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Handhelds Hardware

Pocket PC 2002: Sweaty Palms? 159

Posted by timothy from the bells-whistles-gimcracks dept.
joestump98 writes: "It appears Microsoft is launching the latest version of their Pocket PC. Here's the announcement from Microsoft about it." Perhaps Palm will fire back with something involving BeOS?
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Pocket PC 2002: Sweaty Palms? More

Pocket PC 2002: Sweaty Palms?

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  • Too Late (Score:1, Funny)

    by litewoheat ( 179018 )
    Its too late for Palm. They stagnated. Microsoft caught up. Where have I heard this before...? Wasn't some Cupertino fruit company involved? Hmmmmmm.

    • Your anaology doens't work. Microsoft doesn't catch up when it wins, it simply brings a crappy product to the market that the majority of the people buy.

      Microsoft made its greatest in-roads in the desktop market with Windows 3.1 - are you going to argue with me that Windows 3.1 was anywhere near the Mac? I hope not, because everyone can agree that 3.1 was the worst abomination of programming ever.

      Micrsoft doesn't make superior products - it makes products for the uniformed masses. Btw, the jury is still out on the PDA market - another industry segment created by that Cupertino fruit company...

      • Re:Too Late (Score:2, Insightful)

        by PaleGreen ( 259898 )
        Windows 3.1 made great inroads thanks to the simultaneous availability of Office for Windows. Word and Excel quickly made mincemeat of the flat-footed WordPerfect and 1-2-3, and the rest is history.

        Having "Pocket" Office apps running on PocketPC will continue the trend: a "good enough" OS combined with the dominant Office apps equals eventual market domination.

  • BeOS. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by groebke ( 313135 ) on Thursday September 06, 2001 @05:57PM (#2261001)
    Why should Palm respond to a MS palm with an implementation using an OS unproven on its platform. Extolling the fashionable alternatives just to say it point to a clear lack on thoughtfullness.

    Thanks,

    Gerald Roebke.

    • Re:BeOS. (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Drakonian ( 518722 )
      They should begin to implement it because they are starting to lose major ground to Pocket PCs. The iPaq is the beating palm in sales [techtv.com]. (Not un units... yet.)

      The big advantage of Pocket PCs over Palms offerings is multimedia, an area where Be excelled. Palm will get left behind if they don't come up with something, and fast.

      • Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)

        by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Thursday September 06, 2001 @09:52PM (#2261864)
        Comment removed based on user account deletion

        • PocketPC is no more integrated with Windows than Palm is. There are programs for Palm that let you view Word, Excel, and even PowerPoint documents, and HotSync has been cleanly integrated from day one.



          What's not integrated is the marketing message, which of course is one of Microsoft's core competencies. What is integrated is an 80% share of the market, and a vast catalog of software developed for the needs of a handheld device.

          • But it is perfectly integrated with windows. The PDA talks to the app directly, without needing some third-party software, so it works much better. Your Palm doesn't talk to outlook, it talks to some guy's software which then talks to outlook. That's not integrated, that's emulated.

            • I would still disagree. Microsoft had to write some software to have WindowsCE machines talk to Outlook. The fact that they call that piece of software part of Outlook and include it doesn't make it anything fundamentally different than that which is done with a Palm device. The primary difference is in the bundling and the marketing, not the technical capabilities.

        • I dunno, maybe I would edit video and audio on a handheld if I could.

          How about using handhelds to mixdown with in a club instead of taking along boxes of vinyl ( yea I know vinyl is the best . not unheard pf. Add full dsp for effects, ditch the heavy equipment.

          Perhaps we should look further than what can be done now, and look at what we could be doing.

          How about "pennyvision" re Lost in Space
    • Last Fall in COMDEX Hell(?), there was a "Battle of the Handhelds" media event where a cadre of 3COM/Palm geeks did an "debate" style presentation against a M$ cadre...they took turns, laid out strengths/weaknesses, etc...

      1. the room (a large sideroom, 300+) was FULL to SRO

      2. Phil Holden led the M$ Team, I don't remember who led the Palm Team, both teams were well prepared

      the Palm folk abandoned the debate style forum and went into a "we're the OG and we have the market share, and 3rd party apps" Marketing Speel

      The M$ folk were clearly taken aback at this, and had to develop an impromptu "market speel" of their own, you wouldn't think that would be that hard for them ;), it wasn't theirs was; newer technology, better color, multimedia, and real multi tasking and multi media, all built it

      at the end of the hour and a half(?), the moderator asked for a show of hands and asked the audience a number of raised your hands questions (these questions are NOT verbatim, but are pretty damn close, 90%+).

      among the ones i clearly remember are:

      Who is currently using a handheld? Over 90% of the audience raised their hands affirmatively

      Who is using a PalmOS handheld? Around 80+% of the audience raised their hands again.

      Who thinks PalmOS is currently superior to wince? Around 90% of the audience agreed that PalmOS is currently superior.

      Who thinks that their next handheld will be a PalmOS machine? HERE it gets interesting, only around 50% of the audience raised their hands.

      The moderator, taken aback, thought about it and then asked; Who would consider buying a wince machine when they buy their next handheld? Around 50% of the audience raised their hands.

      The moderator then asked who thinks that PalmOS has gone as far can with its current architecture?

      AROUND 70%+ OF THE AUDIENCE RAISED THEIR HANDS AFFIRMATIVELY

      pretty much everybody in the room was surprised at how many people thought PalmOS needed an overhaul..that was last November!

      Palm had better very quickly take the BeOS technology and do something about getting multi-threading, larger memory model, multi-media (read MP3,WMA) 16-24 bit color implemented, TCP/IP support and ALL AT THE KERNEL LEVEL, not as OS shimware or else you can chalk up another dead platform

      at the M$ Embedded Developers Conference in Feb this year, M$ laid out some of their platform tools and improvements to CE...they were pretty damned impressive (esp considering their early efforts..i own a very low # Compaq Companion CE v1....i still flinch when i think about using Pocket Outlook or Pocket Explorer at 14.4, my IIIXE blows it away)

      wince sales are ***DOUBLING*** every month....you figure it out...the ipaq was backordered for months
      • Who thinks that their next handheld will be a PalmOS machine? HERE it gets interesting, only around 50% of the audience raised their hands.

        I think you may be confusing real issues, like current market share, with future, possible issues, like, "I think I'll buy another Palm device." No one knows what the future holds. I hate to use such a trite saying, but it's true. I may buy a Palm for my next PDA, or I may buy a Pocket PC. I may be busy at work tomorrow, or I may not.

        The moderator, taken aback, thought about it and then asked; Who would consider buying a wince machine when they buy their next handheld? Around 50% of the audience raised their hands.

        People will consider buying something else because no one in their right mind would blindly buy the "next" product in their favorite brand line. Even Mac zealots wait to see what people say about a new design before blindly buying them. I would consider myself remiss if I didn't research the current state of handhelds--i.e., consider--before buying another Palm.

        If you look at MS's marketing strategy over the last ten years it has been to overpromise and underdeliver. Who wouldn't consider a Pocket PC device when you listen to the promises that they tout. Streaming wireless video! MP3 player! Cell phone/PDA combo! Sounds great, doesn't it? It's supposed to.

