Palm to Shift to ARM Processor 167
krugdm writes "According to this article, Palm is expected to announce that it will be modifying its OS to run on faster ARM processors instead of the current Motorola Dragonball processor."
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Palm to Shift to ARM Processor
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BLISS is ignorance.
dragonball (Score:1)
Re:The obvious question: (Score:1)
Yeah. And who needs a computer with more than 640k of memory, anyhow?
Re:Java possibilities (Score:1)
Re:Brave Move (Score:1)
When only a few companies incorpate RISC, they boast about that a lot. In reality, pipelining is probably are more importance leap for perforamnce, isn't it?
Because most vendor realize pipelining is good about the same time, no one really care to marketing it.
When a cpu translates CISC internally into a few RISC instructions to execute, it is only matter to the marketing department to decide should the cpu be named as CISC or RISC.
Thomas
Re:Need for speed (Score:2)
And no, they can't help you move pencils with your telekenetic "third arm", sorry.
Down that path lies madness. On the other hand, the road to hell is paved with melting snowballs.
Re:More difficult for Handspring (Score:1)
Re:the world of incompatibility (Score:2)
The core apps that come with the device will be ported to the new architecture.
If there is an emulation layer (which seems likely) the new chips should be plenty fast enough to emulate an old, slow chip like the DragonBall. Many 3rd-party apps may even see a speedup, depending on how good the emulation is.
Re:ARM faster than the Dragonball - open wins (Score:2)
And of course, this is just how Motorola prefers to do business. Lock 'em in, suck 'em dry. God, you should try dealing with them in telecom...
Re:Apple transition (Score:2)
I disagree. The one thing Apple didn't do going 68k->PPC was fragment their market. Sure, the first generation of PowerMacs ran old 68k software slower than the last 68k Macs, but that was more than made up for by the fact that it was relatively easy to port apps to PPC native code, and when you did, they ran much, much faster. [Incidently, Apple never introduced "faster" Quadras after the first PowerMacs - the fastest Quadra was the 840 @ 40MHz, which came out several months before the first PowerMacs. The only post-PPC 68k machines were the 630s and the PB190 @ 33MHz. Yes, the 630s were a big mistake for Apple. I blame Scully.] Even Quadras weren't dead ends at that point, other than being slow (as all new computers will eventually be); consider that the first MacOS that wouldn't run on any 68k machine was 8.5 in 1998 - 4.5 years after PPCs first debuted.
Apple was also very successful with the transition because they had a great emulator (in software! that's important), which was perfected in about a year, at which point PPC Macs were outperforming the fastest 68k macs in emulation. There were *no* incompatibilities due to the emulator.
Apple's biggest mistake was that after transitioning to PPC, they relied too heavily on their emulator. They sat around with their old OS software which did not perform as well as it could have been. 8.5 made a huge difference, but even 9.1 still has legacy 68k code sitting around in various parts.
Where Palm is in trouble is that, while Strong ARMs are fast, I don't know that they're fast enough to emulate old-series Palms. This might be important. Apple had the luxury of knowing that PPCs would eventually be fast enough to make up for any performance lost to emulation. Does Palm have this? Either way, it should be easy to avoid the mistake of relying on an emulator too heavily. However, Palm might be able to just say "okay, use a new Palm, use all new software too."
In conclusion, Palm: figure out if you need to support old software on new Palms: if you're technically capable of doing so, make an emulator; if you make an emulator make it work perfectly, but don't rely on it for too long; don't second-guess your product strategy and go backwards with old-generation products; and deliver your customers the features they care about, not the ones your competitors think are important.
What'll be even funnier... (Score:2)
I give 'em two years.
Re:The obvious question: (Score:2)
Have you ever developed software for the palm? It's butt ass slow. Doing any kind of drawing routines can be downright painfull. I know a few people who will be dancing in the street when these bad boys hit the shelves.
Re:Strike A New POSE (Score:2)
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Re:More CPU power can be useful for palm (Score:2)
This moves us onto the second question, which was about feature count. WinCE's trying to do much more than is appropriate for a handheld machine; things (like word processing) which are honestly better left to a desktop computer. The point I was making about "waaay too overpriced for too little functionality" was in comparison to the desktop machine that WinCE's apparently trying to overtake.
And finally, I have to quote this one directly:
That's just it. The pocketPC is simply overpowered for what's needed from a handheld. Sure you could make a handheld computer that does everything a desktop does, but you'll pay for it in weight, size, battery life, cost, and complexity. The Palm handheld is simple. The core applications that it comes with it don't have complex user interfaces, don't require megabytes of ram (the original palm came with what, 128K?), and don't ask much of the user in order for them to find use for it. They can just pop in whatever phone numbers they want, maybe a name, whatever.If you're looking for a cool new toy, go WinCE. If you're looking for a useful tool, go Palm. Feature count simply doesn't matter once the features you need are present.
