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Hardware

PC Prices to Rise? 271

Posted by michael from the death-taxes-and-the-price-of-ram dept.
guinan writes "The Economist is running a story about how now that PC makers think the worst is over, it's high time to raise prices. In particular, the focus is on the steady price of flat-panels and a possible end to the decline we've seen in the price of memory. Granted, most of the /. crowd build their own boxes, but if you want to buy a computer from a major brand better go for one soon while you can still get all the perks."
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PC Prices to Rise? More

PC Prices to Rise?

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  • um, ya right. (Score:3, Informative)

    by AA0 ( 458703 ) on Sunday April 07, 2002 @12:56PM (#3299338) Homepage
    "possible end to the decline we've seen in the price of memory."

    What is this person smoking? Memory price is almost triple what it used to be.
  • Memory prices have doubled in six months. What decline?
    • Memory prices have doubled in six months. What decline?

      The decline that ended 6 months ago?

      It was a sweet decline while it lasted. 256MB RAM cost me far less than 128MB had a few months earlier.
    • The phrase "decline in the price of memory" comes from the submitter, not the article. According to the article (and the market), "the cost of some chips has been steadily increasing."

      Oddly enough, the article points out that steadily rising component prices may actually encourage some companies (e.g. Hynix) to get back into a market they had recently abandoned, despite shrinking margins. It also mentions that since Dell tends to pass changes in component prices quickly on to customers (for better or, in this case, worse), that it may actually be a competitive disadvantage WRT Compaq or HP, since those companies sell to retail at somewhat fixed prices.

      What a strange business - when technical innovation is the driving force in a market, the usual business laws don't seem to apply...

      • Re:Not according to the article (Score:5, Insightful)

        by MindStalker ( 22827 ) <mindstalker@@@gmail...com> on Sunday April 07, 2002 @01:36PM (#3299474) Journal
        Well I know from personal experience, that I have a hard time latly making any money building systems for people. With complete systems available from gateway for 600 its really hard to compete, I've got to be able to sell the same system for maybe 450 to be able to sell as I can't provide the same level of warrenty, putting together a complete system with monitor and a legal copy of windows at that price leaves me with no profit.
        • You are preaching to the choir...it seems like the only money you can make in the PC business comes from fixing/upgrading PC's from Dell, Compaq, Gateway and the like. It would be great if all the little PC builders could somehow pull resources to compete against the big guys rather than run each other out of business.

          My business deals in such low quantity that it is difficult to even buy parts at less than retail...maybe that is part of the problem.
  • ...about the price of flat panels. CRTs are fine for now. I've yet to see a flat panel display that can equal or rival a CRT. Not to say that it won't happen, it just ain't here yet.

    -Sam

    • It depends on the purpose of the flatpanel in question - if I were a hardcore quake III player, then an LCD would be unacceptable. However, as I mostly use my computer for doing math, and the games I do play are old, the savings in desk space afforded by an LCD just might be worth it when I go to purchase my new system this summer.

  • Major brands: (Score:2, Funny)

    by joshjs ( 533522 )
    if you want to buy a computer from a major brand better go for one soon while you can still get all the perks

    Perks?
  • if you want to buy a computer from a major brand better go for one soon while you can still get all the perks

    But who would want a mini tower with onboard video and sound and almost no room to upgrade?

  • Prices Are Up (Score:2, Informative)

    by Dak RIT ( 556128 )
    Apple announced it was increasing its prices on the iMac $100 each in March, and ended a promotion on its LCDs. Since then IBM, Dell, Sony, Compaq and Gateway (that I know of, probably others too) have announced they're rising prices 10% to 30%.

    Memory has already doubled to tripled in price, and LCDs are up 25%.

    The time for bargains was over a month ago, if you buy today or wait 2 weeks not much is going to change.

    • Apple announced it was increasing its prices on the iMac $100 each in March, and ended a promotion on its LCDs.

      Yeah, but then they started another LCD promo almost the same as the first (and since both LCD promos were "buy a G4 and LCD and we give you stuff" it could be a G4 promo...)

      The time for bargains was over a month ago, if you buy today or wait 2 weeks not much is going to change.

      Maybe...or maybe you will wait 2 weeks and find the prices have gone up more.

  • Most analysts are predicting that current price increases are reaching a plateau.... now is not necessarily the time to buy (unless you buy like today), as price increases are already happening througout the industry, as can be seen in this article [com.com].

    The flat panels price increase is due almost entirely to a shortage of one of the key ingredients used in manufacture, which is supposedly only temporary.

    • Re:flat panels (Score:1)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Two relevant quotes from that article:
      Supplies of flat panels are expected to increase in the third quarter as more factories come online. Chip suppliers to the flat-panel industry are also increasing supply. "The flat-panel industry is spending like crazy," said [Merrill Lynch analyst Joe] Osha
      Last year, some manufacturers were selling memory for below cost. But prices for memory components are beginning to stabilize. Dell Computer, which has been changing configurations on its PCs to blunt the impact of component costs, said Thursday that costs have been flattening. The company also indicated that because of changes in its own operations, the company will likely be in a position again to lower costs.
      That seems to contradict this Economist article a lot - especially with Dell saying there were in a tight spot, but think that they may soon be coming out. If anything this would make me think about waiting to buy a computer. (Then again, we always think about waiting to buy a computer.)