        The moderator then asked who thinks that PalmOS has gone as far can with its current architecture? AROUND 70%+ OF THE AUDIENCE RAISED THEIR HANDS AFFIRMATIVELY.

        Keep in mind that this is an audience of C|Net, ZDNet, tech-reading people, and the Palm devices have always been bashed in the press for not having features that stack up to Pocket PC's. But the Palm devices continue to grab and hold market share. And this was before Palm's acquisition of Be, and before Palm's stated intention to produce a StrongARM device, and before (IIRC) Palm's release of the m500/m505.

        Why? Let me give you a few reasons that I think are the most relevant.

        • Price
          Most Palm devices sell from between $129 - $449. Most CE devices sell from between $399 - $650. (The new Jornada will retail for $599 vs. $449 for a m505.) And consumers have shown time and time again that they will buy the cheaper product--airline tickets, PC's, and yes, handhelds.
        • Form Factor
          I don't think MS gets it: I'm sure they've been told time and time again, but it doesn't matter how many features you cram into a device, if you can't get it small enough to fit in (not on) the palm of your hand and/or fit in a pocket, you've already got a strike against you.

          If you want to make a great handheld, keep it light (less than 6oz), keep it narrow (less than 4") and keep it thin (less than 1", and then closer to paper thin the better). PDA's that are 1.5" and 2" thick are the bricks of the industry. Look at all sci fi shows and movies. You don't see them lugging around Clancy-novel-thick computers. Thin devices are useful devices.

        • "Zen of Palm"
          Everyone talks about Palm's simplicity, but I'm not sure that everyone knows what it really means. Palm's mindset is to give the users what features Palm decides they will need. If only 10 - 20% of users will use a function, they strip it out. Most software developers would cry foul. (Why not give users the options they want!) That thought process might work well on desktops, but doesn't work well on handhelds. On a handheld, people need information quickly. The more taps away their information is from them the less likely it is that they will find it, and hence, use the device.

          Palm devices work simply and efficiently. And for the option-crazy, Palm relies on its 3rd-party developers to create the heavy-duty apps. This results in a streamlined OS that really does what it was intended to do. And it doesn't throw in cool stuff, like an MP3 player, just for the sake of being cool. (How many Pocket PC owners really use it?)

        In case you're wondering, I'm not just shooting off the hip here. I've been a Palm developer since '99, and have watched the two sides pretty closely. I'm not blind to the flaws of Palm, and I do think that Pocket PC devices are getting better, but until the prices come down and the form factor improves, I don't see them beating Palm.
        • palm really sucks, they dare to charge a $200 premium for palms with only 8meg ram compared to the lower 2meg models.

          Thats just plain evil when chips cost $8
        • Thanks! for the GREAT RESPONSE! It's posts like yours that make putting up with the flamers and trolls possible, like the ironically-deprived(entendre*3), humourless, M$ Troll above and below us. Though i agree with most of your analysis, let me respond to a several things you said. it'a little long, but you raised numerous good points.....first the original question i answered was;

          "Why should Palm respond to a MS palm with an implementation using an OS unproven on its platform. Extolling the fashionable alternatives just to say it point to a clear lack on thoughtfullness. "

          I responded with a personal anecdote centered on a large group of media and analysts. I choose this because the people in that room were; early adopters, important recommenders and media journalists. All of whom have an important function in the success or failure of any product. Your point that;

          "Keep in mind that this is an audience of C|Net, ZDNet, tech-reading people, and the Palm devices have always been bashed in the press for not having features that stack up to Pocket PC's."

          is true. It's also the reason i chose to bring this anecdote up. These people are important to the success or failure of Palm, not determinative, but important.

          "But the Palm devices continue to grab and hold market share. And this was before Palm's acquisition of Be, and before Palm's stated intention to produce a StrongARM device, and before (IIRC) Palm's release of the m500/m505."

          Palm's market share is 10X that of the wince devices, BUT, wince sales are doubling every month, IDG Gartner/InfoWorld have confirmed that. PalmCo is losing major share to Handspring. And price cuts have already occurred on the new m5XX series, that's NOT a GOOD sign.

          Palm will have to deal with the fact that CE has come a very long way since v1. Look at very recent CE developments.......

          1. M$ has lowered the license cost of CE quite substantially. AND is cutting some ***nice*** terms on the side

          2, M$ is making very genuine and sincere efforts to reach handheld developers and provide lots of developer tools, help and assistance. M$ also has some of their very best people working on the handheld/embedded space, smart, hardworking, customer saavy folk like Bill Vegthe. People CAN really make the difference in a tech sector

          3. M$ has used a subset of Win32 in the development of CE that is known by and appeals to the largest base of app developers in the world.

          4. M$ is putting "Big Heat" into their ISV channel to get CE projects off the ground. M$ has the best marketing skills of any tech company in the world. Palm is only starting to develop the kind forward marketing that M$ is capable of.

          Now to deal quickly with all three of your bulleted items. Again, they are ALL true, TODAY. What about tomorrow? This sector is very young.

          PRICE: pricing is mostly a function (device for device) of volume, and as Palm goes to the high color screens that most CE machines use, the CE machines price will come down towards the Palm prices as their manufacturing volume rises. the Global 2000 companies that mfg CE machines can really take advantage of economies of scale when they are available. PocketPC Prices WILL drop.

          FORM FACTOR: This was covered quite a bit in the COMDEX presentation. I struggle with it all the time. What is the "right size" for a sub-notebook device. Palm has in its PalmOS 3 and 4 devices, hit pretty close to a perfect blend of size for function. However, if the MARKETPLACE decides that it wants the ability to do color jpegs, mpegs, pngs, gifs, etc with a handheld the "Palm sized" device screen size will be a liability. The jury is out on that one right now. This gives Palm a decided form factor edge, for now. That will be demand driven and could change at any time.

          ZEN OF PALM: There is NO question to this point in handheld development that Palm has gotten it right. However, we're talking about the future. Having owned early Palms and early CE machines, Palm blew away CE for usability, were pocketable and had great battery life. My Color Companion is one of the greatest slayers of batteries i have ever seen, worse than early HP handheld calculators (HP55, great calculator bring lots of batteries). But, as i understand both from COMDEX and from the 2001 M$ Embedded DevCon (GREAT! event,THX!)...

          ...M$ is betting on the evolving needs of handheld users going towards multimedia and other rich(er) data experiences, with something like MP3 being the "next frontier"...how easy is it to get MP3 playing on a Palm and how cheap? to the degree that its doable, its expensive, now you're Palm in in iPaq/Journada territory

          HERE'S WHAT I'M AFRAID IS GOING TO HAPPEN: Palm won't evolve PalmOS fast enough to keep up with falling CE machine prices, and the "value" equation will start to leans towards CE. The industry media, which as you pointed out, is not all that friendly to Palm, will start giving numerous "Editors' Choice", "Top 5" and "Must Buy!" awards to CE machines (they already are to the iPaq (BEST CE MACHINE, have u tried one?) and the momentum will start to swing towards the CE platform, Then, once the Mo' starts to go, M$ will put in a, say a billion dollar broadcast marketing campaign, and that will push the Mo further towards CE.