--
More CPU power can be useful for palm (Score:5)
Palm's single greatest asset has been a _WELL_DEFINED_ _PLAN_ and a _TARGET_MARKET_. CE's target market is "Palm's customers," without a second thought about _WHO_ those people are: salespeople, businesspeople, etc... you know, the _ordinary_user_, who doesn't really care that much about running a full web browser in their pocket (hence the philosophical difference between full internet connectivity and web clipping
I don't see Palm turning their products into the ubergeek-toys that the CE crowd has been putting out: tiny handheld computers that are simply painful to use because they try to replace desktop computers with shitty, overpriced, small screened, keyboardless versions. Palm aims for the general public with a tool that lets you store your data, recall it, and otherwise, just gets out of your damn way.
CE's just turning into another Apple Newton: a handheld computer that's waaay too overpriced for too little functionality; useful only to those
Palm's probably going to use the new CPU power for things like a prettier GUI, voice recognition, MP3 playing, and perhaps some multimedia. At the end of the day, just improving what it does now: assists you with your life's tasks, not taking them over like CE.
But, let me end my random tirade on WinCE versus PalmOS... I'm afraid that the percentage of people here on
--Lally Singh, Palm Software Developer.
--
Re:Need for speed (Score:2)
More memory means more stuff for "find" to search (for those that don't know find runs every app and asks it to look at all the data it knows how to search). More pixels (and more bits per pixel) means more stuff to manipulate on the screen, again requiring more CPU to keep up.
Is the Palm slow? I had a Visor Delux until a month or so ago, it never felt all that slow. I broke (and later repaired -- any one want to buy a Delux?) it, and got an Edge. It feels a whole whole whole lot faster. So did I need it? I don't think so. Now that I have it, will I give it up? No, I don't think so.
Besides, it could allow other kinds of applications. Ever wonder why it costs $200 for a MP3 playing module? If you had a 200Mhz ARM you wouldn't need $200 worth of hardware to play MP3's (you may still need an external module for stereo output).
Plus...maybe better games. Civ would be fun...And if MicroProse won't do it, maybe someone will port OpenCiv, but it just isn't any fun porting things to a non-memory protected OS (and the DragonBall doesn't have a MMU, the ARM does...hopefully the ARM version of PalmOS will use it)
Re:Need for speed? (Score:2)
Are you sure they are using more power, as opposed to storing less? The IIIxe takes normal AAA batts, the m500's have a built in rechargable. Rechargables tend to be more costly, and store less power per unit volume. The m500 most likely lasts 30% as long because it only has 30% of the power! (well, it may consume a little more power to run the CPU at 33Mhz vs. 25Mhz, but probably not much since the CPU on a Palm spends most of it's time "executing" the HALT instruction).
My "new" Visor edge has more then 50% of it's battery after 2 weeks of use (with the power not connected to the cradle). My old Visor Deluxe (anyone want to buy it?) has rechargable NiMH AAA's in it. It lasts about 5 weeks between charges. It doesn't look to me like the Edge eats it's power noticeably faster (and I use the backlight more on the edge because the lighting is more even, and also it's far louder speaker sucks more power, and my new headphones keep me from hearing the alarm a lot of the time, so it frequently has to ring a lot more...)
Re:The obvious question: (Score:2)
Eh? Not only can the Palm do that, it can do that via SSH. Go look at TopGun SSH. Enjoy.
Re:Need for speed (Score:2)
Re:More difficult for Handspring (Score:2)
Re:(*Grin*) (Score:1)
Re:New DragonBall (Score:1)
Palm will have a 68K emulator in their new OS. It will execute system calls in native ARM code, so it should be pretty fast for most programs.
Re:The obvious question: (Score:3)
Re:Slipping on banana peels (Score:1)
Re:(*Grin*) (Score:1)
Re:Performance (Score:1)
Re:Slipping on banana peels (Score:1)
Even funnier... (Score:1)
Re:One chance for glory (Score:1)
Re:Need for speed (Score:1)
Re:the world of incompatibility (Score:2)
Re:Now will they fix the OS? (Score:2)
Re:The obvious question: (Score:2)
I dunno -- I have a telnet app on my Palm that I can use to run emacs. Seems to me that's a real app... haven't connected to an Oracle instance, but I've managed a PostgreSQL DB with it.
The telnet app is only a double-handful of K too. However, trying to run emacs with a stylus is... well, pretty stupid.
Now will they fix the OS? (Score:1)
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Re:recompiling for new OS ver is old hat (Score:2)
This is simply not true. When I upgraded from my Palm Professional (running PalmOS 2.0) to a Palm V (running PalmOS 3.5.2), every single program I had continued to work. Even system software like Hackmaster continued to work.