  • Price is a weird deal (Score:5, Interesting)

    by clion999 ( 565741 ) on Sunday April 07, 2002 @01:06PM (#3299383)
    Many people actively want to spend more. One of my relatively clueless neighbors asked me to bless his decision to spend $2700 on a new Dell. It was top of the line. I knew he did a bit of word processing and spent the rest of the time at home playing flight simulator games. He's not an avid, fast-twitch gamer. I tried to talk him into a $700 system. He wouldn't budge. He wanted to spend that much. He wanted to make sure it was "upwardly compatible" and "expandable", even though he would just spend another $2700 in a few years. There are plenty of suckers who have too much money. It's fine by me if the computer companies take it. The only thing that worries me is that they'll increase the cost of low-end systems that I like. It's been a long time since I did anything but basic coding and editing.

    • Re:Price is a weird deal (Score:2, Insightful)

      by ergo98 ( 9391 )
      I agree that a lot of people grossly overpay, however you mentioned that he plays flight sims: These are among the most hardware intensive games available (i.e. A machine that can kick ass in Quake 3 might slog and churn playing Flight Sim 2002). Sure you can turn down the features, but he if he spends lots of time playing then he might be exactly the sort of person to appreciate having every slider near the max, with extensive ground traffic, clouds, weather, etc.

    • It's called "snob appeal" (Score:5, Insightful)

      by FaithAndReason ( 112179 ) on Sunday April 07, 2002 @01:29PM (#3299454)
      What your "clueless" neighbor wanted to you to "bless" was his decision to spend a huge amount of money on a computer merely to demonstrate his commitment to being on the cutting edge. In other words, he wanted you to let him know how L33T he is.

      Normally, I wouldn't be so condescending about a newbie, but the fact that he asked you about it, specifically telling you the price, indicates that he was just showing off. It would be kind of like him showing you his brand new Porsche, as he rubs his chin thoughtfully saying, "hmm, do you think I paid too much??"

      Meanwhile, I don't think you need to worry too much about the cost of low-end systems being affected, since we l33t coders "know" that building it yourself will always be cheaper, especially since you don't have to pay the Microsoft Tax... ;#)
      • It's like saying "My joystick is bigger than yours :P"

        Most non-computer literate folks rate PC's on PRICE or SIZE of the monitor) not the capabilities.
      • Meanwhile, I don't think you need to worry too much about the cost of low-end systems being affected, since we l33t coders "know" that building it yourself will always be cheaper, especially since you don't have to pay the Microsoft Tax...

        Would that that were true. :-(

        I'm looking at buying a new PC in the UK just now, not quite state-of-the-art, just behind the huge price jump to the absolute top of the line kit. I've looked at several well-reputed suppliers of individual parts, and several manufacturers' made-to-order systems as reviewed in recent PC magazines. There's no question that buying a made-for-you system is around 30% cheaper. For the best prices I found for a basic setup (mobo, proc, RAM, HDD, gfx card), I could get a whole, award-winning system, with almost identical spec + monitor + CD-RW + DVD-ROM + lots more + legal WinXP (even if I'd immediately replace it). Building your own system is definitely not a financially sound move in these parts. :-(

        • I don't try to compete with low end systems. Without a tax number (or tax-free number... this in the US where buisnesses can avoid taxes) I can't compete. However when I build my own systems I get UW-SCSI, and other such things not found in your low end systems. I can beat the price of a similear high end system.

          I prefer Matrox cards (I don't care about 3-d, and for 2-d they are the best). I get several hard drives so I can keep swap and /usr on differnt drives. (This isn't an issue now that memory was cheap, but on my first system 16 meg was all the ram than I could afford) I can choose my motherboard, getting something that works, whatever is cheap

      • Meanwhile, I don't think you need to worry too much about the cost of low-end systems being affected, since we l33t coders "know" that building it yourself will always be cheaper, especially since you don't have to pay the Microsoft Tax... ;#)
        I disagree. I am plenty capable of building my own system, but I haven't done so in years. Put simply, the level of competition amongst PC OEMs is so high that it is extremely unlikely that you, as an individual, can even hope to purchase the parts (or software, depending your your needs), assemble, service (e.g., replacing defective parts), and purchase the software as cost effectively as the OEM can. Yes, they enjoy some profits, but their margins are almost certainly less than your increased costs due to your relative inefficiencies. This is especially true if you take into account that your time is, hopefully, worth more than the people that normally handle the grunt work. Anyways, I think the mistake that many people make, ignoring the ego factor, is they compare apples and oranges. They'll assemble an overclocked system from a variety of less reputable vendors and compare it a similar performing Dell system, but they ignore the poorer reliability, trouble in replacing/returning parts, the cost of their time (less an issue when you're young I guess), etc. It may be true that you don't need or want things like technical support or the bundled software, but it's not as if you can't purchase a PC without these options at the appropriate price. Sigh
    • My news system is about $5300, not counting the compilers . . . and, YES, I *do* need that much, thank you . . .


      And for those who have asked in the past, yes, it's still the same system, and it actually, finallly, and supposedly arrives tomorrorow--so it will sit for a week while I'm off at a conference.


      hawk, who *Really* wishes his number-smasher had been here to use for the last week while getting ready for the conference.

