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Handhelds Hardware

Pocket PC 2002 305

Posted by michael from the things-to-break dept.
Microsoft is holding some sort of launch event today for a pile of new Pocket PC devices. Pocket PC Thoughts has a bunch of news items; PDA Buzz has a report and pretty comparison chart looking at the different models, and I'm sure people will post more links in the comments. So, is this the mighty Palm-killer?
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Pocket PC 2002 More

Pocket PC 2002

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  • Colonel Mustard did it in the CompUSA (Score:5, Interesting)

    by szcx ( 81006 ) on Thursday October 04, 2001 @01:25PM (#2388898)
    Palm is the mighty Palm killer. Pocket PC (and now Pocket PC 2002) are just nails in the coffin.

    There are warehouses full of Palm devices they can't give away while HP, Casio, and Compaq are having trouble manufacturing Pocket PC's fast enough to meet market demand.

    • Good ridance Palm. That's what you get for sitting on your ass and making out-dated technology, when you know there are features that users are demanding, but you're just too lazy to innovate.

      That's also what you get for giving out cheap plasic styluses as spares, instead of a metal ones, like the main stylus. And for using crappy power buttons (Palm V). And for not being to able to sort contacts by their first name, etc...

      Palm OS is easy to use, and reliable. But it is still missing lots of basic things, that should be there, that will NOT clutter or otherwise reduce the 'simplicity' of Palm.
      Simplicity in an OS, is not about how many features it has. It's about how they are accessed, and how they work.

      M$ board members, CEOs, markering dep. may be 'evil'. But PocketPC have been improved vastly since I used WinCE on my HP 680. So someone there is actually doing something good.

      I have a funny feeling that my Palm Vx will be my last Palm product. I just wish those PPC makers could get there hardware down in size!
      Who knows, maybe that linux version of Palm OS might take off, along with Handera.

    • What's really sad is that most of the mothballed Palm hardware is more than capable of providing everything the average PDA buyer needs -- that is to say that it works plenty well enough to realise that a PDA is yet another device that you can't use without reading the instruction manual, and that they hate computers. Seriously, I've had someone suggest that I should start a business to (and I'm paraphrasing here) learn how to use a PDA for people.

      Palm should stop all production and clear their old inventory.

  • Not at those prices! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by FreezerJam ( 138643 ) <smith@v[ ]net ['ex.' in gap]> on Thursday October 04, 2001 @01:25PM (#2388899)

    Unless these pocket PCs start being a lot cheaper, Palm still has some edge.

    These are certainly nice and all, but with all those high performance processors, high memory, color screens - the price keeps running up. These are going to dominate the "pocket pc" category, and at the typically higher price, they have to be a 'pocket pc', because you couldn't afford a desktop as well. (If you can afford the desktop as well, then you're likely above the mass market.)

    I'll still take a Palm-class device plus a good (and not pricey) desktop rather than a pocket pc anyday.

    • You're kidding right? I got my ipaq for $150 from comp usa. It is the grayscale 16meg version, but still very nice and functional.

      cheese
    • Sure, if you don't want color, or MP3, Palm is certainly the best bet hands down. But if you're going to step up to color and MP3 Capability you're talking a $500 Clie N710c. Now... the Clie is a supercool machine, but for $500 you can also pick up a iPAQ with 64 Meg, vs 16 on the Clie. I'd go after the iPAQ myself in this case.

      These Pocket PCs are competitivly priced with the highend Palm OS machines right now. They have no low-end like palm does, but they're only aiming at high end buyers right now.

      Low end palms are affordable for just about anyone right now, but execs are going to be more likely to pick up the pricey, and flashy pocket pc. That's what they're looking for...

      • MP3? Bah! (Score:3, Interesting)

        by Kris_J ( 10111 )
        MP3 drains too much power on PDAs, and there's the problem of having headphones connected to something you use like a PDA. I have the MP3 add-on for the Ericsson T28 and it's a much better option. Hardly any batter drain, and when I get a phone call not only do I actually hear it, but it automatically pauses the music and answers the call, then when the call ends the music starts again.

        Audio functionality together, visual functionality together (Like my TRGpro and Kodak Palmpix), Audio/Visual functionality apart. Then communicate with something like Bluetooth.