          Meanwhile, Palm (now cash starved from repeated price cutting) will sit on its current laurels and not introduce kernel level improvements that will allow its internal or 3rd party developers to keep up with the rate of change in handhelds' features and all of a sudden there will be a CE machine with; 24-bit color, built in MP3 player, PCMCIA slot, OS level tcp/ip, BROADBAND/80211.b wireless connectivity, the ablity to play either ported or native Gameboy Advanced games and a price level between $300 and $400 (what a Rio 800 costs, IOW)....that machine COULD appear in the next 12-16 months!!!!

          If that's where the handheld marketplace is going, M$ absolutely believes it is, i tend to agree, is Palm ready for that upcoming market? From what i've seen Palm is giving out a lot of "It's Perfect the way it is!" and "PocketPC features are largely superflous and not within the scope of OUR vision".

          I say Palm has to OUT INNOVATE M$, whether those innovations fall in the scope of the existing "Zen of Palm", or not. As the Bud(ha)said; when you are in zen, the mountain is NOT the mountain..well, Palm's mountain may be NOT the mountain..could be time to move forward fast

          Well, betting against the tide of technological evolution and improvment is a risky thing. I'd rather see Palm take action early against a possible paradigm shift then wait till it hits them in the head. Playing catch up to M$ in your own sector historically is; expensive, complex and usually unsuccessful...you can ask ashton-tate,Oz2, borland, lotus and novell...

          SORRY Fellow /.'s for talking so long...
      • 'wince'? 'M$'? Grow up. You're not winning anyone over to your way of thinking if you're going to stoop to childish name-calling. You're just embarassing yourself.
    • Palm has already given indications that they are moving to a StrongARM platform. And they desparately need to do that, since their current 68k-based system has many problem and limitations when you try to go beyond simple calendaring and an address list.

      Since PalmOS itself is basically a 16bit OS and would be difficult to turn into a 32bit OS (just think of DOS to WinNT), they need something new. BeOS is simple and small enough to serve as a 32bit OS for their new StrongARM platform.

      Why does Palm have to "go beyond"? Because the market for simple calendaring/organizing is nearly saturated and the price keeps going down. Money is in vertical apps, and PalmOS is not an attractive proposition there.

  • review (Score:2, Informative)

    by jedwards ( 135260 )
    with a bit more depth than the press release at pdabuzz [pdabuzz.com]
    looks pretty.

  • Links and Screenshots (Score:3, Insightful)

    by sam_doshi ( 132520 ) on Thursday September 06, 2001 @06:02PM (#2261026)
    Useful links (including screenshots)
    Microsoft PocketPC 2002 Site [microsoft.com]
    PocketPC Thoughts [pocketpcthoughts.com]
    Smaller.com [smaller.com]
    PocketPC Passion [pocketpcpassion.com]
    • That is a nice set of links. Here's a few for those looking for information on Pocket PC in general:
      http://www.pocketpc.com (for general info)
      http://www.cewindows.com (for cool apps and info)
      http://www.thumbsupsoft.com/maphtm/themes.html (for cool themes)
      http://www.teco.edu/pda/irchat.html (IRChat, a cool multi-platform technology)
      http://www.rainer-keuchel.de/software.html (amazing CE software, including a great version of PERL)
      http://www.oke-e-doke.com/main.htm (Pocket Doom and Hexen, boo-yah!)
      http://www.mobtech.co.uk/ecbmob/itm00436.htm (An adapter to go from CF type 1 to PCMCIA. No need for an IPAQ now :) )


      Just thought I'd toss these out there, since I use WinCE as my secondary OS. FreeBSD of course is my fav, but I couldn't live without my handheld. From games, to books to writing code on the train, it rocks and fits into my pockets without making my pants fall down. Don't forget, Stowaway keyboards and CF Memory make the whole thing work!


      -WS

  • ha ha (Score:1)

    by wbav ( 223901 )
    ``Palm was first,'' he said, ``But Microsoft often gets it right on the third try.'' It only took palm one try.

    However, I do like this, becuase unlike palm microsoft has been more willing to support developers. To try to get some sample code from palm takes a form printed out in triplicate, signed and sent to califonia, and no, they won't take a fax. This compared to going to http://msdn.microsoft.com to get source to study. Which would you choose?

    • Re:ha ha (Score:2, Insightful)

      by SpectreGadget ( 465507 )
      While I agree with the "But Microsoft often gets it right on the third try." (look at ActiveSync), I don't agree that Palm got it right on the first try. It's just that their first try was good enough to catch a lot of interest and gave them the resources to focus on what the Palm does best. Microsoft is obviously aiming for the "gee wizz" category that will still not fit the largest target, but will undoubtably garner a following because of the neat features.

      As for me, my iPaq sits in a drawer, while my Blackberry 957 [blackberry.net] goes with me everywhere because it's a business tool, instead of just a toy. :)
    • Why does how easy it is to get sample source code from a company determine if one company's software is better than the other? In my eyes, if one company's software is better, you should use it no matter how hard it is to get sample code. (Yes, there are other reasons not to use software, I'm just focusing on this one post).
      • Well I'm just saying that palm is shooting themselves in the foot by putting up road blocks. Microsoft on the other hand has made a effort to help developers out.

  • BeOS will take time, Micro$oft ahead (Score:3, Interesting)

    by zottl ( 218302 ) <myzottl@[ ].de ['web' in gap]> on Thursday September 06, 2001 @06:06PM (#2261056) Homepage
    BeOS runs on x86 only, as far as I know [except some old apples etc, I know](something which has held them back in the embedded market also). It will probably take a comparably long time to port some BeOS-on-PDA to StrongARM or whatever Palm plans on using.
    One more thing: I guess the real PDA battle will be fought in the smartphone market (it just means hauling one box less around in your pockets if you have phone and pda integrated, and of course it makes sense too combine an adress manager etc with a phone). Microsofts Stinger platform is quite ready, whereas Palm isnt able to offer something competitive. I havent heard much of the EPoc/Psion-base Symbian platform, too...
    Looks like another market that will go to microsoft.
    • You are forgetting that Be Inc. changed it's buisness plan to BeIA, a version of BeOS meant for embedded applications such as Internet Appliances. (hence the name). The site also states that it runs on Pentium class processors and all Power PC chips. If I'm not mistaked, correct me if I am, motorola's Dragonball processors used in Palm's products are a branch of Power PC. So the chalenge of porting to this platform is not hard at all. The real question is, whether this is the right move for the platform. Palm OS is tested, tried, and true. It works just the way it was intended. I believe that the BeOS platform would need much more extensive testing than the company has had a chance to perform before it could be released for Palm's products. If it isn't broken, why try and fix it? Palm OS is wonderful. Mainly, it works and is easy to use.
      • The Dragonball processors are 680x0 based processors.
      • If I'm not mistaked, correct me if I am, motorola's Dragonball processors used in Palm's products are a branch of Power PC.

