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Handhelds Hardware

Linux PDA Part Deux 101

Posted by timothy from the does-not-play-divx-files dept.
PolarCow writes: "Everyone's favorite Linux powered PDA retailer is back. Empower Technologies/LinuxDA are releasing a new variant of Linux-powered PDA. The new one is called the PowerPlay V. Its hardware is comparable to that of the Palm Vx. Thin, rechargable and with an enhanced display. I'm salivating already."
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Linux PDA Part Deux More

Linux PDA Part Deux

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  • What the hell is this? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by PopeAlien ( 164869 ) on Saturday December 22, 2001 @04:25PM (#2742121) Homepage Journal
    ..From the product info page:

    DataSync Program Only Available in MS Windows Platform

    ?
    • I'm guessing that you'd only need to make a ppp connection over the serial port to backup your data via scp/ftp/rsync/etc.. Hopefully there [are|will be] some tools to manipulate the databases similar to the pilot-link tools.

      next
    • If they would send me a few units and some specifications, I could probably retrofit pilot-link [pilot-link.org] to work with it, assuming it's using sane (documented) protocols.

      I asked the same thing of the Yopy [yopy.com] and and Agenda [agendacomputing.com] people, with exactly the same response... none.

      Their loss, not mine.

      It's not that these tools don't exist, it's that the vendors don't see the target market clearly enough to want to use them.

    • I have a linuxDA Powerplay III myself, I found that by using wine against "Winders" dll's and it works fine from my mandrake 8.1 desktop a little slow and small ( my res is 1280 x 1084) but definetly usable and there is a sdk available on their site if you want to make something your self

      p.s. I like mine and carry it around all the time
    • DataSync Program Only Available in MS Windows Platform

      But also on the product info page, they offer to sell you a CD with the source code of the device, for $20. OK, so one of us will have to do some work, but at least this is an open-source product - there is no proprietary protocol to reverse engineer.

  • maybe the best server OS is not the best PDA OS (Score:4, Informative)

    by Frothy Walrus ( 534163 ) on Saturday December 22, 2001 @04:34PM (#2742142)
    why does the Slashdot crowd get so excited when some random gadget runs Linux? do people think it has the same features as the i386 version?

    an i386 OS (like Windows or Linux) needs to be crippled all over the place before it will run on a PDA or some similarly tiny device. why do people assume that the best OS for the server/desktop is the best OS for the PDA?

    i'd rather have a ground-up PDA OS, myself. it's not like you can usefully share code between PDA Linux and regular Linux anyway.
    • Scalability! It's really exciting to see that Linux can be scaled down to reliably run on something like this. It's really neat that an OS can be written to run on 15mhz hardware with 8 megs of ram or a 60 ghz beowulf cluster with terabytes of ram.
      • Scalability! It's really exciting to see that Linux can be scaled down to reliably run on something like this.

        first of all, it's not that exciting, considering modern PDAs are almost as powerful the 386s on/for which Linux was designed.

        second of all, are you running services on your PDA? no, you're running apps. Linux excels at serving and is (sorry, everyone) dead last at usability. why port your problems to the PDA when you could start from scratch?
        • How is the Linux kernel dead last at usability? After all Linux only refers to the kernel. The "usability" you probably are referring to is the GUI that the user sees.

          My friend, that is not Linux. Linux is the kernel. The fluff that you use to interact with the kernel is the operating environment, to borrow from Sun's terminology. It's the distribution that the user sees. While you can whine about the "usability" of various distros, it is really a matter of taste. I like the command line. Many do not. For me, Debian is the distribution. For a Windows user looking around, I'd recommend Red Hat or especially Mandrake, since they are very much GUI-oriented. Seeing the RH7 installer made me very happy, since I could finally show the Windows users something they could relate to. For some reason, block graphics turn people off faster than, well, some very fast things.

          Linux is not just for servers. I've run it successfully on several desktops and my laptop. It's just what I could ask for. It can be point-and-drool if you want. It can be all command-line if you want. I'd say that it has better usability than some *ahem* other Operating Environments out there, since it gives you a choice and makes both of them just as good as the other. You're not herded into anything.