  • Economy coming back? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by th3walrus ( 191223 ) on Sunday April 07, 2002 @01:06PM (#3299388)
    So because one or two companies show slight gains from last quarter, the entire tech economy is rebounding? Bah... I wonder when media sources would like to give some proof as to recovery, rather than jumping on the optimistic bandwagon in their articles.

    Even so, raising prices at the beginning of a rebound might serve to shove us back in the gutter again. People are tighter with money now, especially tech workers, who are the #1 customers for these technologies. I don't think they're willing to give up the money so easily now.

  • Most? (Score:1)

    by sg3000 ( 87992 )
    > Granted, most of the /. crowd build their own
    > boxes

    Probably a significant number build their own boxes, but I doubt one could say, "most"

    • Re:Most? (Score:1, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward
      I used to build my own machines, but over time I discovered the advantage of having a manufacturer thorougly test all of the components together to make sure they worked well together.
      I always wanted to believe that every component worked just as well with every motherboard, etc., etc., but they just don't. When the company who's selecting the components is also designing the motherboard they have a distinct advantage. Sure, this means that when I start upgrading individual components I don't have the same guarantee - but at least I did for my original system, and honestly once I start upgrading my video card or this or that, I'm really about ready for a whole new system anyways.

      • You're so right. I've built a few machines of my own over time. The last was about three years ago (and is still going, though about due for replacement now). It took four major part swaps before I got it all working. Fortunately, I'd bought everything from the same place, and I used them because they had good customer service, so that caused no problems beyond a little frustration. We agreed that next time, I'd let them put it all together for me... :-)

        And you're right about the myth of upgrading bit-by-bit as well, IMHO. You can add new hard drive space, but mobo, processor, RAM and gfx card often go together. If you're replacing that lot, you're really down to "I can reuse the monitor, printer, KB and mouse" rather than "I could just upgrade the mobo, processor, RAM and gfx card" anyway.

      • yeah, after the first two systems i built, i was gung ho, and advised all my friends to do the same.

        then the one i built last summer...
        bad motherboard, returned for (payed shipping twice more)
        bad processor, no response from vendor, had to buy a new one
        bad harddrive, returned (paid shipping twice more
        bizarre conflict with soundcard + motherboard

        all in all it took nearly an extra month of troubleshooting and dealing with online vendors, and an extra $150, killing any price advantage i had.

        in the future, i'm going to a local shop, one that's been around for a while, and getting a custom built box. i may pay an extra $100 or so for it, but i'll know what goes in, and if i need tech support, i'll have a warranty, and only need to drive it over to the shop.

        building your own system is fun. i suggest everyone try it once. but there are risks, especially when dealing with the kind of companies that give you the best prices. (www.pricewatch.com)

        the tech support you get from the OEMs is aweful, and they use second rate components.

        local shops are the way to go. i like a place where 3 years warranty actually means "if at any time in the next 3 years, something breaks, drive it in, and we'll fix it as fast as possible."

  • nooooooo (Score:5, Funny)

    by the_2nd_coming ( 444906 ) on Sunday April 07, 2002 @01:10PM (#3299396) Homepage
    doo you know what this will do to the "over priced Mac" argument!!!!

  • Building your own (Score:4, Informative)

    by BrookHarty ( 9119 ) on Sunday April 07, 2002 @01:11PM (#3299397) Journal
    I always build my own, stopping by Pricewatch [pricewatch.com] to find the best prices.

    But everywhere I look, places are building custom PCs now. BestBuy was even building pcs to order. They had many vendors, Alienware [alienware.com], hp, compaq, etc.... You could order a custom PC, or build your own with off the shelf items. CompUSA started to carry OEM products awhile back, funny to see those white boxed oem products on sale at a retail store.

    • CompUSA started to carry OEM products awhile back, funny to see those white boxed oem products on sale at a retail store.

      So you mean they're returning to what they used to do. I doubt many other people do, but I remember the day when CompUSA was actually "Soft Warehouse," and was on Belt Line and Josey in Carrollton, Texas. There was also the original store in Addison down near the Tollway, but anyway .. (You do know that CompUSA, before being bought out by Groupo Sancho (I believe) is/was based in Dallas, right? Corporate HQ is at Beltline and Dallas Pkwy)

      Soft Warehouse, and later CompUSA, used to be great for buying all kinds of OEM/whitebox parts, kind of like what Fry's is these days (but with generally better quality). Between CompUSA and MSC Computers (a local shop), I could find everything I needed for a custom-built machine.

  • Usual rumour tactics (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Baki ( 72515 ) on Sunday April 07, 2002 @01:12PM (#3299403)
    These are just usual rumours to get the people buy now, and not postpone. We've seen such manipulation over and over again (e.g. with memory prices, causing huge price fluctuations; there is always a group earning lots of money on price fluctuations).

    Over time PC prices shall come down inevitably, there is no fundamental reason why progress of technology (enabling more power for same price or equal power for lower price) should stop any time soon.

    Example: LCD prices are bound to fall sharply in the second half of the year. New production capacity comes available in big quantities in july/august (new generation plants, higher efficiency, less shortages etc). I guess some stakeholders want to push people into buying now (out of fear for price increases) to get rid of their old inventories.

