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Hardware

Hardware Reviews Online 75

Posted by Hemos from the interesting-rant dept.
A reader writes "The Tech Report has an article up discussing a new hardware site. What makes this one special? Well, to paraphrase Die Hard, Ziff-Davis has the "How to build a hardware site" playbook, and they're running it step by step. According to sources cited in the article, this is an ominous development for the future of objective hardware reviews online."
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Hardware Reviews Online More

Hardware Reviews Online

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  • You forgot the other major steps..
    - search news groups for complaints,issues about a vendor..
    - check linux/freebsd support, I follow this even when buying hardware for windows, there are two reasons
    1) a piece of kit that its makers are prepared to allow opensource developers look at, implys a confidence that it will survive close technical scrutiny, any which doesn't implys there is something dodgy below the surface.
    2) I have been caught buying cheap devices that weren't even support on an upgrade from 95-98.. generally any kit that has linux support, tends to mean it has significant market share that microsoft will also support it.

  • What exactly is a "Market Leader"? How do you know if your purchase is profitable if you don't understand the market? How can you say that Dell, Gateway, etc. don't offload crap to their purchasers just because they buy and sell in large volume?

    I once bought a Gateway because someone gave me this same reasoning about how they have testing labs, compatability tests, "market leader", etc. The machine never ran well and the support was crap. The internal parts were low quality and it was a pain to deal with and it was overpriced. Who says that Dell, Gateway, etc. don't unload crap? If the market is people who are unaware of technology and want certain criteria Dell, Gateway, etc. are driven by profit and they will feel no remorse about unloading garbage if that is what the market wants. These companies are driven by profit and they will do anything to achieve profitability including selling "inferior" goods. Does this sound like Microsoft? Yes, because they operate on simmilar economic principles. Other wise consumers I have met, who want computers, know this and are disuaded from buying stuff from Dell, Gateway, etc. just because they have really no idea what the product is and realize they are probably going to get "inferior" group product and most don't bother or get excited about technology they don't understand.

    So I haven't bought a computer from a major manufacturer in years. I needed a Zip drive yesterday and I just walked in to a shop that serves OEM parts, popped it in machine and it worked flawlessly. I have heard horror stories from people trying to "upgrade" the machines from professional system builders. I think AnandTech and Tom's Hardware, and other review sites are here to stay. There overhead is not that high. They don't have a 100 person staff and all sorts of other corporate bullshit. People who do want to hear reviews are not going buy this Extreme Tech garbage. If AnandTech and TH are profitable now they will be around in the future. Extreme Tech should maybe take a part of the 14 year old learning about computers who reads stock PC magazines or people who like to pretend like they understand computers.

  • Re:Biased sites insult our intelligence. (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Sadly, you're probably going to be modded down for that comment. The truth hurts - but in fact the only difference between a site run by Andover and one run by Ziff Davis is that ZD is making money.

  • OMG, This is SHOCKING (Score:5)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 12, 2001 @08:33PM (#156203)
    Thanks for pointing out this huge news, this should really be on the cover of the New York Times tomorrow. The fact that it won't proves that the government is run by an evil Microsoft conspiracy.

    Ziff-Davis started a hardware site?? And the site is worth reading?? HOW DARE THEY!! This is unfair, someone call the DOJ. Just think about all the poor independant hardware reviewers who will be put out of business. Tom Papst will have to go on welfare and you'll probably see Anand out giving blow jobs on the street tomorrow. Everyone should email their congressman and demand that Ziff-Davis be split into three companies right away before they become the next Microsoft.
  • Yep, NN4.7 user -- on a Pentium 133 (which is the real culprit)... I'm more sensitive than most regarding poorly coded HTML.

  • I hope Extreme Tech continues the tradition ... (Score:5)

    by rho ( 6063 ) on Tuesday June 12, 2001 @08:56PM (#156205) Journal

    ... of the "enthusiast" hardware sites' HTML 'skillz'. You know, the 8-deep nested tables filled with 1-pixel transparent GIFs, rounded corners on sidebar titles (a la Slashdot), and the whole slow-loading mess surrounded by one big-ass <TABLE>, all kept from our eager eyes by the slow-ass banner ad server.

  • Techies have such HUGE egos!

    Time and again, I see tech-savvy folk on Slashdot dismiss anything that they figure techies will know is B.S.

    They ignore that they ain't the bosses!

    Maybe having control over a network does something to these techies ("I have the power! Muahaha!")

    Fact is, guys, *you* don't make the most important decisions.

    Your CEO, manager, or boss is the one who really makes the decision. He might be deciding, at this time, to *let* you make the decisions... but that can be changed anytime.

    ZDNet, Microsoft, and the like target your boss.

    If ZD handles this correctly, your boss will take control of the purchasing decisions, and all your high-falutin' techie knowledge ain't gonna change his mind.

    Just as with the MS anti-linux-memes (where you need to start planting anti-MS/pro-linux memes in his head), you need to make your boss aware that there are better, more unbiased sites for his hardware/software review news.

    Yes, if you wish to retain the control you're allowed to have, you need to babysit your boss. Sad, but true.


