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Handhelds Hardware

Garmin Rino-GPS Show and Tell 137

Posted by timothy from the bribing-santa dept.
jspectre writes: "Garmin, makers of fine GPS products, has a sneak peek of their upcoming Rino (Radios Integrated with Navigation for the Outdoors). A new handheld combination of GPS and 2-way Radio using the common FRS spectrum. In addition to downloadable maps, trip planning, weighing 8.5oz and being waterproof you can "beam" your location to other Rino users while you talk to them. Your location will show up on their GPS display allowing you to navigate to each other. Expected availability, June 2002. Great fun for geocaching parties I'd think."
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Garmin Rino-GPS Show and Tell More

Garmin Rino-GPS Show and Tell

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  • good survival tool in the savannah... (Score:3, Funny)

    by Transient0 ( 175617 ) on Tuesday March 26, 2002 @01:57PM (#3229849) Homepage
    ... or does it only tell you the location of other Rinos, not rhinos?

  • One step closer (Score:4, Funny)

    by Kizzle ( 555439 ) on Tuesday March 26, 2002 @02:02PM (#3229888)
    One step closer to making a tricorder.

  • eParka and GPS Maps (Score:5, Interesting)

    by smoondog ( 85133 ) on Tuesday March 26, 2002 @02:02PM (#3229894)
    eParka.com's digital maps [eparka.com] are a cool way to visualize GPS mapping technology for free. Supports the entire country (sans alaska) and will support the Garmin GPS...

    -Sean
  • If it doesn't work with Galilleo [wired.com], then I'm not interested!

    • I don't want to be Tony Blair when hell have to report to Dubya that he failed to kill this project. In the best case he loses his job as governor of te UK

  • My Etrex!! (Score:4, Funny)

    by ackthpt ( 218170 ) on Tuesday March 26, 2002 @02:06PM (#3229921) Homepage Journal
    It's.. it's.. Aging right before my eyes!

    It's.. it's.. Becoming obsolete!

    It's.. it's.. Losing that gleam of desirablilty!

    It's.. it's.. Acquired a bit of dust and a scratch i never noticed before!

    It's.. it's... Hey, is that a vacuum tube sticking out the back?

  • Where are the sonars? (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I have long longed for a combined GPS/echo sonar. That way I can map my fishing lake in high precision. And, eventually produce ray-traced maps of the lake.

    However I have not been able to find any GPS/Sonar combos capable of output to a harddisk.

    Any suggestions?
    • Garmin used to (make still) make a GPS with a fishfinder on it, with the various data integrated into one display, and exportable to computer. A few years ago, a student at the lab where I work [utexas.edu] mapped a portion of Lake Travis [utexas.edu] here in Austin, TX, for use by the projects doing sonar research out there. I'd tell you what model it was, but the lake is a 45 minute drive away. It's still on the boat in question, and still works, though.
  • ...if it's sending GPS location data over common FRS frequencies the non-Rino FRS users will be treated to wonderful bursts of data-farts over their analog freqs.

    • Yes, but FRS has 14 channels and 38 quiet codes(*), which means you can pick a configuration where you don't hear them. It shouldn't be a problem.

      (*) Quiet codes are little bursts that are sent prior to transmitting, so that multiple people can share the same channel. It's not perfect, but it works pretty well.
      • Um no the quiet codes are tones that are transmitted along with the radio signal that cannot be heard by humans.
      • "(*) Quiet codes are little bursts that are sent prior to transmitting, so that multiple people can share the same channel. It's not perfect, but it works pretty well."

        Actually the "quiet codes" are subaudible tones that open the squelch of the radio when received. Also called CTCSS (Continuous Tone Controlled Squelch System), they've been in use for years. They are not "little bursts".

      • Motorola has these as well and on the FRS radio web page (look at a manual such as the one for the 6320 on page 36,) they tell you both the RF frequency (page 35) and the code frequency, which is actualy a short audio tone. If your radio is set to "code 17" and some one else transmits, and they are also on "code 17" then your radio will filter out the tone that goes for a fraction of a second and then start listening. Take a scanner, scan the range of your FRS radio (462.5625 to 467.7125 Mhz if I remember) and set a code on your radio... you will hear a tone before your talking.

        • Well that sounds more like how I thought it worked, which is that the quiet codes were only sent at the start of a message. That doesn't match the description of the continuous subcarrier that other people mentioned.