          Anywho, the point is wake up. Linux isn't just for geeks anymore. Anyone who would tell you otherwise is probably trying to sell you something (e.g. XP)
        • Reality check: The source code for modern linux probably doesn't share but a couple lines of code from the 386 designed days. Nowadays Linux is designed for running on many, many different platforms, and definitely not for a 386s. Its designed to be flexible and scalable.

          Second: If you "start from scratch" you are destined to repeat many mistakes. It is smart to leverage existing source code if it can be adapted to your uses. Due to Linux's design (see first paragraph), it can be used in PDAs, and is therefore a viable and attractive solution. Other larger copmpanies use Linux in PDAs (such as Sharp and Compaq), do you think they are stupid too?

          As far as usability, that doesn't have a damn thing to do with the kernel, that has to do with the applications in the user space. Each PDA company would have to write most of their own anyway (beside using Opera for instance, which is better than IE for PDAs actually), so you can make them plenty usable.
    • why does the Slashdot crowd get so excited when some random gadget runs Linux? do people think it has the same features as the i386 version?

      There is no reason why an embedded system should not boot a Linux kernel. That's exciting for exactly the same reason that a 16MHz 386 desktop with 4MB RAM booting Linux 0.99 was exciting. There may be more appopriate systems for PDAs, but I believe that Linux is currently the only free kernel to run on PDAs.

  • Problems with PDAs, Linux or not (Score:5, Insightful)

    by wackybrit ( 321117 ) on Saturday December 22, 2001 @04:35PM (#2742148) Homepage Journal
    I think PDAs are a great idea, and that everyone should have one. But PDAs have a number of flaws.

    1) If everyone is meant to have one, surely it should act as some sort of communications device too? Manufacturers are starting to pick up on this with phone/PDA devices such as the Nokia Communicator or Cybiko, but more effort should be put into this area of the market rather than just the OS.

    2) Bring prices down! I really can't understand the prices of PDAs, and that's why I don't have one. For a tiny thing with a color screen and 16MB of RAM they expect me to pay $300? Nuts.

    Perhaps Linux will help slash the prices, but do the OS and applications really suck up most of the $300? I doubt it. In fact, I'd imagine most of the costs of the typical PDA are thanks to giant R&D budgets and weird non standard components. Not to mention those expensive screens..

    Using Linux in an embedded setting is a start. But until we have a reasonably well functioned PDA for under $99, the majority of the population will not own one. And nor will I.
    • Along the same lines, I wish they would make mobile phones more like organisers. I don't mean like the Nokia Communicatior. It's way too big. My Nokia 8210 (GSM) is the right size, but I wish it had more memory and organiser features. If only phones were like PCs - hackable.
    • >2) Bring prices down! I really can't understand the prices of PDAs, and that's why I don't have one. For a tiny thing with a color screen and 16MB of RAM they expect me to pay $300? Nuts.

      Best Buy recently had HP Jornada 525's for $149. (256 color, ~150 Mhz SuperH3 processor, runs PocketPC stuff) Only 16 megs of ram, but you can get 256m online for around $80, makes one nice (and cheap) mp3 player!
    • You want communication? Drool over this:

      http://www.plantronics.com/bluetooth/products.ht ml

      Morel

  • Here's the picture! But is this any different... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Tsar ( 536185 ) on Saturday December 22, 2001 @04:49PM (#2742180) Homepage Journal
    From simply running Linux/DA on a Palm V or Vx?

    This page [linuxda.com] has good pix and stats for the PowerPlay V, though they're all CG. So does this thing really exist, and if so, why? Why not simply load Linux DA O/S for Palm [linuxda.com] onto a Palm Vx and get all the benefits of a Linux palmtop, including Windows-only desktop synchronization?

    Don't get me wrong—this all looks interesting, but if it's going to be based on cloned last-generation-Palm hardware, and it won't work with a Linux desktop, why is it important or appealing to anyone?