    • Re:Usual rumour tactics (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Indeed. Cashing in on propaganda. Short term profits perhaps but at the cost of credibility. I still vividly remember all the hew and cry in the press about the shortage of tech workers. Will be a long time before I regain much faith in the press. No longer an information source but a crowbar made of lies.
      • all the hew and cry in the press about the shortage of tech workers

        Some of that (esp. regarding not-so-highly-educated "high tech" workers) was certainly just lemming-see-lemming-write hype mongering... but it's different in that there wasn't really anyone selling their product (except perhaps some of techies wanting even more inflated salaries... but they have less influence on press than companies)

        And shortage for actually qualified and competent tech people is still true, and will be true in near future. Big headlines for tech slump hide the fact that even now it is often difficult to find good enough people, esp. programmers (and related, system architects etc). There are lots of people who claim they have the skills, but who shouldn't have been hired in the first place... and their crying is now obfuscating the scenery.

        I'm not saying it's easy to find a job, even if you are qualified right now, but it's often more of a problem of supply and demand meeting, not least because of floood of "fake" candidates, 20 year old dotcom CEOs, "programmers" who self-taught javascript in 2 days etc. etc..

    • Apple is also playing this game.

      I have opted to upgrade my old system, rather than to buy a new one. I wanted to add the capabilities of putting my home movies on DVDs. I figured that all I had to do was get a DVD burner, bigger faster hard drive, CPU upgrade, some more memory, etc. I spent a fair chunk of change on the hardware, but less than if I had bought a new iMac, and MUCH less than if I had bought a G4 desktop.

      Turns out I was wrong - one crucial step in the DVD process is authoring. And on the Mac there are really two choices. DVD Studio Pro, which is $1k, or iDVD, which is free*. *Disclaimer: if you buy a new Mac with the built in DVD burner. In other words, if you want to burn DVD's you either have to take it up the ass for a new machine, or REALLY take it up the ass for the Pro software package. Granted, DVD Studio Pro is awesome, but after spending $1k on hardware, I'm not sure if I want to spend that much again on software to do something that another program will do for free (if you buy a new Mac).

      And before you call me a whiner, I'm not in the market for an iMac. I want a machine that's upgradable - and I want to preserve my investment in my legacy hardware (SCSI scanner, ext. HD array, ext. CD-R burner, ADB graphics tablet, etc. etc. etc.) - and I don't believe that the current Pro machines are worth what Apple is charging, especially at the high end with the DVD burner and iDVD software.

      The computer industry thrives on sales of new machines. And as sales decline, we'll see pressure like this increase to get people to upgrade. And we'll continue to see stubborn hold-outs like myself. I think it's worse in the Apple market, because Macs in general (not iMacs) are VERY upgradable. Nobody wants to just toss their legacy hardware. OS X, USB, all these new technologies are really putting the pressure on. I'm just glad I'm not one of those poor schmucks stuck with a 9600. It was an awesome platform in it's day, and can still be upgraded - I think you can put dual 500MHz G4's on it, but it's not supported by OS X.

  • Prove it (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Lord Puppet ( 300347 ) on Sunday April 07, 2002 @01:12PM (#3299405)

    "Granted, most of the /. crowd build their own boxes..."



    I highly doubt the accuracy of this statement.



    • "Granted, most of the /. crowd build their own boxes..."
      I highly doubt the accuracy of this statement.
      A) Maybe you should explain why.
      B) I smell a poll!

    • Re:Prove it (Score:5, Insightful)

      by RatOmeter ( 468015 ) on Sunday April 07, 2002 @01:40PM (#3299492)
      Since about 1987, I have always built my own boxes, but recently I've wavered... and it's purely on account of the cost issue. Now my time is becoming more and more valuable (higher pay, family) and PC prices [have been] getting lower and lower. It's getting harder for me to justify (especially to my wife) the time it takes to roll my own when the difference between parts and off-the-shelf is only a 100 to 200 bucks (or perhaps even less).

      Used to be, I'd do it just for the love of it (and to save some dough). Now, it's usually just a pain in the ass. And I don't believe hardware prices are going to increase to point where I'll change my mind.

      • t's only a personal thing, but as far as my own personal machines go, hand built is the only option. The advantages from having carefully chosen each and every component, exactly as required to do the job in hand are worth the few hours (good components/knowledge/luck permitting) it takes to build the thing. Even if I buy a system, the first thing I do is wipe the disks and start from scratch.

        Also, I'm probably not alone in being a serial upgrader, I replace something in one of my machines about once a month, funds permitting. So, I haven't actually built a whole new machine for myself in 4 years, though the only original parts left from that machine are the keyboard and case (currently home to my Linux dev box).

