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Handhelds Hardware

HP Ditching WindowsCE for Linux on Jornada? 167

Posted by CmdrTaco from the i'll-believe-it-when-I-see-it dept.
An anonymous reader sent in linkage to a story talking about HP ditching WinCE for Linux on their Jornada handhelds. As cool as that would be, I'm gonna seriously doubt that its gonna happen. But if they did, I'd have to buy a jornada.
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HP Ditching WindowsCE for Linux on Jornada? More

HP Ditching WindowsCE for Linux on Jornada?

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  • Re:Don't your applictions decide your OS? (Score:5)

    by xtal ( 49134 ) on Friday March 02, 2001 @08:27AM (#389069)

    ..I use a vaio right now for a machine that has some semblence of a keyboard and can run GCC - and has some sort of warranty (e.g. isn't 10 years old :). I used to have a HP100LX with Turbo C++ on it, but that got too old.. one of these Jornadas running linux would make a GREAT little development platform that could run GCC; And I'd buy one tomorrow (are you listening HP?), doublely so if they could make it have some sort of battery adapter to take standard sized cells.

    One of those machines makes a lot more sense for things like news reading, browsing, etc than my pilot - which is useful for PIM functions and games because it's always with me in a pocket. The combination of a palm and a jornada is something I've missed since I sold my 100LX.

    I want to shut this thinking down now - HP had one of the best PIM packages I've ever used developed in house for their 100/200LX units, and porting that or implementing it in linux would not be that difficult. The Jornada is much more "general purpose" than a handheld device, and I suspect this is why WinCE is falling flat on it's face - I want to be able to do my own stuff, and WinCE is too limited (as is PalmOS, in this application, IMHO. I'd rather linux or even DOS (like the 100LX).

    Go HP!

  • <p><i>"As cool as that would be, I'm gonna seriously doubt that its gonna happen."</i>

    <p>So why do you doubt that it's gonna happen? Don't you think that Linux is a better choice?

    <p>Here's the thing: HP is big enough that if putting Linux on a handheld will save them money or improve their product, they won't be so scared of MS to not do it. By far the biggest reason that they would stick with WinME is that it makes economic sense for them, on a large scale. If you doubt that it's 'gonna happen,' then it implies that you either don't understand this, or don't think that Linux is a better product.

  • I had to reset my Palm three or four times while I owned it.
  • Well, the kernel was written from scratch, but the rest is just GNU tools, right? And those tools were designed to be upward compatible with Unix.

    True, but the GNU toolset wasn't forked from BSD under any stretch of the imagination either.

  • Have you SEEN PocketLinux and the similar competing handheld Linux flavors? This is NOT just a bastardhack -- it's quite usable. I'd rather code for PocketLinux than PalmOS any day (yes, I've coded for PalmOS, I know what it's like).

    -John
  • Brian - you seem to forget one thing...

    If HP is moving to the Linux way, and you suggest that they'll go with Minix - they'll have a problem..

    1. How many processors Minix support? HP ic clearly is not designing it for the next month to put it out - but maybe a year or 2 - so chances are slim to find that your Unix variant runs on those processors - unless it's Linux or a BSD variant..

    2. HP will surely not going to write all those applications from scratch. I'm sure that they'll license those apps from 3rd party company, and most chances are that those companies have those apps either for Palm OS/Windows CE or ... you guessed ... Linux

  • I'd give HP kudos if they released the information to get Linux and XWindows running on the Jornada, but IIRC, the projects to get it running haven't met with much success. An officially endorsed version would be just as good as them going out and switching it themselves, which is what I'd rather see. Getting all the functionality working smoothly is a bigger task than I think it would be at first glance. (Sound & Video, especially).

  • I think that the Slashdot forums assume enough education in thier readers that they can detect bias on thier own. There is nothing wrong with supporting an OS that you like on a handheld device. Some rant "no applications", but that is just an opportunity for developers. For myself, I don't need a handheld device, so the ONLY way I would EVER buy one is if it came preinstalled with Linux.

  • 400 LX (Score:3)

    by psergiu ( 67614 ) on Friday March 02, 2001 @10:06AM (#389077)
    Hey HP !

    We want the successor to HP 200 LX - the BEST Jornada ever.
    The 200LX was an 8Mhz 80186 (286 without the MP support) with 1, 2 or 4 Mb of ram, 3.3V PCMCIA slot, serial & infrared port. 2 weeks standby/6-8 usage on 2 standard AA cells.

    We want the 400LX to be an 486sx or smth wth an IBM microdrive (or SANdisk) so we can run ANYTHING WE DAMN PLEASE ON IT ('cept w2k and ME which require pentium) and still to fit in the pocket.

    Want Linux - install your fav distro. Want 95 ? ok. Want NT - fine but slow.

    Don't tell-me it can-t be done - you have seen that PC105 (or smth) linux-server-on-a-matchbox here on /.

    A 486 cpu built with today's technologies (.25 or even .18) will run al blistering speeds and consume no power at all.


    --
  • I agree and disagree. I have both a Jornada 720 and ipaq 3600. I bought the jornada with the intent of porting linux to it.

    This would have happened already if it weren't for the non-flashable roms that come with the commerical version. I know institutions with other versions afoot that already have linux going.

    The ipaq has linux running beautifully.

    But why? Why bother?

    Simple... control.