    --
  • they spend millions constructing a Wal-mart in a town so feeble that the bulk of its economy falls when the competing mom and pops go out of business. Besides the fact that this runs against economic wisdom, namely that their increased efficiency would ultimately BENEFIT the local economy [even in the short run, a mom and pop is but a drop in the bucket of the markets that they invest in], it simply does not make financial sense to invest in such a town. Their margins are not that high and the cash outlays are too great for them to even break even in the situation that you suggest.

    Wal-mart may not be perfect, but the fact of the matter is that Wal-mart serves these towns better than the competition. The proof is in the pudding, people vote with their feet. They may like a few unique goods and services that only the mom and pop can provide, but they do not enjoy it enough to effectively subsidize them by paying consistently higher prices. Thus, Wal-mart continues to thrive, while many mom and pops dwindle away.
  • It's their strategy
    No, it is not their strategy. Do you have any proof other than mere accusations? You never even bothered to explain how such an investment could possibly return a profit. If they spend a couple million building a Wal-mart in a small town, it will take a couple years to re-coup that investment. If the town economy actually (not that it would) goes South within those first couple years, they lose money. Plain and simple.

    The support services (doctors, lawyers, and so on) will follow when the business dries up. If too many people leave, the town dies, end of story.
    Again, you're misguided. Neither Wal-mart nor the mom and pop retail stores are capable of driving a local economy. Towns need a more substantial industry, like agriculture, manufacturing, etc. Where do you think all the money comes from?

    Furthermore, Wal-mart employs people too. They also, clearly, still largely provide the same services. Just because Wal-mart now owns the majority of the retail operations in town does not mean the economy goes "poof".

    Bad money drives out good. If you drop a megastore into a small town where most businesses, the mom and pops (which usually provide better service) go under. Since these people can't easily relocate within town, they leave. The support services (doctors, lawyers, and so on) will follow when the business dries up. If too many people leave, the town dies, end of story.
    No, this is not the end of the story. You neglected the part where thousands of customers REPEATEDLY shop at Wal-mart, by choice, despite the fact that the "better" mom and pops exist. You suppose this is mind control or something. It comes down to the fact that most consumers would rather have more variety, cheaper, and faster, then what the mom and pops offer (better service in some ways, but not in many ways).

    I do not shop at WalMart.
    Nor do I, that is your right. But that does not mean that you should attempt to stifle free trade in favor of protectionist policies.

  • Confusion (Score:3)

    by sharkey ( 16670 ) on Wednesday June 13, 2001 @03:43AM (#156209)
    I took a look at the Extreme Tech site, and was left a bit confused. How am I supposed to vote in an online poll if I can't vote for CowboyNeal?

    --
  • Personally it was E&CE429 - Computer Architecture. Covered high points of MIPS, Sparc, Pentium, Alpha architecture

    Actually in reality you pick up most of the knowledge on the job. I've designed in SDR SDRAM into some of my designs; read data sheets on DDR SDRAM.

    Bottom line: this is really obscure knowledge that very few people in the world really understand... and in this case I have to agree with the poster at the root of this thread: A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. There are so many things that affect performance in interconnected ways that even as a hardware designer it's difficult to get to the root. Only people who design stuff like motherboards and the CPUs could really tell you what's going on.
  • If ZD handles the site correctly, and doesn't bias the reviews, then it's one more useful resource. If they do a lousy job and/or are not objective in their reports, then techies will avoid their site in droves.

    ZD will target it to the average user and the corporate world, not techies. They will then add in their usual bias (How much advertising were you booking? Oh, you want the Editors Choice Package...)

    It's not as if there is such a limited market for hardware review sites that one more entry into the field will kill off the weaker players.... is it?

    Wanted: Serious hardware reviewer to write articles for mainstream hardware review site. Pay's great, steady work, JOLT Cola on tap. Apply here... How long until Joey Independent (read starving) hardware reviewer folds his site and moves to the big time. Pretty soon, no more independent hardware review sites.
  • You raise some interesting points about publication outfits that are owned by technology companies. Reporting on a product sector that your parent company is in generates a conflict of interest.

    I myself do not worry about it for a couple of reasons.

    1. My personal ethics keep me from owning stock in technology companies.

    2. CMP has never offered me stock options, and as far as I know has no plans to.

    3. CMP is actually owned by a large British publishing company, United News and Media, thus avoiding any conflict of interest with technology companies.

    It is the individual journalist's responsibility to avoid even the appearance of impropriety.

    Ultimately, every journalist must make the decision: Do I do the right thing? I do and I hope and encourage all other technology journalists to do the same.

    Good comments, and an interesting discussion on these topics....

    Steven J. Schuchart Jr.

  • Technical Writers, Big and Small: Not Shills (Score:4)

    by Gedvondur ( 40666 ) on Wednesday June 13, 2001 @06:37AM (#156213)
    This is just paranoia. I work for a large publishing company, CMP Media. I am a technical writer on staff for Network Computing. We are a pretty good-sized publishing company. Do you people REALLY think that because we have been sucessful we cannot be objective. Does Slashdot's association with VALINUX tilt their coverage? I don't think so. It is the same for print publications.