        However, I'd always go the way of prebuilt machines, preferably from one of a few big firms (I'm not going to plug ANYBODY) if I were putting a network together for people (something I do regularly), it's more for tech support and a good warranty than anything else.
        • This is me currently. I have some parts form my original, but have added a CD-RW, swapped MB's (cuz the original died), changed out a power supply, upgraded soundcards (to get rid of the revolting Aureal card I had and replace it with a Live), upgraded graphics cards (not to a GeForce 3 or a Geforce 4, but to a 2 MX400.....replacing a Permedia 2....it's all I need..I don't play twitch games), upgraded hard drives (40 GB replacing a 12 GB....12 GB was full...one day I wil add it back), changed cases and that's about it. Eventually, I will upgrade CD-RW and the DVD drives (maybe with a combo drive), upgrade the MB to a DDR board (not very likely yet), upgrade memory to 256 or 512 mb ram (very likely), upgrade monitors when my current one dies (to a 15 inch or larger LCD depending on funds). Replacing or upgrading parts is almost always the way to go, unless you need to add a PC. Then, if I were to choose, I would choose a place that built their own machines (Micro Center Power spec machines). When you choose a place that does BTO, not only do you get the parts you want (or at least the specs you want), you get a case that's upgradeable, and not proprietary. A case that can take new upgrades as the come.

          The only time I would buy a whole new machine is if I was adding a machine or getting a laptop. If I am just wanting to upgrade one piece, I can do that myself, and save the bucks. The same way that if something goes out in our car or if you want a new upgraded set of tires it's much cheaper to replace the part then buy a whole new car to replace it. Of course that's until the cars "case" rots (rusts). After that, you buy a new car.

      • Compromise solution (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Doomdark ( 136619 )
        I am in a similar position, but for me there is a compromise that I like. Buy PC from a small independent vendor that can customize the system, ie use exactly the components you want. There are some limitations on components, but you can pretty much always choose from at least a couple of decent alternatives.

        What this means is that first of all I save time on not having to assemble the thing and test individual components, plus if something breaks, I can get it replaced more easily. But I still get to choose the exact configuration, and don't have to pay the Microsoft tax if I choose not to (if I choose to, however, I can still get OEM pricing for Windows).

        I may end up paying that 100 - 200 bucks for their work; but usually it's not even that much, since they still get volume discount for components. That is, if I bought components from them, the price would be about equal to what they charge for the whole system.

      • Agreed; only my first PC (a lugable) and a laptop weren't home built. The reason used to be price and control, but now it's only control.

        IDE chipsets, video cards, and built-in sound support problems in systems I maintain are enough for me to continue to insist on paying for good parts that aren't bleeding edge when I suggest a computer to anyone else. A friend who, dispite my advice, chose a packaged computer only because of it's price ended up throwing the same computer away reciently...after over a year of odd problems with it. Yet, he's still looking for 'a deal' or a name brand and can't be bothered to investigate what he's actually buying.

        In recient years, though, I've been bitten a few times on parts that should have worked without much fuss but instead required firmware upgrades and special handling such as putting cards in specific slots and BIOS tweaking. With a pre-packaged PC, much of that should not be an issue. In the future, I don't know if I'll start recommending brand-name packaged systems. It is entirely likely, though.

      • Since about 1987, I have always built my own boxes, but recently I've wavered...

        Me too, in fact I bought my first pre-built Intel box (er, unless you count i860 boxes) recently. It was cheaper then I would built it myself. For the most part even decent componants.

        They skimped on the case, it is kind of cheasy. They skimped big time on the power supply, it is monster loud. My machines all have PC Power and Cooling supplies, and are all quiet. This new machine has a normal supply, and it reminded me why I buy my own quiet ones. Plus the keyboard and mouse really suck.

        I think next time I'll build my own since I can get all the parts I really want, not an ethernet that is decent, but one I like, not drives that are decent, but ones I like, not power supplies that suck, but ones that rule.

        For now I just bought a new power supply, keyboard, and mouse to replace the ones it came with.

      • I've always been a big fan of "build your own clone!" too - but it almost doesn't make sense anymore. Oh sure, from a "coolness" standpoint - there's really no substitute. That's only because LAN gamers and the computer "3lit3" turn up their noses at anything that isn't overclocked, hacked up with extra cooling fans, and has neon lighting inside of it.

        If you're a regular or "power user", however, and want value for your dollar, the home-built clone is looking less and less viable.

        In recent years, I've built several home-built clones for use at home, as well as used a couple of Dell systems. Neither Dell has given me *any* reliability problems, but all of the home-built PCs have. Conventional "wisdom" of the self-proclaimed PC gurus says "Oh, you need to use better quality parts!" Well, Adaptec SCSI controllers, Muskin memory and Asus motherboards haven't been the magic answer for me - so I'm not sure what they expect I should be buying instead?

        Fact is, most clone cases use crappy quality power supplies. I had one literally go up in smoke while the machine was plugged in but powered off! (Before that, it worked fine for about a year - but 1 year before burning up isn't what I call quality.) Cases with *good* power supplies in them cost big $'s, making the system cost uncompetitive with companies like Dell or HP.

        Then, you struggle with warranty issues. If I buy a name brand PC, at least I can buy an extended warranty that pretty much guarantees me free replacement of any parts that die for 3 years. Try that with a generic clone! You might get a manufacturer 3 year warranty on the hard drives, but that's probably about it.

        One of my Asus motherboards constantly freezes up running Win '9x. With Linux, 2000, or XP however, it's fine. (I wanted Win '98 on it because I used it for MIDI and hard disk audio recording, and had some older software.) No amount of driver updating ever got it stable, even with the latest BIOS updates.