    • I'm in the middle of one of my regular upgrade lusts, and since the m505 is more expensive than the 32Mb ipaq...

      OK, I'm comparing the best palm with (pre pocket pc 2002) the 2nd best pocketpc, and certainly you can go down in price much easier with palm. But just how much better is a Visor neo than my old Palm Pro was? Slightly better screen? A bit faster? Slightly bigger memeory?

      Still, pocketPC 2002 doesn't help my lust. The new Jornada is wonmderful, but a consequence of it, and the new ipaq etc. is that prices on the original ipaq will drop.

  • PDA Virii? (Score:4, Funny)

    by Bonker ( 243350 ) on Thursday October 04, 2001 @01:26PM (#2388905)
    So, is this the mighty Palm-killer

    Yeah, right up until someone modifies Code Red or Nimda to attack unpatched PocketPC's over their wrieless connections:

    Executive 1: Hmmm... My PDA is being slow today. I wonder why?

    Executive 2: Why did you send me this file to have my advice?

    Executive 3: Boy, my pocket PC sure is heating up. It never used to heat up like-- AAAHHH!!! I'M BURNING! I'M BURNING!

  • snooze (Score:2, Informative)

    by sulli ( 195030 )
    Is this the Palm killer? Not if the battery life is still measured in hours, not days or weeks (Palm V series and subsequent models); not if there's still massive overhead from all those Windows apps that get in the way of what you normally use a PDA for; and not if you're forced to listen to Windows Media (barf) instead of MP3, which has been supported on Handspring for about 2 years now.

    • Re:snooze (Score:4, Informative)

      by szcx ( 81006 ) on Thursday October 04, 2001 @01:31PM (#2388937)
      and not if you're forced to listen to Windows Media (barf) instead of MP3
      Windows Media Player on the Pocket PC plays MP3's just fine. Unlike Handspring, Pocket PC users have a choice when it comes to supported media formats.

      • Re:Media on Pocket PC (Score:3, Interesting)

        by _xeno_ ( 155264 )
        You can also watch DivX movies on your Pocket PC. Not really sure why anyone would want to, but I've downloaded the player to my iPaq and it definately works and has an almost-acceptable framerate - works best with movies where little changes.

        If you have a Pocket PC, check it out [projectmayo.com]. It's kinda useless, but it's still fun...

        • One thing I notice on the boards is people using it not to watch movies as such, but TV shows. They're quite well suited to a small form factor.

          Beats an MP3 capacity, doesn't it!

    • Re:snooze (Score:2, Interesting)

      by wiremind ( 183772 )
      That should be fixed in the next year or 2, recall the article yesterday about motorola and a few other manufacturers developing methane based electrochemical generators. they would be sabout the size of palm V, and they would power the average cell phone or pda for about 1 month. They manufacturers of these technologys said that this stuff would be in mass production within 2 to 4 years. another technology that will make that a non issue is that device which draws power from your own body heat. so with those 2 technologys and the power that lithium batteries are holding, power will not be an issue in 2 years.
      Another option is that Curusoe chip, which changes its clock speed on the fly to conserve battery life.

      Basicly, Battery power in the next year may be an issue but 2 years from now it wont even be something we are thinking about...

      ~Wire -- no sig...
    • The battery life of PalmOS based PDAs is also measured in hours.

      Since you turn on / turn off a PDA so often and usually keep it in "sleep" mode most of the time -- a Palm PDA is never actually "off", it just "sleeps" to keep its data in RAm -- these hours of actual battery time are perceived as days and weeks by the user.

      If you run a really addictive game on a Palm PDA, you'll realize how fast you can drain the batteries there, too.

      But that's exactly the problem of the next generation of PDAs. MP3 players, pocket games or small video application require you to have the machine running for a pretty long time, unlike the "old school" Palm PDA that you take out of your pocket, turn on, read or write some data, put it back to sleep and back in your pocket.

      So in a way, the Palm's limited uses turns out to be one of its biggest advantages in preserving battery power.

  • Palm-killer? That's a good one (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    At $499 to $650, I don't see these killing the Palm anytime soon.

    However, it is funny to see the price continue to rise. I remember everyone saying that one reason the Newton died was the price.
    A whopping $1000. Microsoft again attempts to imitate Apple? Shock.

