not cool and it makes them look cheap, there are a lot of good laptops out there ruined by crappy silver oh_look_how_cool plastic. give me titanium anyday but then at $99 it is quite cheap already..... hmmmm, looks like you get what you pay for

  • And no colo[u]r screen ... (Score:3, Funny)

    by Draoi ( 99421 ) <.draiocht. .at. .mac.com.> on Tuesday October 08, 2002 @09:27AM (#4409270)
    Thank goodness ... [palm.com]

  • 2 Meg of ram? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by TheLoneCabbage ( 323135 ) on Tuesday October 08, 2002 @09:28AM (#4409275) Homepage

    With only 2 meg of RAM it's not going to be worth much more than an organizer. And you can buy those now for $20 (and some look much cooler than this).

    Personaly for my tastes just sell me the husk, and let me buy the memmory as an option. I would think that a unit with NO memmory would be cheaper to manufacture and the modularity would allow it to have a wider market apeal (for the same manufactureing line).

  • A few features of zire.. (Score:5, Informative)

    by heytal ( 173090 ) <hetal DOT rach AT gmail DOT com> on Tuesday October 08, 2002 @09:28AM (#4409276) Homepage
    It has no backlight.It has date-book, address-book, memo-pad, and to-do-list manager. Also has a calculator, a palm expense program, and a clock.

    A good review at techtv.com [techtv.com].

  • In other Palm news (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward

    Palm taps into pager networks
    By Ian Fried
    Special to ZDNet News
    October 8, 2002, 5:02 AM PT
    URL: http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1105-961154.html
    PalmSource struck a deal Monday that will let new wireless handhelds running the Palm operating system take advantage of older networks designed for pagers.

    The software and operating system unit of handheld maker Palm said it is working with Dallas-based WebLink Wireless to pave the way for Palm OS-based devices with the built-in ability to run on WebLink's ReFlex network. WebLink spokeswoman Lori Burzynski said that there are a number of companies licensed by Motorola to create devices that use the ReFlex standards and that one of them should have a Palm-based device on the market by the first half of next year.

    Although much of the hype around wireless networks has centered on newer, high-speed data setups, there are some advantages to older pager networks like WebLink's. Such networks have broader coverage than many cellular systems and also work inside buildings, where cellular service is less reliable. They're also acceptable in places like hospitals, where cell phones are not allowed because of the possibility of interference with medical equipment.

    "It's pretty pervasive," PalmSource vice president Albert Chu said of the ReFlex network. "It gets into places where cell phones and other (devices) can't."

    Despite such advantages, the demise of pagers at the hands of cell phones has put a major crimp on the balance sheets of a number of wireless carriers that specialized in low-speed data devices like pagers.

    WebLink Wireless itself emerged from Chapter 11 bankruptcy reorganization last month. Rivals Metrocall, Arch Wireless and Motient, have gone through similar processes. WebLink had planned to merge with Metrocall, but that deal fell apart, and WebLink is now an independent private company owned largely by its former creditors.

    PalmSource was not deterred by WebLink's financial position, according to Chu, who said the company is in better financial shape as a result of its restructuring.

    "I think they are emerging stronger than they were," Chu said. With the bankruptcy, "they are able to shed their past financial mistakes."

    Networks such as WebLink's are capable of handling data suited to slower speeds--short text messages, for example--but aren't the preferred choice for delivering graphics or Web pages. But Chu said while such networks may lack the performance of newer ones, they can still offer some wireless access and a good value.

    The deal with WebLink is the first time that PalmSource has negotiated directly with wireless carriers, but Chu said the company expects to do more work with carriers to make sure they understand the possibilities of working with the Palm OS.

  • ZIRE: an extinct language of New Caledonia (Score:5, Insightful)

    by XNormal ( 8617 ) on Tuesday October 08, 2002 @09:29AM (#4409283) Homepage

    ZIRE: an extinct language of New Caledonia [ethnologue.com]

    SIL code: SIH

    Region: Bourail, coastal plain.

    Alternate names: ZIRA, SIRHE, SICHE, SÎSHËË, NERË

    Classification: Austronesian, Malayo-Polynesian, Central-Eastern, Eastern Malayo-Polynesian, Oceanic, Central-Eastern Oceanic, Remote Oceanic, New Caledonian, Southern, South, Zire-Tiri.