    Disregarding the shrinkwrap B.S., my view of the world is I bought these devices and they are mine to use as I see fit. My intention for the jornada is to have a sysadmin tool of amazing proportions and the funny thing is that the ipaq shows how absolutely right that would be... I ssh into my ipaq which is running wireless (802.11b). The ipaq does xwindows and many people are writing excellent apps to support it.. mostly open-source. If I want to add a new feature to the python-office stuff being done, I can. No waiting or applying to some company to become a registered developer. I have the freedom and means to make a direct impact on the fuctionality of these devices.

    As I type this, JFFS is being added to the ipaq.. some already have it working. It is clear that there is *nothing* that couldn't be run on the ipaq that runs on any other linux device.

    And my Jornada.. well I made an effort to boot off compact flash cards and have pasued the effort.. but flashable roms are the real answer.. I bought it for the hardware capabilities; not to get locked into an opsys that makes me "wince". Last year I sent a number of e-mails to HP personnel and engineers lamenting the bygone days of HP's excellent support for their calculators and HP100/200 handhelds.Hopefully this is a step back toward a company who supports hardware openly. If there are any questions on "how", examine Compaq (never thought I'd type that :)

  • Linux is simply too effin' big for a single user, (cmon, its SUPPOSED to be tiny,) hand-held that doesn't need NFS, sendmail, Apache, and bazillion languages, (I can just imagine trying to configure x86 for a 160x160 screen,) yaddah, yaddah...

    That's not to say that the core functionality wouldn't be good but realistically, we're looking at a badly forked core with interoperability ports, not the full blown Linux.

    Might as well work with Palm to help it happen rather than trying to compete with them. (Competition: Doing it the hard, expensive way. Cooperation: Doing it the Linux way.)
  • It's still ugly, just not as bad as it used to be. It still lacks the seamlessness of the Palm, and it's still obviously Windows.

    /Brian
  • Yes, but is it really asking that much to request that the editors don't insert flamebait into each new article? After all,the people keeping them in business (readers) get modded down to -15 for doing much less.
  • I can only assume this irrational urge to run Linux on every computer is the same urge that causes them to place 5 litre engines in their cars.

    If the motorways in Britain weren't so congested, cars weren't the most expensive in the EU and the price of petrol wasn't close what most people call extortionate, you'd probably want a big fsck-off engine in your car too. It makes driving a hell of a lot more fun that whatever little hot hatch is in favour in the UK these days.

    Sounds like jealousy to me.
  • I may be alone in this. But I use my Palm Pilot and Apple Newton (thats right, you heard me) as VT100 terms. When I'm weazeled back in the server room I cant lug a Wyse term with me. Being able to plug into a serial port and get to the command line of one of the BAS (Big Ass Sun) systems is an invaluable tool. If they can add an X server to a plam sized device I'll be very happy. But in truth I've not seen a palm sized device with high enough resolution to make it worth while. Still, one can hope.
  • My understanding is that Minix is essentially a microkernel architecture. They could work down from there. /Brian
  • You know, those techniques are used here in the USA too.

    Judging by car sales figures for the UK and your comment, I can only assume that most of the population of the UK is not in its right mind.

    Have a nice day.
  • Who cares about the OS? In the handheld world it's the applications that run on top of it that matter. If HP release a handheld with a sucky set of applications then it won't matter a fig whether the thing is running WinCE or Linux underneath.
  • But if they did, I'd have to buy a jornada.

    How many more times are we going to have to hear the editors make irrational propaganda comments like this? Why do you people insist on blindly supporting any product that uses a linux distribution?

    Sure, it's great to have a "favorite OS" that you support and promote. But to have the power of being able to make a comment that will be seen by tens of thousands of people, you should have more editorial ethics than to make statements like this. When will Slashdot grow out of this ignorant infancy and become a truly UNBIASED forum for discussion?
  • Either FIX the fucking "Extrans," or get rid of the damned thing!

  • But if they did, I'd have to buy a jornada.

    Just because it would then be running Linux? Whatever happened to wanting/buying the best tool for the job?

    This reminds me of an old saying:
    If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

    --
  • If you are already fully in Microsoft land, maybe the thought of running PocketOffice gets you really excited. As for me, there are a lot more Linux applications I want to run on a handheld than there are WinCE applications.
  • *LOL*

    Don't get me wrong...I fully see Linux's appeal as a free operating system.

    I *don't* see how these other arguments really apply though...

    "easily be tweaked"... Custom hardware means custom programming. Not impossible, but not a walk in the park, surely.

    "Windows bloat"... To have a full-blown operating system, you'll have bloat. Doesn't really matter whether it's Microsoft or Linux, does it?

    "All most users really need"... Then why do they need the multiple processes, cron, etc running on a linux handheld would bring?

    "Microsoft's chains of oppression"... Don't get me wrong...Microsoft *is* inherently evil. But I have to laugh...they own like 5% of the PDA market. You mean Palm's chains of oppression (which are quite comfortable to me...as they aren't forgetting the minimalistic basics.)
  • Today is the last day to file for a product refund in the Class Action Lawsuit against HP. The lawsuit, if you remember, concerns Jornada 400 & 500 series palmtops which were advertized as having 16bit color, but do not. If I remember the details correctly, you are entitled to a full refund of PURCHASE price from HP. Check out the details on their site.
  • Because it's fun. Because of the public scrutiny resulting from the still ongoing trial and appeals, there's not really much that Microsoft can do about it.

  • Open Sourced Handheld Operating System (Score:3)

    by searleb ( 168974 ) on Friday March 02, 2001 @08:35AM (#389095) Homepage
    But if they did, I'd have to buy a jornada.