  • A Linux-PDA is useless for me without... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by rseuhs ( 322520 ) on Saturday December 22, 2001 @04:49PM (#2742181)
    ...Linux connectivity.

    Every PDA I've seen until now, comes with connectivity to MS Outlook on MS Windows, but none (including the Linux-based ones) come with connectivity to KArm and Kab.

    Although I welcome Linux on PDAs, I think it's not really the major issue at hand. What we need is connectivity to KDE.

    • Part of the open source idea is that you do it yourself, or within a collective of like minded indviduals who share information freely..

      What are you doing to further that?

    • On the other hand, there is connectivity to GNOME [gnome.org] for Palms; GNOME includes a Palm Pilot conduit to gnomecal, gnomecard, file system, and sendmail (among other things).

      Of course, I don't have a PDA, so I haven't experienced this firsthand, but it seems to me that it shouldn't be extremely difficult to sync Palm with GNOME, and sync GNOME with KDE, assuming reasonably interchangeable formats.

      I'm not sure what the situation would be in the case of PDAs running GNU/Linux... it might be possible for them to run a light version of whatever normal desktop apps are being used (much as is the case with Windows PDAs), which would make interfacing with the desktop much easier. Or do they already do that?

    • I am happy to report that I DO CURRENTLY sync my palm IIIxe with the Kab (KDE address book) using kpilot [slac.com] provided with KDE since version 2 i believe. It is very functionaland adaptable. The documentation even caters to those wishing to create thier own conduits and interfaces.

      I also use pilot-link [pilot-link.org] for very convenient command line interaction with my palm.

      I could be biased, but i these linux tools for palm transfers much more powerful than their windows counterparts!


    • Hear hear. And, while you're at it, build in sync support for Mac OS X--which technically should be in the same ballpark.

      With PocketMac [pocketmac.net] it looks like I'm going to be able to sync mail from OS X sooner on a WinCE device than on either Palm or a Linux PDA, and that's just plain wrong.

  • The best I've ever owned (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Daath ( 225404 ) <lp@NoSPAm.coder.dk> on Saturday December 22, 2001 @05:02PM (#2742214) Homepage Journal
    Is the one I have now, the Psion Revo [psion.com] - Of course it's not linux, nor WinCE - It's EPOC - an OS made for small devices - The revo is the best I've EVER tried - I've had three palmtops, and I've tried the HP jornada handheld (too big) - the Revo is just right. The fact that it has a keyboard makes the difference (I know the HP has too, but the device is too bulky).
    It's about 200 US$
    If I need to do linux stuff on it, I just use VNC for EPOC (get it here [imhotek.com] (downloads - bottom).
    Ok, the sync could be better, but you can't have it all.
    • Great... except that Psion is probably exiting the PDA biz [bbc.co.uk].

      -Russ
  • Forgive me but even a Linux-based PDA doesn't really thrill me. Here's why I feel they're useless:

    1. Poor Input methods. It is annoying to try to write everything into it. What PDAs really need are voice recognition.
    2. Poor connectivity. No one wants to plug them in. They should communicate using RF. They need to have at least 50KB/s wireless bandwidth so that you can get real information when you need it.
    3. The batteries should last a lot longer. They should probably operate for a week between charges. 3 days might be acceptable.
    4. The screens are not readable enough. When it's 75dpi in full color then we're getting somewhere.
    All this obviates the need for faster processors and a much better cellular network. Obviously the PDAs should have built in phones and have a standard for exchanging data with everything from large databases on the Internet to other PDAs on the street. Until we get a lot closer to this point all PDAs should be called PDBCs: Personal, Digital, Ball & Chains.

  • Big Deal (Score:3, Insightful)

    by mlknowle ( 175506 ) on Saturday December 22, 2001 @05:14PM (#2742233) Homepage Journal
    Still doesn't impress me; I'm not going to buy a linux PDA just because it is a linux PDA - until it does more, or at least untill it will sync with my Mac and my Linux box, it has no advantages over Palm OS.