    In my job I have zero contact with our sales area. There is a deliberate separation between sales and editorial. We in editorial like it that way. You would be amazed at how much editorial control we writers really have. There is no "corporate censor" or anything else like that. We have never altered or prevented an article from running in the publication in the interest of advertising. Period.

    Small independent hardware sites are actually more vulnerable to advertising and "free gift" pressures. Don't get me wrong, I love most of the indy sites. I have been reading Toms Hardware, AnandTech, and Ars for years. But most of these sites have been started out of the goodness of someone's heart, not out of the deepness of their pocketbook. If my publishing company loses an advertising account, I don't even know about it. If any indy loses advertising, it hits him right in the pocket book.

    I will admit that there are some dodgy publications out there. There are some dodgy indy sites too. Those of us who do this kind of technical writing for a large corporation are honest. When I write, I write for our reader. Please understand that the majority of technology journalists, big or small, are honest guys, doing their best. The paranoia shown by some here is simply unjustified.

    Steven J. Schuchart Jr.
  • Note that CNet == ZDNet now. They bought them last year.
  • ...but it's not worth the .00005% decrease in my lifespan...


    Assuming you live to the ripe old age of 80, that would be a decrease of 21 minutes. I think you may have lost that much time reading and responding to this thread!

  • Yet Another Hypocritical Slashdot Headline.

    They may not care for this kind of "corporate" news site, but they don't seem to have a problem accepting their ad dollars [usouthal.edu]. Gotta love the way Slashdot puts the smack down with one hand while happily accepting the greenbacks with the other. You're just so much better than these other guys, riiiiiiight.

    Corporate may not be so bad anyway. Who knows, maybe Slashdot could go [even more] corporate and it would pay for some spell / fact checkers. Ok that's asking too much, this is an "amateur" site. Riiiight. *wink wink*

  • I, for one, will be staying with the "amateur" sites (though it's hard to call Anandtech and Toms "amature" given the level of banner ads).

    Why? Because ZD's site design gives me a headache. I really hate how it's designed. I know that Anandtech and Toms might not be the easiest to navigate, but I have gotten used to them: to their style and to their layout. ZD carries their own luggage into this venture, and it's luggage I don't wish to deal with. C|net used to be cool too, but I stopped using them a long time ago...

  • But the average user or corporate drone will as easily swollow the tripe that the tech firms' marketing people spew as a "fake" independent hardware site. If they really care, they ask a techie, who will tell them what is good and what isn't.

    Hardware sites don't exist in a vacuum. The ones I refer to, I not only trust because of the quality of their content, but because of a long term trust they have built up by providing accurate information. If a new site has a lot info flies in the face of my experience, or the experience of people I know, or a widely held consensus among both hardware sites and other computer geeks on the internet, it will lose reputation, and I will likely never trust it again.

    As for people who don't have the wide range of experience I and others do, try to do internet research on their own, yet are unable to tell the difference between glitter and content... Fuck 'em. They should learn to read through bullshit,
    or ask someone for help.

    An interesting tangent: It would be fun and interesting to study trust relationships on the internet. In the "traditional media", credibility is a function of money. The barriers to entry are high--it isn't cheap to run a newspaper or a TV station--and people assume that anyone putting that kind of money into something is credible. On the interent, anyone can put up a website with glitz and glamour, and it seems that credibility must be earned over time. This probably contributed to the failure of many dot coms that tried to go for the "big internet debut" approach.
  • I took a look at Extreme Hardware, which was the site that they talked about, when looking at some of the reviews, especially the one about motherboards, I quickly realized how much non-sensical yammering was actually in the article. The articles are well thought out and put together, but it is really hard to get at the die hard facts. And to be honest, I think that is what people really want. Being able to yammer on about useless filler is something for cocktail parties and suit & tie affairs, not for the hardware community. Reviews are mostly about benchmarking anyways, you want to see this chip beat that chip, or how much improvement over previous generations of it has actually occured. I guess that was really the point, but perhaps they should call themselves InDepthTech...maybe write a few text books...
  • Don't forget... ZD is owned in part by Vulcan Ventures,
    - which is owned by Paul Allen,
    - who was a part of Microsoft
    - and made his money off of code
    - programmed by children in Pakistan
    - forced to listen to Kathy Lee Gifford.

    It's eeeeevil..... :-)

    Crash
  • there is one thing you are forgetting. Say some hardware gets a bad review, so the compony doesn't give them any more stuff, now the site will not be able to compare that product with other similar products. In comes random customer X, is X more likely to buy the hardware that wasn't reviewed (if (s)he actually finds it exists from some other site) or go for one that was heavily benchmarked, i recently ordered all the parts for a new comp, what do you think i did. The one catch to this is that, if the site isn't big, the comp doesn't care, but places like Tom's are very important to hardware producers.
  • But does anyone out there really know what DDR memory is ?

