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Handhelds Hardware

Saint Song Releases "Linux-Compatible" Mini PC 81

Posted by Hemos from the but-how-the-hell-does-it-work dept.
10 Yogurts writes: "Saint Song Corp. recently announced the release of the Cappuccino G1, successor to their acclaimed pocket PC, the Espresso. Although no longer a "pocket PC," due to the docking bay's features being integrated into the unit, the Cappuccino is a very small (and very, very cool) set-top box--and Saint Song is specifically touting "Linux compatibility." What does the Cappuccino have that the Espresso didn't? How about S-Video and RCA outs, Ethernet, swappable DVD-ROM/CD-RW drive, V.90 modem, 16-bit sound, IrDA support, more bus ports, and a new chipset (i810E), to name a few. Impress Watch (Japanese text) has several photos of the box, including two interior shots. Tsukomo, also in Japanese, has even more photos, and is selling the units for ¥84,800 (about US$720)." It looks like a sleek little device - and is cheaper then the iPaq I bought from the shady looking store in NYC. But does anyone have more detailed information? Please post below, if so.
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Saint Song Releases "Linux-Compatible" Mini PC

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  • Re:Short of digital audio out (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Hard technically? Not hard at all.

    Hard legally? Very.

  • You are a moron! (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    They wern't compairing it to the nifty ARM based linux compatible handheld computer. They were compairing it to the Compaq Ipaq low profile desktop. (compaq lables a buch of stuff ipaq now)

  • Re:144 pin DIMM? (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    My anonymous brother, though rude, is quite correct. The 144-pin SoDIMM (small-outline DIMM) is quite standard and has been since the days of EDO.

  • Bill sez (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    From the company site...

    See What Bill Gates talked about Espresso PC in WinHEC
    2000

    "... This device is called an Espresso PC, and this is actually a full active PC. It has a socket 370
    810-based motherboard, so it will support Celeron or Pentium IIs,
    128-megabyte of RAM, a 12-gigabyte hard drive. You'll notice right here is the touch pad for the
    PC. So this is a fully functional, very active PC. On this one edge you'll see the ports for mouse,
    keyboard, video, audio on the side. And if you want to add USB here, and if you want to add
    networking, there's a spot for docking port, networking, CD-ROM, DVD. So you have a
    companion device. So we're seeing this explosion of not only features and functionality in the PC,
    but the PC is being driven to different new and exciting form factors. ...
    " said Bill Gates, WinHEC 2000, New Orleans, Apr. 25, 2000.
    Detail of this speech:
    http://www.microsoft.com/billgates/speeches/04-2 5w inhec00.htm
  • For some of us (ok, maybe just me) the smaller the better. Right now I use old laptops as my servers to cut down on noise and space. I would like to buy a "slim-pc" like the ones made by Sony or HP, but the cost is pretty high and they're still bulkier than this little puppy.

    Oh, and just to note, current laptops are too big for my tastes since I commute on a motorcycle and its a pain to try and safely wedge a Dell Latitude into my tail bag.
  • Look at the G4 cube, aside from being cute, it is also very small (and quiet). Sony and HP also have slim-top PC's

    I'm sure that most people who only have 1-3 computers have no problem with tower cases, but for those of us that have 5+ boxes and only one spare bedroom to shove them into, these are exactly what we're looking for.

  • Well, a lot of milk and some cacao. Mostly it is a matter of taste what you prefer.
  • Cisco makes small, set-top box routers. They own the market, for god sakes, they're worth more than Microsoft.

    They've also priced themselves out of the market for all but enterprise customers. Sure, that's a great business strategy, and they're making more money than ever, but it still leaves a gap at the lower end of the market. A home user with an ADSL line isn't going to be able to afford a Cisco box. Nor will a small business.

  • I suppose the niche market is impromtue Halflife/Quake/Diablo Lan parties.

