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Handhelds Hardware

Treo, Combination Cellphone and PDA 178

Posted by michael from the itty-bitty-fingers dept.
-homb- writes: "Finally, Handspring has done it before everyone else: The Treo, a combination cellphone, wireless POP3 email, and PalmOS PDA. Plus, the first version comes with or without a keyboard. I love my Blackberry, and it looks like the keyboard is the way to go for email. And the next version coming later on next year will have color." We mentioned these earlier.
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Treo, Combination Cellphone and PDA More

Treo, Combination Cellphone and PDA

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  • it looks kinda like a make up kit.. especially where the screen is.. which kind of reflects the light in the advertisement like a mirror.. or is it just me ?

  • Mitsubishi (Score:5, Informative)

    by mckinlay ( 222722 ) <slashdot&ekto,ekol,co,uk> on Monday October 15, 2001 @01:59AM (#2429706) Homepage
    Hasn't the Mitsubishi Trium Mondo (a CE-based PDA/Phone) been available for a while?

    As a side note - I recently picked up a Sony CMD-J5 to find it also does SMTP/POP3 in addition to the normal WAP services - and the WAP browser (Microsoft Mobile Explorer) can cope with 'simple HTML' - it's good enough to browse Slashdot in 'light' mode, at least :)
    • The Microsoft browser also works with jpg's and animated gifs :) - at least im guessing it does on the J5, because it does on the Z5 (which is slightly older)

  • Springboard? (Score:3, Informative)

    by PopeAlien ( 164869 ) on Monday October 15, 2001 @02:00AM (#2429707) Homepage Journal
    Looks like they basically took this [handspring.com] springboard module and integrated it.. But this device doesn't have the springboard modularity. And quite frankly since using the iPaq, I can't see dealing with a greyscale 160x160 screen again..

    • Re:Springboard? (Score:2, Interesting)

      by brigmar ( 315810 )
      I noticed the lack of springboard modularity too.

      Funny that they should abandon what has basically been their chief selling point over the Palms.

      Anyhow, if you wait till mid '02, they're releasing a colour version ( Treo 270, $599 ).

  • Handspring first? (Score:5, Informative)

    by kristan ( 53139 ) on Monday October 15, 2001 @02:08AM (#2429723)
    Great product, nice to see more Smartphones, but first? You could have bought (months ago in some cases):

    Ericsson R320 (Symbian)
    Nokia 9210 (Symbian)
    Mitsubishi Trium Mondon (PocketPC)
    Sagem WA 3050 (PocketPC)
    Kyocera QCP 6035 (Palm)
    Qualcomm PDQ phones (Palm)

    I'm probably leaving some out. So, great idea yes, first, no.
    • I am leaving some out. I forgot the Motorola Accompli A008 with Java OS. And don't even get me started on fact that dual-band is not what I (or any other handset manufacturer) would call World Phone.
      • You probably missed the fact that the dual bands are 900 snd 1900MHz. Which makes the device useful in the US and passable for travellers to Europe, but the lack of 1800MHz support will kill sales in Europe.

    • Re:Handspring first? (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Troed ( 102527 )
      R380, not R320 .. I'm sure that was a typo :)


      The R380 is btw released as 380e, an updated (much faster) version with USB as well now.


      (and of these, the 9210 will appear in the us as 9290)


      Links:

      Symbian [symbian.com]
      Ericsson [ericsson.com]
      Nokia [nokia.com]

  • bluetooth (Score:5, Funny)

    by rassie ( 452841 ) on Monday October 15, 2001 @02:10AM (#2429727)
    So where is the bluetooth connectivity on this one?
    • > So where is the bluetooth connectivity on this one?

      How about generalizing that to "where is bluetooth connectivity?".

      Seriously, who cares? Nothing else seems to play with bluetooth, so what good will it do you to bundle in the hardware for it? Now I know there are a lot of pieces of hardware out there that claim bluetooth stuff, but does any of it actually work in a *gasp* usable manner?
  • Dual Band Worldphone?? Why would I want this thing, so my boss can get a hold of me while I'm on vacation in Europe? Fuck that! I'm not paying $400 to give people a way to distract my time off even more than they already do!
    • You know what? It has a power switch. Most phones do. You're only as accessible as you let yourself be.
    • Dont worry? Your standard GSM SIM card will not work OS unless you pay an extra fee with your Telco.

      The benefit is that when abroad you can buy a pre-paid GSM SIM card account so you are contactable to people you choose to give that pre-paid account's number out to.