    Comments: Zire is reported to be extinct. No mother tongue speakers. There are apparently a few who learned it as second language. Grammar. Extinct.

  • From the specs (Dragonball EZ + USB) it aught to make a faily decent Linux unit. Perhaps you could even connect an USB kbd to it for proper typing (less portable though...).
    By using Qtopia [trolltech.com] you could have proper hardwriting recognision too.
    It's a shame that Palm insists on not letting the screen fill the entire front, but rather waste almost one third of the possible area with a static input area.

  • Here is a link to The Register article [theregister.co.uk] concerning the Zire, and covers the m105 (which can also sell for $99).

  • I just don't get it (Score:5, Informative)

    by i0wnzj005uck4 ( 603384 ) on Tuesday October 08, 2002 @09:34AM (#4409312) Homepage
    Okay. No backlight and 2 meg of ram. The Palm m105 has 8 meg of ram, and a backlight, plus that clock button and retails for the same price (I got mine for 10$ lower!) with identical features. Oh wait, the m105 also comes with the Office applications for spreadsheets and word docs on your handheld. Oh, and the m105 uses palmOS 3.5 while the Zire uses 4.1. But aside from that, the change is mostly cosmetic. Thoughts on this?
    • The introduction of the M series for Palm was the beginning of the end for them.

      * No compelling new features, minus the to-do/calendar view (which doesn't display alarms or notes)

      * Switchable faceplates? Surely a sign that they've run out of *really* good ideas.

      * Color? What about battery life? I thought Palm had proven color wasn't a must-have feature.

      * Still-broken cradle drain problem.

      * Wireless solution for the masses still not solved.

      * SD/MMC Card that the technophiles already despised ("Secure" digital? We all know how much we like hardware that says that)

      * m130: $250 un-upgradeable hardware. What a plan!

      Palm just lost it. They had a dreat idea, ran with it, and then fumbled. Now CE is slowly replacing them. Zire just reaffirms that they still don't get it anymore.
      • Although I wouldn't second all of your remarks, you're mostly right.

        Palm should have done the licensing deal sooner. IMHO Sony is the last innovator in the Palm league. Palm would be mostly dead without Sony.

        If Palm had licenced their OS sooner, we could possibly enjoy a bunch of wonderful PDA/mobile phone combos. But Palm was closed those days and Nokia chose Symbian instead.

        What a big strategic fault of Palm.
      • Good thing you're not massively biased against Palm, eh?

        - I have a colour m515 and the screen is much clearer even for mono text than my old mono Palms/Handsprings. I don't really care too much about battery life, I just charge it every few days. As long as I don't go into the wilderness for days on end it's not a problem (and if I did, why would I need a Palm?)

        - I've not had any problems with cradle drain

        - wireless is dependent on roll-out of GPRS, CDMA2000, and WiFi, and on uptake of Bluetooth mobile phones. Palm can't do much about those, wireless has not taken off big-time on PocketPC either.

        - SD/MMC works just fine in non-secure mode to store ordinary date - SD is about 4x faster than MMC, smaller than Compact Flash, can do I/O cards (with SDIO, like CF), and is non-proprietary and low-cost (unlike Memory Stick). I'm a technophile and I don't despise it - speak for yourself.

        - m130 with non-upgradeable hardware (presumably you mean the OS is not in flash) - I prefer flashable devices myself, so here I would agree with you, but every Handspring before the Treo line was non-flash and they seemed to do OK.

        I am not a huge Palm fan (currently trying to work around the sudden USB death syndrome that is not meant to affect m515s but does, stopping hotsync from working), and they have produced less exciting products than Sony, but they have done some things right, which is why I got an m515.

        • > As long as I don't go into the wilderness for
          > days on end it's not a problem (and if I did,
          > why would I need a Palm?)

          Because you have your planetarium [palmgear.com] on it?

          Yes, it will fit in that size memory. Lack of backlight is a bit of a problem, but anyone in the wilderness likely has a flashlight. You would likely prefer a red LED flashlight to the green backlight anyway, since it will tend to preserve your night vision.

    • Re:I just don't get it (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Palm's market for this thing doesn't care much about stats, they wouldn't know how to interpret them anyway. And honestly, they will never fill that 2MB anyway. They will like the look of the Zire, though, a lot more than they'd like the look of the M100 series.