    DDR ram is double the rate of SDRAM because it uses not onlt the rising part of the clock, but the falling part too. Where did i learn this? i learned it from Hardware sites. Your right that many sites arn't really qualified to fully test hardware, but, who are you? you are an end user. How are they? End users that can compare model X to other models. These people cant tell you all the complexities that went into making the devise, but they can tell you the benchmarks it got while running Quake 3 1600x1200 32bit, and really, what is more important to you?
    I just ordered all the parts for my new computer i'm going to build, how did i descide to choose everything? i started off with sharkyextreme that gave me a general guide, i went to hardocp and tom's hardware for more info and for comparisons of different products, which i then bought from pricewatch. Conclusion: I am getting an OUTRAGOUSLY good system for ~$1300, and i owe it all to the sites that you dismiss as pointless.
  • I have a healthy respect for the intelligence of the average geek, our at least their ability to smell out a shill site.

    If ZD handles the site correctly, and doesn't bias the reviews, then it's one more useful resource. If they do a lousy job and/or are not objective in their reports, then techies will avoid their site in droves.

    It's not as if there is such a limited market for hardware review sites that one more entry into the field will kill off the weaker players.... is it?

  • but when Tom's Hardware and Anandtech reviews of new products are a couple days (or weeks) behind this one (or one like it) which will you read first?

  • I'd like to be surprised ... but (Score:3)

    by OmegaDan ( 101255 ) on Tuesday June 12, 2001 @09:29PM (#156225) Homepage
    zdnet makes money not magazines ... they're simply moving to a potentially profitable sector ...

    \editoral : They must be hurting for cash, their magazines suck for the most part because they are all adds and microsoft praise -- and their internet site is ... stupid ... infact they really haven't been good since, they fired Penn Jillete in like 1995!

  • A hardware review site? What's next from the ZD monster? A News For Nerds discussion site? I say bring it on! Then we can send all the trolls, sporks and other ACs over there : )

    And maybe Michael too.

  • The disturbing thing is there are an inordinate number of users who would do just that. See how convenient the web is? I can learn about the best hardware and buy it on the same page! Oh, Boy! Wait a minute, this would never fly outside the online world. Go to a computer store and ask the sales 'consultant' what to buy, then he hands it to you and you fork over the green. There's an idea. Oh, and while you're at it, you might as well bend over and grab your ankles.
    Actually, most people (non-techies) *do* go to the store & ask what's the best thing, then buy it. My grandmother did that when she wanted a new PC (and to stop using me for tech support). She went to Gateway Country & talked to the sales ppl. I reviewed her purchase & while I felt they oversold her (p3-700 for websurfing & email, some scanning), the price wasn't horrendous & she's been extremely happy with it. Were the Gateway sales ppl biased? Without a doubt. Did she care? No.


    jred
    www.cautioninc.com [cautioninc.com]
  • I think you have addressed the knub of the issue more succinctley than the linked article even managed. The average Joe is not equipped to take on Tom's Hardware and doesn't want to be either. What they do want however is to feel that they can choose their own hardware to some degree. Someone has to handhold them through this process and the fear is that by adding yet another source of information to the megacorporations bows less informed information will be distributed to the masses. But at present the Anandtech's and Tomshardwares of this world are not really bringing the knowledge to the masses (though they have obviously advanced the knowledge of the savvy). It will be interesting to see what these sites ultimatley look like, adverts or tech-havens. I suspect these sites won't bother the /. crowd except when we have to dispute the FUD they have fed your brother-in-law who wants you to help him buy a computer. The odds are this is simply the unsurprising step of the computer magazines producing something a bit more techie in the less risky marketplace of the net then on paper. If they start to attach other sites...... then the war begins.
  • the 8-deep nested tables

    You know, those are problem ONLY if you are an unfortunate NN4.x user. For others an extra table means 'huge' 20-50 chars additional load. Hardly a big problem. How about trying Mozilla, Galeon, Konqueror or Opera (or IE or K-meleon if you use that alternative system).
    _________________________

  • "Homegrown", right. "overclockers.com" sends three cookies from ad_flow.com and seems to have some akamai content.
  • > A bit much, don't you think?

    Absolutely. After all, I am a registered charity, and so...

    ...no, wait. Actually, I'm not a registered charity!

    Ads pay money. Ads that pay no money, me not run. Me like money. Me run ads.

    Ug.

  • The business model... (Score:4)

    by Daniel Rutter ( 126873 ) <dan@dansdata.com> on Tuesday June 12, 2001 @09:41PM (#156232) Homepage
    ...for sites run by big media outfits is tricky.

    Big media outfits are congenitally incapable of doing anything in a small way, which means that although sites like ExtremeTech are sure to make a lot more money than sites like, say, mine (Dan's Data [dansdata.com]), they're going to have to spend a lot more for every dollar they make, and may not manage to break even. Not that I've seen their business plan, or anything. It just seems to be the way to bet.

    This could be a good moment for me to plug my own piece on the subject [dansdata.com], which was a column I wrote for AustralianIT.com.au (a Murdoch property; big media organisations don't come much bigger than News Limited...), after they told me that I and a large percentage of the rest of the Australian News Interactive staff were getting the sack. For some reason, they didn't want to publish it, so I published it myself :-).

    The Register's piece [theregister.co.uk] on ExtremeTech says the new site has a staff of 30. If that's accurate, then they've got themselves a big fat tab to cover just for salaries, let alone all of the multiplicitous overheads that big media organisations can't avoid.