    The reason I have a linux box is because it is the best for what I need it for; this same doctorine applies to PDAs; untill Linux PDAs DO SOMETHING better, I can't see them existing as anything other than a niche item
  • So what if it runs linux? I mean this in a practical sense.

    What impact does this have in terms of the user experience and/or the developer experience? Does having it run linux make some applications easier to write, etc.?

    • Basically it means, system requirements like memory, processor power, I/O channels being available, it can compile and run any application created for not only GNU/Linux but any reasonably compliant POSIX-compatible API -- that goes from z/OS (ex-OS/390, ex-MVS/ESA) Unix services to Cygwin under Microsoft Windows.
    • My humble opinion..

      You should hardly be able to tell at all that it runs linux from a (l)user end. If the device is correctly engineered, there isn't a reason to even advertise the thing as a linux device, except for to the developers. I hate to say this, but advertising a linux only PDA is going to scare a number of users away. If a company wants to attract main stream traffic (and thereby bring linux closer to the main stream), it must be seamlessly integrated into both the windows and linux worlds.

      Plus, the latest Zaurus is supposed to release in the usa in early 2002, and it's full color, linux based and has a whopping 206mhz strongarm proccesor.. and although many of you may not be big java fans, I am, and this suckers got a nice JVM built onto it, making aplication development not too difficult.

      http://www.sharp-usa.com/products/ModelLanding/0 ,1 058,699,00.html

  • Very bad experience with Empower Technologies... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by bc90021 ( 43730 ) <bc90021.bc90021@net> on Saturday December 22, 2001 @05:20PM (#2742243) Homepage
    I ordered their Power Play III. They said it would take six to eight weeks to ship.

    They charged my credit card within one day.

    Eight weeks later, I still had not heard anything, after emailing them twice.

    Finally, they responded to my email, and told me that my PDA would ship on the 19th of November, and that it would take an additional week to arrive.

    They would not give me a tracking number, no matter how many times I emailed.

    After the week was up, the PDA had still not arrived. I waited another three days, and still nothing.

    In the meantime, I had ordered the Sharp Zaurus SL-5000D [sharpsec.com], and I got it in eight days.

    I therefore wrote to the sales and info people at Empower Technologies, and I told them that I no longer wanted the PowerPlay III. They said they would issue me a refund, and since FedEx *still* had not delivered the PowerPlay III, that they would have FedEx return it directly to them and then issue me a refund.

    A day later, and two days after I got my SL-5000D, FedEx delivered it. I checked the Tracking Number to see that FedEx had delivered it somewhere else first, but apparently Empower didn't see fit to check that.

    So now I had a PowerPlay III that I no longer wanted, after being assured that Empower would have it directed back to them.

    I wrote them again, and they said *I* was responsible for shipping it back to them. Furthermore, I was to insure it, and then give them a tracking number!! Needless to say, I was rather upset (since they wouldn't give me one), and wrote them a nice but firm email. They changed their tune, and then told me that I would get "reimbursed" for the shipping.

    The next day, a FedEx guy showed up at my house (I was at work) to pick up the PowerPlay. Empower had called FedEx for a pick up order, but they did not tell me first!! Since I was at work, the package wasn't ready.

    Then they said they would have FedEx pick it up again. The package stayed between my doors waiting for FedEx to return for another week. They never did.

    Finally, I dropped it in a FedEx box, and it was redelivered to me. I got very upset at that point, and wrote to Empower that they had better call for FedEx pick up, and have them meet me. They have finally done that, and as of this morning, the package is on its way back to Empower. I checked "Bill To Sender" on the FedEx form, and the FedEx guy took it even though there was no account number.

    I have yet to see how long it will take to get my refund, but I am not holding my breath!!!