      The big difference is for Palm. The Zire is much cheaper to produce than the M100 series. Those $100 M105s probably cost Palm $60 to make. A $100 Zire probably costs Palm $30 to make. Considering dealer markup, etc. Palm probably makes 3x more on a $100 Zire than a $100 m105.

    • Only major difference (Score:5, Informative)

      by banda ( 206438 ) on Tuesday October 08, 2002 @10:33AM (#4409627)
      The Zire is rechargeable like the old V series.
      The M105 uses alkaline batteries.

      Personally, I prefer the alkaline batteries. I can buy new batteries anywhere. I can't always plug in a charger and sit around for a couple hours.

  • A review.. (Score:2, Informative)

    by heytal ( 173090 )
    There's a review here [internet.com].
    According to the review, zire is amongst the lightest of the palm family.

  • two nice features (Score:3, Interesting)

    by night_flyer ( 453866 ) on Tuesday October 08, 2002 @09:38AM (#4409329) Homepage
    1) rechargable batteries
    2) usb support

    • Re:two nice features (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Pulzar ( 81031 )
      Exactly, I was surprised to see those two, which are usually only in more expensive units ($199+). A refurbirshed Visor Edge at $149 used to be the cheapest unit with rechargable batteries and USB.

      If it had 4MB, I'd get one right now :(.

      Anybody know any other PDAs with rechargable batteries, usb, and at least 4mb of ram at below $150?

      • It's the American Revo clone with 16 megs of ram, keyboard, and rechargable built-in battery. Serial only, but you can find them under $100 when you can find them at all.
    • All things considered, I'd rather have none of palm's usb port monitoring software on my usb ports. Sync over serial is fast enough as long as you aren't switching out several megs at a time. Besides, avantgo takes the most time during a sync.

  • only 4 buttons (Score:5, Funny)

    by abe ferlman ( 205607 ) <bgtrio@ya[ ].com ['hoo' in gap]> on Tuesday October 08, 2002 @09:42AM (#4409339) Homepage Journal
    Since it only has 4 buttons instead of 6, a lot of games for the palm pilot are not going to work properly on this thing. Maybe you could play zap2000! by remapping the power button (!) to fire and neglecting key number 6, but at the very least it'll be a pain.

    If this thing is for consumers, games are important.

  • When some enterprising young geek (or geekette) puts linux on the thing, installs Apache, puts the unit on the WWW and posts the Eureeka! on /.

    From everyone's perspective "It was worth the effort"

  • What a waste. This thing has no backlight (so you can't use it in the dark) and only 2 Mb (so you can't store many documents or programs on it). It's cheaper, but only by a few dollars, so the lower price isn't much of a differentiator.

    My PRIMARY utility for a PDA is for electronic books, so this thing is worthless for me. I've found that the calendar/ phone book / to-do applications are fun but really aren't better than paper. I suspect that many others will come to the same conclusion.

    They will need to drop the price significantly (say, to $5-$10) for this to be worthwhile.

  • You can pick up an older model Palm with more memory on eBay or the like for the same price, or lower, and not pay tax. here's one [ebay.com] (not mine, just an example).
  • Looks like the main use of this model will be for people tippy-toeing their way into the handheld scene. It'd be great for people trying to shed paper and pen scheduling, and an excellent, cheap and convenient way to carry around email through Outlook sync. The only downside of this is the two megs of ram -- come on, RAM is CHEAP, they should have been able to put a full 8 in there or at least 4 for the same price. Oh well.
    • come on, RAM is CHEAP, they should have been able to put a full 8 in there or at least 4 for the same price.

      RAM also uses power all the time (PalmOS and most other PDAs use RAM as "long term storage" so it has to be powered all the time). At a guess the amount of power the RAM draws has a bigger effect on battery life for people that only turn the PDA on to check some apointments and turn it off (i.e. people that don't play games or take lots of notes on a PDA).

      So sure, you could up it to 4M of RAM for almost no money, but then the battery life drops signifigantly. Or the weight and cost goes up as you add more battery.

      Hey at least it's not as bad as it use to be where more RAM needed more CPU power to keep search times low (more RAM leads to the assumption that people put more stuff in the PDA...; but now even th elow end Palm CPU is decently fast for searching the amout of text people tend to keep in 8M).