    I think putting Linux onto a handheld device is just as pointless as putting Windows. What do you honestly need the power for? Do you ever crunch through heavy databases on your Palm? Do you ever program fiercely on your handheld? Do you ever play Quake on it? How does a command prompt help you check your address book?

    I think the notion of having an open source handheld operating system is excellent. But that's exactly all it should be- a handheld operating system. Handhelds will never replace desktops. They aren't ment to.
  • But the scalability thing is just my point -- ucLinux and Elks aren't Linux per se, they're siblings.

    /Brian
  • I'm gonna seriously doubt that its gonna happen. But if they did, I'd have to buy a jornada.

    Because, of course, Windows CE (now known as PocketPC) sucks, right Taco?

    Have you ever used Windows CE? Have you ever played around with it? It's not in the same ballpark as PalmOS in terms of functionality, but it comes awfully darn close.

    And with the new handhelds having the Windows 2000 kernel be their cornerstone (sometime in 2002), the machines will get much more stable.

    Besides, show me a Compaq iPac with Linux installed that can play MP3's. I rest my case.

  • My employer has provided me with a Jornada. If they were to buy new Jornadas, it would need to connect up and work in the same way as the present ones.
    Most 'business' users don't care what OS it is running. They just need it to connect up to their Outlook, transfer a few files and maybe play some music.
    I have never got around to connecting it up to Linux but I understand I could. It would be nice to connect it to M$ at work and a grown up" OS at home though. This may be easier if they do change.
  • I use Outlook at work too. When I bought my Palm IIIx, it came with software to allow it to sync with Outlook. The software works great--I have no complaints so far. So what's you point? My Palm integrates just fine with my MS desktop softare.
  • Wishful thinking. Both X and PocketLinux are both quite useless for actual use. Sorry! PocketLinux shows promise, but isn't anywhere near usable yet.
  • Yes I have and currently do program for CE. Yes the onscreen emulator requires a solid, professional OS (i.e. win2k/NT4). Quite frankly, doing dev work on anything less in the Windows world is the first sign that you're a masochist! :-) In dev work for CE's favor, the IDE is free (well, you pay for shipping). Works the way you expect it to (provided you're use to Visual Studio). Includes VC++ and VB. Try to learn MFC in a hurry? If you consider 2 weeks a hurry, then yeah (this was back in the Win3.1 days, so yes, it was painful). Was by no means an expert at it at the end of the 2 weeks, but was comfortable enough in it to be productive in my job. Don't want to use MFC, then use c++/c and Win32. Don't want to use that? Use VB. Don't want to use that, either? Get another job :-) All in all, a wonderful, relatively painless coding experience.
  • ...is why HP would do something like this to piss Microsoft, when, a few day's when they announced ending development on OpenMail, that one of the reason's they we're ending development was because they thought created friction with microsoft.

    Ohh well probably shows the amount of bs that goes into press releases
  • But if they did, I'd have to buy a jornada.

    Is that a new law or something?


    --
  • QT/Embedded should work perfectly on Jornadas. The 32MB/SDRAM of Jornada 720, it should be more than enough to run many KDE apps... maybe some specifically written by HP. That's why I think there is much more then a flashing cursor to expect from a Linux Handheld.
  • What I think they tried in the article is that HP wanted to give user's a choice besides PocketPC. So user's could choose linux or palmos.

  • Yopy (Score:1)

    by zalt28 ( 267161 )
    I don`t know if you are HP fan boys,samsung haters or just forgot

    The truth is that samsung has already created the YOPY,a linux-based pda

    look at this link for pics http://www.gicom.com/yopy/

    for a discussion about it http://slashdot.org/articles/00/04/27/0858200.shtm l
  • Wrong. The next version of CE will support just as many cpu's as the current (and probably more). Perhaps you were thinking about embedded Whistler (or, as it's now known, XP). What IS neat about embedded XP is that XP has been designed from the ground up to be a modular OS, this way the leap from Desktop/Server to embedded version is just a little hop. Very cool stuff coming to the embedded market from MS by year's end :-)
  • I want a PC in the size of a Palm. Hook up a keyboard and some Sony Glasstrons when I want to watch a movie or do some serious coding. Maybe play MP3's on it while I'm flying somewhere, and catch up on my reading while I'm at it. When I land, I'll use the GPS, figure out where I am (cities all begin to look alike at some point), grab a map off the web via the wireless modem, and off I go. Maybe watch the live TV coverage of the earthquake that cut the power that stuck me in this elevator.

  • RTFL! Linux OR PalmOS (Score:4)

    by wowbagger ( 69688 ) on Friday March 02, 2001 @09:13AM (#389110) Homepage Journal
    Much as I'd LOVE to see a major player shipping a Linux based PDA, read the freaking article! They said "Linux OR PlamOS", not "Linux". Until I actually see Tux on the bootup, I will pessimistically assume it will be PalmOS. Then they can leverage all the PalmOS apps.

    Mind you, if they did ship a Linux version... well, I'd have my Mastercard out so fast Einstein would be spinning in his grave.

  • Don't your applictions decide your OS? (Score:3)

    by Rombuu ( 22914 ) on Friday March 02, 2001 @08:21AM (#389111)
    But if they did, I'd have to buy a jornada.

    Um, why? Its not like I see tons of linux software out there that's made to run on handhelds. I mean, great, it boots up to a prompt or whatever, then what?


  • The "Plain Old Text" and "Extrans" tags are swapped in the listbox.

    Not sure why this was never fixed.
  • I work at a company that uses mainly Windows NT and we have our own personal Jornada 720s.