In addition, as a palm developer, I have developed software using the PalmOS 3.5 SDK, the software runs just fine on PalmOS 2. This requires the developer to be aware of what API's appear on what PalmOS versions, and work around the lack of API's on older versions of the OS, but it is possible.
PalmOS is probably the best OS at maintaining compatibility that I have worked with.
The obvious question: (Score:3)
Tell me why an electronic datebook / addressbook / personal information unit needs a fast processor? Is it that important to display a datebook entry in
The Palm line was designed for a few specific tasks, and to perform those tasks well. Palm succeeded in doing this; the Palm is a wonderful organizer. But who needs an organizer that runs faster than 33 megahertz?
A switch to ARM-based chips means that Palm OS-based handhelds will run at significantly higher clock speeds than their current 33MHz. This means the devices will be able to handle more complex applications, such as video streaming and digital-audio playback, and to match the processing power of handhelds based on Microsoft's Pocket PC operating system.
Okay, hold up. Let's review this:
Palm has significantly more market share than Windows CE, because it does what it's designed to do a lot BETTER than CE.
So why are they changing their product to adapt to the weaker market segment? Who the fuck needs digital audio and streaming video embedded in their addressbook? Yes, it's badass whiz-bang stuff, but not practical. They throw in the excuse of "planning for the future", but that's marketspeak bullshit. They need to concentrate on making their products BETTER, and not necessarily COOLER.
-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon?
On schedule (Score:3)
Do all the math and you can easily come up with roughly the same hardware spec as a current iPAQ handheld, but about $200 cheaper since it will hit the market about a year later, which in 2002 puts a color 200 MHz ARM-based device with 16-32MB memory built in right in Palm's pricing sweet spot.
While Compaq will be targeting its $500-$600 price range with lovely 300 MHz 64 MB devices, this hypothetical $400 Palm device should be comparable performance-wise to the current iPAQ, but with longer battery life and what will probably be transparent support for all Dragonball Palm apps. They're not dead yet.
Re:PocketPC Palm Emulator... (Score:2)
Jon Acheson
That will be in Palm OS 5, due out next year. (Score:2)
Jon Acheson
Backwards compatibility will be maintained. (Score:2)
Jon Acheson
You mean, they'll cancel the current line? (Score:2)
The fact is, the Palms and the Newton were and are entirely different animals. The Newton was tablet-sized, at least twice as expensive, didn't hotsync, and was more of a tablet PC than a calculator-like device.
It didn't really sell, possibly due to a bad launch (the thing was rushed out the door thanks to bad decisions by John Scully). But then, tablet devices generally don't. It might have been spun off into a survivable independant company, but even that is debatable. There is enough of a niche market in hospitals and etc. to keep tablet PCs going, but the tablet PCs can run Windows software. They probably woudn't make it if they had to develop all their own software.
The Palms did sell, because they're small enough, cheap enough, get enough battery life, back up their data, and they're easy to use like a calculator. Plus, Palm made it easy to develop for, and the devices come with all the basic apps you need.
The Palms are about as much like the Newton as a dog is like a dire wolf. Same phylum, maybe, but sorry, one of them just didn't make it in the wild.
Jon Acheson
Re:You mean, they'll cancel the current line? (Score:2)
I do think that there eventually would have been something very much like a palm even if there had been no Palm or Newton. There was enough experimentation going on that someone would have hit on the sweet spot and form factor. The size comes from things like pocket notebooks, cigarette packs, shirt pockets and Game Boy. The battery life would need to be greater than a walkman's (Sorry, CE). The price follows from everything else but needs to be below half the cost of a laptop.
Jon Acheson
Re:Need for speed (Score:2)
It's all got to do with the relative cost of the processors. I don't know, but I suspect that a Dragonball chip is now *very* cheap, so they make up a smaller and smaller part of the manufacturing cost of Palm devices. However, they aren't likely to get any cheaper.
As time goes by, the ARM processor will reach a point where it, similarly, costs only a few dollars more than a Dragonball. At that point, seeing that you get maybe ten times the performance for negligible cost, why wouldn't you go with the high-performance solution and the extra applications it will make possible?
Go you big red fire engine!
Re:The obvious question: (Score:2)
> do a lot BETTER than CE.
Palm has the market share because it was the first that gave the consumers an affordable, pocketable device that got the job done. Previous attempts all went drastically wrong in at least one of those departments.
Palm is losing the market share because WinCE devices are starting to get that mix of features right also, and offer features above and beyond that. Given the choice of spending $400 on a basic device that gets the job done, or on a really fancy device that gets the job done, most consumers (you possibly excluded) would opt for the fancy device.