        Actually, they aren't. They're Motorola 680x0 family processors. Now, there is a computer company in Cupertino that did transition from 680x0 to PowerPC a while back, including emulating the 680x0 so that all their old applications still ran on the new machines. And, of course, both Palm and Be came from Apple alumni.

        So a move to PowerPC (which Motorola's been using heavily in embedded systems markets) combined with BeOS, combined with 680x0 emulation for "Classic PalmOS"...yeah, that could work.

      • Palm has announced that they are moving from 68K to ARM, so PowerPC code won't be that useful. Luckily BeOS is portable.
    • BeOS runs on x86 only

      Sack of shit. BeOS started its' life on PowerPC and was ported to x86 in a matter of weeks. _weeks_. Palm can port BeOS to whatever they want but you have to ask if there's a point. For instance - a lot of the stuff in BeOS was to do with SMP, is that really relevant in a handheld? Ditto a journaling filesystem or Posix compliance.

      I havent heard much of the EPoc/Psion-base Symbian platform

      Symbian are doing just fine. Maybe a bit behind where they ought to be, but the uber cool new Nokia communicators are out, available, can be bought. Symbian also have a more interesting view of OS design - they design it to be as light as possible, getting the processor back to its' sleep state quickly. While this doesn't matter a jot for a desktop OS, it's critical for those markets where reducing power consumption and hence battery size is important. Anything that goes in your pocket in other words.

      Dave
      • Sack of shit yourself. BeOS actually started life on the AT&T Hobbit processor, and was only later switched over to the PowerPC. Be was doing a lot of bragging in its early life about how this was evidence that they could port to anything if needs be. They then backed that up with the quick x86 port.

        -Aaron, the pedant

    • I havent heard much of the EPoc/Psion-base Symbian platform, too...

      Hmmm?

      • Nokia 9210. Colour, keyboard, everything. Pretty bulky though.
      • Ericsson R380. B&W with a smallish touchscreen (for a PDA. Huge screen for a phone), no handwriting recognition (you type on a virtual keyboard), but hardly bigger than a "normal" modern phone. Extremely cool toy, pretty fast (much faster than many conventional phones, like the Nokia 7110).

      The Nokia's come out fairly recently, but the R380 has been around for a while. As far as I know both are built on Symbian. You can certainly recognise some Psion-isms in the R380.

    • Aside from all of your comments that are just plain incorrect, you seem to also be oblivious to the lack of supporting services for the new Wince platform.

      First and foremost, the almost total lack of wireless networking is a big area where the new platform will stumble. It comes with MSN messenger... but without connectivity, it's useless. Email clients do not require an always on conecction, and are far more feasable in the PDA sphere.

      In addition, these unused (unusable?) services will run whether you want them to or not. (Sorry, I don't know this for sure, but c'mon, this is Microsoft!) And in the limited memory world of PDA's this should go over like a lead balloon.

      And WinCE battery life?? Most cannot make it through the average flight. Crank up the Jams, and you now have a Journada that runs for an hour and a half. They currently advertise up to 8 hours battery life, but it is closer to 3-4 hours of battery life "in use". more powerful hardware = less battery life.

      Microsoft can focus on giveaways to get these devices in the hands of Joe Corporate, but not without requiring more investments in networking infrastructure. And right now, companies are looking at: The next generation of desktops, upgrading their network infrastructure to fiber (or a least gigabit ether), moving to Active directory (for win shops), etc... All on limited budgets.

      To quote Bill Gates, "It's just sexy widgets". And will continue to be until these features have the support to be usable. Add in some of the MS annoyance factors "We'll give you this address after you hook to your desktop for WPA", and I don't think this will be the world beater that MS hopes.

      Yes, the product will be sucessful, and will capture more market share for Microsoft, but not among those who already buy the Palm and Handspring models. This product will appeal to the people who are willing to pay $300-$400 more to play MP3's off of a 32MB smart card. I.E. The people who really get turned on by sexy widgets. It will have the effect of bring new customers to the PDA sphere, not usurping Palm's user base.

      But, you can expect that the next couple of generations of Exchange Server will target new features that makes palm unable to read e-mail for MS servers, or hotmail... Microsoft is moving to control e-mail and the browser first, and then the net.

      Microsoft has used their desktop dominance and a lack of trained techs to capture the server market so that they can dominate both sides of the equation. From their own market hype: the TCO is lower because you don't need smart people to run NT server products. (paraphrased, but when they advertise that NT techs can be had for less, they are either ubiquitous or require less skill.)

      Palm does not have to compete in the Mini-Laptop biz, the Palm PDA is not a mini laptop, it is a PDA. The pocket PC is still not sure which one it wants to be. (And hence is not suitable to be either.)

      Personally, I'd like a PDA running QNX (www.getqnx.com) Small, fast, and able to run any and all Linux apps. The OS loads on a floppy. This is something MS hasn't been able to do since DOS...

      24MB of bloat on a 32MB PDA?? I'll buy that for a dollar....

      ~Hammy
  • Someone has already posted some interesting commentary regarding MS's poltential liabilities to the competitors under its conviction as a monopoly. In short, it was stated that any entity can claim a "Triple Damages" score against Microsoft. If you were a $1 million dollar company shut down by Microsoft's unlawful practices, you get $3 million back from Microsoft. How much was BeOS worth at its peak? $150 million? Maybe that translates to a lot of money for Palm? I dunno... Just wondering/guessing...
    • Palm would get nothing. Be, Inc. is still hanging around as a shell company that retains the right to sue MS and collect damages. At $0.12 a share, it could be fun to jump in and possibly get revenge on MS. If it doesn't happen, you only lose 12 cents + commissions :)

  • While the BeOS acquisition gives Palm a jump on their previous media capabilities, I for one am happy with my PalmOS just as is...I'd like faster hardware, but I don't want a PocketPC-wannabe OS from Palm.

    The simplicity of PalmOS is what makes it attractive...maybe for some superficial Joe Q. Public's the flashy wizbang stuff is a differentiator, but I'm hoping that BeOS doesn't replace PalmOS (maybe have a dual OS strategy? the media-rich BeSpawnOS and the no-nonsense evolution of today's PalmOS?)

    cz

    • Thank you. All of this pro-Microsoft PR shite ("It's a full Outlook client!" AS IF THAT DIDN'T SUCK BALLS) won't change the fact that Palm has won, and continues to win, because it's not bloated, heavy, overpriced, slow, and with short battery life.

      I use Palm and like it for this reason, and I'd rather fight than switch. Palm: please DON'T be tempted to match MS/HP/CPQ feature for feature.

      • Remember 3Dfx? They sat on their asses while Nvidia devoured their market share with newer, prettier technology. Palm warehouses are packed with handhelds they can't sell, PocketPC manufacturers can't keep up with demand.

        Palm doesn't need to match the PocketPC feature-for-feature, but they do need to give the Palm a major overhaul. The device looked great in 1996, but seriously, if you were a Windows user looking to buy a handheld today, the familiar UI (and desktop integration) of PocketPCs are mighty tempting.

      • it's only bloated on today's hardware... just like palmOS is bloated if you think about trying to run it on a TI-85. Microsoft is banking that the hardware will catch up soon and allow pocketpc to match palm's elegance.