    The whole reason we have jornadas is for keeping track of our schedules and getting reminders. Now since we aren't on the jornadas all day it is nice to get the reminders on our personal PCs, and we have software that keeps the MS Outlook on our jornadas in sync with our PCs. If HP moves to Linux they wouldn't have MS Outlook on the jornadas and the benefit of having the MS products in sync would be lost.

    Now I know most people here are going to say "Well, use Linux on your workstations" however most companies have already invested into Windows NT, and they will need PDAs that can interface with the established systems.
  • As much as I hate Micro$oft, I gotta admit they did a lot of things right with PocketPC. I've got an iPaq and the thing is blazing fast (it'll run Quake fer Chrissakes!) and they've trimmed down the UI so it works in a palm-sized device. It also plays mp3 and mpeg video. I've had no problems with mine at all; it's the best PDA I've ever had (I've used Palm and Newton previously). Topping it off, M$ released, for free, complete C++ and VB IDEs for it, making it a snap to develop for it. -Jeff
    -Vercingetorix
  • Scaling up is irrelevant. The issues pointed out elsewhere in this thread seem to be more important -- stability for example. That might invalidate the Minix idea, but scaling wouldn't.

    /Brian
  • I'm in a job right now programming Wince devices for deployment in a large corporation. As a Palm user, it's hard to think about anything in windows ce as "trimmed down." The interface has a lot of annoying little problems:

    not every application has a close button. Since wince actually splits memory into "program memory" and "storage memory" this eats up alot of ram, unless you enjoy closing the program manually with control panel or using the highly efficient and intuitive "ctrl-q" (which of course means bringing up the keyboard).

    there's also no easy way to switch between open applications without using the "memory" app in control panel. This gets really annoying after awhile.

    the file explorer always defaults to My Documents. This doesn't sound too bad....until you've drilled down in the hierarchy and click on an image. Hey cool, it opens in IE. Lets look at the other images in that directory... use the icons at the top of the start menu to switch back to the file explorer....and you're back at My Documents. Not fun to have to switch directories again.

    I could go on. I've never used the iPaq extensively, but the Casio is slooooow compared to the feel of the Palm OS.

    Regarding the development stuff...yeah the free IDE's are nice, but actually developing for wince involves alot of headaches and annoying workarounds. It's hardly a "snap."

  • Car battery? Have you worked with Windows 2000? Ever? It's got some of the most advanced power saving features I've seen for laptops.

    And I meant Win2K kernel, not whole system.

  • 2000 is the only windows I run. But I don't see it running on the likes of a 32MB StrongArm system with 16MB of flash anytime soon. It's pretty piggy. The kind of handheld system needed to run Win2k would probably have laptop-like battery requirements and would not fit in my pocket. I was just exaggerating about the car battery. Haha.

    - - - - -
  • Why wouldn't you judge your products based on what they can do, not based on something as stupid as this?

    "It would be able to run many existing Linux apps, it would be very easy to develop new apps for, and it would be very easy to integrate into my existing networks as a client or an admin tool" sound like quite a lot of "what they can do" to me.


    ---
    "They have strategic air commands, nuclear submarines, and John Wayne. We have this"

  • Re:Why not Minix? (Score:3)

    by maggard ( 5579 ) <michael@michaelmaggard.com> on Friday March 02, 2001 @09:15AM (#389136) Homepage Journal
    Why Minix ?

    There's a dozen decent OS's I can think of that are already appropriate or could be with the same effort as Minix would require. The point is that they're not what folks want (well, outside of OS-stalwarts.)

    Linux now has brand-recognition. Management has heard of it, the geeks are enthused, there's applications everywhere for it. It's a known quantity. Heck even Accounting now knows what catagory to list it in.

    MS sold folks on the idea of one OS scalable throughout the company - Data Center / File Server / Database Server / Mail Server / Terminal Server / Firewall / Desktop / Laptop / Palmtop / Home / Embedded.

    Linux is doing the same thing - one OS (and one skillset, one codebase) scalable up and down. HP knows it can sell this the same way MS pushed WinWhatever and they're going for it.

    Furthermore it's trivial to strip down a Linux kernel. Sure it might not be as lean as some others but we're reaching the point where leanness isn't the main criterion. CPU cycles and RAM aren't as limited as they were even 6 months or a year ago, the next generation will be faster / more memory, etc. There's more value in having the aforementioned base of applications and brand-recognition then there is in having some special-purpose OS.

    Finally HP isn't necc. selling this for today's market. They're looking a year or two down the line. Linux will clearly still be going strong with lots of development - Minix et al will almost surely not be recieving the same kind of support. At that point running something other then Linux or an entrenched product (Symbios, PalmOS, WinCE) on tomorrow's super-palmtop would have been a short-term gain for a long-term handicap.

  • All of this is currently possible with an iPaq.

    -Vercingetorix
  • What, you think HP would actually just toss Debian on there and let the users flail away with a command prompt on a tiny screen and a stylus? You don't think HP's going to go out and either find some apps that will work well on the Journada, or write their own?

    I realize it seems funny to think of geeks trying to type at command prompts on their geeky handhelds, but you can bet the Windows CE license fee HP won't tank the handheld by leaving it bare and user-unfriendly. Come on. Credit them for at least some intelligence - at least a bit more than certain posts have shown.
  • linux works a lot better than a windows derivitive on embedded systems.

  • Re:Right, Taco. (Score:4)

    by 1010011010 ( 53039 ) on Friday March 02, 2001 @11:08AM (#389149) Homepage
    Besides, show me a Compaq iPac with Linux installed that can play MP3's. I rest my case.