That is simply the reason why Palm needs to get with the program. Just look at the automobile industry, which could teach them a thing or two about minimum feature requirements. Manufacturers might disagree about the necessity or usefulness of this or that feature, but omitting it would remove them from the market.
That said, WinCE isn't quite there yet. Neither are the devices quite as usable as Palms, nor do they have satisfactory battery life (except for the most dedicated users), nor has the Palm price point quite been reached (except maybe with monochrome devices). But in another iteration or two, they might have Palm beat.
Random observations from a Palm user (Score:3)
The ARM has a number of advantages over the Dragonball/68k line. One of which is that it is designed to be used in battery powered devices such as the Palm and the GameBoy Advance. The current Palms run between 16-33mhz. You can even overclock them (in software!) to run faster. The ARM chip in the Palm should be running at 200mhz.
Why such a jump? Well, there are a couple of reasons:
- 68k emulation. To run the old dragonball apps, you'll need to emulate a 68k. I'm going to guess here, and say that instead of using something like POSE running under a new OS, they will instead go the same route Apple did. The core OS will be written in ARM, and the 68k code when calling a trap, will run code natively on the ARM. i.e, OS routines will run at full speed.
- Multimedia. I don't think that the Palm will be ready to run very much in the line of movies, but MP3 playback becomes very practical. Along with other things such as dictation, telephony, etc, etc. The extra boost of speed will definetly help here.
- OS functions. I currently have a Visor Deluxe, with about 800k free. And the thing is slow at times. If I go to check info, delete an app, whatever, it takes 10-15 seconds just to get the list. After that, it's cached so it appears instantly, but the initial time it's slow. And once another app is started, the cache is gone. In addition, the Find function isn't exactly the fastest thing in the world. The extra speed will help here.
As far as the PalmOS goes, I think that the ARM version will be an evolution of the current version. I'm sure we'll see Palm push different screen sizes, we already have some variations on the market now (Sony's Clie - 320x320, for one). 160x160 will probally become the minimum size.
I think another thing that will happen is that Palm tosses out the current kernel they use, and use another kernel that they can actually expose to the developer. This will allow things like MP3 playback to continue in the background while other applications continue to run -- a kernel thread would handle it. I don't see Palm getting rid of the single application running scheme -- it just works so well, and prevents things like out-of-memory errors from occuring because you have 20 programs open (WinCE/PocketPC).
Palm knows what they need to do. I think they want to make the transition to ARM as seemless as can be. This means making source code compatible (as much as possible) between the Dragonball and ARM version. If programming an ARM version of the Palm is completely different than the 68k version, developers may just get up and move to WinCE.
On the other hand, I would imagine that most developers could write 68k version and allow the emulation to handle running it under the ARM. For most apps, you don't need the power of the ARM. And on the ARM, those apps would benefit from the faster CPU (for OS functions).
Palm has a lot of ex-Apple employees (or at least they did
This is going to be an exciting time for both Palm users and developers. I personally can't wait until I can buy a ARM based Palm of the shelf at the local computer store.
Linux??? (Score:2)
Let's see... they would gain control over their destiny and stop paying licensing fees... because they would no longer be using their own OS??? Forgive me, but I fail to comprehend the logic here.
Re:Strengths == Weaknesses (Score:2)
It's funny...so many people around here are yapping about a Hacker Ethic, making things work for the sheer joy of doing so...yet when a company like Palm tries to upgrade their hardware, we're supposed to hate 'em because some app developers might have to do some work. With Palm's track record, it'll be a TRIVIAL amount of work, with ENORMOUS dividends. This is bad...why?
Somebody draw me a diagram.
Re:the world of incompatibility (Score:4)
This can be done, and done well. I just hope they don't spank their battery life (PalmOS's single hugest advantage) moving to this gee-whiz new processor.
Re:One chance for glory (Score:2)
http://www.kadak.com/html/kdkp1400.htm
AMX is a real-time OS that's available for x86 and many CPUs common in embedded applications.
AMX is royalty free (if distributed in executable form (ie compiled)).
So Palm didn't write everything on the Palm, specifically not the hardest bit, the realtime elements. Palm OS deals with the resource allocation and UI issues, leaving task scheduling and (if they go to ARM) memory protection issues for the AMX segment.
IMHO, it was a very smart move. AMX is incredibly stable, very low overhead, and abstracts a lot of the annoying hardware issues, making it easier to port Palm to a new CPU (AMX already supports ARM, and has for quite a while.)
Don't forget Gameboy advance! (Score:2)
I think it's a more apropriate comparison. You get added benifit for old games. Two alternating screen-sizes to try and enhance the old size (wide screen) or play old games at original resolution. Everything from what I have seen of it works quite well.