  • battery life? (Score:4, Informative)

    by cruelworld ( 21187 ) on Thursday October 04, 2001 @01:28PM (#2388919)
    10 hours? Do people really put up with 10 hours of operating battery life? My palm pilot used to last over a month of regular use (before it met an unfortunate end with Mr. Pavement.)

    I've even read one review where the guy was gushing about the GPS receiver with the colour screen and how he could use it to on hikes and trial rides. With 10 hours?

    Are none of the new handheld companies doing anything about this? Do consumers not care?
    • You could use these to recharge PocketPC's too!!

      http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/10/03/1350 20 2&mode=thread

    • Well, I have a B&W iPaq that I just love. Batteries last a long time, and they only drain if I play mp3s on them.

      I used to have the Vx, but I wanted the multimedia capabilities of the iPaq. I like that the new ones use SD cards built in.

    • Re:battery life? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by AzrealAO ( 520019 ) on Thursday October 04, 2001 @01:34PM (#2388950)
      You're not seriously suggesting that your Palm Pilot operated for a month straight? Of course not, you said average use. Figure out how many hours of continuous use that "month of average use" actually turns out to be. I would be incredibly suprised if it turned out to be much more than about 15 hours of actual use. Every time you put that PocketPC in it's cradle, it recharges the internal battery. I have yet to run my iPaq right down to nothing and I've had it over a year.
      • so when was the last time you left your cradle out of an otherwise heavy suitcase...
        • I always take my AC Adapter with me. It's quite small, weighs less than the PDA itself. Or I take my PC Card Sleeve with me, which effectivelly doubles my battery life.
          • I've got to agree with the Palm people on this point. I have an Ipaq and a PC Card Sleeve, (which helps the battery a lot, unless you're actually using a PC-card...) I would never take the thing out for more than a day (ie, morning to evening) without taking the charger. A Palm does last longer, and that's just fact. It's a consequence of the Palm having a slower chip and a duller screen.

            I also had a lot of problems with the iPaq crashing. Maybe it was the network drivers, maybe I was running too many complex WinCE applications. Either way, I got sick of losing all of my files and configurations every time this happened. The "non-volatile" section of memory needs to be better isolated from the rest of the system, so it doesn't go down whenever you do a hard reset. And ActiveSync needs to do automatic file-system backups (at least as an option) every time you put the PDA in its cradle. This is something I always liked about the Palm-- even if it lost its memory, a quick Hotsync always solved the problem.

    • Actually.. Its funny, but I just don't. I have an iPaq, and I have to say that I absolutely love it. It does a *lot* more than my old Palm IIIx ever did, including the mp3 capabilities(caveat: I had to add a 128 MB flash card here. They're getting very cheap, though) and the better web snipping than Palm(Avantgo. Shudder.)

      As for power, I'm a developer. I have my docking station on the desk charging the iPaq all day long. I also have a car power adapter in my car for charging when listening to mp3s.

      As for price, with the addition of the target keyboard(another $100, yes), this thing is all the laptop I really *want* at about half the size.

      In short I'm happy. Other people's mileage may vary.

      VirtualAdept

    • Re:battery life? (Score:2, Insightful)

      by zombie-m ( 80025 )
      Actually, the average runtime on my Visor is 10 hours, 11 minutes. That is actual runtime. The average time between battery changes is 31 days, 1 hour, 58 minutes. My highest actual runtime (at least out of the last 10 battery changes is 1 day, 2 hours, 9 minutes). Just because you get "over a month of regular use" doesn't mean you are getting significantly more actual runtime. That said, I wouldn't buy a PocketPC based device. The iPaqs & similar machines sure look sweet, but if I want to play MP3s, I'll buy a dedicated player. For PDA functions, my Visor is serving me quite well, thank you.

      BTW, the numbers I mentioned above come from a program called Runtime. I currently have v1.5.1, but here [palmgear.com] is a newer version on PalmGear.

  • Palm Killer (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I find it interesting that even with all the hype that Microsoft has generated the question still remains "Is this the palm killer?" This implies that the PalmOS is the yard stick by which all other handeld OSes are measured.

    I hope Palm doesn't give into the hype and drastically changes the OS to address PocketPC. If they do then they will in a sense have become the Palm Killer that Microsoft is striving to be.