    Win2k on a handheld?!?! What is it powered with, a car battery?

    Here is a screenshot [pocketlinux.com] of an iPaq running pocketlinux, playing an MP3. Here is another [trolltech.com] -- this one of QPE, including screenshots that show its support for alternate input methods.

    - - - - -

  • What, are you new around here? OK, here's the skinny: Some of the slashdot readers and many of the staff do not use proprietary software. Strange as this may seem, they are fully within their rights to make this choice. Windows CE is proprietary software, consequently many of the slashdot readers and staff will not use it.

    HTH

    I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature.

  • Re:Open Sourced Handheld Operating System (Score:3)

    by hey! ( 33014 ) on Friday March 02, 2001 @09:21AM (#389152) Homepage Journal
    But if they did, I'd have to buy a jornada.

    I think putting Linux onto a handheld device is just as pointless as putting Windows. What do you honestly need the power for?


    It's not power; it's familiar, free development tools in a developer friendly environment.

    Basically, nonbody is going to knock king Palm of his throne in the PIM applications, simply because more is less in the PIM application arena. It's the other kinds of applications that will sell a non-palm PDA, with PIM thrown in as a bonus.

    We actually sell Palms in my company this way -- to host our applications and gee by the way you can keep your address list in here too. We could migrate away to a Linux based system very easily.

    I can think of lots of applications. For example a super easy to use GPS system written in TCL/TK; a handheld network analyzer/management console/security monitor; add a microdrive to get a portable web and database server for taking to trade shows; a diagnostic tool that will interface with a automobile engine; a laboratory instrument controller; a free MP3 player; a robot controller that is conveniently removeable for programming; add A/D and have a handheld oscilloscope; an electronic key ring with strong encryption; a journalist workpad that can transmit encrypted articles and retouch digital photos in the field. I could go on and probably think of a couple of hundred of way out ideas.

    You just have to use your imagination to think outside the PIM box for applications that require easy programmability combined with small footprint.

  • when I see you programming with a stylus.

    Meanwhile, I am working in a lab at Brown producing state of the art hand writing recognition software, and every day we get yelled at by a lab member to make it do mathematical equations...mmm...I think maybe this would kinda make sense if you have a keyboard, cause then you could sit around in class and program..but otherwise...I don't thinks so

  • Ok. Every time anyone comes out and says anything about why would people want to have linux on the handheld, people come out of the woodwork screaming "no one cares al long as it has a calendar" etc . . .

    The fact is, everyone cares about apearances. Handspring has done so well in part because of their funky colors (look at Palm scrambling to catch up). People throw new skins on I.E. (Internet Exploiter) and you can't even pretend you don't spend a least an hour a week tweaking the frames/ background/ pixmaps/ window manager on your choice of X11 desktop.

    This is all about customization. Using an OSS solution for a handheld means that the vendor has better options for branding and customization, a platform where development follows already known standards, and a comunity constantly developing widgets that aren't going to cost their end users a dime.

    And yes, inspite of the new Prism in my bag right now - I'll pick up a Jornada running linux first chance I get. Just don't tell my girlfriend.

  • Two parts here:

    1) Why linux is not (necessarily) overkill for embedded apps.

    2) Why minix would probably be less than fun.

    Ok, point (1). I've heard a lot of this "linux is overkill for embedded systems" talk, but I feel like its coming from people who haven't ever done anything but the enormous full install of their favorite distro on their honkin' big home box. When you strip it down to essentials, you can get a perfectly functional system running in very few Mb. Ok, linux is a bit beefy (kernel size wise) comparied to some of the RTOSs that get used out there, but we are talking differences here that are totally insignificant given todays embedded hardware. Remember what hardware was like when linux development began? What about UNIX? Linux can run on freakin' tiny platforms. Take it from me.
    I get the sense from your post that most of your size worries come from using a full "windowing system" like X. Ok, X on a palmtop is probably a bad idea. But thats not the only solution out there. There are windowing systems (microwindows?) built for just this kind of thing.

    2) Here's why you really want to use linux instead of minix: Other people have done almost all of the work for you. Pick a processor or a dev. board, and someone has probably ported linux to it. What happens if you want a PCMCIA slot on your Minix handheld? Uh, got to write the drivers yourself. Linux? No problem. And there are scads of other examples like this.

    Linux on embedded systems is not necessarily the most elegant thing on earth, and isn't great is you have hard realtime needs, but really, just for the number of people out there working on the same stuff (and sharing it!) you just can't beat linux...

    spreer

  • As Linux zealots, yes we are all happy when any vendor decides to package linux along with their devices.

    But I disagree with your notion that all that users really need in a PDA is a simple address book. calendar , scheduler and browsing capabilities. See, when YOU decide what your user should have, thats when you are wrong. I dont believe Microsoft did a stupid thing by putting in an e-book reader, video and MP3 playback. When they have better rendering capabilities, when Nvidia starts putting out chips for handhelds as they would in the future (there are millions of users out there with a PDA, and Nvidia wont just ignore that market), we would definitely need ebook readers and Video playback. And memory is not an issue anymore, it were in the past.

    Linux's enemy was never MS. it was always linux itself. Unless or otherwise you have tons of productivity apps that could run on a PDA (or atleast a handful which are really good), HP is not gonna capture a good chunk of the market share. WinCE may not be as advanced or secure as Linux on a handheld, but it gets most of the work done. And it looks good.