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Would you like a Python based alternative to PHP/ASP/JSP?
Re:the world of incompatibility (Score:2)
Need for speed? (Score:3)
This is an interesting, and mostly welcome development. I could argue that a palmtop platform really doesn't need to be terribly fast, since most people simply use them for keeping up with contacts and maintaining schedules, rather than watching video and streaming MP3s wirelessly...
What has me worried is this:
200MHz is a lot. 1GHz is utterly ridiculous. The biggest concern with having faster chips is reducing battery life. Most, if not all, WinCE devices have a max battery life in the hours. Granted, most such devices have colour screens, but it would be foolish to say the faster chips doesn't play a part in it. Even Palms are using more power nowadays. A year ago, it was common for a Palm (say IIIxe) to last a month or more on one set of batteries. Right now, I'm averaging 6 weeks between replacement, which is terrific. The newer m500 models are touted as lasting up to two weeks. That's nice, yes, but a disturbing fact of life is becoming increasingly obvious and disruptive: more features require more power and drain more energy.
Do we need the extra abilities? As I see it, we'll be losing sight of the original goal of a palmtop. Instead, what is now occurring is that the personal agenda of a year ago is being replaced with ever more powerful be-everything devices.
This has me worried. Perhaps my fears are misplaced?
Re:More difficult for Handspring (Score:2)
That's why Motorola came out with a new DragonBall with an ARM in it.
Re:The obvious question: (Score:2)
I know very few people who have any desire to use their palms/visors as anything but a Filofax that can be easily shared and backed up. Those people are uninterested in sacrificing battery life for wacky features that don't work and that they don't need.
Boss of nothin. Big deal.
Son, go get daddy's hard plastic eyes.
oh no! (Score:2)
PocketPC Palm Emulator... (Score:2)
- - - - -
Apple transition (Score:2)
The 68K --> PowerPC transition fragmented the Mac market. The first PowerMacs wouldn't run legacy software even as fast as the Quadras that had been out for some months, and Apple was bringing out faster Quadras. However, if you bought a Quadra, you knew you were buying a dead end. Result: many Mac users transitioned to Windows, where there was a clear upward path. That setback hurt the Mac by robbing it of critical mass.
IF Palm is smart, IF they make sure the StrongArm based Palms will run all older software as fast or faster than the current crop of Palms, IF they make sure users know they will not be buying a dead-end product, they can benefit from this. If they don't learn from Apple's mistakes, they will fragment their market at exactly the wrong time, and WinCE and Linux will claim their spots.
True, I wouldn't need a PDA to play movies, but having one that could play MP3 or Ogg files would eliminate once gadget I want to carry.
And as a side note: The DTMF generation trick isn't as useful as you might think: between having to dial access codes (or not), area codes (or not), extensions (or not), you have to have a fairly complex UI to select the options. Plus, since the PDA cannot listen for the call progress tones, it cannot know when to send the next burst - it has to just wait. I know, I have a watch that does DTMF.
Re:One chance for glory (Score:2)
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The Real Limitations - Not CPU, though it helps (Score:4)
Memory is important, and it's pretty close to free. Selling a 2MB machine is tacky enough if you're doing it to get people to buy the overpriced memory expansion card, but there's simply no excuse for doing so on a non-expandable machine just to create product differentiation, or to bait&switch people into buying the much more expensive model just to get $6 more RAM. For many applications it doesn't matter, but if you want people do buy the box for things beyond the basics - ebooks, or industry-specific applications that require more data, or reading some real fraction of their email (especially using the overpriced radio link), you need more memory, sometimes lots more. Even if the future Palms don't play MP3s, storing compressed speech uses about 1MB per 20 minutes, so it helps to have more memory.
Better Screens - the Psion 3a has 480x160 mono, and lasts about as long on batteries as the Palm; the WinCE and iPaQ machines really do have good-looking screens, more readable as well as flashy, but the battery life is too short for practicality.
Audio, especially speech recognition - that does need more horsepower, though some of it can be done with ASICs like cell-phone voice compression instead of the CPU if that makes sense. Microsoft is going after the MP3-player / Video Game / TV set in your pocket market, but for business users and other people who want organizers rather than toys, the two obvious directions to go are cellphone capability and speech recognition interfaces to the box, and those may be CPU burners.
SDK builds processors? (Score:4)
Man, thats some SDK. Why don't my SDKs do that?
Re:Slipping on banana peels (Score:2)
I've owned 3 palm units going ALL the way back to the *US ROBOTICS PILOT 1000* and *the* most usefull program on the palm is the birthdate reminder app (which is gpl btw) (IMHO)
Your onto palms problem -- theres no killer app for the palm! they need this cpu power to develope a killer app like a office compatible suite.