        Of course, now, if you ask the same people that praised that board when I bought it, most will simply tell you "Oh, yeah - that chipset is screwed up. You need the new Asus model XXXX!" Whatever.... This kind of thing only happens to people building clone PCs. The name brand systems get returned as defective when they can't run a popular OS properly, so that's usually weeded out before they go on sale.
        • Conventional "wisdom" of the self-proclaimed PC gurus says "Oh, you need to use better quality parts!" Well, Adaptec SCSI controllers, Muskin memory and Asus motherboards haven't been the magic answer for me - so I'm not sure what they expect I should be buying instead?

          Hey, I'm in the same boat. I built a completely new machine a few months ago, spared no cost and used the best components I could find. I wound up with a machine that was about as stable as something I could pick up at Best Buy and had only marginal performance gains. My theory is that QA in the component market no longer exists while the big name companies spend quite a few dollars making sure their machines can do 95% of what they expect the customers to want. If this trend continues, building your own computer will be a fool's endevour in just a few years.

          • In many cases, it's not brand names of the components that give you quality (anymore). All mainboard manufacturers fluke every once in a while, all drive manufacturers do, a bunch of cdrw manufacturers did, etc. But also, many lower-budget manufacturers make excellent high quality and long-term stable products every once in a while.

            In any case, motherboard manufacturers such as Abit are fair in their warranty service, if you don't mind waiting two months for your repaired item. Drive manufacturers also are good at sending replacement items for broken drives.

            But you don't want to be without PC for weeks waiting for warranty repair, so lesson number one: When you build PCs yourself, build multiple PCs so you can keep spare components laying around.

            A problem here is also that it's getting harder to identify which components are of good quality. Review websites will give you some information, but of course nobody has long-term stability tests for those brand-new chipset mainboards.

            BUT, neither does HP, or Compaq, or Dell. The last Athlon-carrying HP I've examined contained a mainboard based on the lobu KL133 SDRAM(!) chipset (further rant deleted). Bringing your broken PC back to the retailer 9 months after you bought it also doesn't give to an instant fix or replacement, they might send it to the manufacturer for you though, saving you some shipping cost.

            What I'm trying to say is that 'whiteboxing' your own PC is not as simple as going onto pricewatch and finding the cheapes supplier for the latest and hottest hardware reviewed by tom on the web.

            Succesfull whiteboxing requires keeping good track of all review websites (and top magazines such as the german "CT magazine"), and paying special attention to stability issues. Even then, don't go whiteboxing just for one PC, because you'll have much more trouble diagnosing which part is broken or unstable in case you have problems. When you have multiple PCs that you are 'whiteboxing', you can often quickly identify problem components by swapping them around.

            For succesfull whiteboxing, you will want to run your own stability tests (memtest86, cpu+disk loads, benchmarks, etc), and you will want to have alternate (varying brand or model) components to swap in and out to find the optimal combination.

            You will want to do all testing while you don't have to wait for it, so it will have to be at least your second PC, so you can keep surfing the web for example while a 48hour test runs.

            Then, you want to deal with suppliers that you can simply send low quality components back to with not much more than a quoted reason like 'unstable', 'unreliable', or 'incompatible'. If you can't find such a supplier, you want one that is 20+% cheaper than the rest so you can simply stoss one in every 5 components you buy in the bin if they are pieces of junk.

            For most people, that means that they can only be succesfull whiteboxers if they build computers for themselves, and their family, and maybe the aunts friends, the neighbours daughter, their pets outdour house and that cute girl in the bar.

            But that's the way it has always been, and nothing is changing there at all. Whiteboxing is not for the amateur, if you want the perfect system and you're not ready to go all the way, then buy your stuff at the dealer and buy the expensive extended warranty, and forget about whiteboxing. If you don't mind messing with the stuff, reading and learing about the stuff, and doing it for others too (including fixing it when they bring it back broken (which they will!)), then go ahead you've found yourself a more interesting alternative to fishing or stamp collecting.

            That's what whiteboxing is all about, it's not about spending a couple of evenings at pricewatch and toms web site after watching a technet show and then flushing the cash for the 'perfect' system that you will love for years to come.

      • Used to be, I'd do it just for the love of it (and to save some dough). Now, it's usually just a pain in the ass.

        Congratulations. You're no longer a hacker. You're a consumer. Enjoy your appliances. ;-)
        • "You're no longer a hacker."

          Ouch, that hurt. Actually, my daily job involves system integration, software and (sometimes) hardware development, so I kinda get my fill of it at work. Getting married... well that changed things a lot. Way back when (while single), I spent a week of evenings hacking an 8 channel [radio] scanner from Radio Trash. Interfaced the PLL tuner IC to the parallel port on my PC and wrote a C [DOS] program to control the tuning. Wound up with a 400 channel scanner when under PC control. Me very busy now; all I can do is look back on that stuff as "the Good ol' Days"

    • Re:Prove it (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      You would admit that you don't build all your own systems?

      Hey everyone! Look at the luser! Haha!