  • Palm Killer (Score:3, Informative)

    by FatRatBastard ( 7583 ) on Thursday October 04, 2001 @01:29PM (#2388927) Homepage
    So, is this the mighty Palm-killer?

    Not according to IDC [cnet.com] they're not. (Of course, how much weight you give the likes of IDC, Gartner, et al will temper this report).

    I think the downturn doesn't bode well for PocketPC (nor Palm, frankly). PocketPCs seem to be geared towards business users (WAY too expensive for the average folk) and I wonder how willing business are going to be to plunk down a lot of money to take full advantage of what the PocketPC PDAs can do.

    Palm are getting it in the shorts due to economy and saturation, MS will get it in the shorts due to the economy and the dubious usefulness of PocketPC devices beyond niche applications.

  • Grey screen of death? (Score:4, Funny)

    by hoggoth ( 414195 ) on Thursday October 04, 2001 @01:32PM (#2388942) Journal
    From the manual: "If you see a blank grey screen, you must scribble Control-Alt-Delete with your stylus on the touch screen to reboot"

    • Actually, to address this very issues I recently purchased an iPaq Stowaway Keyboard [mobileplanet.com]. Now, I am comforted by the fact that I can CTR-ALT-DEL any time I want!

      Seriously though, the stowaway keyboard is fantastic if you're like me and can't write (using the stylus) anything more than a few words without getting frustrated. The one down side is that airport security agents aren't completely convinced that the keyboard isn't some high-tech weapon.
  • I thought it was interesting to Symbol in there. I have used some of their bar scanning equipment when I used to work retail. Very handy stuff. They are used to doing wireless stuff on lans inside of stores/warehouses, etc.

    This could be real handy for a small business owner to use that scanning capability. Shoot, you could build a cash register that you carry around in your hand. Lot's of possibilities there.
  • My favorite off of the hardware page [microsoft.com] is the Symbol PPT 2800, which has some impressive stats but also looks like a Star Trek prop as well..

    On the other hand, the Casio E-200 seems to have expandability locked down with a Type II slot, a PC card slot and a memory slot.

    For cool, the "O2 xpda" listed on the Pocket PC Thoughts [pocketpcthoughts.com] homepage takes the prize. Jason Dunn says "I'm at a total loss here...who knows what this device is? Is this the BT device I've heard rumblings about?" I have a thought. I'd bet that this is related to MIT's Oxygen Project, profiled in this article from Scientific American [sciam.com].

  • Palm is just not exciting anymore (Score:3, Flamebait)

    by reaper20 ( 23396 ) on Thursday October 04, 2001 @01:39PM (#2388982) Homepage
    Unfortunately, Palms do their jobs too well. They just work. I have no need to upgrade my HS Visor Deluxe anytime soon. It's a PDA that synchs between all my boxen, keeps my calendar, and keeps notes for me.

    Someone mentioned that PocketPCs are pushing 200-300mhz ... because they NEED to to do all that crap that they're pushing. Only an MS designed POCKET ORGANIZER would need 200mhz and 64MB of RAM.

    Right now, Palm is the Unix of PDAs, works, doesn't look sexy, just works. If I want an MP3 player, I'll buy one, I don't need a PDA/phone/mp3 player/tricorder/geiger counter with battery life measured in hours.

    On the other hand, that doesn't give Palm/Handspring an excuse to sit around and not innovate ... I mean come on, anyone else think that since the M* series that Palm has lost it?
    • Have you ever used a PocketPC? My first WinCE device (years ago) had a processor about the speed of the 33Mhz Dragonball VZ and 2M of RAM. It ran circles around my Palm. If all you are going to do is use the PDA as a PIM then, no you don't need that much processor or RAM.

      However, useing a PDA based on a more advanced OS and a faster processor raises your expectations. I use my iPAQ as an MP3 player, a video player (I capture the morning news [and cartoons] and watch them on my commute), wireless intenet device, and a PIM. So yeah I wan't a little more power and memory.

    • How odd...

      I remember when Unix used to be sexy.

      I guess as you get older, start gaining weight, the body parts start sagging, your not as flexible and quick to move... you lose your sex appeal. :)

    • Unfortunately, Palms do their jobs too well. They just work. I have no need to upgrade my HS Visor Deluxe anytime soon. It's a PDA that synchs between all my boxen, keeps my calendar, and keeps notes for me.