    Dan's Data, on the other hand, has a staff of one and premises which also contain my bed (I know it's behind all of those motherboard boxes, somewhere). I'll betcha ten bucks I'll still be reviewing Flash memory gadgets [dansdata.com], CPU coolers [dansdata.com], really expensive video cameras [dansdata.com] and LED flashlights [dansdata.com] when ExtremeTech's, um, refocussed its core paradigm into, er, a more reprinting-Ziff-stuff-we-can-get-for-free, uh, dynamic.

  • I guess a while(TRUE) would have been more appropriate...

  • No such thing as "indy" HW sites (Score:5)

    by SClitheroe ( 132403 ) on Tuesday June 12, 2001 @08:41PM (#156234) Homepage
    Let's face it..the indy HW sites rely upon vendors providing them with samples of their goods to play with, benchmark, and generally drool over (as geeks tend to do with any new hardware). Sometimes, yes, you do see examples of an indy site getting pressured by a big name vendor to do a good review (was Nvidia the latest culprit? Can't remember...), but by and large, they are no better than a large network like CNet or ZDNet

    The simple fact of the matter is that the best so-called "indy" sites have an incestous and recursive relationship with the vendors, which goes like this:
    1) review cool hardware, get lots of readers
    2) get lots of readers, get more cool hardware for free to review
    3) get lots of banner revenue :)
    4) goto (2)

    I still find the best way to evaluate new hardware is to:
    1) wait at least 4 weeks before making your purchase
    2) read the "indy" sites :)
    3) check the newsgroups and see what the pioneers with the arrows in their backs have to say
    4) weed out the idiots on the newsgroups who couldn't get new hardware to work to save their lives
    5) start looking for the best prices
    6) never buy any hardware until the second driver revision.

  • zdnet, owned by c|net owned by Intel... Ever see a good review of an AMD system by ziff-davis? No? Well now you know why... Now... Tom Pabst cause the recall of your flagship product (1.13Ghz PIII)? Just take that thorn out of your side and provide all the lemming IT boys with a glossy commercial tech site. Some of you are surfing /. when you should be applying patches to your compromised IIS boxes. Same guys that think Microsoft and Intel are great and want to be spoon fed biased tech news fud.
  • Daniel, a pop-up add for credit cards?

    _3_ adds at the top, and more along the edge?

    A bit much, don't you think?

  • I've read ZD stuff for about 2 decades. Some before getting out of college and most after working for a company that produced COTS software. Because of that, I feel that my biased opinion has some weight.

    1. Before: I felt as if I was learning something interesting, and was 'cutting edge'.

    2. After: Those lying, half-inch deep, fluff pushers. What product are they pushing today?

    I've talked to reporters, been misquoted, seen the inaccurate cheerleading 'indepth reviews' that result. Not surpringly, nothing short of pulling advertisements from the same magazine has _any_ effect on this horrid process. That alone should give people something to think about -- imagine pulling advertisements just to get a less dammaging review!

    Screw 'em all. ZD specifically.

    If you have any opinion resulting from seeing these guys operate, speak up. There are very few reporters and even fewer magazines or websites that deserve any respect at all. (Plug: The Microprocessor Report - not as good as it used to be, but still worth a read).

  • BFD (Score:1)

    by PingXao ( 153057 )
    "I'm painfully aware of the way web advertising has dried up..."

    Good riddance to dried up advertising. Before web sites we had magazine reviews. This is no big loss IMO. There are other ways to do research on hardware (and software).

  • overclockers also has the story (Score:4)

    by adpowers ( 153922 ) on Tuesday June 12, 2001 @08:43PM (#156239)
    www.overclockers.com [overclockers.com] also has the here [overclockers.com]. In it they talk about how this will effect "homegrown" computer websites. They also compare computer magazines to computer websites.

  • This is scary (Score:3)

    by the_other_one ( 178565 ) on Tuesday June 12, 2001 @08:42PM (#156240) Homepage

    A review site that might not be as objective and unbiased as /.

  • I like the reaction at the end:

    But once I sat back and reflected on how awfully, horribly wrong ZD's print publications have gone in trying to address the enthusiast community, I felt a little better. A lot better, actually. Which leads me to my message to ZD and the other big media companies who want to play on our turf:

    Welcome to our house. Better learn how to graph.

    Although it seems like they may be playing more to the Mass market than to the specialty areas and experts. Which means that they will be somewhat successful, and will continue to have no influence on knowledgable experienced folks.

    Check out the Vinny the Vampire [eplugz.com] comic strip

  • Everyone who reads hardware sites should check it out "Benchmarking: The Money Game" [realworldtech.com] at RealWorldTech.com. They make similar points about how meaningless many hardware site reviews are.
  • I find many of the hardware review articles hard to take. They don't get the editing they need before they are posted, and once posted, they never seem to be corrected or updated as the product gets into the user's hands and more is learned.
  • Oh no, Walmart's moving to town and will put us all out of business!

    Or, on the other hand, it will only put out the cheeseball review sites that are only there since there isn't lots of serious competition out there will go under, and the good ones will be humming along just fine with 1/10th the budget and twice the quality of the other 'big' players. I'm all for rooting for the underdog, but I don't see this as the end of the world for good review sites.