        A note to the skeptics about pocketpc -- When I first saw Internet Explorer 1.0 I laughed and thought about how I would never use such a lame excuse for a browser. By the time 3.0 came along, IE had taken the lead and now it is hands down the best browser ever written. Microsoft may be able to accomplish the same kind of feat with pocketpc. For now, however, I'll stick with my palm and wait until I have reason to switch.

  • Among the first machines loaded with Pocket PC 2000 will be Hewlett-Packard Co.'s (NYSE:HWP - news) HP Jornada 565 and 568 devices, with suggested retail prices of $599 and $649, respectively, less a $50 rebate good through the end of 2001.

    The new Jornadas will be previewed tomorrow at the DemoMobile conference in La Jolla, California and are expected to ship in October.

    Like most other Pocket PC devices, the Jornadas occupy the high end of the market, as devices loaded with the Palm OS can be had for as little as $100.

    The higher-priced devices offer so many functions, according to Giga's Enderle, that they constitute viable stand-alone computers.

    ``The thing that impressed me the most is that it's a full Outlook client,'' he said, meaning the computer can have receive e-mail without relying on a desktop or laptop computer. ``These changes move the Pocket PC into what will likely be the sustaining generation of devices: they're always on, always connected and function as a stand-alone platform.''

    Okay, what role did MS have in the Compaq/HP merger?

    Merger is narrowing the field of competition in the laptop market, and Jornada device seems to replace laptop functions.

    The merger makes it more likely that HP/Compaq will have enough money and credit to aggressively market this Jornada.

    This announcement seems to be timed pretty close with the merger.

    I have no problem with Microsoft producing its software, but I do have a problem with social engineering - the deliberate restriction of markets outside software - such as palmtop hardware - in order to pursue its social engineering goals (e.g. replacing the laptop, and wedding MS programming to the palmtop).
  • I have to say that the concept of the pocketPC is to the 'noughties' as the file-o-fax was to the Eighties. However, they won't last for more than a few years.

    Future development will lead to pen terminals that can transmit solid holographic images and understand speech, and use the internet to connect to AI's at popular websites like MSN and google which will then intelligently order your life.

    Sound like Science Fiction? Well, I may be an artist by trade, but in fact researchers at the Neils Bhor institute have made the first steps towards this new totalitarianesque future of AI dominated walking mannequins. Last week they unveiled the TeleDaemon9, an AI that organises personal schedules, and a simple pen terminal using bluetooth that employees must obey when in the building.

    This may seem somewhat controversial [adequacy.org], but make no mistake that Personal Assistants are already making the subtle graduation to 'personnel controllers'. What are YOU going to do about it?

  • along with Monday's announcement of HP swallowing Compaq makes me wonder what the future of Compaq's iPAQ linux support will be... I'm sure MS attached effective $tring$ onto HP to push wince.

    I've seen many articles lately about Compaq's ineffective linux strategy but I feel that what they've done with the iPAQ has been very impressive. I've never been able to have direct contact with the engineers of a device/pc in getting support for linux, like I've had with Compaq (mailing lists and irc).

    Today, 'Corporatism' had a good day.

  • No BeOS for Palm (Score:2, Informative)

    by Splezunk ( 250168 )
    Palm has made an annoucement that BEIA will not be used, but that (cnet article [cnet.com]) the technology of the engineers and the multimedia savy will be used.

    I would love to see BeOS on a palm, but it might takes lots of more time.

  • From the article:
    ``It's like a kid growing into an adult and getting their first job,'' said Giga Information Group analyst Rob Enderle. ''The Pocket PC upgrade is targeted at a professional, maybe someone who's going to use this instead of a laptop.''

    and

    The changes in Pocket PC 2002 include a new version of Windows Media Player, which allows handheld users to listen to music and watch video clips

    Music, ok perhaps...(though seems like a rio might work better), but video? This does not seem like an appropriate form factor for watching much video. Replacing a laptop 12-15" screen with a pocketPC and media player doesn't really seem viable.

    Plus, at ~$600 this still doesn't seem to be aimed at the Palm demographic.

    -Ted
    • Ah..But you can't put a laptop in your pocket. I agree that you may not want to watch a lot of video on the Pocket PC, but I do find it handy to have my demo-reel available in my pocket, and with the Targus stowaway keyboard it does replace my laptop for daily typing tasks..

  • Excellent news. (Score:2, Insightful)

    by standards ( 461431 )
    The question isn't if customers will buy the new Microsoft-based Pocket PCs. Some will, many more will not.

    The question is if the CELL PHONE manufacturers will be able to:

    1. Readily integrate the OS into their devices.
    2. License the OS at reasonable fees.
    3. Find reasonable benefits for integrating the OS.

    So far, Palm is winning this battle, along with Java. Microsoft is not, and this doesn't seem to be a step in that direction.

    The current set of PDAs are just a waypoint to fully integrated devices. If Palm tries to follow the Microsoft path, Palm will fail. As will Microsoft.
    • Palm is winning the battle? Here in Europe I havent seen a single Smartphone based on PalmOS that was available in Stores. The rather clunky VisorPhone is your best choice here. Jave doesnt play that big a role; its more of a nice extension to play around with. And it also has yet to become popular. Whereas Microsoft recently bought a stake in the British cell phone upstart Sendo with plans to release smartphones based on Microsoft`s Stinger platform from Sendo, Siemens and many more. T
    • Cell phones?


      They use the Symbian Platform (Epoc) [symbian.com]


      (Ericsson R380 and Nokia 9210 already out)

  • Dear Palm... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by szcx ( 81006 ) on Thursday September 06, 2001 @06:12PM (#2261102)
    Remember 3Dfx? You're only as good as your last product, and your last product is two generations behind Microsoft.

    Get cracking.

    • See, lots of people are saying this, and I think that's MS's strategy. Frame the debate according to *their* preferences:

      1) Color screen!
      2) Actual handheld versions of desktop software!
      3) Multimedia!
      4) Wireless networking!
      5) Etc, ad nauseaum.

      They don't mention:
      6) Battery life
      7) Size of form factor (waaay bigger than Palm)
      8) Price
      9) Useability
      10) Appropriateness for *main* user needs.

      I'll say it again - Palm has to participate in the framing of this debate, or arguments like those above will actually (unjustly) damage them.
      • Here I agree. I love my Palm (IIIxe). I have it in my shirt pocket, and its taken its fair share of falls (the highest being 12+ ft, I was scaling a fence). It cost me some $150 at a developer price, and it does everything I need. If I want more functionality, I go for a laptop. My basic feeling is that a Palm is USEFUL, whereas a WinCE device is a TOY. An expensive and cumbersome toy at that.
    • No, Palm is one generation "behind" Pocket PC devices. (If you count not having improved MP3 support and wireless networking as being behind.) OS 4.0 was released spring 2001. And Palm still has two features in its arsenal: price and form factor.