      While there is a lot of truth in this - PDAs are not just small general-purpose desktop computers - I find I still need to replace mine every 12 months or so. Why? Because they break. Palms are somewhat rugged, but I carry mine on my belt, it gets exposed to the rough-and-tumble of my daily commute and the screens get scratched up over time. Not to mention taking it to my local bar.

      I think there will be a reasonable turnover of PDAs because of this, even if they meet all your functional goals.

      • The best reason for PDA turnover! However, there are more than enough people who play with their Palm for a few weeks then give up for eBay and your local pawnbroker to have a secondhand replacement that will work fine until you drop it. If I kill my TRGpro, I'll probably pickup a secondhand Palm IIIc -- because of all the III-style accessories I have.
    • Only an MS designed POCKET ORGANIZER would need 200mhz and 64MB of RAM.

      And this is where the mistake lies. The Palm and PocketPC do not play in the same space. One is a pocket organizer, the other is a pocket computer. Sure, there's a tiny itty bit of overlap, but not much.

      My year and a half old Windows CE palm top has a 1 GB hard drive, 64k color screen, 125 mHz RISC processor, 32MB of RAM, 16 bit stereo sound and 4 Mb IrDA.

      My web and mail server is a 486DX/33.

    • My Palm is collecting dust. Mainly because the handwriting recognition is not fast enough. If I decide to go back to school, I'm either going for a small transmeta laptop or a pocket PC.
      • Well, my iPAQ is gathering dust too. Mainly because it's a useless toy, and if a meeting or something isnt important enough for me to remember in da ole' head, it aint worth carrying around an easily breakable piece of electronics for.

        Then again, I had both a mobile and a PDA in the early 90's and decided they werent an improvement to life.
    • I think essentially Palm PDA's have not much expanded beyond its glorified DayTimer replacement status.

      The color display of the latest Palm and Handspring devices don't compare well against Pocket PC devices, sad to say.
    • Ahem, well, the sexiest PDA anyone makes is the M500/505, so...

  • Yes and no... (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    No, it's not a Palm-killer because that isn't a valid comparison. That's like comparing a Celeron 800 laptop to a TI calculator. They are meant to serve different purposes.

    Microsoft's initial entries into the handheld market were pitiful because (a) they tried to jam Windows into something that it wouldn't work too well on, and (b) they were trying to create a PDA and not much more.

    Now though, they have (a) redesigned the OS to better accomodate the hardware it's running on, and (b) they are creating something that is much more like a laptop than a PDA.

    It's a PocketPC, i.e., a PC that fits in your pocket. That's not a PDA, so the comparison is not fair to begin with. Two different markets at this point. If all you need is a rolodex and calendar in your pocket, Palm is a fine choice (of course it can do more, I'm oversimplifying here). But if you want all the multimedia, connectivity and software options of a laptop (most of them anyway) without the bulk, a PocketPC is a perfect choice.

    The Yes part of that (yes, it is a Palm-killer, since all the above supports the no portion of my subject?). That's simple: when people see what these things can do (nothing like playing with one at Best Buys!) then they will be hard-pressed to justify a Palm in any case. Yes, the price is quite a difference (sort of... isn't the top-of-the-line Palm about $400 at this point?), but you get SO much more for the money.

    Bottom line: you have to determine what your needs are. You want something close to a laptop in capability but smaller? PocketPC can't be beat. You want a tidy place to keep your personal information and don't have a ton of money to spend? Palm will make you quite happy.

    (Oh, and since most of the newer PocketPC's are flashable, you Linux zealots should be thrilled to death. I mean, what in the *BLUE HELL* would make you want to put Linux on an iPaq anyway?? But that's not the point. If you WANT to, you can. I'd bet you can do it with a Palm too, but would you rather put Linux on a 486-33 or a Pentium 200? I'd go with the later!)
  • /.ers embracing a PocketPC platform? What's this world coming to?!?

  • Pocket PC to replace laptops? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by rmayes100 ( 521535 ) on Thursday October 04, 2001 @01:42PM (#2388998) Homepage

    The problem with palm is most users find they have to haul a laptop around (or find a workstation) in addition to their palm in order to satisfy all their needs. With Pocket PC we're starting to hear people say "With this thing I don't need my laptop anymore", and that's how many people can justify spending >$500 on a pda and why palm continues to loose market share to Pocket PC.