          Which is it? I admit I've never looked into the details, I just read the instructions that came with my FRS, so my technical expertise in this area is severely lacking. :)

          • The truth: The sub-audible tone is continuous during your transmission. It is not a short burst.

            There exists some other methods that use digital codes to do the same thing, but FRS uses plain-old analog sub-audible tones superimposed on your other audio.

            -Joe

    • Re:Could be annoying... (Score:3, Informative)

      by GoRK ( 10018 )
      This is no different than what happens on VHF Ham's that use a Mic-E encoder for APRS position reporting. There is a 1/4-1/2 second 1200 baud data burst at the end of the transmission. It's really not annoying, and when you consider that either 1) the communication is important enough that you really shouldn't care about being interrupted for 1/4 second when someone else talking on a channel you are using is interrupting you for far longer, or 2) you wouln't even hear it anyway if you are using a coded squelch.

      This whole product undoubtadely evolved from APRS. Anyone really interested in this unit would be blown away by APRS - It's the same idea but wider-range, internet-repeated, and has digital messaging capabilities. :)

      ~GoRK

  • The RINOs have quads! (Score:3, Informative)

    by ClayJar ( 126217 ) on Tuesday March 26, 2002 @02:08PM (#3229945) Homepage
    We've been discussing the RINOs (and all sorts of other GPS and GPS-related devices) for some time over on the geocaching neck of the woods. (At times, the Magellan/Garmin/Lowrance/etc. debate looks like a distro-fest.)

    The RINOs have a quadrifilar (quad-helix) antenna, which means they should have reception up there with the Magellan 300-series and Meridian receivers (and the Garmin GPS V). The poor reception of the Garmin eTrex line will not affect them. (And the Garminites all cry "Yipee!" and no longer have to cower before those of us who have been using Magellans the whole time.)

    Anyway, for group caching, the RINOs look really fun. I do most of my geocaching alone, so I'd probably pass on them, though. ;)

    RINO usefulness for the existing GPS sports:
    - Geocaching: Excellent if in groups.
    - Geodashing: Maybe, but not likely.
    - Degree Confluences: Same as geodashing.
    - Geodrawing: Multi-pen art? Cool.
    - MinuteWar: Possibly... occasionally.

  • Security Risk (Score:3, Funny)

    by geogeek6_7 ( 566395 ) on Tuesday March 26, 2002 @02:08PM (#3229947) Homepage
    So now those AOL IM stalkers we all know about will be able to get at our children that much faster!

  • OpenSource GPS Mapping (Topographical)? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    So are there any open source G.P.S. mapping software packages (topographical mapping)?
  • Finally! Cybiko [cybiko.com] for adults! Now I don't have to be the creepy old guy talking to pre-teenagers!

  • Can you turn off the FRS feture? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by zulux ( 112259 ) on Tuesday March 26, 2002 @02:18PM (#3230037) Homepage Journal
    For week long hiking trips - it would be nesessary to turn off the FRS feture in order to save battery life. Anybody know if you can?

    Kudo's for Garmin for using AA batteries - there are readbly available back country solar chargers out there, and it would be useless if they used YAPBP (Yet Another Propriatary Battery Pack)

  • We did this one already... (Score:4, Informative)

    by aallan ( 68633 ) <alasdair@ba[ ]im.co.uk ['bil' in gap]> on Tuesday March 26, 2002 @02:20PM (#3230049) Homepage

    The same story was posted on the 4th of March by Hemos, see 'Garmin To Marry GPS with FRS/GMRS [slashdot.org]'.

    Al.
  • Hardly a sneak peak - Garmin has had that product info page online for weeks (months?).
    • Exactly and it was shown live at the Consumer and Electronics Show in Vegas in Jan 02..geez /. get your act together and get some decent stories
  • in short, a duplicate story, patented, and an old hat in the amateur radio community.

  • What about this? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by jhines0042 ( 184217 ) on Tuesday March 26, 2002 @02:35PM (#3230147) Journal
    What I want to know is when is a GPS company going to release a GPS for the car that does traffic analysis and automatically can route you around bad traffic spots?

    Lets say that (eventually) there is a significant installed base of GPS enabled cars. They each register their location anonymously with a central DB (anonymity could be turned off by the owner remotely for the low-jack, car recovery, option perhaps) and since the central DB would know what the speed limit on your road is (and the presence of stop lights etc...) if could monitor how traffic is flowing all across a local region.