  • The reviewer is often unqualified to perform the review, and the reader is equally unqualified to asses the review. For example most people think that DDR memory is a good thing. But does anyone out there really know what DDR memory is ? I bet half the slashdot readership think they are 'hardware experts' simply because they have overclocked their Athlon or whatever.

    I really believe this strategy is best for all but the most hardcore tech-savvy propellerheads. (you know, the kind of person who opens up their PC and is capable of understanding all that hardcore jargon about 'bus speeds' and IRQs.

    So without these hardware review sites, how are people supposed to become tech-savy? As a fairly long time reader of Toms Hardware and many of the other hardware review sites, I can say that when I was first starting out many of the "beginners guides" gave me a lot of insight into how everything worked. Heck, the first time I'd even heard of a North Bridge or a South Bridge it was on toms hardware in a comparison of a new chipset that had just been released. Typically, those sites do a good job of explaining most of the technical jargon that gets thrown around... Maybe not in the current article or the next one, but at least every few months when they decide to do another "for beginners" article.

    Well anyways, just my thoughts on the matter.

    -C

  • With MS IE 6 smart tags, you won't have to go to the next page. The link will be on the same page pointing to MS products
    That's a vary good point. Smart Tags [zdnet.com] blur the line such that only users who check the URLs of the site they're going to - ignoring the squigly line for the moment - would notice weather or not the site they may buy hardware from may actually NOT be associated with the site that reviewed it - asuming that it's inevitable that microsoft will eventually sell smart tags words much like RealNames [realnames.com] sells words as convenient URLs - and even then it may be difficult given the serpentine ownership of web properties these days. This introduces the possibility that over time users will become acustomed to such a convenience and when links to sites WITH co-ownership appear, users may not think swice.

    Again, maybe these users deserve what they get, for not performing any sort of real due diligence, but realistically, (as much as it pains me to say this) most users will fall into this category.

    So, not only do Smart Tags pose the threat of allowing microsoft to enguage in what amounts to deceptive and patently illegal advertising practices [slashdot.org], AND the threat of Trampling the rights of content (read copyright) owners [slashdot.org], but also, it it acts to redice the public consumer awareness, with regard to multi-sourcing information and market decisions. The latter is extremely dangerous because Microsoft could probably honestly say that this was not their intent at all (and I'd believe them) to the point where they may not be possible to hold them liable for it. It would be an etremely dangerous social side-effect of a technological 'convenience' - we've seen this sort of thing before. Not only are they a microsoft bad, but a larger social bad...

    --CTH


    ---

  • Re:Biased sites insult our intelligence. (Score:5)

    by hillct ( 230132 ) on Tuesday June 12, 2001 @09:18PM (#156247) Homepage Journal
    OK, how stupid do you have to be to go out trust hardware reviews you get on a website that on the next page offers to sell you that hardware?

    The disturbing thing is there are an inordinate number of users who would do just that. See how convenient the web is? I can learn about the best hardware and buy it on the same page! Oh, Boy! Wait a minute, this would never fly outside the online world. Go to a computer store and ask the sales 'consultant' what to buy, then he hands it to you and you fork over the green. There's an idea. Oh, and while you're at it, you might as well bend over and grab your ankles.

    Think for a moment how rediculous the above is, to the enthusiast comunity. No one would fall for this. It's merely the evolution of advertising. These new sites aren't geared tward technically astute people (read Geeks). They're grared tward the slightly more knowlegable general user, he who thinks he is aware of events within the industry and developments in technology. This is a logical progression. C|Net content was always geared tward the entry level user, the lowest common denominator. Their aquisition of ZDNet allows them to cater to a slightly (vary slightly) more sophistocated crowd, and now the introduction of these enthusiast-site look-alikes is simply a means to capture former ZDNet readers who fancy themselves morer astute than to continue teading ZD publications, probably anticipating their being dumbed down (even further) by CNet editors.

    Just as television advertising has become more sophistocated over the past two decades, online marketing has become infinately more sophistovated in the past half decade. The issue online though, is users will 'graduate' from one calibre of publication to another vary quickly and to keep users in the CNet network of content sites, they aquired ZDNet as the next logical progression and are now pushing another class of site to fit in between ZDNet and the true techie sites like Toms Hardware and AnandTech.

    CNet is out to expand their audience. They'll try to a more technically astute readership over time, but online publication is a reputation game. They'll pick up a few users here and there, but no self respecting /. reader would confuse AnandTech with Extreme Tech.

    --CTH


    ---
  • I see that you are a System Administrator (or at least you should be). BOFH? I thought so.

    I tend to make sure that, as well as what you posted, the piece of hardware meet the following criteria:

    1). Run under multiple operating systems so my computer won't puke.
    2). Not tied to one vendor (i.e. Zip Drives) so there is at least a little bit of competition.
    3). Can get a nifty extended warranty (for monitors only) so I can check out their true refresh rates in linux.

    Call me old fashioned, but I like not having to turn my system into a LART because I want to tear the lousy piece of hardware out of it just to bring sanity back into my life.
  • So without these hardware review sites, how are people supposed to become tech-savy?