Re:More difficult for Handspring (Score:2)
steveha
One chance for glory (Score:4)
Apple showed it can be done. Apple really did a great job of smoothly transitioning their users over to the PowerPC.
As long as they are doing this, Palm needs to break out of the 160x160 display trap. I'm sure they are eager to do it. All the current Palm apps, when running under emulation, can have a 160x160 box to run in, but new software can have more room. And, Palm needs to release two different reference designs, with different screen sizes, just to make people get serious about testing their apps with different screen sizes.
I'd be thrilled if they used this as an opportunity to transition from PalmOS to Linux, with the emulator running PalmOS of course. If they did a good job on the SDK, people should be able to recompile PalmOS apps to run under the new Linux. I don't have a feel for how likely this is, but it would give Palm more control over their destiny, and save them paying licensing fees.
They should make sure the new Palm can play DTMF tones through its speaker; people have been crying for this since the first Palm. Look up a phone number, hold the Palm next to the phone, and click on "Dial" and the Palm makes DTMF tones and dials for you. I'd like that.
If they make it rock-solid reliable, and give it really long battery life, this transition could be a very good thing. Oh, and they need to keep making DragonBall Palms for a while: don't make people feel they are being forced at gunpoint to switch.
steveha
More difficult for Handspring (Score:4)
So, does Handspring stick with the DragonBall? Or do they try to emulate the Springboard bus using the ARM? Or do they do Springboard 2.0 using the ARM bus? Or can they do a new bus that isn't so tightly coupled to the CPU's bus? (How about making the plug-and-play use some sort of portable bytecode?)
By the way, I hope Handspring will adopt the "universal connector" idea Palm introduced with their latest devices. Having both a serial port and a USB port is a nice thing. Having both of them plus a Springboard would be even better.
steveha
(*Grin*) (Score:2)
New DragonBall (Score:2)
Re:Need for speed? (Score:3)
200MHz is a lot. 1GHz is utterly ridiculous. The biggest concern with having faster chips is reducing battery life. Most, if not all, WinCE devices have a max battery life in the hours. Granted, most such devices have colour screens, but it would be foolish to say the faster chips doesn't play a part in it.
The Motorola MC68328 DragonBall microprocessor uses about 55mW. The power consumption for a modern colour LCD screen is about 25mW. So CPU power usage is an important factor in battery life. There is a paper on power consumption which is worth a read [berkeley.edu] which shows that power consumption for the Palm Pro 16MHz uses between 26mW (sleeping) and 160mW for intensive tasks.
Now the ARM family has been designed for high MIPS/Watt ratios. Looking at the ARM10 tech specs [arm.com] the ARM chip uses 275mW when running, and can drop down to less than 5mW when idling, and in sleep mode uses 0mW with the option for fast wake up.
So what does this mean for the average Palm user? If the CPU goes to sleep in between uses, and idle mode is invoked during any period of inactivity, the new Palms should maintain good battery life while being a lot snappier to use. To me, it looks like you should get the same sort of battery life if you use it for the same sort of tasks. If you want to play MP3's all day long, then your Palm will be chewing around 350mW out of the batteries. Given that a single AAA battery gives roughly 1000mAH (milliAmp Hours) so that would imply a pair of AAAs would give you about 8 hours of continuous 100% CPU usage.
Cheers,
Toby Haynes
Re:oh no! (Score:3)
Now?
Palm -needs- to do this... (Score:2)
I look at my Palm IIIc that I got just this past February for $329, and wonder what I really did get for my money. Having waited just a few months, I could have gotten an m505 with the extra money saved. Though if I were going to do that, and spend five hundred dollars or so, why not get a WinCE device? Expandable memory using more common components than the new stuff in a 500/505, and with a variety of vendors to choose from.
The basic reason Palm needs to make this change, is because simple and reliable isn't impressive. Those of us who -do- know better, are rare indeed. I was a longtime PC fanatic, until I saw a recent iBook, and how well it handily trashed my IBM ThinkPad for reliability. I may be glad I got my IIIc when I did, but I do still feel badly about the fact people with less knowledge get better toys.
I shouldn't rant when I'm tired. Damn this heat.
Palm needs to deliver stability, AND better toys and gimmicks. I just hope they pull it off.
Re:the world of incompatibility (Score:2)
Re:On schedule (Score:2)
I think that's wildly optimistic. My Palm III isn't nearly as fast as an '030 based computer like a Mac SE/30.
According to this page [palmclub.nl], the original Palm was a 16MHz Dragonball. If true, performance isn't scaling with clock speed. A Mac SE/30 feels far more than twice as fast as an older Palm.
Re: Yawn .. but what about ... (Score:2)
I once built an optical hub that would let 5 Mac laptops with IR all "see" each other. All you had to do was point each IR eye at the hub... which was a drinking glass.