  • kyocera Beat them to it. (Score:5, Informative)

    by Malcontent ( 40834 ) on Monday October 15, 2001 @02:11AM (#2429731)
    This [kyocera-wireless.com] device has been around for a while. As a bonus it's cellular therefore is available where GSM is not.
    • Well, if you want to pick nits, this [palmpower.com] has been around much, much longer.

      They don't make 'em anymore, though.

      • Well, if you want to pick nits, this [palmpower.com] has been around much, much longer. They don't make 'em anymore, though.

        Well, actually they look very similar, don't they. That's because the Kyocera phone is the Qualcomm phone.

        The company changed their name, or was bought out or something. The Kyocera phone is just the new model from the one with "Qualcomm" emblazened across it.

    • Got one.
      Pretty cool, but you can't use the jog dial to browse the contacts list without screwing up the Chapura conduit for lookOut2000, requiring a soft reset. Yeah, I know, using M$ products is like admitting you vote Socialist, but...
      It'll be cool when they come out with a version that also does GSM, should you ever be travelling abroad again.
      And, in case their executives read this, how about supporting USB and lowering the price of accessories? I'd buy an extra stand, charger, and data cable, (and the RS-232 to USB converter required for use with my laptop), the combined sticker price weren't half what I paid for the phone, for crying out loud.

    • CDMA is no more cellular than GSM

      GSM just happens to be the world standard, when will the Yanks understand this?
      • GSM may be the world standard, but the latest research reconfirms that GSM is likely far more dangerous than CDMA - the new studies show there's pretty much no doubt now that non-heating RF has deleterious biological effects. (The Slashdot editors don't seem to want to post articles on this subject, regardless of the validity or importance of such articles to the /. population.)

        Too bad Handspring built this thing around a GSM CancerPhone, since it looks like decent execution otherwise. Looks like I'll be staying with the Kyocera 6035 SmartPhone for a while...
  • Where in Canada will I be able to obtain this, and which digital network will provide service for this device? Cantel AT&T? Bell Mobility? Fido? All offer very different levels of service, and which network provider will be carrying this service will be a significant factor in it's purchase.

    • It's GPRS. Fido (in Calgary) mentioned they'll be rolling out their GPRS service Real Soon Now.

      • Oops (Score:1)

        by RichiP ( 18379 )
        My bad .. it says GPRS-upgradeable (or somesuch). As it is, it's a GSM 900/1900 phone.

        I think that would make it sufficient as a worldphone (where GSM is concerned) as most countries either support 900/1800 (Europe/Asia) or 1900 (America)

    • Re:In Canada (Score:2, Informative)

      by FeatherBoa ( 469218 )
      This is a GSM phone and the only GSM carrier operating in Canada today is Microcell Connexions. They do retail business as "Fido", but also re-sell bandwidth to a few small regional operators - eg: Cityphone.

      Microcell's GPRS service has been up and running for a couple of months now. It costs the earth though - 5 cents per Kilobyte or in bulk lots starting at $25 for 2 Meg.

      Rogers/AT&T is in the midst of rolling out a GSM network in Canada. It's not up yet, but some time next year when it goes live, they may start supporting this phone. They'll have GPRS too, once they're up.

  • I wonder if these smart phones will get mainstream or if they always ill be the tech kid's gadget. Take the nice Sony VAIO's for instance: nice machines, but too small to really "use". Will you read your e-mail on a smart phone? Do you get your mail subjects on your regular cell phone right now? Better question even: Do you want to?
    • Take the nice Sony VAIO's for instance: nice machines, but too small to really "use".

      Rubbish! I use a Sony Vaio Picturebook every day.

      Ok, so I have spine which resembles the curves of the Mississippi...
    • Well, I do check & write my mails with my Visor Prism connecting through a IR cell phone. I can tell you that sometimes being able to check your account on the go, without needing to go to your nearest plugging station is quite nice.

      Is true that truly "writing" mails in the Treo wouldn't be very feasible unless is possible to attach a real keyboard to it (I use Targus keyboard, and it's great).

      I don't know in USA, but here on UK SMS messaging is quite important. And being able to write with something slightly better that the numeric keypad would be beyond praise.
  • a beowulf clu.....

    you get the picture
  • What was the name of the PDA Cellphone combo from about 1993/1994? I remember seeing it in all the magazines back in the hayday of the Newton/Zarus/Psion/Zoomer/etc. It looked about the size of a household cordless phone (narrow, tall) but had a narrow, tall touch-sensitive LCD on it. As I recall, it wasn't anything too special, and wasn't compatible with anything, but it still was very cool

    I'll have to dig thru my old PopSci issues if noone else can think of it. I remember being wowed by that little gizmo.
    • it was called the Simon. It was developed by IBM and produced by Southwestern Bell. The biggest problem with it was the size, which was about that of a "grey" cell phone. The battery life was also wanting.
      The article in Byte about it doesn't seem to be available online, though I still have a hardcopy....God, I miss the old Byte....
      • From what I remember about the Simon it's PDA capabilities were very limited, it was more about Fax than diarys and such. I also think it was released at a loss, to see if the market would buy such a thing? An experiement that didn't go perfectly, causing IBM to decide against such development.