      Of corse there is the other issue...keeping the $99 model as berift of features as possiable makes the "upsell" simpler, and failing that may increse the cahnce that people will upgrade.

  • See how far we've come!! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by PeterChenoweth ( 603694 ) on Tuesday October 08, 2002 @09:56AM (#4409408)
    So in 8 years of progress Palm has gone from a 1MB Palm Professional with a backlight, a strange input character set, Notes, Calendar, To-Do, Appointments and Expense. To a 2MB Palm Zire with no backlight, same strange input character set, Notes, Calendar, To-Do, Appointments, and Expense.

    It's no great wonder that Palm Inc. is dying a slow death.
    • The people behind Palm had studies that showed that the greatest part of the market for palmtops are people that already have a desktop computer, a home computer, a laptop. Heck, with a price tag of hundreds of dollars to start with, only geeks and your boss could afford one, and only AFTER buying said devices.

      Those are better fit to run full screen, full motion, full color videos and play mp3s. I don't need that on my palmtop. Besides, how long a video can you fit in even 64 MB of RAM ?

      That's not what a PDA (Personal Digital Assistant) is for. That's why these should be black and white, lowres. That's what rules about Palms. That's what sucks about $700 Windoze CE devices. If I want to play a video game, I buy a Gameboy, that's much cheaper.

      Besides, Notes, Calendar, To-Do, Appointments, and Expense are only the surface. You're free to add dozens of other little softwares. The Hacker's Diet. AvantGo, to cite a few.

      If you want to whine about the lack of evolution in Palm devices, complain about the fact that batteries still last for about three weeks only.
      • Those are better fit to run full screen, full motion, full color videos and play mp3s. I don't need that on my palmtop. Besides, how long a video can you fit in even 64 MB of RAM ?

        That's not what a PDA (Personal Digital Assistant) is for. That's why these should be black and white, lowres. That's what rules about Palms. That's what sucks about $700 Windoze CE devices. If I want to play a video game, I buy a Gameboy, that's much cheaper.


        I used to think that, then I bought a CE device for $250 (not $700!). With a 128mb flash card ($40) I can easily store an hour of video, if I want. To be honest I don't very often. I do use it for mp3s though, saves carrying another unit around. I play a lot of cool games on there, again, saves having to carry another unit around. So for $250 and one small device I replace your 3 devices costing ($150+$80+$200). Nice :) Add full colour (good for games, maps and photo editing) and web browsing, 802.11b, etc and you've got a pretty persuasive deal. Well it persuaded me to not replace my broken palm V.

        Of course some things suck: (1) it's microsoft (2) it crashes more than palmos (3) the battery life is crap and (4) the box is a bit bigger. Take your pick, I won't be going back to palm in a hurry.
        • Of course some things suck: (1) it's microsoft (2) it crashes more than palmos(3) the battery life is crap and (4) the box is a bit bigger.

          the zaurus fixes 1 and 2. I guess 3 and 4 would depend on the particular unit you compare it too. You can get a zaurus for $350 some places. Plus add built-in keyboard, and CF slot *and* SD slot. I use the CF slot for communication while using the SD slot for addition memory.

          I agree with you that a "handheld pc" has a lot of advantages, I can't see myself every going back to a regular palm. Music, movies, better games, emulators,... I use my zaurus *exactly* as I use by regular PC, with the same applications as my desktop, OpenSSH, XMMS, Opera ( ok, on my desktop I use mozilla ), ...

          • Like I said, my PocketPC device cost $250 (Maestro), it also has both SD and CF slots. Bargain :)

            I'd like to try the Zarus, but to be honest I'm just not convinced, mainly due to the small userbase==few thirdparty apps problem. I'll keep an eye on it though! A built in keyboard might be nice.

            • I'd like to try the Zarus, but to be honest I'm just not convinced, mainly due to the small userbase==few thirdparty apps problem.

              I find this is more than balanced by the Linux==lots of OS software to be ported factor. I have yet to think of an app I'd like for my Zaurus that I can't download for little or no cost.

    • So in 8 years of progress Palm has gone from a 1MB Palm Professional with a backlight, a strange input character set, Notes, Calendar, To-Do, Appointments and Expense. To a 2MB Palm Zire with no backlight, same strange input character set, Notes, Calendar, To-Do, Appointments, and Expense.