    • Why even use a PDA? You can get a great laptop for $1,000 that has all of the features you need. It's powerful enough to work as a "desktop", and they're small enough to carry around easily. $500-$700 on a PDA or $1000 on a full-featured computer? I'll take the laptop, thanks.
    • I have one of the older Aero2130 models upgraded to a PocketPC OS, so it's a bit harder for me.

      But if I had one of the new iPaq's I would buy one of the portable keyboards, and with that it would be quite easy to read and respond to email and such on a plane trip. Certainly much less hassle than carrying a laptop to accomplish the same thing.
    • Yeah, sure. "Replace my laptop" I can't wait to see what kind of web sites I can design during a cross-country flight on a PocketPC using a PocketPC version of Dreamweaver and Photoshop.

      Gimme a break!
    • At one place I worked at there was one person who had purchased a WinCE PDA and despite the fact that when I borrowed it I was able to plug-in my Pretec CF modem, dial into the company network and query our database, he still only played with it for a few weeks before letting it rot in a drawer.

      Whereas the three Palm owners used their Palms every day -- syncing off their desktops. Primarily they were used to make their PC diary portable. That was plenty to justify the cost of a Palm.

  • It is the Palm killer. Here's why: (Score:5, Interesting)

    by corky6921 ( 240602 ) on Thursday October 04, 2001 @01:47PM (#2389014) Homepage
    I used to work at a very Linux-oriented company, with a guy who absolutely hated Windows. He ran Linux on everything, and had a Palm.

    One day he got an iPaQ to replace his Palm Pilot. "Oh, are you going to run Linux on it?" I asked him. "No," he said, "I am running Windows CE."

    When I asked him why, he said it was simply easier to develop software for Windows CE handhelds. Palm forces you to buy a developer kit, but you can use standard Microsoft tools to develop for Windows CE. Windows CE 3.0 even has the source code [microsoft.com] available.

    Palm has a large legacy base, but they've missed the boat both with development tools and with color screens and MP3 playback. Why should I buy a Palm when I can buy a handheld PC that I can use as an MP3 player, voice recorder, and have wireless Internet access in full color to boot?

    Dataquest thinks so too. [siliconvalley.com]

    • Palm forces you to buy a developer kit, but you can use standard Microsoft tools to develop for Windows CE


      You also have to buy those "standard Microsoft tools", n'est-ce pas?

    • Why should I buy a Palm when I can buy a handheld PC that I can use as an MP3 player, voice recorder, and have wireless Internet access in full color to boot?

      Your sentence is erroneous. I own a Handspring Visor that does all that you mention, and more.
    • Palm forces you to buy a developer kit

      There is a free developer kit based on the GNU toolkit chain. If you're on Debian: "apt-get install prc-tools" and you're ready to write your first application.

      The prc-tools are also available for Windows.

      You are not forced to buy Palm's developer kit. Actually, Palm is very supportive of third party developers and has been handing out all the information needed to them.

      but you can use standard Microsoft tools to develop for Windows CE

      Last time I heard, the Microsoft Developer Tools weren't free, either. In fact, Visual Studio is pretty expensive (while I admit that it's worth the price). I don't know if there is a free trimmed-down version for WinCE development, but still:

      What the heck are you talking about?
    • I happen to develop PalmOS software, amongst other things. Palm simply does not force you to buy anything, you have to agree not to rip them off to download the SDK, but this takes all of 5 seconds. Don't believe me, go to http://www.palmos.com/dev/tech/tools/sdk40.html

      While it is true that I use Metroworks Codewarrior for Palm, which is somewhat costly, I could have instead choosen the Lite version (free), GNU's PRC-Tools, or any number of other FREE compilers and tools. Furthermore, I would assert that most developers that really matter (as in those that develop software that is useful or widely used) are not even going to be turned off by the pricetag on Metroworks. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you need to already own VC++ or something to use MS' PocketPC SDK? They don't have a free alternative, right?

      While I have not yet developed Windows CE applications, I must say that most of Palm's documentation is simply excellent, which is a stark contrast to my other development experiences with MS. In short, I have few complaints about Palm.