        Lots Of Love

        Bill
    • A guy (guy1) is dragging two obviously heavy suitcases through a trainstation, puffing heavily. Another guy (guy2) stops him and the following dialogue evolves:

      guy2: Excuse me sir, do you have the time

      guy1: (dropping suitcases) Sure, it's 10:25am
      guy2: Hey, that's a great watch. Seems to have some fancy stuff.
      guy1: Yeah it does. It has a built in phone, the ability to send faxes and it can encrypt any communication with a 124000 bit key
      guy2: (impressed) Wow, I'd like to buy that
      guy1: that's not all. it also has built in gps and you can display any map, anywhere in the world with your current position on the display.
      guy2: I really have to have this watch
      guy1: It further has the built in time tables of any public transportation anywhere in the world. Also, it manages your investments, calms down your spouse and boils a perfect tea, warns you of earthquakes and wins the lottery. I also plan to implement beaming capabilities, you know, like in Startrek.
      guy2: OK, I give you 1'000$
      guy1: This is impossible sir, it's a prototype. Building it cost me well over 10'000$.

      And so they haggle for quite some time until they finally agree on a price of 25'000$. Guy2 hands over the money, wears the watch, has a proud smile on his face and walks away.

      The seller with obvious effort lifts the two suitcases and yells:

      Hey man, don't forget the batteries...

  • I'm still waiting for proper handwriting recognition for the palm. The keyboard on the treo looks a little small, and after using the Psion series 5, I wouldn't settle for anything less.

    What Palm need is a cheap faster processor (XScale?) which can run proper cursive (joined up) handwriting recognition. I know the PocketPCs have this but >$300 for one is a bit steep for a student. Here's hoping Palm can cram this into something for roughly $150.

  • It's the *keyboard*... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by FreezerJam ( 138643 ) <`ten.xev' `ta' `htims'> on Monday October 15, 2001 @02:27AM (#2429754)

    Everyone's pointers to prior art seem to be missing the same thing - keyboard! People who have used the RIM find the keyboard faster and more accurate for short email messages.

    So that's the combo - Palm, cell, keyboard.

    Being GSM is not a problem - that's the direction that AT&T is headed, so that coverage is coming. And GPRS instead of cellular means that the mailer can step out occasionally to look for mail, without the network having to push it all the way down to the handset.

  • Some one should tell all the 'little girlies' that seem to buy new mobile phones every other month to keep up with the latest ring tone, vibrator mode, or plastic cover with mickey mouse on that a proper web able phone would let them use chatrooms.

    That would immediately become the new killer app. They would kill their brother for one! They would become mass market items, the price would plummet!

    Then 'we' wouldn't be forced to pay stupid amounts of money for this kind of kit, on expensive tarriffs.

    They'd be Xmas present territory!
    How good would that be? We should start a campaign!

  • What kind of "service activation" in mentioned there?

    $399 with service activation
    $549 without service

    Phone activation on which company? Am I missed something here? Thanks

  • It's missing 1800Mhz band (Score:5, Insightful)

    by popeydotcom ( 114724 ) on Monday October 15, 2001 @02:41AM (#2429774) Homepage
    So where the spec says it's a 'world' phone, it aint.

    IMO 900MHz + 1800MHz + 1900MHz = world phone.
    • > So where the spec says it's a 'world' phone, it aint.

      > IMO 900MHz + 1800MHz + 1900MHz = world phone.

      IANARF, but 1800 is (usually) available only when 900 is. There is "localnets" that are only 1800 (innner city areas), but even in US they're not that common because of long distances involved.

    • So where the spec says it's a 'world' phone, it aint.

      IMO 900MHz + 1800MHz + 1900MHz = world phone.

      Yep, I agree. Sounds like they think it's a world phone because they've combined the frequency only the US uses (1900) with another one (900) of the two which the world uses.

      Without 1800, it's not quite worldly enough for any non-Americans to buy. Only Americans who occasionally travel overseas would be happy with the worldliness.

      As an Aussie who often travels to the US, it's not good enough for me.

    • Um... Note that they're selling both a 900/1900 version, and a 900/1800 version, which is targeted to Europe.