    It could then do load balancing of traffic by telling others with the same network where to go and where to not go. If you have a specific destination programmed in it could tell you the quickest way to get there and actually be right because it would tell everyone a different way to get there to avoid congestion.

    • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

      by account_deleted ( 4530225 )
      Comment removed based on user account deletion
      • What I want to know is when is a GPS company going to release a GPS for other people's cars that automatically routes them out of my way!
        A good joke, and an interesting concept. Let's see how this would progress in the real world:

        1. Automatic rerouting of cars is sold to the public for safety purposes (disable/pull over cars for criminal stops, automatic yielding to emergency vehicles, reroute traffic around construction, accidents, etc.) Added is automatic reporting of position, via wireless signals sent from cars, for accident notification/911 purposes.
        2. Guv'ment mandates installation on all new cars. Also added is severe felony punishment for disabling or modifying such a system (modifications reported via wireless "snitch" feature)
        3. Local, state and federal autorities now use the on-board capabilities of the GPS unit combined with complex mapping software to monitor driver's activities. Erratic driving? Summon police for DUI investigation. Speeding? Send tickets via mail. To many parking tickets? Disable vehicle.
        4. Various federal agencies/politicians/celebrities/CEO's now get "preferential access" to the country's roads and highways. Traffic snarls in Los Angeles even more often than normal, but Britney Spears is never late for a concert appearance when she is driven from Bel Air/Beverly Hills cross town to an engagement during rush hour as traffic parts to automatically let her and her entourage pass.
    • What I want to know is when is a GPS company going to release a GPS for the car that does traffic analysis and automatically can route you around bad traffic spots?

      Hopefully soon.

      In fact, I imagine it won't be too many years before this sort of technology is built into state license-plates. There are a lot of potential benefits-- traffic balancing, intelligent traffic lights, instant accident-detection. And, of course, law enforcement. There'll be enormous privacy issues, but this sort of technology is far too useful for governments to pass up.

      First, you'd need good, cheap packet radio networks that won't mind lots and lots of transmitters occasionally chipping in a tiny packet here and there. If I'm not mistaken, most existing networks (things like CDPD) have a reasonable amount of connection overhead that makes this difficult.

      Second, you'd have an early-adopter problem where no GPS-enabled cars would be driving along a given route, and you would therefore be routed into a 2-hour traffic jam.

      I imagine trusting a computer to route you through the side-streets will also lead to a whole new series of "Bonfire of the Vanities"-type disasters.

    • Already available. (Score:2, Informative)

      by threaded ( 89367 )
      I have it in my car.

      The display gets these little pictures like the road signs for road works, and others for traffic speed etc.

      It just routes around them, only seems to bother if the traffic is very slow for a long distance though.

      I guess it takes the data from the Traffic Master which gets info from the road side traffic sensors and gantrys etc. and pumps it into the (Siemens?) navigation system.

      Sorry, don't have many more details, it's like all built in, car's still on warranty, so have not got round to hacking around in it yet.
  • Ok, seems like a cool little gadget, but what is the price mate?

    There is a lot of kool stuff out there but without a price we cannot start thinking on whether this is something we might start begging the wifey for or not!
  • I think the ability to transmit your location to another radio is neat. But I'd be interested to see the patent claims on this technology. I can only hope that they're very specific, and refer only to this particular implementation. I can't believe they've patented the idea of transmitting a GPS position to another receiver.
    • They probably haven't got a blanket patent- there's a VHF spec out there for transmitting GPS coordinates along with the VHF signal- it's intended for marine use, when calling friends or the coast guard for help. Models are already out on the market now, with support incrementally being phased in at all the coast guard monitoring stations- IIRC, they should be available across the US coastal waters by 2004.
    • The patent is definately narrow.

      If it's broad, Garmin will get toasted for prior art. See http://www.tapr.org/ - APRS and MIC-E have existed for a LONG time.
  • It might be prudent to wait for the europeans to get their version of GPS up (don't know how long this will take). This way you can buy something that can use either or both!

    • Re:Euro GPS (Score:3, Interesting)

      by bleuchat ( 566523 )
      AFAIK, Galileo (the EU version of GPS) will be compatable with the existing GPS system.