      The question is, why buy more than I need when it costs significantly more, shorterns my battery significantly, and is generally bulkier and more fragile. Also, I can buy color if I need it (You get what you pay for). You can get wireless internet for Palm too. Why in God's name would you want mp3 on your PDA? It's not enough to listen to for any prolonged period and you can't use it for for exercise... A dedicated mp3 player is a much more appropriate solution.

      You say Palm missed the boat. I say Palm has already filled the boat--several of them. Their current problem owes largely to the fact that people they've already filled such a large part of the market and most people don't NEED fancy new PDAs every year, be it Windows or Palm. These PocketPCs haven't proven themselves to be anything more than a NICHE market for a handful of techies and trend setters.

      The long and short of it is that I would not at all be suprised to see the PocketPC's prove to be a money loosing operation, while Palm turns around nicely [especially since PocketPC's level of technology will be more appropriate later on], at least once the economy picks up.
    • Palm makes portions of the source code available to developers as well. I have a large part of the OS 3.5 source sitting on my hard disk right now, big deal. Unlike MS, however, Palm doesn't claim that they're doing anything like "shared source" or that it's really open source with a new name. They're just being nice by their developers.

      Palm does not force you to buy a developers kit. The SDK is a free download and works with gcc. In fact, some of the most impressive Palm software is written with gcc on Linux, at no cost. Palm's "official" development environment is CodeWarrior, which is a commerical product. Microsoft's "official" (read: only) development environment is Visual Studio, which is a commercial product. I've developed for the Palm, and it is reasonably straightforward if you are comfortable with C. If not, there are C++ SDKs from third parties, Visual Basic add-ons, and several dozen other languages and environments.

      The Sony CLIE PEG-N760c is a PalmOS device with a 320x320 color screen (higher resolution than PocketPC) with built-in mp3 and ATRAC playback.

      So the Palm platform is not behind on any of the items you listed. If your friend doesn't know that, you may want to tell him.

    • Why would I drain the battery on my PDA just to play music, when I can use a dedicated hardware device that can last for 12 hours on a AA, or simply borrow a little power from a cell phone battery?

      And I'll concern myself with a full-colour mobile browsing experience when I can get more than 6 minutes for a buck.

      Sure, the hardware is nice, but the price is too high. It's why the Gameboy beat the Lynx and Game Gear. Small, simple, cheap and a long battery life -- that's what's important.

  • killer $600 organizers (Score:3, Interesting)

    by hatless ( 8275 ) on Thursday October 04, 2001 @01:57PM (#2389068)
    They're nice, much as the wave of Pocket PCs they're replacing were. But they still cost $600. $600 is what a lot of companies pay for their desktop systems these days. They have their place, and they'll sell all right.. but nobody has yet come out with a usable $150-$300 Pocket PC, and that's what most Palms sell for, even color ones now.

    Palms do a lot less. They store less. They can't play MP3s without extra hardware, can't run a WinFrame client decently, and so on. They're also cheap enough to be an impulse purchase or a cheap corporate gift to employees. Some companies give senior managers Pocket PCs. But other companies give low-end Palms to pretty much anyone on a yearly salary.

    The $450 high-end Palms don't compete well on features with the fancy Pocket PCs, though they are markedly simpler and quicker to use for the core organizer functions. But Palm's bread and butter nowadays is the low-to-midrange, as it is for Handspring too. And the Pocket PC devices just don't compete there at all.

    Palm does need to boost its specs and give the OS a facelift soon, and they seem to be working on that with their announced move to RISC processors and the Be acquisition. But you can bet they'll stick to $200 mass-market PDAs and leave the $600 devices to whoever wants them. And all the talk about Compaq's iPaq beating Palm in sales numbers is based on dollars--on a low-margin, high-cost product. And with the Palm III/m100 series making up the bulk of Palm sales during that period, that still meant Palm was beating them by at least 3:1 in unit sales.

  • Solar Power (Score:4, Interesting)

    by WallyCanuck ( 410992 ) on Thursday October 04, 2001 @02:07PM (#2389105)
    The first PDA powered by solar power wins. It might have a battery for backlighting during the night but as soon as you don't have to worry about batteries i want one. In this regard Palm/Handspring have a shot since they don't require much power as it is.

    IMHO...