      I'd assume that's what you'd want.
      • Um... Note that they're selling both a 900/1900 version, and a 900/1800 version, which is targeted to Europe.

        Exactly my point. The 'Europe' version, sure enough uses the two frequency ranges which we in Europe use. Yes I am based in Europe, and I use a network which is predominantly 1800 (Orange). So if I go to the US, I can't use the 'Europe' one.. The 'World' phone should have all three. This isnt a first by any means, there are tri-band phones out there.. Bosch do one, funnily enough, called a 'World phone'..
    • As another poster pointed out, 1800MHz is generally available where 900MHz is. So in effect, the 900/1800 version (sold in Europe and Asia, not in the US) does _not_ work in the US, therefore it is definitely _not_ a worldphone.

      OTOH, the 900/1900 version (which is sold in the US only, AFAIK) works in Europe, Asia _and_ the US. Therefore the 900/1900 US version of Treo is a world phone. Only a few people in Europe and Asia with existing 1800MHz-only plans will be affected (ie. they have to change their plan or carrier, not a major issue).

      This leads to the conclusion that I want the US version since it works pretty much everywhere (1800 would be a nice addition, but just that). According to the US FAQ I can only buy the US version if I get a friend to send it overseas. Ok, fair enough.

      But Treo costs $549 without a service plan, $399 with a service plan. Again, according to FAQ, I can buy the phone in the US online, and then it is up to me to activate the plan. So, I'd like to know if I can buy the "with plan" version for $399, "forget" to activate the plan, ship it to the fatherland and use it happily with my existing SIM-card. This way I would have Treo with worldwide capability for $399 plus shipping. I'd like to know if the $150 difference is via a rebate, or if Handspring trusts its online clients to activate the plan (not likely). Anyone know how they do these things in the US?

      I can't believe Handspring Europe doesn't offer the 900/1900 version in Europe (AFAIK). I have to go through all this trouble to get a Treo with worldwide capability. Typical, a company cripples a good product (perfect for me) with crappy distribution (see DVD players).

      Of course, if I can get it for $399 from US, it'll be cheaper than what they would sell it over here even if it was available. As most Europeans know, shipping products over the pond raises the price of electronic products 50-100%. Amazing, isn't it?

      I guess I'll write a letter to Handspring Europe...
      • Well, when I bought my VisorPhone a few months ago, I had to choose a service offered on the Handspring website and sign-up with Cingular (Bell South) through Handspring...

        I had to commit to 1 year service, if I drop the service within that year, I pay full price for the VisorPhone...

        So far, it's been great!

  • ...Kirk to Enterprise
  • It's as thin as their Visor Edge (0.4") and has a TypeII Card adaptor (so it can handle IBM microdrives).

    Then you'd have a PDA/cellphone/MP3 player.

    Give it a 200dpi screen, and you'd have a book too.

  • Wireless Valhalla: Why the Treo will be a hit... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by zdryer ( 22042 ) on Monday October 15, 2001 @02:50AM (#2429789) Homepage
    The Treo is the innovative product the Palm community has been expecting from Handsping, and I believe it will be a huge success. Here, in no particular order, is why:
    1) Size. Have there been other smartphones? Yes. Like this [handspring.com]? No. This is neither a clunky phone-grafted-onto-an-organizer [kyocera-wireless.com] nor a strange organizer-grafted-onto-a-phone [nokia.com]. This is a truly integrated product. It is small enough that I will finally be able to ditch my Palm/OmniSky and Nokia for one pocketable device.
    2) Keyboard. Even though I've used Graffiti for several years, I have to admit that it is still a pain. Some may disagree, but the fact is that the vast majority of users will be able to enter text faster and more accurately with a QWERTY keyboard--even a thumb keyboard. If you think such keyboards are too small, just look at the success of the RIM Blackberry to see how much people love them.
    3) Software. Handspring has done a great job integrating the Palm OS with the phone. They didn't just include a "Dial" app, they've included Blazer (their wonderful browser), Messaging (SMS), Phone Book (a Palm Address Book upgrade that has dialing capabilities), a POP3 client, etc. Out of the box, this will be a true Internet phone.
    4) GSM. My fellow Americans may question this (since GSM has relatively limited coverage in the U.S.), but GSM was the right choice for Handspring. When GPRS rolls out (in the U.S. Voicestream has already started), you will be able to upgrade your Treo to support an "always on" wireless connection. Always on is much better than dial-up, even Sprint's "Quick Network Connect" dial-up (which basically just means that Sprint PCS is your ISP). Other, more popular U.S. mobile standards (CDMA, TDMA) are not moving to always on as quickly as GSM (although I've heard reports AT&T is upgrading to GPRS), and a true smart phone needs an always on connection. The other (obvious) advantage of GSM is that Handspring can sell the Treo in Europe and Asia.
    Anyway, I will certainly buy a Treo when it comes out, and I think many others will too. The real question is how the Treo will stack up to competitors like the Danger Hiptop [danger.com].