      Today I saw a full-page ad in the Chicago Tribune for an iPAQ for $549 with a wireless sled from GoAmerica for a total of $849. Can you believe paying $849 for a wireless PDA? You could buy a Dell 1.4GHz PC (with a monitor) for that price these days. Instead I bought our VP of Sales a Palm VIIx for $99 ($100 rebate). It's cheaper, it delivers more relevant information, and it isn't 3" thick. And that's where Palm's true strengths lie, not in being however many generations you think they are behind Pocket PC's.

  • "CIBC World Market analyst Thomas Sepenzis said the two PC makers could lean on their extensive contacts in the corporate market to extend the market share of their hardware, and by default, the market share of Microsoft's software.

    ``H-P and Compaq have awesome enterprise contacts,'' he said. ''Chances are they will say 'you buy 16 e-business servers from us and we'll throw in 500 (Compaq) iPAQs or (H-P) Jornadas, and we'll support them for you.''

    This is how Microsoft always wins. They do whatever they have to do to win. Get partners to give away products that push M$ software? No problem, M$ probably subsidizes HewPaq in this endeavor.
  • As far as OS's go, Microsoft has always played catch-up in terms of technology. (Win95 was matching macintosh `84, for example)

    With the new HP/Compaq merger pending, I doubt either of the two hopeless companies will keep their head above water high enough to help support any sort of effort from Microsoft. Without the iPAQ or jornada, how can Pocket PC 2002 increase the already dwindling %10 of the marketshare it currently has?

    On a side note, there is no prayer for it when the jornada is $600...I can get a Palm for $200 that will do more. I know the features well because I sell the jornada, and the price is just not worth the features over the palm. Tough sale to make, even at the sub-$400 pricetag for the 525 and 545 that they currently have.
    • As far as OS's go, Microsoft has always played catch-up in terms of technology. (Win95 was matching macintosh `84, for example)


      haha.. you are joking right? Mac's are just now gaining the ability to multitask with version X and they had to buy the technology off of next.

      Without the iPAQ or jornada, how can Pocket PC 2002 increase the already dwindling %10 of the marketshare it currently has?


      another joke right? pocketpc devices are selling out while palm devices set in warehouses. pocketpc devices are steadily gaining marketshare while palmos devices are declining rapidly, because like the mac, they are old technology that doesnt do as much stuff.

  • What kind of compatibility? (Score:3, Funny)

    by alewando ( 854 ) on Thursday September 06, 2001 @06:15PM (#2261118)
    ``The thing that impressed me the most is that it's a full Outlook client,'' he said, meaning the computer can have receive e-mail without relying on a desktop or laptop computer.

    What kind of compatibility are we talking about here? Is this a fully functioning version of Outlook? What I mean is, if I equip my entire production staff with these devices, can I expect to lose billions of dollars [thebackrow.net] with full compatibility with Outlook viruses? I have to ask, because a few billion here and a few billion there really make a difference, you know, and if my company doesn't start losing time and money like our competitors, then my job as CIO just isn't secure.

    I think I'll wait and see until Microsoft promises 100% Outlook virus compatibility. Call me conservative, but that's my honest judgment.
  • According to Microsoft the number of new features will make the OS a more 'useful' tool for corporate workers. Cnet has a interesting here [cnet.com]
  • It looks great, but in actuality does it matter if you can have a full outlook client if you have to recharge the batteries every 10 minutes? These guys should take a cue from Nintendo, the maker of the longest lasting handheld monopoly, Game Boy and get a screen that uses next to nothing for power. I've got a Visor Prism (don't ask, dot commie mistake) and it also looks great but the batteries don't last that long under use. You should be able to use these things for multiple days without recharge or swap of batteries. The new GB (not advance) lasts for a whole day on only a single battery. If Palm can keep up it's crazy long battery life then I think that it can beat MS. Handhelds are good in areas where using a laptop is problematic, not tethered to a power supply.
  • ``Palm is going to be bringing out a new operating system ... the belief is they'll have it done by the end of next year,'' he said. ``But it's hard to ship those things on time. It could take years, and Palm doesn't have years.''

    Ok, so the trend is overpowerful PDAs to replace your desktop? If you want to use a PDA with desktop-like applications, why not use a Linux PDA with Qt Palmtop Environment [trolltech.com]? It's GPL and you can download it from the site. "Just add Linux and stir" it says on the page. Use Konq Embedded [konqueror.org] while you're at it, which is also complete. No vaporware here! Of course, you need a capable PDA to run these on. Hehe, are those available? :) Maybe iPAQ?

    Oh and...

    ``The thing that impressed me the most is that it's a full Outlook client,'' he said, meaning the computer can have receive e-mail without relying on a desktop or laptop computer."

    Golly gee. You could've received email with other PDAs for years too, like the Psions. Too bad they never got the recognition they deserve here in the states. At least with the built-in keyboard you could actually compose meaningful replies. Now that's power.
    • So if I want a PDA I should go get a Palm that looks (and runs) like a calculator? I'd rather get an iPAQ with 64megs of ram and a 4k colour screen.


      I can't imagine using a Linux PDA is any better than a Windows one - the WinCE ones are very fast, *and* use the same software as the desktop PC.


      Outlook is much more than an email client. I guess most Linux people don't realise that. It has can share data between groups of people in an office/company automatically, offers collective diaries and to-do lists, automatically tells people when other people are out of the office, the list goes on. I'd like to see a Linux PDA do all that out of the box. in colour. while playing a video. over a wireless lan.

  • 'The Pocket PC upgrade is targeted at a professional, maybe someone who's going to use this instead of a laptop.'


    If you give it the power to do more than a simple organizer but give it a dinky screen and a pen pased input, it's going to be a professional's toy.

    Either that, or it will require you to lug around accessories (like a keyboard).

  • Made for Business, another MS Cruise Missile (Score:3, Interesting)

    by digital_freedom ( 453387 ) on Thursday September 06, 2001 @06:30PM (#2261184)
    Sorry Linux guys and anti-MS people (I count myself as one). This new PocketPC 2002 will hit Palm where it has traditionally had its early adopters. It will also affect many other companies like Rim and their Blackberry pagers. If this OS can provide half of the functionality it says it can, then I believe this will be the slap down on Palm.
    Basically, the Exchange functionality is the real killer. Since MS through its monopoly is used for most big corps as the email server, this integration will be great for users. It will be just like having a Blackberry, only better. It kind of reminds me of what those pads on Star Trek do.
    After taking over corporate America, much like NT a true consumer version of this stuff will hit the mass market. After businesses accept this, prices will come down and be even more palatable with the mass market. I can only hope that the free wireless network movement can make ubiquitous computing an economic reality.

    Just my $.02
    • Maybe, maybe not. There are issues here that were not addressed in this article, like performance issues. CE and the first Pocket PC OSes were horribly slow, and bug prone (like many MS products). The idea of placing as much as they have on the product seems like they are, again, asking too much from a palm size device. Also, previous MS OSes for palm devices have been huge, leaving as much space left as Palm devices generally had.

      For $600 dollars, if it can only store a few songs, or has severe performance issues then the uptake will be very slow, even in the "high end" area that you talk about.

      Could this potentially be a death blow to Palm, maybe. It is far too early to tell.
    • Yeah, this is getting off topic, but I found your quote about the new Pocket PC's reminding you about the ST data pads really funny.