Re:On schedule (Score:2)
I know you can't do a totally scientific test, but all my personal experience tells me that there is no WAY a Palm has as much zap as an '030-based computer.
Opening a big fat text document is the example that comes to mind. When I read a big page in AvantGo, it takes a lot longer to appear than a similarly-sized MacWrite doc took to open.
The Mac could also do games a heck of a lot more quickly than the Palm. That old Mac Star Wars game was cool, but all the action games I have tried on my Palm III are glacial in comparison. As in, don't bother playing them.
Re:More CPU power can be useful for palm (Score:4)
Then one day, the Mac people and the Unix people woke up and figured that the PC could do almost exactly everything their specialized and more expensive systems could do.
It's the same thing in the handheld world, turned on it's head. Eventually WinCE-type handheld computers will have all the battery life, cost, and 'filofax' features of the Palm. BUT, if Palm gets the MPEG and Quake and Spreadsheet 'features' (which means a fast CPU and something resembling a real OS) before then without losing it's primary advantages, it will probably hold it's dominant marketshare lead forever.
This has been kicking around for a while. (Score:3)
This brings along great opportunities for Linux. For example, the Rebel.Com NetWinder kernel could fairly easily be modified to run on this Palm system, with full X, etc. The news could impact the Palm and Linux even more than it did on the iPaq.
The ARM is a greatly versatile, very low power RISC chip. I'm happy they are finally pursuing this. Nokia is supposed to also take advantage of this in accordance with their deal with Palm to use the PalmOS. This is why the PalmOS isn't on Nokia phones yet, they are waiting for the ARM version...
This will be cool on two fronts.
They are going to be kicking themselves... (Score:3)
"That's why they are revising their platform--to grow room for the future." A standard idea, but I for one, do not want streaming multimedia and MP3s on my handheld. My Palm m105 does exactly what I need it to do. If I want to watch a movie on a plane, $4 headphones from the stewardess or a laptop w/DVD will do the trick. If I want to read a book, I'll spend $6 and get a paperback from the store or check out one from a library. No batteries, backlighting, or internet connection needed.
The Palms were designed to replace the paper organizer that contained our calendars, to do lists, addresses, etc. Last I checked, my paper dayplanner did not play MP3s. It doesn't need to. My Palm doesn't play MP3s either. It doesn't need to. Unfortunately, too many people forget about this and want the latest and greatest. Maybe when they start burning holes in suits because they run so hot, people will realize that the current Palm line does more than they need it to.
Re:The obvious question: (Score:2)
The ability to control my Oracle instances, lauch a terminal session into a server and use real apps is a big deal, and is something that PalmPilots cannot do.
recompiling for new OS ver is old hat (Score:2)
apps that worked in 2.x broke for 3. Apps that worked in 3 were broken for 3.3 and 3.5. Apps that worked great were recoded for the higher quality grayscale screens, and then refused to work on earlier Palm IIIs.
Apps that worked great on the new 16 shade grayscale screens got recoded for color devices.
Everything got altered to work on Handsprings.
In other words,
making changes to existing application code is nothing new to Palm developers.
A host is a host from coast to coast, but no one uses a host that's close
Re:Palm -needs- to do this... (Score:2)
You'd also have SecureDigital cards, and who wants cards with crappy content protection built in?
go get yerself a prism, or stick with the IIIc.
A host is a host from coast to coast, but no one uses a host that's close
the world of incompatibility (Score:2)
Re:The obvious question: (Score:2)
Net pilot ? (Score:2)
--
Re:Need for speed (Score:2)
Mine doesn't need to be faster, but I reckon I could use a faster crosscompiler (I know, I know, here's a nickel to upgrade my old linux box).
What I want to know is (and I don't know bo diddly about ARM technology, except that it reminds me of Gil the ARM, so these are probably moronic questions)...
- how big will the heap be next year, and
- will I still have to mess around with these blasted code segments?
Re:But it still doesn't run Linux like the VR3 doe (Score:2)
I'm confused. I already program for my Palm in the environment I know and love: emacs+gcc+gdb on a linux desktop.
Re:recompiling for new OS ver is old hat (Score:2)
Is this the right direction for Palm? (Score:2)
In the past, the stability, battery life, and simplicity have been hallmarks of their device, and brought them success.
If there is now enough "oomph" to decode MP3, play video, etc, will Palm stray from their ease of use?
Re:Strengths == Weaknesses (Score:2)
I'm no programmer though, maybe someone else can speculate. But with ARM in the 200-300 mhz range, it seems like you could easily emulate all the old stuff.