  • No GPRS, limited Graffiti support (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Cato ( 8296 ) on Monday October 15, 2001 @02:53AM (#2429794)
    This is an interesting device, but I see a few problems:

    - no GPRS at launch time - this is amazing given the early 2002 launch, surely this device is meant for GPRS? There are already several Pocket PC devices with GPRS that can be bought today (in Europe anyway), but I'm still waiting just for an *announcement* of a Palm OS device with built in GPRS support. The device is meant to be software-upgradeable, but it's unclear when that upgrade will be available.

    - can't use Graffiti with keyboard version - there is no built in Graffiti *at all* with this version, not even a pop-up Graffiti window. You have to download a third party tool to do this. What are Handspring thinking?

    And Handspring are still using Palm OS 3.5 for no very good reason, and still not using flash for the OS (unlike virtually every mobile phone). The openness, software and integration looks nice, but until they fix these issues I'll just have to carry on waiting.
    • Well, there is currently (at least in the US) no actual GPRS network outside of test sites, and from what I've heard, it'll take a few months before those networks will be up.

      The Treo is definately intended for a GPRS upgrade, and that upgrade looks to arrive roughly around when GPRS actually starts being available.

      As for graffiti, after using this thing for a few weeks, I became a keyboard convert. You can run it off just the jog rocker for many things, and typing an email on a keyboard (which is very usable) takes a heck of a lot less time than graffiti.
      • GPRS is a lot more widespread in Europe - it's been out between 3 and 12 months depending on country and operator, with reasonable coverage although still a bit beta-quality. My main issue with dropping Graffiti is that it's still very useful for some things where you already know Graffiti - however, if they include a stylus with the keyboard version, that would probably be enough for 'mouse' type GUI interactions rather than writing (although you then have the pain of switching from keyboard to stylus).
    • Did you look at the article at all? There is both a graffiti version, and a keyboard version, same price. This is quite clearly mentioned both on the page, and in the serveral pictures throughout the site.
      • Yes, I read the article and I also read the FAQ in detail, as well as all the other pages on the Treo...

        Note that my post said 'No Graffiti *with the keyboard version*' - the point is that the *keyboard version* of this product does not have *any* built-in Graffiti support.

    • It looks like a nice unit, a combination of my VisorPhone (alas long departed) with the keyboard of my Motorola text pager with my Visor Platinum. The only big flaw to me is the loss of the Springboard slot - Handspring's FAQ [handspring.com] indicates that they intend not to engineer this in to the Treo in the future either.

      can't use Graffiti with keyboard version - there is no built in Graffiti *at all* with this version, not even a pop-up Graffiti window. You have to download a third party tool to do this. What are Handspring thinking?

      I think they are thinking that people jonesing for graffiti will use a third party application/hack [visorvillage.com] to use the full screen for handwriting recognition. Or maybe voice recognition [infoworld.com] will really take off now.

  • Right... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Breace ( 33955 ) on Monday October 15, 2001 @02:54AM (#2429795) Homepage
    Finally, Handspring has done it before everyone else

    From the website: Coming early 2002

    Sounds to me they haven't done anything yet.

    Talk about being first: I bought my Nokia Communicator many _many_ years back. (mainly for the l33t telnet client hehe)

  • Well this is a dilemma, i already have too many damn palms laying around (a VII, IIIc and a Handspring Visor Deluxe I got as a gift) and i had intended to pick up an ipaq, but i'll be damned if it doesn't look like this is a much better solution.

    except for:
    why so damn tiny? who asked for something that is only slightly larger then a WAP enabled cell phone display.

    the iPaq [compaq.com] (which my spellchecker wants to call Iraq) has a cell phone module pending [cnet.com], and it will also do GPS. And if you are married to the PalmOS and want color today you can get the color Handspring Visor Prism [handspring.com] and add the Cell Phone module [handspring.com]for free (with activation) only with neither of these you don't get the spiffy keyboard... (heh) also the prism isn't as quick as the the Treo, though it does have a bigger 16-bit color display today .

    oh hell i just talked myself out of the Treo, and another palm... because well... even though i have heard that the cell phone springboard module actually rocks, the PalmOS development seems to be stagnating while the iPaq not only does every goddamn thing in the world and with a better diplay, you can also jack linux [handhelds.org] into it when you get sick of WinCE.

    man... as a long time Apple guy (easy angry kiddys, i have been building x86 boxes since before you were born and EISA was a hot new bus archetecture) i really hate to see what was once the innovator and hands down best hand held solution (PalmOS) get trumped by another microsoft branded product... i'd help them if i can but i already have three...