    As for the Microsoft chains of oppression, well lets not talk about it now. They have binding contracts with HP, which is evident on HP's x86 server ads ("We recommend Windows 2000 Professional for business").

    But if you just wanted to troll today, then I guess none of what I said would go to your head anyway. :)

  • They should eat their own dogfood, and use HP-UX! I'm sure they'll attract lots of developers because H-PUX's cutting edge development tools, like debuggers that can't debug!

    And users will love patching their OS every week.

    atom - still bitter from being my project's HPUX guy a few years ago...
  • linux is cool, sure. but I'd like to have VMS on my PDA.

    batch queues, versioning in RMS, DECnet onboard - would be cool eh?

    (wakes up from dream.) oh wait, this is 2001, isn't it? VMS is dead. ok, then linux; its the next best thing.

    --

  • Well that's sort of my point, although throwing PalmOS in there makes a difference. If you can't justify Linux from a business standpoint, then it's not a better system. Uptime doesn't count if you can't talk to anyone else, and free is irrelevant if there are no apps.

    My original point was that it sounds like Taco doesn't believe Linux to be a better system in the real world. Maybe fair, but uncommon on /. and if true, then what's the point of advocacy.

    However like I said in THIS post, the PalmOS factor changes things. Linux may be miles better than WinCE but not as good as PalmOS, in which case there is a point to advocating change.

    P.S. to the moderator: Flamebait? If I was baiting, you'd know it!

  • Heck, Taco and I BOTH would buy one.. that must be approaching the sales that they get with CE :)
  • Actually Linux is *NOT* cheaper to implement.

    To have the lawyers go over the code you write to make sure it does not infringe on the GPL takes money.

    Software engineers who become lawyers/laywers who become software engineers are not cheap.

    That doesn't mean they can't use Open Source however. NetBSD already boots, and doesn't have a long, lengthy license requiring a staff dedicated to preventing the release of company Intellectual Property as expressed in source code.

  • I work next door to Redhat... (Score:3)

    by Otto ( 17870 ) on Friday March 02, 2001 @09:39AM (#389172) Homepage Journal
    And I went over there a while back to investigate some industrial handheld solutions they were working on. They showed me a couple of handheld devices running Linux, with 802.11 and Bluetooth, but also running some version of XWindows. Seriously. The one I was most impressed with was running Gnome.

    So it's entirely possible. :)
    ---
  • Windows CE might be great for the end user with its relatively familiar interface, but did you ever program for this type of environment? The software devlopment kit for Windows CE pretty much gives small developers the choice to either

    1)buy a bunch or handheld/pocket PC type devices
    2)install windows 2000/NT4

    Windows 2000/NT4 is needed to support the emulator for the PDA. No other operating system will work. The only other option is to buy the devices and download the program to them. As a university student familiar with a Unix style environment, I do not appreciate having to install an overbloated OS just to do some minor development work on an application.

    I would like to see more PDA operating system choices, paticularly something that could be emulated on a system other than windows 2000/NT. I would especially like to see something Linux or Unix based since my university has lots of machines available for developing on those platforms. Having more choice would allow me to work in the environment I am most comfortable. Besides, did you ever try and learn MFC in a hurry? There should be a better way.
  • There's multiple pieces to a Linux distribution, but Linux is nothing more than a Kernel to run other applications on. As a Kernel, it's not much different in size to something like PalmOS or EPOC. If you don't realize that there'd be "PDA" type apps instead of server or desktop apps running on the PDA, you're more clueless than most.
  • People don't really care what runs on their handhelds. As long as it lets them use a calendar, play games, and sync with their desktop. If HP picks Linux, it will gain the advantage of not having to pay for their OS. Plus they get the goodwill (hence the money) of many geeks without compromising the mainstream market.
  • Look at pocketlinux.com, they seem to be doing a pretty good job of producing palmtop applications for Linux.

    Bruce

  • In the examples you gave, the applications do all of that work for the user. It's not the "filesystem" that does it. Ever looked at the memory management setup on any PDA? They all have the distinction of files that are copied on or off the machine. The apps don't make that distinction unless they have to.

    Just because Linux is being used doesn't just magically prevent that- all the Linux PDA's I've seen so far have a mix of apps, some of them the traditional ones, some of them not. The ones that are the traditional way of things on a PDA don't have the distinction of "files". The ones that are a little more sophisticated tend to work as their paradigm allows for files or not. Some do, some don't. I'm sure that the concept of MP3's does bring in some semblence of files, etc.

  • I presently own a PalmIIIe. For the most part it's great. Sometimes it crashes, sometimes I wish it could do more, but if I had a pile of money and the chance to do it over again I'd probably just get a IIIc.

    My biggest beef about the Palm is that I can only write 4k notes. Now I know you can get around this with a shareware program (SuperPad), but I'm not sure if that'll sync with my Linux machine.

    The Palm is great. No thanks to 3Com it has great Linux connectivity, and the uber-geeky palm keyboard is the handiest add-on ever. I've used my little Palm to write several essays and reviews. I love it.

    If the OS doesn't have silly limitiations (like the Palm) if it's easy to use, inexpensive and syncs well with my Linux box, then I'll think about upgrading/switching.

    Does anyone out there know the status of PDA's and Linux? The Palm works well, CE'd be a bust (I'm guessing" but what about all of these Linux-based PDAs? What about embedded QT? Do they provide syncing with Linux desktop machines? The Yopi? Etc.

    That, and no stupid file limits (4k for the apps, 32k hard.. sheesh.. what were they thinking?) is what I want.