      At one time I suspect that most slashdot viewers were the type that built their own systems. Perhaps that is no longer the case. But the reason one builds their own computer system is primarily because no one else can be expected to build it to your spec, if you know anything about computers at all. There's so much crappy PC hardware out there I'm amazed more people aren't building their own. Then again I'm amazed more people aren't running Linux. I guess this would explain the decline of intelligent commentary in the last few years.
    • Absolutely. It's easier to go to Home Depot, Lowes, etc and buy a box. That way, you don't have to mess with cutting the cardboard prescisely, folding cleanly or getting the glue spread evenly without making your $HOUSE/$TABLE/$SELF a sticky mess. Plus, you are more likely to find reliable, heavy-duty boxes made by a box company that knows what it is doing.

  • ram prices (Score:5, Informative)

    by kidlinux ( 2550 ) <<ten.xobecaps> <ta> <ekud>> on Sunday April 07, 2002 @01:29PM (#3299453) Homepage
    "and a possible end to the decline we've seen in the price of memory."

    A possible end?
    The ram I'm using in my system, which I bought late August/early Septemer, has nearly tripled in price since then! At the time I bought it, I thought it was a reasonable price, but now it's just way too expensive.
    Keep in mind that memory prices have a great deal to do with supply and demand (or so they say.) Here's a price FAQ [crucial.com] I found at crucial.com when wondering why my ram had become so expensvie.
    • ditto!!!
      I deal with a CEO of a mem distributor.. it has tripled in the last 2 months.. we were gettin about 30 for a stick of 256pc100, now its well over 88
  • The author owns stock in Memory and Processor companies? And probably at least one of the big brand name PC vendors...

  • they won't go up that much (Score:4, Interesting)

    by asv108 ( 141455 ) <asv@@@ivoss...com> on Sunday April 07, 2002 @01:31PM (#3299459) Homepage Journal
    I really don't think prices will go up too much and if they do go up it will probably be a temporary increase. Look how much competition there is amongst the PC makers. The reason why PC prices are so low is because of the ease of entry in to the marketplace coupled with rapidly changing technology and a reduced consumer demand for the latest and greatest PC. Ten years ago, you had to buy a new computer every two years in order to run the latest and greatest software. Not so anymore, a Pentium II will run just about everything the non-gamer needs to run, plus I've seen some thrifty gamers running P-II's with not too much of a problem, besides a little wait.
    • Prices will not go up. The main reason is Dell that is using this downturn to clobber their competitors. Notably Compaq.

      Dell as the lowcost producer only needs to keep the level and the rest will try and fail. Then go back the old pricing.

      This is being done in the Airline industry all the time. One of the major airlines sends a signal of higher prices waiting for reaction. If nobody follows they go down again, usually within days.

      Dell wil not follow as they have publicly stated they will use this trough to gain share.
      The PC price elasticity is such that pretty much price is the only thing that will spur market growth short-term. A hike will kill short term demand as no compelling reason for upgrading now rather than in 6 month time can be articulated.
      There is no new "must haves" in the newer boxes and it will be a while. Dell is the major culprit here as well since they have less than half of the R&D than other majors. Around 2.5% if I remember.
    • If you have a system that uses at least the Intel 440BX chipset, you can run most current software pretty easily, even Windows XP Professional.

      The big bottleneck nowadays is not the CPU, it's not enough memory and too-slow hard drives. Fortunately, memory prices for PC-100/133 DIMM's aren't really that bad, and most 440BX chipset motherboards with a BIOS upgrade will support modern 7200 RPM ATA-100 hard drive (they are backward-compatible with ATA-33).

      I'll almost bet that once you get 256 MB of RAM and a 7200 RPM ATA-100 hard drive, your computer's performance could increase as much as 60%.

      I'm running a Celeron A 466 MHz system using an Abit AB-BM6 motherboard, 256 MB of RAM, and a 10 GB ATA-66 hard drive; most everything I throw at it runs pretty reasonably quick. :-)
  • Now I can undersell my custom built superior systems even more. Name brand pcs are way overpriced as it is. Hopefully I'll move more computers now though.
  • I look more to the used market for bargins in HD's , Memory , Monitors etc when I build a PC.

    I have a greater chance to HAGGLE :D
    Some great bargins there when you haggle them down.

    Even if it isn't used products, you can still haggle. No harm in trying. I always do.
  • Typical...

    Yet again, where Apple lead, the others follow.

  • Jeeze... (Score:2, Funny)

    by OverDrive33 ( 468610 )
    I thought that time travel guy said he'd have his device ready by fall! Now he's already been here and back telling about the rise in computer prices!!
  • If PC prices do rise, the timing may be fortuitous for open source. Although Linux still does not seem to be gaining ground on the corporate desktop, it is at least gaining mindshare: it's no longer a wild idea to suggest that a business should entirely migrate to Linux. If businesses do perceive that new hardware is more expensive, they may realize that Linux is like a low-cost hardware upgrade.
  • Toxi waste [npr.org] - computers have a very short life and lots of toxic materials.
  • ... the economy is still not really growing - only able to level even.

    Rising is never as fast as falling. And the mergers are not going to reduce the over-capacities. OK the memory was really too cheap, I think. But the rest? Flatscreens are not _that_ cheap.

    So all comes down to wishfull thinking for my opinion. We have ample time to compare prices and bargain. I don't need a Dell or HP - on the inside they are pretty much the same anyway.
  • You know, I used to think building my own box was the way to go. I'd get on Pricewatch and find the best motherboards, CPUs, etc. and build the whole thing. It used to be cheaper.