Re:Strike A New POSE (Score:2)
Re:Need for speed? (Score:2)
Strike A New POSE (Score:4)
The shift to ARM will mean of course incompatible binaries for all those vendor-supplied and open-source projects. Generally not too big a deal since there are lots of tools for ARM (gcc supports cross-compiling to ARM of course).
But, perhaps more interestingly, a new version of POSE [palmos.com] is required. Development of the original POSE (nee CoPilot [hewgill.com]) is a fascinating story of reverse-engineering, ingenuity, and personal persistence of Greg Hewgill. Do a Google [google.com] search for 13hewgil.pdf for an interesting account.
Let's hope Palm publishes the data sheet for the chip they're using -- unlike the originally secret Dragonball -- so POSE can be implemented for the new architecture without too much headache.
Maybe they should have considered... (Score:5)
"Oh sirs, very tragic story of microprocessor that drown in spring one thousand, two hundred year ago!"
Okay, enough with the stupid anime jokes already.
Need for speed (Score:4)
It essentially replaces my organizer, which was, as far as I can tell, it's intended purpose.
Why does it need to get faster. More memory I understand, color and backlighting and better batteries also, but are people really feeling the lag when looking up phone numbers or appointments?
How about making the things cheaper? I don't want a palm to replace a computer... if I did, I'd buy an iPaq (and put linux on it). I want it to take care of scheduling, take notes and remember phone numbers.
...oh, and I guess a few simple games never hurt anybody.
What I want to know is, why does my palm really need to be faster?
Re:Need for speed? (Score:2)
Depends on what you use them for. You are correct that the Palm battery life is, in general, lightyears ahead.
I'll give you my experience. I've got the iPaq 3650 with WinCE 3.0 and by taking certain measures (e.g. backlight set to low, power off settings after 3 minutes max etc), I can always get a "full" day of (constant use) battery life out of the device (games, music) whatever and not have to worry about it.
However, I do have to remember to put it on the cradle *every night* to re-charge. "That's crap!" you might say. Well it is not much of an issue for me.
Would I like to have my battery life last longer? Of course. I'd like it to last all year if I could. However as long as I can be around a power outlet when I travel, it is not a problem having effectively 15 or so hours life.
And why not put 1GHz processors in something the size of a palm device. Heat/power problems have been overcome before. If you can *effectively* have the processing power of your desktop in your pocket device then surely you can see some nice possibilities there (entertainment wise at least).
For example, the LA Lakers (nba) had a promotion where people, during the game, could have real time multimedia, statistics etc "streamed" to their Pocket PC (sorry can't find the link). Things like processing MPEG streams (say) on the fly would require some significant MHz power in the pocket device to be usable.
A slightly different version of the story (Score:3)
A sequal to the DragonBall VZ, the Super VZ doubles clockspeed to 66MHz and adds on chip support for USB 2.0, on-chip SRAM cache , DMA memory transfers, and a frame buffer to speed up video. Its 0.18-micron shrink (down from 0.25-micron) should offer a two-to four-fold increase in speed and drink less power compared to the fastest Palm procs available today. The Super VZ will debut alongside the DragonBall MX1, which will be based on ARM technology and run at 200MHz.
Re:Palm and Apple???????? (Score:2)
But, gee, in nine months the Palm will have an ARM CPU and get to the point that the Messagepad was seven years ago!
Re:You mean, they'll cancel the current line? (Score:2)
But, I found the Messagepad easy enough to use, and had no problems syncing with my PC. It wasn't as simple as the idiot-proof Palm hot-sync cradle (which is a pretty slick innovation) but it still worked.
I think what really killed the Newton family was that they got bigger and more expensive, instead of smaller and cheaper. But I submit that there would be no Palm if it hadn't been for the Newton, if for no other reason that the Newton was where Graffiti (and Palm) got their start.
Re:This has been kicking around for a while. (Score:2)
What I want from my future Palm (Score:2)
I own a PalmIIIx (black&white display). I'm very happy with it.
I would replace it for a better palm if the new version would be:
thinner
lighter
with better battery life
can do simple wireless operation (with my cell phone for example)
cheaper
What I don't need it to have:
color display
3D surround sound playing MP3s
T1-speed internet connection
voice recognition (not with the current frustrating technology)
voice recorder
word processor/spreadsheet/presentation manager or other office related software (which I can use at the office).
I want an easy to use organizer that will make my life easier.
-Omer
Re:But it still doesn't run Linux like the VR3 doe (Score:2)
I think the point is not programming ON your PDA, but programming FOR your PDA in the environment we all know and love.
No more Dragonball!? (Score:3)
Oh great! Now how is Goku going to buy gohan for Gohan?
Those heartless bastards.
re: Yawn .. but what about ... (Score:2)
Yeah, but you'd better get those IR ports lined up just right...
Sorry, I couldn't resist...