    Oh, and since they don't have to pay MS, it had better be cheaper than the current crop..
  • CE isn't NT. Is there any magic that would prevent a PalmOS or Linux Jornada from syncing with Outlook? I can't think of any.
  • HP's PIM on the 100 and 200 belonged to Lotus. We can do better now.

    Whether or not HP settles on Linux for its software, the raw hardware is probably capable of running Linux. Even working for HP, I care less about what software they choose than the fact that I can make my own choice.

    Thanks

    Bruce

  • How true this is.
    Wanna make a quick buck? Buy a $100 handheld. Put linux on it. Sell it for $500. We all know Taco would buy one.
    Just because linux is on it, doesn't make it a good product.
    If it has good hardware, good applications, great features, then yes, a linux OS would be the topping on the cake, but shouldn't be the defining factor.

    Its called "Tunnel Vision".

    --
  • I guess you haven't seen Agenda VR-3 in action. This Agenda have X windows inside - and it's amazing what you can do with it - the guys at work showd me some really cool stuff - and some of them are thinking to port MAME to it :)

  • And Minix scales up?

    Look, there's no point in talking to you if you're bound and determined to go with Minix. Go ahead by the HP thingie, start cross-compiling and port Minix to it. Be my guest.

    If you actually want to know why not a dozen folks have told you why. REAL (tm) Linux is already doable and ucLinux and Elks are at least, as you said, cousins.

    Minix is like the birth-parent who left the baby on the street-corner, never wanted to see it then when it grew up and made something of themselves came around knocking, sniffin' for money. I'd rather port to a cousin then some kinda freaky relative like that.

  • the first thing I have heard people ask about non Palm brand handhelds is "Will is run the same programs?"

    Having different CPU, Jornada, even if it will run PalmOS, won't run Palm 68K binaries without an emulator. However 68K+Palm hardware emulator that the user can run PalmOS under, already runs on a shitload of OSes.

  • Re:My favorite thing about WinCE (Score:3)

    by DGolden ( 17848 ) on Friday March 02, 2001 @08:56AM (#389202) Homepage Journal
    And my favorite feature of the iPAQ is that you can already install linux [pocketlinux.com] on it, and start messing around with it ;-)
  • I'm curious: if HP is offering full refunds to people who aren't happy with the machines, then why would one join a class-action lawsuit? Or, for that matter, any other lawsuit?

    Yes, I'm sure that some people are extremely irritated that the 16b hardware is only being used in a 12b mode by the software, but is it really something to sue over? If you really need the higher fidelity, why not just take the refund and get something else? Or if you're like me, who has no problem with the 4k colors of the iPaq, why not stick with what you've got?

  • Re:My favorite thing about WinCE (Score:3)

    by swordgeek ( 112599 ) on Friday March 02, 2001 @08:24AM (#389205) Journal
    Yep. That and Windows ME, as in "Bend me over the table and Windows me again."

  • The story was also covered in The Register [theregister.co.uk] last week, based on a C|Net interview with HP' new Embedded/Personal Systems head bloke.

    Interesting stuff.

    For myself, I'm quite happy with my Palm for now because although it can't quite support Perl, I can get it to talk to my Linux box.
    --
    Dunx

  • ...and I'd have to admit that I would be torn.

    I enjoy my Palm IIIc, but I would really enjoy having a hand-held that ran linux out of the box - and didn't require a ton of tweaking to make it work.

    In the mean time, I will still use the Palm...
  • For three reasons:
    1. The article mentioned Linux or the 'industry-leading' PalmOS, which has 86% market share. Sounds like PalmOS would be a more logical move for HP.
    2. Why assume that a commercial Linux-based PDA will be good or open? It may be just an inferior clone of WinCE. An open linux palmtop would be nice, but HP has said nothing about openness. So don't assume that you'll ever get a shell on this device.
    3. I think that companies which publicly threaten to break away from Microsoft are frequently just trying to get better terms from MS. For example, AOL threatened MS with Netscape, and probably got the upper hand in their IE rollout via that threat. I think HP is just saying, "Hey Bill! We have choices. Better treat us right!"

  • Linux or PalmOS (Score:3)

    by Anonymous C0vvvvv4rd ( 319323 ) on Friday March 02, 2001 @08:26AM (#389216)
    One option for HP is to switch away from Microsoft's Pocket PC operating system, and onto a different platform such as Linux, or the market-leading Palm OS. "Jornada as a product has an opportunity to become more successful," said Morris.

    So, from the story it looks more likely that they'll switch to PalmOS, since Palm holds a huge percentage of the market share. But more likely than that (IMHO), they'll get caught up in the Microcrap machine and stick with CE.
  • It's about time that some major manufacturer's realized the potential that Linux presents in handheld devices. Linux is the obvious choice in such a device because it is compact, easily customizable, and has superior security and connectivity. The linux kernel can easily be tweaked to provide a superior handheld platform that includes basic organization and communication features without all the wasteful Windows bloat.

    All most users really need in a PDA is a simple address book, calendar, and a schedular, with possible internet browsing capabilities. Microsoft, apparently doesn't understand this as they try to include e-book readers, IR capability, video and MP3 playback, and other memory hogging crap that no one really needs in a portable device.

    It's about time the a major vendor takes the initiative and casts off Microsoft's chains of oppression to install Linux on a PDA. I just hope that Microsoft will not employ their usual despicable monopolistic practices and punish HP for their decision to stray from Big Blue.