    Then my parents needed three new computers at once, and I decided to check out Dell Refurbished. [dell.com]

    For $580 shipped (each), I got 2 computers with a 1.1GHz Celeron processor and one with a 1.6GHz Pentium IV. All had at least 128MB RAM and one had 256MB (I bought extra memory from Crucial.com to bring them all up to 256MB.) All had at least a 20GB hard drive, which was all my parents needed for the office. All came preinstalled with Windows XP Home (fine for office work.) And one came with a Firewire card; one came with a kick-ass video card. All had either Ethernet or a 56K modem (in card format, even, not built on to the motherboard.) All of this also came with free one-year ON-SITE hardware tech support from Dell.

    I was a bit worried about the quality, since I've seen how Dell shafts its low-end users with shoddy parts. But the computers performed flawlessly upon arrival and have since, with no system crashes. Then, when it came time to swap out a CD-ROM for a CD-RW, I was truly impressed. Swapping out of a drive consisted of the following:

    1. Unplugging the computer.
    2. Pulling a thumb-tab at the top of the computer.
    3. Pulling a latch that released the CD-ROM drive.
    4. Unplugging the CD-ROM drive's cables.
    5. Pulling out the CD-ROM drive and putting the drive brackets on the new drive (which just snapped on.)
    6. Sliding in the new drive, plugging in cables, snapping case back together.
    7. Plug in.

    Done! No screws, no screwdriver, no nasty cheap ATX case with a hood you have to struggle with getting in the right place. Check out this picture [dell.com] to see what I'm talking about.

    There was no way I could have built these computers, bought Windows XP, and had any money left over to profit at $580 a computer. Plus, I would have had to put them in an ugly case that would have caused hassle for me later.

    I don't think it's economical any more to build your own computer. This is a GOOD thing -- it shows that computers have become a commodity. Do you build your own TV? Probably not. Microwave? Heck no. The quality to price ratio of pre-built computers is now such that even geeks are starting to buy pre-built computers. I, for one, am glad. Let Dell take over the hassle of being called when the computer has a problem. I'll spend more time doing things that I'd rather be doing. :)
    • hmm I didn't realize till now that Dell was resorting to advertising in posts on /.

      And to think an AD got a +5
    • >> Granted, most of the /. crowd build their own boxes

      This should be the next /. poll. Perhaps something like:

      I often build supercomputers
      I've build my own home machine
      My friend helped me build a machine once
      I plugged in my machine and connected all the cables correctly
      I can put batteries in a flashlight correctly
      Generic CowboyNeal choice

    • I am a software guy. I spend my nerd thots on trying to figure out things like why some people like fricken OOP, and not on hardware.

      I never really had that much interest in the hardware beyond a basic understanding. My hands are too clumsy and large, and I cracked the &@#$ motherboard the last time I put in extra memory because the doggone things wouldn't lock into place. Fortunately, it still worked miraculously. If I paid somebody, then I could demand a replacement if it cracked on them.

      I might add a new drive and try to add memory, but I decided not to try to learn hardware by trial and error because I don't wanna deal with flakey hardware problems. It if does not work the first time and 40 minutes with the manual does not uncover it, to the shop i go.
    • I hardluy ever need a completely new computer. With prices dropping all the time (with some exceptions but mostly unpredictable ones), buying for the future is a joke. Every part of my machine has been replaced at some time or the other, most if not all multiple times, but it's never been completely replaced with something brand new. I'm on my 6th CPU, 5th(?) GFX card, 3rd case (small to large to ATX) and kazillionth HDD, and the idea is to upgrade when needed, and not before. Sending it in to some shop to do every little thing costs some in the long run, so I'd rather do that myself.

      For a complete PC I know a nice shop that'll put together whatever pieces I want for a brand new PC for 35$ if I want to. After all the trouble I had getting the @#%$@#% fan to snap on last time, it'll be worth it.

      Kjella
    • A microwave only has one purpose. A computer has several. In fact, if there were microwave parts out there that would let you cook different foods better (a 'cordon bleu' style microwave, or a 'fast food only' microwave) people would probably go for those.

      Most people don't build their own TV, but they do assemble their own entertainment systems (DVD, CD, speakers, etc).
  • See here [crucial.com]. 256meg PC2100 DIMMs back down to $70 apiece. Kudos to amdmb.com [amdmb.com] for the heads-up.
  • While it's all well and good to say that it's now cheaper to buy pre-built computers than to build, there are a couple of other reasons why you might still consider building.
    • Environmentalism. I always upgrade because I don't like the idea of an entire computer going into a landfill. I kept the full-size AT case I bought in 1990 for as long as possible -- the only reason I eventually ditched it was because of the switch to ATX form factor. I had the same case, the same power supply, etc. running nonstop for over a decade. I plan to keep my ATX case(s) for at least that long. Hey, it's the only planet we've got; we might as well take care of it!
    • Microsoft boycott. I'm willing to pay more for a PC that doesn't have Windows pre-installed, just on principle. I promise to go to the grave having shelled out exactly $0.00 to Mr. Gates in my lifetime.

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