    Ummm. I dunno ? A 3-year BS and a masters in comp sci did it for me...

    Cool - now you're an "academic", you're not tech-savy. You don't learn DDR/RD RAM specs or FSB details in university, do you? Or design details of nVidia's new chips (yes, I happen to be very interested in that one)?

    Nope, you don't. Uni just helps you understand the explanations of DDR/RD RAM or FSB specs later, when you find it in magazine or website or somewhere else...
  • 1066606061 == 63.147.29.237 don't click the link; its a bunch of gay porn popups.

    -
  • good.. in two years from now when you are sitting on your ass with your degree, will you be more savy about hardware than the schmuck who reads these sites all day? I didn't think so. The schmuck community lands another victory!

    -
  • Play it like the pro's:

    1. Pick the best.
    2. If 1 > budget than pick the next best.
    3. Buy it.
  • What class did you take in CS that possibly helped you evaluate the relative merits of Pentium 4's vs Athlons? Or RDRAM vs DDR RAM? or Geforce 3 vs Radeon 2?

    Maybe you went to DeVry, and got a college degree in computer repair. But CS is about algorithms and methodology, not overclocking.

  • In many tech companies, the employees have stock options. There is a presumption in the law that someone holding equity in a company can not be objective about that company or its competitors. Thus the disclaimers you see in journalism about "The San Abysmo Monocle is owned by the same parent company as Yada.Com" and so on; if not because of direct application of proscriptions in the code, then because of warnings by lawyers that failing to do so opens the company up to libel and shareholder suits. Anyone reading those disclaimers who does not immediately color their interpretation of the rest of the article is ignoring the facts.

    This onus is passed on to non-equity employees of the company, on the principle that there are people who are equity holders and have managerial control over that employee at some level.

    Mr. Schuchart may believe he is above such pitfalls. He is, but not in the sense of above he would like.

    --Blair
    "IANAL. Disclaimer: The United States is part-owned by Microsoft Corporation."

  • It's the way it works, get used to it! (Score:4)

    by Migelikor1 ( 308578 ) on Tuesday June 12, 2001 @09:04PM (#156255) Homepage
    You know, I would compare this to the competition between Wal-mart and small mom-and-pop retailers. Mom and Pop sure are swell, and you like how friendly they are to you, but still, that *mart sure has low prices and a wide selection. They are providing a service that you distrust, because they're a big corporation, but goshdarn if they don't do a good job of it. So you, and everyone else in town, switches, and mom and pop close. They are victims of capitalism...they couldn't compete with a big company, because the big company benefited the consumer. Still, if people are willing to serve their communities, they may support the local store, which will, admittedly make smaller profits. For those of you with AOL CDs instead of brains, (they must go somewhere) ZDnet planning to behave just like Walmart. They will try to *oh no* provide better service then the enthusiast run hardware sites. If they can manage, then I don't understand the beef. Tough shit Sharky. On the other hand, if they don't succeed (which I suspect will be the case) then they shall fall victim to corporate darwinism, and suffer an agonizing death by wall-street. However, if they succeed, like C-Net, then Everyboddy but Sharky and Tom win. CNet may not have the best reviews, but the mini hardware BBSs and price comparers are pretty damn useful. So what if they're a corporation, they help me.
  • >>OK, how stupid do you have to be to go out trust hardware reviews you get on a website that on the next page offers to sell you that hardware?

    There's a Penguin Computing ad at the top of this page Does that mean I shouldn't trust Linux informtion on /.? (Not that I do...)

    Wake up and take a look at the world you're in. It's no different from ZD.
  • are they afraid that people will be able to buy good reviews for their hardware ? or that they will only cover certain things ?

    i guess i'm not seeing their beef

  • having read a number of ZDNet stories, i dont' see them delivering the quality of tom's hardware or anandtech .. i don't think the good sites have much to worry about ..
  • Hey, I don't suppose anyone's noticed /.'s new advert.... for extremetech [extremetech.com]. Just the kind of hardware site that this article is talking about.
    Hey, I hope this comment isn't censored...
  • The reviewer is often unqualified to perform the review, and the reader is equally unqualified to asses the review.

    For example most people think that DDR memory is a good thing. But does anyone out there really know what DDR memory is ? I bet half the slashdot readership think they are 'hardware experts' simply because they have overclocked their Athlon or whatever.

    Remember in hardware a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. My approach to buying hardware has always been as follows:

    1) Pick a price point.
    2) Find out who the market leader, and the second player is (in the case of PC hardware that would be DELL and GATEWAY)
    3) choose one or the other

    I really believe this strategy is best for all but the most hardcore tech-savvy propellerheads. (you know, the kind of person who opens up their PC and is capable of understanding all that hardcore jargon about 'bus speeds' and IRQs.

  • how can i attract women

    The answer is simple. You need ESR's sex tips. [tuxedo.org]

    Don't be offended, they really work. I followed some of these and I was having to turn down dates because I became so successful. Seriously these tips are the most practical guide to getting laid I have ever seen anywhere. Period.

    The best thing is they are tailored to the slashdot demographics of nerds.