      I argued this very similar point once on comp.sys.palmtops.pilot and got the following response:

      In that time a top-of-the-line PalmOS device has gone from 160x160 monochrome with a 16 MHZ CPU, 4M of RAM and a unique internal expansion slot... to 320x480 16-bit color with a 66 MHz CPU, 16M of RAM, and an expansion slot that's shared with digital cameras and MP3 players... the lightweight devices have gone from 160x160 monochrome with 16MHZ and 2M of RAM to 320x320 color with 33MHz and 16M of RAM.

      The operating system has added a new file system, a new network stack, and a whole new collection of standard libraries... and it's still backwards compatible and mostly forwards compatible with the IIIx and V.

      Meanwhile, the top-of-the-line Windows Powered device has gone from 240x320 8-bit color with a 70 MHz CPU, 16M of RAM, and a standard CF expansion slot to 240x320 16-bit color, a 400 MHz CPU that's not any faster than the previous 200 MHz one, 64M of RAM, and a less capable expansion slot. The lightweight model has gone from 40 MHz to 200 MHz, 8-bit color to 16-bit color.

      The operating system has changed the user interface incompatibly, and added new drivers and applications.

      So my figuring is that in the time it's taken low-end PPCs to cost as little as top-of-the-line Palms used to, Palm's increased CPU speed 4 times, display resolution 6 times, color depth 16 times, and memory 4-8 times. Windows powered devices have increased CPU speed 3-5 times, desplay resolution not at all, color depth 2 times, and memory 4 times.

      The operating system has had significant UI makeovers and new apps, but the underlying functionality hasn't changed and some functionality has actually been removed from the UI.

      If you extend the timeline back to the first models, the differences are even more striking. The first Palm only had 128K of RAM!

      So don't tell me the Palm camp has been standing still, and expect me to believe you have the vaguest idea what you're talking about.

      Something to think about. Although having said that, I do think that Palm are dying a slow death. If OS 5 doesn't take off (and there is nothing radically different about the UI which will make most people go "oh, nothings changed") then they're going to be pretty much shafted.

    • The new high-level Palms come out at the end of the month.

      One is a 16MB Palm "Tungsten T" with a hirez color screen, bluetooth, a 175mhz Arm Processor, Palm OS 5, headphone jack, SD slot, and Bluetooth. And a telescoping shell that closes up to cover the Graffiti area, fwiw.

      The other is the "Tungsten W" which is the new wireless model, which is kind of like the next-gen version of the Handspring Treo, except that it's made by Palm, and it's not a handset (it uses a headset jacked into the unit for cellphone conversation). Also Palm OS 5, same processor.

      It's no great wonder that Palm Inc. is dying a slow death.


      Only if by "slow death" you mean continuing to totally dominate their market and expand into new market segments. My guess is the Zire will be a big hit in the high school market that will lead to even more sales in the years to come as Zire users upgrade to newer more powerful Palms.

      Jon Acheson

  • Makes sense IFF street price is lower... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by dpbsmith ( 263124 ) on Tuesday October 08, 2002 @10:03AM (#4409441) Homepage
    Like others, I'm scratching my head at this if the price is really $99.

    The Palm m105 really does cost $99. (A quick check at Yahoo stores shows: Palm Online Store $99.00; Circuit City $99.95; Datavision $99.94; BuyDig.com $90.00).

    Maybe the Zire costs Palm much less and is sold to retailers for much less; and, as with some other products, maybe the price at Palm's store will continue to be $99, but street prices at the Best Buys, Staples, and Wal*Marts of the world will be much lower.

    If the price were really $58.88 or $49.95 or "39.95 after $30 mail-in rebate" I'd buy one for my wife in an instant.

  • Passphrase Locker (Score:2, Informative)

    by Enigmia Man ( 320896 )
    People have mentioned previously that they have no use for the Palm PDA. The best use for the Palm is as an encrypted passphrase locker. If this $99 palm came with that preinstalled, it would help lots of people keep their passphrases secure. Ever count how many different PINS, passwords, passphrases you need to have for all your accounts? It is staggering. I'll bet a lot of people use the same one over and over - a tremendous security risk. With an encrypted passphrase locker, (perhaps such as ccrypt [mikemccollister.com] or others [palmopensource.com] ) it makes it easy to create a new one for each account. And it also allows you to make passphrases that aren't so easy to remember, such as "IH3ART/.OK?" What some folks don't realize is that their passphrases into web sites are completely readable by the admin. If they use the same one over and over, they are asking for trouble.