      There are a few articles on the BBC about it.
      "It will be a rival to the existing Global Positioning System (GPS) run by the United States, although the EU says the two networks will be compatible." -BBC "Green Light for Galileo project" [bbc.co.uk]
    • The more satellites your receiver can see, the more accurate your position is. Some receivers available now make use of the Russian Glonass system AND the GPS system at the same time. So you get better accuracy than GPS.

      I don't know if anybody makes an affordable consumer one though-- I have only heard about them through an engineer friend who sometimes does survey work for the state.

      Imagine the accuracy and the reliability you could get with all three!
    • It should be operational in 2008.

      It may be a long time to wait.

      However, the resolution of your (receiver) location will be 1 meter (a little more than 3 feet for the fellow Americans). This is much better than GPS.

    • While there hasn't been any official statement, the unofficial consensus is that Uncle Sam turned off SA to stunt the development of the European system. SA turns off - Much less need for an alternative.

      If that was their goal, it was a success. The European program got hurt badly by the deactivation of SA.

      Now, by the time it gets off the ground, the next generation of civilian GPS will be available. (I believe that there will be support for civilian dual-frequency - The current batch of satellites doesn't support it though, so it'll be quite a while.)
  • Just a warning I have the garmin eTrex vista which I like a lot but the garmin maps really suck. I got the topo quads only to discover they are missing many roads. If your missing roads its hard to have any sort of trails. I had an email exchange with garmin about this and the rep I was in contact with admited she had tried to use the maps on a AT trip only to find most of the AT was missing. And garmin would not take mapsource the product back. The unit works well with the Delorme maps which are really excellent.
  • I can't wait to get one of these. It'll be perfect for hunting in the mountains. Now, we'll be able to know exactly where everyeone is even if someone moves (it happens). I just hope they're not too expensive...

    Chris

  • What about privacy... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by QuantumRiff ( 120817 ) on Tuesday March 26, 2002 @02:56PM (#3230258)
    will this beam your location to only the person you want, or to anyone on that freq? I've used FRS radios for caravaning on long trips, and in big cities, or big events, there is a good chance of other people on the frequency. Does this specify who gets your location, or can anyone on that freq see that quantumRiff is standing in the bathroom??
    • Does this specify who gets your location, or can anyone on that freq see that quantumRiff is standing in the bathroom??

      The FCC does not allow encryption on Family Radio Service bands (47CFR95.183(a)4 [gpo.gov]) They usually don't allow data either - Garmin had to get the FCC to make a specific exception for the Rino.

      Anyone can listen in.

      • Guess my only issue with that is that Garmin has successfully lobbied the gummint to allow them to use data on the FRS channel, but then they're going to lobby the gummint to give them a monopoly on that "technology" (by applying for a patent).

        Guess I'd be happier (and more apt to buy one) if I thought it would be interoperable with other companies' devices.
        • but then they're going to lobby the gummint to give them a monopoly on that "technology" (by applying for a patent).

          I haven't looked at the patent application, but there's all sorts of prior art in this field. Most notably, APRS [navy.mil]. I wouldn't write off interoperability so soon. Besides, the patent wouldn't make Garmin much money if they can't license it. It's not like there's much consumer demand for features that only one vendor has any hope of providing.

  • One More Thing (Score:3, Interesting)

    by 4of12 ( 97621 ) on Tuesday March 26, 2002 @03:01PM (#3230290) Homepage Journal

    To make the functionality complete would be if each device could serve as a relay in a wireless network.

    [Assuming relay usage isn't going to chew up your batteries too much] you could relay messages further than the limited range that these devices have for direct point to point contact.

    Better, a few "wormholes" with stationary TX/RX that allow you to connect to land lines would be icing on the cake.

    • Better, a few "wormholes" with stationary TX/RX that allow you to connect to land lines would be icing on the cake.

      That would be cool, but the FRS freq. regulations explicitly forbid such uses.

  • "you can "beam" your location to other Rino"

    Great gift idea! Could somebody from friends make such a nice present to Osama Bin Laden?

    Thank you.
    • If you want to find Osama, just check the INS file, maybe they have issued a green card for him in the last couple of weeks.
      • good one.

        Wait a sec...Actually, nobody even considered this! So, make your conclusion. Well, you already did.

        PS. Hey, moderators, spend your Funny or even Insightful points on a parent one...