  • ...it's the PalmOS emulator for the PPC [kodeness.com]. Of course, you still need to buy the $600 PPC to use it, but people who want to continue using their Palm apps and want bells and whistles PPC provides will be able to stick with just one device rather than juggling a Palm and a PPC.

    The first public beta should be out this month.

  • I have used a programable TI86 since Highschool. I have made a calander, and address book, I can get games, I can do complex graphs and print them, I can do cosmological calculations as well as quantum calculations, it is extensable through its programable interface and you can give it a menu/button/desktop like interface. hell, the TI86 is also only $110.

    it seems that Texas Instruments has been at the for front of all this, they just didn't market it righy
    • You have a scientific calculator that can also do some PDA stuff. The Palm is a PDA that could also run a scientific calculator software. I've seen the TI once. It's a great calculator, but not a good PDA. I own the Palm. It's a great PDA, but not a good calculator - the built-in software lacks and the third party software isn't worth the price for me.

      It's a question of what you need. You obviously need scientific stuff more than the average user. Despite my interest in astronomy, I don't do quantum calculations and cosmological stuff on a daily basis.

      What I do on a daily basis is using the calendar, the address book and (I admit it) the games and the online software. And a PDA does have an excellent user interface for each of these applications.

      The Palm has its uses.
      • yeah but the UI is programable in the TI. I think if TI came out with some PDA software and put it on the TI calcuators it would be grate for all who can't make thier own inteface.


      • and the third party software isn't worth the price for me.

        I use EasyCalc [sourceforge.net]. It's a wonderful, souped-up, graphic Palm calculator, released under the GNU Public License... :-)
        • Normal, Scientific and Engineering floating point mode
        • All functions you would find on normal scientific calculator
        • Unlimited number of variables and functions
        • Graph support
        • GuessIt function - it tries to find out, what the result means, like "pi/2", "e^(3/4)" and "47/23".
        • Integer operations (unsigned 32bit), conversions between Bin/Oct/Oct/Hex
        • Function solving through fzero' with three parameters - min,max and function, it solves the function (e.g. fzero(0:10:f()), where f()="x^2" will return '2'.). It is possible to write fzero(0:2:"(x-1)(x+1)") too.
        • Up to 15 decimal points
        • Scrollable results field
        • Complex numbers, including a basic guessit for complexes
        • Fast menu for selecting variables and functions
        • Results history
        • Normal/Polar/parameter graphs
        • Tracing of functions in all modes
        • Table mode for functions
        • Installable version of EasyCalc with no graphs, you'll save about 20K of space, installable version with/without special functions
        • Added/improved many functions regarding some hard mathematics.
        • Added popup-menu for built-in functions
        • Export to memopad. If you want import from memopad, write me, I'm not sure if it is a useful feature and I'll not add it until somone writes.
        • Function/variable name can have letters 'G-Z' and numbers as part of their name
  • Microsoft has failed to make a very good entrence into the PDA market.
    This gave Palm enough time to control the market.

    If Microsoft is to capture the PDA market they will have to do one thing they have failed to do for years.
    Produce a quality product.

    Let me make myself clearer..
    A product with the features the users want.

    WinCE systems are already nice high end systems.
    Thats exactly what PDAs should NOT be.

    Palm has made some sereous mistakes and they could lose marketshare to somebody...
    But to suggest that somebody might be Microsoft just makes me want to laugh out loud...
  • Who is on top now or is the near future is somewhat irrelevant. Wireless connection and access is the key to the success of these devices. My IIIx with TRG memory upgrade has served me well and will continue to serve me well. But when an affordable PDA/Cell combination, with 320x240 screen, and capability of running text or graphic connection to my current ISP account without an additional monthly fee for connection, then I will upgrade. I think a lot of people are waiting for this combination, but all the players are fighting for market share ahead of customer satisfaction. Is that too much to ask? eigerface
  • PDABuzz comparison [pdabuzz.com]

    So far nobody has gushed over the fact that the E-200 can act as USB host or client. Sure, they can all plug in to a USB port to synchronise, but up till now the only way you could connect peripherals was via serial port, or use one of precious few Compact Flash devices.

    Imagine with proper USB connectivity, plug it into a USB hub and use a dozen things.

    USB scanners, webcams, printers, USB-to-Ethernet, USB whatevers.

    If only the release date was known....

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