  • 3 things (Score:4, Insightful)

    by haunebu ( 16326 ) on Monday October 15, 2001 @03:22AM (#2429831) Homepage
    In order to create a successful wireless platform, you're going to need 3 vital things:

    1: Good hardware. Handspring doesn't have it. They've got a 33Mhz 16-bit Motorola Dragonball processor. It can (slowly) serve the most basic mobile data needs (email, instant messaging), play a couple of neat little games, and be a pretty effective organizer, but that's about it. Palm OS devices are stuck at 8 or 16MB's of total capacity, which sure as hell means you won't be storing any large files (movies, MP3s, etc) on it. They need modern hardware, like an ARM-derived platform, to overcome these inherent limitations. (I know, I know, Palm says it's working on it, but that was supposed to materialize how long ago now??)
    2: Good software. The Palm OS is an old, creaky 16-bit rag that maxxed-out its potential back in '98. Memory isn't protected, there is no support for multi-tasking, and just getting color on that thing was a chore and a half (you still find it only on the most expensive devices). You need a modern 32-bit OS like Symbian's EPOC [symbian.com] (or even Pocket PC 2002) to do these things natively. Along with a modern OS comes support for faster, better hardware (both Symbian EPOC and Pocket PC run on ARM-derived RISC processors), and more storage space (like IBM microdrives).
    3: Decent network support.The Treo has network connectivity tacked-on as an afterthought. Again, this is the Palm OS's fault, not Handspring's. Back in the day, the Palm OS just wasn't designed to be doing the job it's doing now. But other mobile operating systems were built around this stuff, and can handle wireless network protocols natively. Microsoft's Smartphone platform [microsoft.com] (code-named Stinger) is set to be deployed in GSM and CDMA networks all over the world next year, and Nokia's 9210 (running on EPOC) will be in both the European/African/Asian and American GSM markets. It'll be pretty simple to add GPRS/EDGE (and then UMTS) support to the device because that's what it was designed to do.

    I applaude Handspring for forging ahead, but they've inhereted a real huge (possibly fatal) liability from Palm with that ancient operating system.

    • Re:3 things (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward
      If Palm upgrades the hardware to something else, then they are kissing the installed base of software goodbye. The best they can do is to emulate the existing hardware for the apps with native code for the OS. (ie all the hacks (interrupt vector code) that make user customization to the Palm OS would be broken.) Anything beyond that, you might as throw in a dragonball CPU with the new one and dual boot just like Gameboy Advance.

      The current Palm is too expensive for the tiny display and slow CPU. The OS sucks big time (eg lack of file system/directory). The only saving grace is that the OS rarely rarely crash. This is something Microsoft should learn.
    • Believe it or not, there are some people in this world who still prefer to watch their movies on their 35" TV's, not their 3.5" PDAs, so I'm not sure why one would need to store movies on their handheld computer. And I doubt your iPaq has the several gigabyte capacity of a DVD, either.

      How many things does the average human do at one time? Okay, walking AND chewing gum, that's two. I can't imagine why PalmOS needs multitasking. On WinCE, each app has to "load" into memory (from where? other memory?). Too many apps "open" and it'll crash. Why? PalmOS runs them from where they are, and each app is left in it's current state when you switch to something else. What's the problem here? I'm not planning to run SETI in the background.

      "tacked-on as an afterthought" and "handle wireless network protocols natively". By that logic, memory over 640k is an "afterthought" for Windows. WinCE is forked from Windows, which is descended from DOS, so I don't see how wireless protocols are any more native here.

      I hope that Palm and Handspring continue to develop along the lines that made them popular. There are some things that a PDA needs to do well, and all the flashy stuff is, IMO, just for impressing your friends.

    • yes, but... (Score:3, Interesting)

      by mj6798 ( 514047 )
      Indeed, both the software and hardware on PalmOS are old. And their handhelds are way overpriced for what you get in terms of hardware. But they do what they were designed to, and they do it well. Furthermore, there is a lot of software available for them, both on the device itself and on the desktop. You can develop for PalmOS on different platforms, and all PalmOS data can be accessed from any platform.

      What's the alternative? Microsoft's handheld platforms are nowhere near as usable, mature, or efficient as PalmOS. But unlike Palm, the Microsoft handheld platforms also really don't want to talk to anything other than Windows, and you can't develop for them on anything other than Windows.