      Have you ever noticed that the data pads get handed out with the information already in them? Crew members are not assigned a pad which has new information or instructions beamed to it. Don't they have the technology?

      If that is what Microsoft has in mind, Palm has very little to worry about. Actually, that's probably not true. History has shown that people will take a product with less features and lower quality if the marketing dept does a good enough job (Beta V. VHS, LaserDisc V. VCR, MiniDisc v. CD, Windows v. OS/2, etc).
  • the "competition" simply roll over and die whenever Microsoft announces it's going to enter a market?

    I know, I know, once upon a time Quicken won, and both Talisman and Bob flopped. But Microsoft has demonstrated that they learn from their mistakes. When was their last market disaster.

    Perhaps an interesting strategy would be to give them the market on their first try, then learn from their product mistakes and come back.
    • Their last disaster was the first N generations of Windows CE.
    • Quicken didn't win, they submitted to pressure. The president of Intuit testified during the trial that MS approached them and told them that either they made Netscape break with Quicken and other Intuit products, or MS Money would be released for free and then integrated. Intuit rolled over, MS won.
  • I have been using a Palm device for about 2.5 years now. I loved it but I recently bought a Jornada with a CDPD modem and I live on the thing. The CDPD service could be faster but pocket IE rocks. I now have email and web access anywhere (except Atlanta so far) that I go.

    Palm had it going on for a long time but they haven't added much in the last 2.5 years and that is an eternity in this business. Simplicity is great but I'm willing to live with the increased complexity of PocketPC to get what I want. Palm needs to work on their screens and offer some more up scale hardware. Browsing at 160x160 resolution sucks. 1/4 VGA isn't optimal but it is much better. Compact Flash support is a must these days. I can add dirt cheap memory to the PocketPC and store all of my reference docs on the thing.

    The only thing that I really like better on the Palm is the handwriting recognition. Grafitti is better than the PocketPC equivalent. I used grafitti for 2.5 years before starting to us the PocketPC so my brain may just be fucked up that way now.

  • PalmOS has Pocket PC abilities, too. (Score:4, Insightful)

    by exceed ( 518714 ) on Thursday September 06, 2001 @06:38PM (#2261222)
    While this Yahoo! article mentions alot about Pocket PC 2002's features, it does not mention that Palm OS has many of the same, as well. Here [palmos.com] is a description of PalmOS' platform. It clearly states that PalmOS 4.0 has 16-bit color, Bluetooth wireless connectivity, faster universal serial bus (USB) connections, and support for wireless Internet. Here [palmos.com], the site goes into even more detail on it's features.

    What I found interesting in Pocket PC 2002 is that it comes with Windows Media Player, and an Outlook client. However, users in PalmOS can listen to media and send e-mail too, it just isn't your godly Microsoft applications. Just my two cents on the matter...
    • One thing I noticed that the current version of Wince (3.0) can do all those things too. And my ipaq came with a version of windows media player, and an outlook client.

      Admitedly there are some anoying bugs like lack of left handed support, and poor hand writing recognition support (of course that could be because I'm left handed).

      But I've seriously cruised a variety of wireless and wired networks with my ipaq. Most PC-Cards have drivers for CE and they work :).
    • Look at this in comparison to the fields microsoft has stomped out: palm has survived. It's the third round where microsoft wins or dominates, and wince 3 just didn't cut it. So ms, floundering, tries for 4.0 . . . they may be too late . . .
  • [ugh] the speculative comment at the end of the original post is just that --speculative commentary. let's not jump to conclusions. i'll reserve my excitement for the first genuine, bona fide rumor.

    and for whomever submits it, please don't skimp on the fake screenshots.
  • ``These changes move the Pocket PC into what will likely be the sustaining generation of devices: they're always on, always connected and function as a stand-alone platform.''

    Yep. Always on. For the entire 30 minutes of battery life. Honestly, at Comdex here in Toronto this year, not a single WinCE device was on display without a power cord.

    I'm sure there are plenty of enterprise applications for this OS that I haven't thought of, but Palm does plenty (off-the-shelf and custom), its battery life is amazing and it just plain works.

    Palm must not get sucked into playing this game by Microsoft's rules. They've got a simple, robust, ubiquitious platform. Microsoft has none of those attributes, but will try to goad Palm into giving them up in favour of competing feature-for-bullshit-feature.

  • Screenshots (Score:1, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward
    infoSync's article has plenty of screenshots of the new interface:

    http://www.infosync.no/en/news/n/566.asp [infosync.no]
  • that Palm and MS are going for. Palm's are cheap and Pocket PC's are expensive (by comparison). The strange thing is that even though one costs half as much as the other, they are always compared. Kind of like comparing a Ford Escort and a BMW.

  • And what about the much rumored Apple iPad? At +/- 1000x1000 resolution (I've seen both 1000x1000 and 1024x768), WiFi, 5+ hrs battery life, USB, and OS X I'd dump both my Plam V and my iPaq 3670 in a second. (...dreams of mornings on the patio with my coffee and my pad checking mail and laughing at slashdot...)

    I think PDA's will always have their place, but I really believe the BIG market in the next few years (for business anyway) is going to be wireless tables.

  • So let's review the actual functions (Score:3, Funny)

    by gelfling ( 6534 ) on Thursday September 06, 2001 @08:30PM (#2261548) Homepage Journal
    Outlook client - wowie. Be still my heart.
    802.11b - so you can wander around your office using the Outlook client to:
    1) Get windows media files and play them back. Obviously that feature has ZERO utility on a WAN link.
    2) Get your mail - function limited by bandwidth
    3) Play some games
    4) Some vaguely enhanced security? WTF is that a built in SECUREID card? Don't think so Did MS secretly fix the man in the middle attack or develop a new encryption for WEP? Don't think so. Maybe its a poweron password or something equally exotic.
    5) Anything else or do you have enough sunshine up your ass?
  • I've been using a Palm IIIx for roughly 3 years now. It okay, nothing spectacular. What I'm realy waiting for though is basically the killer PDA. I want something that has a great screen. I mean really good resoultion. I don't want to be able to see the damn pixels on the screen. I want built-in 802.11b. At least 2 week battery life. Powerfull proccessors. Powerfull enough to play live video over the previously mention wireless connection. I would like the screen to be slightly bigger than they are now. The unit can be no thicker than the current Palm V series. Built-in stereo speakers (That you can actually hear!!!) Large storage space. A gig would be perfect. Some sort of smart media cards. Compact Flash would be nice. IR port that has some distance to it. Built-in mic for the natural language speach recognition software (included). A vibrater, like cell phones have. That way your PDA can tell you things with out having to beep at you. (I hate ringing cell phones in place where they should be off.)

    That's about all I can think of right now. If there is a unit out there like that, I will be the first to buy it!
  • Is it time we changed the PDA icon from an outdated Palm III to something newer? A handrsping, a Vx, or maybe an iPaq?
  • I have a TRGpro. I have a PalmPix, folding keyboard, Gamepad, 128MB CF card, CF Modem, clip-on voice recorder and leather belt pouch for it. I will not be upgrading to a new device -- it does everything I need from a PDA (which is mostly mobile e-mail, plus a bit of digital camera and game stuff). If I get another device it will be because this one breaks. If I upgrade because I can't get an exact replacement it will be to the current Handera device because it still supports the PalmIII connection that most of my accessories use. More likely I would pickup a cheap IIIc from a pawnbrokers.