  • I've been thinking a bit more about this guy's problem. maybe its the car thats screwing things up. Chicks don't really like sedans. (Unless they are BMW M3). I would suggest buying something a bit more sporting, say a porsche boxster or a BMW Z3, then you will find chicks just climb into your car if you forget to lock the doors. This actually happened to me when I was driving a rental Z3.
  • So without these hardware review sites, how are people supposed to become tech-savy?

    Ummm. I dunno ? A 3-year BS and a masters in comp sci did it for me...

  • Here are 2 steps to create a hardware review site.

    1) Install Slash
    2) Fill it with good content

    For example... http://www.tomshardware.com [tomshardware.com]

    (of which I have no affiliation to this excellent site)

    Glorat
    http://www.glorat.net [glorat.net]

  • Your CEO, manager, or boss is the one who really makes the decision

    Not if he knows what he's doing. He hired me for my technical knowledge. I do technical eval. He takes these evaluations and incorporates them into business decisions. Change this at your peril

    How it works in a healthy org is that a manager or three gets together with a couple technical guys and says 'we want to do this'. They then find out what exactly this entails, budget it, and implement it. If they push a ZDnet propaganda piece, it's our job to deflate it.

    The Boss Man decides the business focus and how much he's willing to spend. The tech guy spends the money on what will actually work

  • and after they kill the local economy, nobody has money, so they leave.
  • It's their strategy. Bad money drives out good. If you drop a megastore into a small town where most businesses, the mom and pops (which usually provide better service) go under. Since these people can't easily relocate within town, they leave. The support services (doctors, lawyers, and so on) will follow when the business dries up. If too many people leave, the town dies, end of story.

    I do not shop at WalMart
  • 1) wait at least 4 weeks before making your purchase

    I find that this is still not enough. It seems that the "indy" sites and the people who get the newest stuff in the first 4 weeks can only either say that "it works great!! Here are my benchmarks!!" or "#$%$% thing won't install". It usually takes quite a bit of time before all the incompatibilities of hardware show up, and no one seems to compare 6month old boards to find out what is truly reliable.

    My personal preference is not to buy anything younger than 6months old. Living on the bleeding edge might be nice for those who can make a little cash at it, but for the rest of us actually have to get some 'work' done every now and then. The latest motherboard combined with the latest video card and the latest super-pipelined-caching-enhanced IDE controller may give an .00003 speed increase, but it's not worth the .00005% decrease in my lifespan that the stress of them not working together will cause.

    I find that all the hardware sites, 'indy' or not, are useless except to 1)explain how the hardware works and 2)tell if it will install or not. It's not until a user base congregates somewhere that you can actually learn if it's worth a shit or not.

  • Does anyone actually read ZD and think they're going to get unbiased information? Har har har! Buyer beware and all that.

    Max
  • Remember when the new execs changed the format of Wayne's show? It instantly went from having a homegrown, honest feel to being the artificial, try-to-please-everyone variety.

    "Extreme Hardware" will be just like Wayne's World after the big brass moved in. It may want to be homegrown, but it can't help but stink of a distrustful corporate influence.

    Thankfully, nobody important jumped ship and tried to become part of that. We should reward them and continue to support the homegrown variety hardware site for as long as we can.

    Could you imagine an Extreme Tech column written by, say Tom Pabst, who was pulled over after Tom's Hardware had to shut down due to lack of capital? Let's say he did some review on memory technologies and let's say the "unbiased" review would be sponsored by Rambus. Of course, he'd be "encouraged" to give the sponsor some good press time.

    Imagine him doing something similar to what Wayne did when Wayne had to interview one of the top brass from his show's sponsor: Tom would do the review as promised but he couldn't help but put in subtle little pop-up windows or mouseovers that would say "Rambus blows goats. I have proof."

    Shr3k
  • First off, this is a project from Ziff Davis Media, NOT ZDNet. In case you don't know, Ziff Davis sold the ZDNet properties to CNet, but will be setting up new sites themselves. I believe that ZDNet's license to use the content from Ziff Davis magazines also runs out fairly soon - next year? Secondly, as a professional journalist I resent the implicit assumption in your statements that what journalists say about products is biased towards those manufacturers are advertised. In seven years as a journalist on technology magazines, I have NEVER come across a case where products got good reviews because their manufacturer advertised in a magazine. Journalists don't always do a good job (and some do a lousy one of reviewing products), but that's not because of any bias of the kind you suggest. I'm not saying it's never happened. But I do say that it's much more rare than you suggest.
  • i never thought i would live to see the day when ANYONE with a technical background would limit his computer-buying choices to DELL and GATEWAY.
    Seriously, the world must be ending. By the way, are there pigs flying out of my ass? Are the legions of Hell engaged in a snowball fight? Did Christina Aguilera write a song????

  • Why will most people abandon the existing sites for this ZD's site. Everyone will stay with the Tom's HD Page, Anandtech, etc...

    Do you need buy.com Coupons [garlanger.com]

  • ZD being fluff pushers and all begs the question: Why were you reading them for two decades? Just don't see the conflict here. You hate their work, so ignore them. Seems like wasted keyboard strokes arguing about it. Sites like Tom's and 32bits aren't going away just because Bill Machrone has a new forum, so who cares?

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