      As far as I'm concerned, PalmOS is still the best game in town for handhelds and phones. Maybe some of the Linux-based devices will make it out the door at some point. Maybe Palm will come out with a decent, modern 32bit OS soon. But I doubt Microsoft ever gets a clue and starts untying their different systems from one another or starts using open, well-documented ways of storing data; and until they do, I think it's foolish to put your data on their devices.

    • Palm OS devices are stuck at 8 or 16MB's of total capacity

      No, I believe they are stuck to 16M per chip select with four chip selects. One CS is used for the ROM, one for main memory, and Handspring uses two for the Springboard. It might be 32M per CS though, and this is a DragonBall limitation, not an OS limit, nor an instruction code limit, if they switched to a different 68000 derivative they could address 4G (or more, painfully). In fact since PalmOS machines are one of the lead uses of DragonBalls (the Blackberry oddly enough being another big user), having a respin with more addressing lines might not be too hard (depending on packaging), if Mot can be convinced Palm won't jump to the ARM before it buys enough of them. After all the instruction set uses a full 32 bits per address, so going from 24 bits to 25 (or 25 to 26) won't be a huge R&D challenge!

      The real reason you don't see a ton of RAM on the PalmOS machines is they don't have enough CPU to do the "Find" if you put too much crap on them. It is a fine balance, one that was made well four or so years ago, but does not serve them well anymore.

      The Palm OS is an old, creaky 16-bit rag that maxxed-out its potential back in '98.

      No, it is an old, creaky 32-bit rag that maxxed-out its potential back in before it was released. Or at least it is a mostly 32-bit OS.

      Along with a modern OS comes support for faster, better hardware (both Symbian EPOC and Pocket PC run on ARM-derived RISC processors), and more storage space (like IBM microdrives).

      Moving to the ARM does seem to be Palm's published future direction, including an emulator for the old 68000 code (so you can beam 68k apps from an old Palm to a new one), and much talk of fat binaries that can run on both at full speed. I had half expected it to go to the PowerPC because they seem to be running along making all of Apple's old Mac mistakes...

      (P.S. I'm pretty sure the PalmOS powered TRG Pro can run the IBM MicroDrive)

      Again, this is the Palm OS's fault, not Handspring's

      You can blame Handspring, after all it was Jef Hawking that ruthlessly trimmed everything from the original Pilot 500 (5000?) to get it to work decently with the almost no resources it had. The same guy that left Palm to found Handspring. Of corse I think if he hadn't crippled the Palm platform long term in order to make the short term work the Pilot would be yet another failed PDA (and there may have been no true success) rather then the rapidly fading leading PDA.

  • Can you run it on Linux? ;-)

    • Well being hardware I doubt that you can run it on Linux...

      ... although I supposed (in theory) somebody might be able to write an emulator for it that runs under Linux ...

      ... and it won't be too long before someone has ported Linux to it - afterall you can get Linux for other devices that come with PalmOS.
      • That's what I meant. I don't think it would take long for someone to port Linux across, but I wonder if the phone stuff is handled in proprietary software? In that case a phone running Linux wouldn't work as a phone unless someone reverse engineer the phone bit.

    • Re:I wonder... (Score:1, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward
      once these companies switch over to arm processors for their palm devices, Linux should be ported to them w/o too much trouble.

      Palm is supposed to have the port done next year... then we get to hijack their hardware;)

  • FAQs (Score:4, Informative)

    by brigmar ( 315810 ) on Monday October 15, 2001 @03:29AM (#2429843)
    The FAQs for the Treos are here. [handspring.com]

    Quick sum-up:
    Treo 180 = Keyboard, 180g = Graffiti.
    No Springboard functionality.
    Colour due mid 2002 (extra $200!!).
    North America providers = Cingular, VoiceStream, Rogers AT&T, Microcell.
    Trade in available for VisorPhone customers.
    CDMA version in the works.

  • ringer scheduling (Score:3, Interesting)

    by cosyne ( 324176 ) on Monday October 15, 2001 @03:29AM (#2429845) Homepage
    The one thing I really want from a phone/PDA combo is to have checkboxes for appointments to turn the ringer off, and back on when the event is over. I usually forget and leave my ringer on untill someone else's phone rings during class, and then turn the ringer off, forget, and leave it in vibrate until I miss a call. It's not _that_ big a deal because nobody ever calls me, but it would be a nice feature anyways ;-)
  • I like the idea but, they aren't the first (as mentioned before) and they have one marketing flaw:
    they are ugly as hell Plus you'll need a Magnifying glass to actually READ your mail...
    back to the drawing board guys
  • This is not the first cell phone/palm... it is however the coolest looking one looks like they tool a lot from the Motorola i1000 the one that can flip up that's a Nextel phone.