  • You could make a neat little networking system. Some friends and I have tossed the idea around for a while of a low-bandwidth P2P wireless infrastructure that would automagically relay messages to units outside the range of the transmitting unit.

    Since these things know where they are (geographically), they could configure themselves to do the routing in a semi-intelligent way.

    The routing would either be a complete nightmare or maybe just a good masters thesis. How about it, science?

    -Frank
  • a sneak peak

    What is that, a mountaintop that creeps up on you?

    Everyone has a spelling pet peeve. That's mine.

  • This sounds sweet, but my only question is what OS does it run? RhinocerOS?
  • Does anyone know if there's any handheld devices which support both GPS & VHF radio for marine use? Would be nice to have on the sailing boat :-)

    Thanks.

  • One of the biggest debates about this product is the use of FRS/GMRS to transmit data, when the FCC rules for these frequencies is pretty firm on their use for voice only.

    One website to refer to on these matters is the Popular Wireless Magazine BBS [popularwireless.com] forums (a UBBS system). The Rino product has come under discussion a few times, including Garmin's petitioning of the FCC to violate the 'voice only communications' rule:

    Before the
    Federal Communications Commission
    Washington, D.C. 20554

    In the Matter of

    GARMIN INTERNATIONAL, INC.

    Request for Waiver of Family Radio Service Rule Sections 95.193(a) and 95.631(d) to Authorize Manufacture, Sale and Use of GPS Transmission Enhanced FRS Units

    Request for Waiver of Sections 95.193(a), 95.193(b), and 95.631(d) of the Commission's Rules Governing Permissible Communications in the Family Radio Service
    ----

    More on that thread is located here [popularwireless.com].

    As a licensed GMRS user, I do worry what devices like this can do to the spectrum when they get popular. If it's implemented right, though, they'll be an incredibly useful tool.
  • Amateur radio has had a system called APRS for a while. This protocol, based on AX.25, periodically broadcasts the user's callsign and present coordinates. It's a really cool system; it's fun to watch a computer track the APRS coordinates of everyone in the city.

    -John
    (KG4RUO)
    • Yes! APRS is cool, and it's free, and there is a very nice web interface [findu.com] to it that which is really amazing. The guy that runs it is a real pro, despite his open source politics ;)

      I use APRS to track my favorite underground music icons [crackersoul.com].

      They have a GPS/APRS transmitter on the tour bus, so you can track its location in real-time [contentproject.com] (well, close).

  • While it's nice to see Garmin's continues
    signs of innovation - I can see parents &
    day-care workers (of kids & oldies) hand-
    ing one of these to each of the people in
    the charge, so that anyone wandering off
    can be found earlier.

    But - wait... there's more!

    Noting the complaint from a poster, who
    is saddled with a now-obsolete eTrax, I
    just thought I'd remind people of some
    of the other features that (I bet) will
    sooner or later work their way into the
    Rino family (or future successors).

    Have a look at UI-View (recently reviewed
    in the Feb 2002 issue of QST magazine;
    published by ARRL)

    Kenwood has dual-band (144 & 440 MHz)
    Amateur handheld (radio) handhelds &
    higher powered mobiles that have GPS
    interfaces.

    UI-View firmware is also in the radio.

    Of course, a small computer is a nice
    (but optional) addon to the radio+gps

    Now, COMING FEATURES include telemetry
    (read: Weather Data from distant auto-
    matic gov't & private weather stations)

    Also: each radio can act as a digipeater
    (so you can get position &/or weather
    data from farther away than your radio
    reaches by itself)

    Short messaging & broadcasts (to all)
    are also in the UI-View feature-list.

    Details are available (in the file areas
    of) UI-View Announce &/or UI-View eGroups
    (Yahoo!'s)

    There is a Win32-compatible Help file
    that tells it all...

    A 16-bit trial version provides -all-
    of the above features; registering it
    allows you to run the 32-bit version,
    which also connects a -fixed- station
    node to the Internet (or, for special
    applications, in high-use areas, pos-
    sibly an Intranet...?)

    Let's all look into UI-View, start de-
    manding (of Garmin) that they "skip"
    a few steps in the development chain,
    and fewer of us will feel like the
    posting eTrax owner, in future... ;-)
  • Great. Just what I need. Now my wife won't only know where I am, she can tell me to get the hell OUT of there as well.
  • Ham radio folks have been doing this trick for years, it's called APRS.

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