    In short, while more expensive, the Sharp Zaurus SL-5000D was a much better product, from a much more reliable company.
    • I realize I would probably have had the same troubles as you.. but in hindsight.. would you not have been better off to simply refuse the fedex shipment? Or can you do that.
      • Unfortunately, they delivered it while I was at work. The FedEx driver signed it as received by "Front Door". I did not get the opportunity to refuse the shipment.
    • I too waited the 6-9 weeks for my preorder. I called them on their posted phone number on their site and talked to friendly charming and concerned women who responded to my request about the delay in shipping she then gave me an email and confirmed the fedex ground shipping and gave me a tracking number I guess that it never acccured to some one to call be polite and ask for these things

      ps It pays to be firm but not threating I also like my unit I recieved

  • What's the point? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by SoupIsGoodFood_42 ( 521389 ) on Saturday December 22, 2001 @05:27PM (#2742264)
    160x160 screen, 8MBs RAM, bigger than a Vx.
    Runs an OS that looks like a clone of PalmOS but without the ability to run palm apps. Sure it's open source. But do you really need that in a PDA?
    Only syncs with Win (even palm syncs with Mac and Win).

    Why even bother? These people seem to be showing even less innovation than Palm.
    I just cant see a resaon why anyone (except a small minorty) would want this. They could have atleast had a sceen like the Handera 330.
    *sigh*

    • In response to your point:

      Sure it's open source. But do you really need that in a PDA?
      --I can only say that, if you think Open Source is a valid methodology/philosophy/religion in the first place, then it applies to any software-running device, from the smallest to the greatest. Availability of source, freedom to modify and redistribute, and freedom from dependence on (often unreliable) software vendors to provide bug fixes are all valuable attributes that don't rely on economies of scale.
    • Well, already the ladies always notice my sleak visor edge and want to play with it, but imagine when they see me grepping and making--We're talkin' 100 Vestal virgins on a tropical island now

  • This looks very similar to the Vtech Helio [myhelio.com] in terms of memory (2MB flash, 8MB SDRAM) and display (160x160 greyscale). The Helio lacks IRDA, but makes up for it with a 75MHz RISC processor with proper MMU as opposed to the Powerplay's 16MHz DragonBall. The Helio can also run Linux [sourceforge.net], but comes preloaded with Vtechs own VT-OS [myhelio.com].

    The Helio is also keenly priced. Brits can pick them up for £49.99 from the Carphone Warehouse [carphonewarehouse.com], whilst you chaps across the pond can get them from a number of sources [myhelio.com] (often for less than $50, apparently).

  • I have a question. (Score:3, Interesting)

    by mindstrm ( 20013 ) on Saturday December 22, 2001 @05:43PM (#2742304)
    Okay. I've owned a palmpilot before.. I've used them.... and they work fine for what they were designed for.

    HEre's what I want to know...
    What sorts of cool things can anyone do with one of these power handhelds? ipaq, etc (I don't know many). What's the nerd incentive here? I mean, just running linux on a $500 device is pointless if it has no purpose.

    So.. I ask you, linux based or not, what cool shit can you do with a PDA nowadays? Let's hear some real examples.. not 'theoretically you could do blah blah'.
    • Right now, I could really use a PDA for my new job, and probably not the job you would think. See, I'm a building inspector for a major entertainment arena. My job is to walk around and figure out what isn't right, write it down on a clip board and then enter the data in a spread sheet.

      Now, all in all, I'm pretty cool with walking aroung a huge facility (30+ acres!) and finding whats wrong, even though it's not the tech jobn of my dreams. However, I _hate_ to do data entry.

      With almost any pda, linux based or not, I could make my job easier and more effiecent by half. And I will.. as soon as I get and extra 125$ for a Handspring.

      Maybe it'll give me a reason to get cellular service as well.. anybody have comments about handsprings cellular/wireless internet components?

      josh
    • "So.. I ask you, linux based or not, what cool shit can you do with a PDA nowadays? Let's hear some real examples.. not 'theoretically you could do blah blah'."

      http://www.refalo.com/palm/interactive.htm
      http://infocom.gerf.org

      Download a few IF games. You'll be addicted instantly.