  • Why not Minix? (Score:5)

    by connorbd ( 151811 ) on Friday March 02, 2001 @08:26AM (#389218) Homepage
    What seems to be lost in all of this is that Minix seems to be the way to go for such a small system. Linux takes work, maybe even a code fork. What I simply fail to get in all this: YES, it's good that Linux is being ported to hell and back, and YES, it's nice to have an option other than PalmOS the great and WinCE the self-explanatory, why does it have to be a full-up Unix? Here's the second biggest problem with WinCE: its interface is still bound to the desktop metaphor. I don't see how exactly you can do much better than this with Linux -- you need a GUI but a "windowing system" per se is overkill. Palm uses a few windows, but for the most part seems to rely on pageswapping to display interfaces. And Linux itself is just too damn big. What's really needed here is an OS that's small to begin with. Minix doesn't need to be built from the ground up; just add some decent power management to the kernel, replace the console with the above-mentioned hypothetical minimalist GUI, and go from there. Face it, folks: the only reason we want to see Linux on a palmtop is name brand recognition. It's about time someone came up with a GPLed OS designed specifically for PDAs. (suggested moderation: -1 Flamebait) /Brian

  • Re:RTFL! Linux OR PalmOS (Score:3)

    by JediTrainer ( 314273 ) on Friday March 02, 2001 @09:51AM (#389220)
    Mind you, if they did ship a Linux version... well, I'd have my Mastercard out so fast Einstein would be spinning in his grave.

    Why? Did you take his?
  • naah ... HP-UX still has that dreaded 128Gb size limit on a filesystem ...
    :)

    --
  • Thats a MAYBE in my book for Palm OS..

    With Palm OS, they'll still have to pay royalties and licenses for each hand-held they're selling...

    With Linux, they can simply put the bare OS itself with X Windows (or W windows) and bundle some programs with it..

    Even if they'll license the pocket-linux and bunch or programs with it, plus lab costs (to develop the interconnect between applications, hardware related issues, sync etc...) it won't cost them as much as Palm OS or Windows CE...

    I have been talking to many companies who make those kind of devices and one thing is for sure - Microsoft simply doesn't learn that in term of pricing - the Desktop market is totally different then the Palm/PocketPC/Embedded market..
  • Have you even used a newer version iPaq?

    AssetView tells me the OS Version is 3.0. The interface is NOT bound to a desktop metaphor. There are elements of commonality like a "Start" bar but those only make it easier to use for people who know what those metaphors mean in a Windows environment.

    I would seriously suggest you try one out for yourself because I can't do justice to describing the interface here. Unfortunately, Compaq has them on backorder for several months wait time. I ordered mine in early November and got it in February.
  • As cool as that would be, I'm gonna seriously doubt that its gonna happen. But if they did, I'd have to buy a jornada.

    Hey, that's cool -- can I have your iPaq [slashdot.org] if you do? Some of us can't afford the buy the latest geek toys...

    --Cycon

  • Microsoft licenses CE for free, I believe.
  • Then you're not looking hard enough. There's a wide range of software already, since, as well as the pocketlinux [pocketlinux.org] Java/XML/linux solution, there's also an X Window System port, so most smaller linux apps will _already_ run - and also, since VNC and X both run on linux, I can, if I so wish, use my mobile phone + handheld PDA to remote (GUI!) admin my servers (actually, I've already done this with a Psion running EPOC32 + Java VNC and a WinCE machine running VNC...)

  • There is a linux based Palm SDK and emulator available. Here's an intro on Linux Gazette [linuxgazette.com]. You can download tools and documentation from the Palm developer page [palmos.com]. You can do all your programming on linux with the familiar gnu tools, do some testing with the emulator, and then download them to the Palm for more in depth testing.

  • Why not MS-DOS? I'm serious, 6.2 was relatively mature by microsoft standards, and god knows there are enough programs that run on it. Would be fun to be able to play wasteland or ultima 5 while you're travelling...
    --

  • not every application has a close button. Since wince actually splits memory into "program memory" and "storage memory" this eats up alot of ram, unless you enjoy closing the program manually with control panel or using the highly efficient and intuitive "ctrl-q" (which of course means bringing up the keyboard).

    At first I thought this would be a problem too, but after using my iPaq for a few months, it actually hasn't turned out to be an issue. I haven't had any memory problems, and if I'm going to fire up a real hog I just hit the Compaq menu button and select "close all tasks." No need to use the keyboard at all.

    there's also no easy way to switch between open applications without using the "memory" app in control panel. This gets really annoying after awhile.

    The start menu shows recently used apps. You can easily go directly to what you want.

    the file explorer always defaults to My Documents. This doesn't sound too bad....until you've drilled down in the hierarchy and click on an image. Hey cool, it opens in IE. Lets look at the other images in that directory... use the icons at the top of the start menu to switch back to the file explorer....and you're back at My Documents. Not fun to have to switch directories again.

    In day-to-day use, it's not a big problem. I suspect someone will write a better file manager, if it hasn't been done already.

    As for the Casio, it is slow. The iPaq with a 206 Mhz processor is just as snappy as a Palm though. The only app that ever takes a noticable amount of time to load is MS Reader, and it only takes a couple of seconds to load.

    -Vercingetorix

  • But if they did, I'd have to buy a jornada (Score:3)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 02, 2001 @08:27AM (#389234)
    Why? Why wouldn't you judge your products based on what they can do, not based on something as stupid as this?
  • Hm...on second thought. There might already been something that you can hack it to be like your dream machine.

    I heard this idea from a friend. The RIM Blackberry pager. It has a full keyboard, a nice screen and uses a 386. Modem is built in.

    Anyone tried installing Linux on it?

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