  • No flash ROM... (Score:2, Informative)

    by Opiuman ( 172825 )
    Which means: The Zire is not OS upgradeable... No Palm OS updates, nor Linux (not that you'd be currently able to cram Linux into a Palm's Flash ROM -- but that might change in the future). The information about this is not available in the online specs, only if you go to the feature compare chart [palm.com] are you able to learn this (almost at the bottom). Is Palm trying to obscure this information?
    But I guess the target audience could care less about upgrading their OS. My guess is that they would care even less about a PDA in general...
  • I see the same criticisms repeated over and over: only the two buttons (not including scrolling), slower, less memory... but I think a lot of people are missing the point.

    The Zire isn't a PDA in the "small computer with a stylus" sense. You aren't supposed to turn this into a game box or use it as a tiny replacement for an office computer. It's intended as an organizer - the fact that it has extra memory for one or two other apps (assuming you can get them to the Zire) and can sync with your computer is just a nice perk.

    And the fact that Palm is marketing the Zire in a different way is also crucial. This is the PDA for people who might otherwise think of PDAs as expensive toys. It's the PDA you give to your mother as a Christmas gift, not something for the "mobile professional."

    The only practical problem with it is a lack of backlighting. The monochrome screen is supposed to have a nice contrast, so this probably won't be trouble on the level of the Gameboy Advance, but you'd better hope you don't need to check your memos when you're on a nighttime bus.
  • Why would I spend $99 on a monochrome, no-backlight Palm when I can get:

    o 256 Color screen
    o Complete Calendar/Organizer/Todo/etc.
    o Contact Management
    o Wireless, always-on Internet access (GPRS)
    o Built-in IMAP and POP3 support
    o SMS, MMS, WAP
    o T9 text input (far faster than I could ever get with Graffiti)
    o Voice recorder
    o Voice control
    o Built-in Bluetooth and Infrared
    o SyncML for synchronization with my desktop
    o 4-5 days battery life
    o 1/3 the size/weight of a Palm
    o intuitive Joystick for menu navigation

    Oh yeah, it's a cell phone, too. And I can use it anywhere in the world. And it was only $50 after various AT&T and Best Buy rebates.

    T68i [sonyericsson.com]
  • Pick up a used Palm 3 on ebay for about $60 and two sets of rechargable batteries. All the people buying the newer color Palms are dumping their old Palms for dirt cheap prices. You'll have all of the buttons of a real palm pilot, maybe more memory, and you won't be contributing to the toxic gadget-fills that we Americans are creating with our products that could easily be used for 10 years, but get thrown away after 3 years because they aren't cool anymore.

  • Not a bad looking unit for the price.

    THAT'S what SHE said. [rimshot]

  • I checked the prices... (Score:5, Informative)

    by puppetman ( 131489 ) on Tuesday October 08, 2002 @11:11AM (#4409858) Homepage
    of this thing in Canada - $99 US, $169 CDN at Future Shop [futureshop.ca].

    But I can get the Sony Clie PEG-SL10 with 4x the RAM, Palm OS 4.1, and a 320x320 screen (the Zire is 160x160) for $60 CDN more, plus a way nicer layout, etc.

    This thing needs to be $60 US, $100 CDN. It's a rip-off at this price.
  • throw in a couple of nimH batteries and you have 8 meg ram (expandable up to 16), grey scale with back light, on a dragonball ez (6800 assembly, makes hacking a joy)...

    True, I don't think this is available at Target, but you can get new Neo's from E-bay for $80...
    Thats cheaper than the titanium case! (My secret super-hero power is the ability to break stuff, so yes I needed a case that costs just as much as the pda... if only to postpone the inevitable)

    Uhm, why would I want a zire, again?!

  • Is this a typo? Processor
    Motorola Dragonball EZ 16MHz Processor

    My Handspring Visor Prism (which is old) has a 33MHz processor in it.
    Then again, they are pitching it as just a souped up Day Planner replacement...

    -T

  • "it looks like they're trying to market this thing to people like parents and child"

    isnt that uh, everyone alive?

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