  • GNU/Linux PDAs are important for standards... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by DocSnyder ( 10755 ) on Saturday December 22, 2001 @05:48PM (#2742315)
    Unlike WinCE and PalmOS, there is no single variant of GNU/Linux on PDAs, and the variety is more likely to increase than to consolidate. Some of them run X and a common widget library like Gtk+ or FLTK, some don't and run QT on the framebuffer. One distribution may use the large glibc 2.2, a different one uses a reduced micro-libc. Of course the PDAs run GNU/Linux on different architectures. Some might even choose BSD instead of Linux for the kernel, or not even a Unix-like OS.

    It's simply impossible for an ISV to provide off-the-shelf software for GNU/Linux PDAs of any kind. The user won't install a different widget library or even an X server to run the software. He won't install a statically-linked binary of several megabytes in size. A Java engine is still too large at least for the less powerful PDAs.

    No, he should only need to install the _content_ and use it with some kind of standardized application - an email client, a web browser, an addressbook, a PIM, a media player, even a geographical map viewer for GPS or navigation.

    Today it's sheer incredible how proprietary data formats and protocols have established especially on PDAs, without anyone complaining about it. Exchange data with a desktop PIM? Read a book? Store news from a Web site for offline reading? In any case you'll need a special proprietary application on either the PDA or your desktop (Windoze) PC, or even on both. And all you care about is content, as much as you want to read Slashdot or some other web sites instead of just playing with Mozilla, Galeon, Konqueror, IE, Opera or whatever your favorite Web browser would be.

    Fortunately since both PalmOS and WinCE have their market share and GNU/Linux PDAs beginning to appear, there is no single handheld platform with a market share large enough to ignore anything else. So hopefully content vendors will discover that they'll only reach a larger customer base by either providing proprietary data formats and closed-source applications for a dozen of systems, or by using free specifications for their data which can be used on independent applications.

    Therefore it's especially the lowest-end GNU/Linux PDAs which contribute to the need of standards. An iPAQ, a Yopy or a Zaurus could easily have two or three different toolkits installed. A VR3 or a LinuxDA certainly can't.
  • Well, I'm ok with this, but just wondering if this is like the last attempt they made (ads in Linux on their demo?).
  • First of all, companies who charge an arm and a leg for thier devel apps are killing themselves. Mainly, it's MS who's doing this. The last I checked, thier WinCE devel platform was about $1000 .

    Go on haead, try and find free apps for it... All app makers HAVE to charge way bloated prices for thier programs.
    Josh Crawley
    • Uh, no.

      Everything you need to customize WinCE for a portable device is available FREE OF CHARGE. This includes the source code for the entire OS and development tools. Only when a company is selling devices using the operating system must they pay anything.

      Beyond that, I've owned and used several WinCE devices and have used tons of free apps for them. Again, it is quite easy to create apps for WinCE because the development tools are free. And developers aren't charged royalties of any kind of distributing WinCE applications.

      I give your post a -1,Ignorant.
  • I know I'm browsing at 3, but did someone miss this?

    Source code for Linux Kernel(CD) -------- US$20.00

    It can't cost that much to produce the CD, so what are they charging for?

    Nikkos
  • Is it, because they don't trust in our shiny new European currency? Hey, Linux is more popular over here, than in the US! Sell a PowerPlay 3 with a SDK CD for about 100 Euro, and apps shouldn't be an issue within no time...

  • I've been hacking around with the PowerPlay III (the Palm III) clone for about a month. My notes are at http://www3.sympatico.ca/howlettfamily/linuxda/not es.html

    In summary, I'm happy with the hardware but have serious reservations about the linuxda gui library and related apps. For hacking around, this thing is great, but I wouldn't keep my address book or calendar on linuxda until they fix the reset button and at least release the information so we can build a linux desktop sync app.

    For those who question the need for/usefullness of linux on a PDA - maybe you have not had the dubious pleasure of working with the PalmOS memory manager, or all the bizarre PalmOS translations of libc.

    later,
    Andrew.

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