    For a while now the "Next Big Thing" has offered little or nothing I find desirable. Quite frankly, most people who would use a PDA would do fine with a IIIe or V (or an old WinCE unit if they're that way inclined).

    I don't need my PDA to be able to play movies and my mobile phone has the MP3 attachment (which makes more sense 'cause mobiles are all about audio).

  • They keep announcing products with underperforming processor, low number of colors, lack of features and an overpriced tag for the high-end when you compare them to the WinCE equivalent.

    It's sad to say, PALM was the first company to really do a big market penetration and bring PDA to every rich person that could afford one back then, but now, clearly, microsoft is catching up rapidly, and I'd tend to see PALM pulling a netscape within a few years.

    If PALM was such in a good shape, It wouldn't be that low [yahoo.com] eventho the market is flatlining. Of course I'd love to see some competition, but right now the only place they can compete is putting their high-end to the "mid" or "lowend" of the PDA branch and pricing accordingly.

    Heck I've seen toys with about the same features then their newer "lowcost" one, for half the price :)
  • This means that the next Outlook-borne virus will be really tiny! That way it can spread even faster than its ancestors... I think I'll call it - Mini-Me!
  • Why does Microsoft need to release a whole new version of the OS just to add Bluetooth? Palm is just going to patch it, no need to alienate the 2MB Palm users, but the 16 and 8MB PPC users won't get the full version of Merlin. How fair is that?
    • There are three reasons that companies presents new products - money, money, and money.

      Merlin puts higher requirements on the hardware, which means that you can install Pocket PC 2002 on your handheld, but only use half of the new features. So what are you going to do then? Buy a new handheld of course! Microsoft scratches Compaqs back, and Compaq scratches back... :-)
  • One interesting thing about the PocketPC 2002 is, that the hardware is required to have FlashROM, as mentioned here:

    http://www.microsoft.com/mobile/pocketpc/pocketpc2 002/upgrade.asp

    This was previously a problem with some manufactures (CASIO for example), that they needed to replace the device for upgrade.

    But this could also mean, than a new generation of Palm-Size devices will roll out, that can be upgraded to a /different/ OS. Given, that Palm also moves to ARM (which is the only supported CPU for PocketPC 2002) and the various succesful *NIX ports to the ARM/Palm platforms (iPAQ as reference), we can probably hope to have choices which OS we want to run on our devices.

  • IMHO, Palm and PocketPC are both competing in different markets. Comparing one with the other is like (excuse the cliche), comparing apples with bananas :).

    If you want a lightweight, small, sexy looking fast loading organizer, get a palm.

    If you want a desktop computer in your palm ... then I guess PocketPC is where you'll be headed.

    Jerrold.

  • Hi all,

    there's an interesting new article over on the Compaq [compaq.com] website about the upgrade of current iPAQs to Merlin (PocketPC 2002):

    "You made a great decision when you purchased your iPAQ Pocket PC!
    Compaq will offer an upgrade to Microsoft Pocket PC 2002 for the iPAQ Pocket PC H3600 and H3100 Series.
    You can place your order starting September 17, and shipments of the upgrade CD will begin in mid-October.
    * If you purchased the iPAQ Pocket PC H3600 or H3100 Series between September 6, 2001 and November 30, 2001, your upgrade is free*.
    (*You only pay for shipping, handling, and applicable tax for the upgrade CD.)

    The process will involve completing and printing a form, then mailing or faxing it to Compaq, along with your proof of purchase.

    * If you purchased the iPAQ Pocket PC before September 6 or after Nov 30, the upgrade will cost $29.95. Shipping, handling, and applicable taxes will be added to this amount.

    Return to this site on or after September 17 to request or order the upgrade. "

    The URL is here [compaqordercenter.com] (thanks to Dave's Compaq iPAQ [davescompaqipaq.com] site for the original source of this news).

    This comes after Compaq's announcement [compaq.com] that "Customers can be assured that any iPAQ Pocket PC purchased today is upgradable to future Pocket PC software--a feature unique to the iPAQ."

    I think this is pretty bad form on Compaq's part. First they announce that all current iPaqs will support Pocket PC 2002, with the wording of the announcement strongly reassuring potential buyers that it's really OK to buy one now, then they announce that they'll only supply the OS upgrade to people who've bought one from the 6th onward! Since I just bought an H3630 (ordered it on the 29th August) partly due to this announcement, I feel a little cheated. Compaq should supply the upgrade free to everyone who ordered an iPaq on or after the day they announced that the current generation would support the new OS.

    Of course it does depend on how much the upgrade costs for us non-eligible owners, if it's say GBP30 (USD 50 or so) then while there'd be a fair bit of grumbling, most users would be willing to pay this (assuming there are significant reasons to upgrade).

    As for whether it'll fit into the 16MB flash ROM, well according to most reports I've read on the misc. Pocket PC sites there'll be TWO versions of Pocket PC 2002, a scaled down one for all the current devices and the full version for the next-gen machines. There's more info at CNet here
    http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1006-200-7025389.html% 20tag=mn_hd [cnet.com]

    Oh, I might as well part with a few iPAQ links of my own (in no particular order):

    http://www.tekguru.demon.co.uk/ [demon.co.uk]

    http://www.pdatweaks.com/ [pdatweaks.com]

    http://www.ludipocket.co.uk/ [ludipocket.co.uk]

    http://www.pdageek.com/ [pdageek.com]

    http://www.pdabuzz.com/ [pdabuzz.com]

  • PocketPC2002 looks realy promising... kudos to M$ for fixing so many issues brought up by customers.

    And, the new HP units look really sweet: they weigh between 6 and 7 oz, have a removable battery!, a 14 hour battery life (without backlight), and a CF slot.

    That said, PocketPC is not light years ahead of PalmOS as so many CE zealots claim. Yes, PocketPC has many advantages, but so does PalmOS. It depends on your needs.

    The Sony Clie's battery life with backlighting is as good as the new HPs' without backlighting. The Sony weighs 5.6 oz, has better formfactor for one-handed use, has a higher resolution (but smaller) screen, and you can get the N610C for $320! (a little over half the price of the new HP 64MB unit)

    Like I wrote, PocketPC has advantages (especially if you need multimedia or multitasking instead of taskswitching), but it's still inefficient for a handheld OS compared to PalmOS (hence the high memory, CPU, and battery requirements). There are a few things you can do on PocketPC that you can't do with a Palm, but not many (Palms are not just organizers; they have databases, spreadsheets, word processors, etc...).

    So, the Sony Clie is still smaller, lighter, cheaper, and easier to use for most computing tasks. PocketPCs can do multitasking and multimedia (BTW, the Clie 710C plays MP3s, but it's $80 more than the 610C and movie playback still sucks).

    Choose the platform that fits your needs. For most users, I suspect the Sony is still a better choice.

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