  • Where's the IMAP mail client? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by the way ( 22503 ) on Monday October 15, 2001 @04:16AM (#2429893)
    These look really yummy :-) But the mail client seems to be POP-3 only... Where's IMAP? IMAP is _way_ better for cell phones because on the slow connection you don't want to download attachments, and with IMAP you can just read the mail bodies. And with IMAP the email stays on the server so you can deal with attachments when you get back.

  • Damn you! (Score:4, Funny)

    by norttipertti ( 167435 ) on Monday October 15, 2001 @04:21AM (#2429901)
    Oh no, not again!
    Must... get... chastitybelt... for... creditcard.
  • This Samsung phone [sprintpcs.com] looks more practical to me in the short term: Palm interface and PalmOS, color, and dual-band. Yes, I wouldn't mind having the keyboard and GPRS of the Treo, but who knows when the Treo will actually be shipping, what the service availability and coverage will be, what kind of surchages they will add, etc.
  • What was Handspring thinking? The SpringBoard slot is the only reason I purchased a Visor as opposed to a Palm or Sony device.

    Without a SpringBoard slot, what compelling reason would I have to purchase Visor if there are equivalent offerings from Palm and other PalmOS licensees?

    Not having a SpringBoard slot just insures that a competitor can quickly bundle in equivalent functionality into their offerings.

    A SpringBoard slot on this would rock! I'd love being able to take a quick pic using my Eyemodule, and email it to someone!

    I sense desperation here.
    • There's two intersting things about the Treo.

      Firstly, it's the first time one of these phone/pda combo's has been made by a PDA company. Everything else has been made by a mobile phone company.

      Secondly is that they appear to have a clear perception of the seperate phone and PDA market requirements. That's why it's been made smaller - to make it fit your hand more like a phone. The missing springboard slot is probably related - it's size issue. Also I suspect that this is similar internally to the visorphone, so there might have been hardware conflicts if they tried to put a slot in. The keyboard is also a nod to mobile phone users, who expect an un-useable keyboard instead of graffitti. ;-)

      It's interesting, but will it hold up against the Pocket-pc equivelants like that BT O2 thing (again, made by a mobile phone company, not a PDA company).
  • Compaq'2 product website for the IPaq shows a new Expansion sleeve that turns your IPaq into a phone see: http://www.compaq.com/products/handhelds/pocketpc/ options/expansion_packs.html for Details, though not sure if you can slot a CF or PC card at the same time. and It's GSM/GPRS system compliant.
  • "Coming early 2002"

    > Finally, Handspring has done it before everyone else

    Bill Gates has taught you well, slashdot contributor.

  • Missing:

    Color (c'mon B&W is growing old)
    Video (a la casio E115) or mp4 codec support
    Microdrive
    Camera (for video phone or whatever, camera is cool, need it. heh...)

    If they want me to pay 600$ canadian for that thing, ish... not!, having a cell phone and a palm III right now is okay with me and it costed me a fraction of that, but I'd be willing to pay a bit more than 600$ if it would have all the features mentionned above, and I am sure a lot of other people here would just drool over a jam-packed pda like that.

    • How many minutes of battery life do you think you'd get with all that stuff...? If you want this much flexibility, get a Visor, which can plug in most of these things, or an iPaq with a CF sleeve. The point of the Treo is to have a compact device that works well as both a phone and a mini web/email/IM device. It would be nice to have colour, but GPRS is quite a power hungry technology, so it's probably best at the moment to stay monochrome and have a longer battery life using GPRS.

      Once they manage to do the 'push email' feature a la BlackBerry, of course, everyone has the interesting prospect of spam or other unexpected email actually draining the batteries...
  • Finally, Handspring has done it before everyone else

    A coworker of mine currently has (and has had for over a month) a combo cell-phone and Palm III PDA after he got tired of his separate cell-phone and Palm V.

    He said he got it from AT&T, I believe - I don't know if it has the whole POP3 email thing, but it is a combo unit.

    The Palm forms part of the screen, and the microphone flips down revealing the full thing, and I think a keypad underneath for dialing. It actually isn't a bad integration, though it is a little wide.

    I checked on AT&T's website for it though, no dice - maybe it is discontinued?
  • I have a normal Sanyo 4500 phone (Sprint PCS) and it has a built-in calculator, games, web browser, messaging, etc. I use it for web & email more than for phone calls actually. It cost me $50. I've yet to see a good PDA sell for that much. Now if only they'd make it possible to jack into their network over the Internet and add an 802.11b interface to the phone. :)

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