    To me, the obvious use is as a router and/or firewall box. The manufacturers obviously disagree, because they've only supplied it with a single network port. With two network ports, I'm sure these machines would have a real niche market to sell to. As it is, I just can't see who's going to buy them...

  • 100BT on the LAN and USB out via DSL or frame relay makes a _great_ compact SOHO router.

    I wish that were true. Here in the UK, if you get the USB ADSL option, you can only connect a single computer to it (unless BT are lying to me, which I wouldn't completely rule out...). Thus, I need to get the Ethernet option. I guess I could try and find a USB10baseT converter, and use that to plug into the ADSL box, but it's a lot more hassle than just finding something with 2 network ports. A Qube or Netwinder would be great, but both are waaaay overpriced for what I'm after.

  • ZOLOFT RULZ!!!

    Yeah I'm as limp as a soggy piece of bread, but I'm HAPPY, ok? And it's not like I had a sex life to begin with...

    --
    "How many six year olds does it take to design software?"

  • For some of us (ok, maybe just me) the smaller the better.

    And for others, the quieter the better - which tends to go hand-in-hand with size and power requirements, infortunately. Damn I want a quiet PC.
  • hehe, we are the lovers of the old tactile keyboards that sounded like a anti-aircraft gun chugging out shells as you typed ;)
  • I don't see why this machine is being compared to an iPAQ.. This is a "set-top box" not a handheld. Don't make us all excited for a *NICE* Linux handheld when it isn't anything of the sort.
  • I stand corrected, but I think that it should mention that it is talking about the IPAQ Desktop rather than the "iPAQ" which *I* feel is the handheld :)

    Just my worthless .02
  • Itself could it part of the new trend these days the non-pc. Why have a real computer when you can "something better" an easy to use system that is easy to use and set up. This what is to come in the future.
  • I used to commute to work via bicycle. Back then, I had a laptop case that was a backpack (also had a standard handle). You might give it a look. Targus made it.

    Chris
  • And i believe i have a couple of clarifications to make - The espresso also has s-video out, it doesn't have rca, but it has an internal 16-bit soundcard. Saintsong where talking about "linux compabílity" on the espresso too - i havent tried it yet though. Mine is equipped with a dvd docking station, 128m and p3 700mhz, under windows it doesn't feel like a 700, it's actually rather slow but it's kinda cute laying there on my tv playing divx's connected to the wireless k/b and mouse ;) , sucks having to use usb ethernet though...
  • er... pII even...
  • Get the Gateway Connected Home Audio Player thingie. I have one and it's absolutely wunnerful.
  • It looks like a sleek little device - and is cheaper then the iPaq I bought from the shady looking store in NYC.

    Hey those guys aren't shady. It just low overhead. You can get some great deals as long as you know what you are buying. I've gotten discontinued laptops from them for well under $1000.

    Caveat emptor.
  • While the Espresso/Cappucino line is cute, it still lacks monitor/keyboard/mouse. I think the best alternative right now is the Sony Vaio line.

    My Emperor BlackPerl Z (a Vaio 505TR with a custom install of Red Hat 6.2) is slightly smaller than the US-standard letter paper my resume is printed on, and about an inch thick. Weighs about five pounds with the battery on it. Six or seven when you add power supply, port replicator, minimouse (I *hate* glidepads), and floppy drive. No CD, but with 100bT ethernet in the PCMCIA port, and a 6GB HDD (the new ones come with 12), who needs a CD? If you really want one, you can get either a PC-card one (the preferable solution) or a parallel port backpacker (if you HAVE to use 'net and CD at the same time).

    Sony is also selling a palmtop Vaio with a 400MhZ Pentium III or (coming RSN) a 600 MhZ Crusoe... it's about the size of a Disney videotape case, similarly light, with a 1024x480 display and full-size keyboard. Surely that will fit in the tailbag of your Hawg or rice burner. Yeah, they're a little pricey, but they're damn nice boxen. I recommend them if lightness or size takes precedent over Dell's vaunted customer service... which it often does, like our friend the motorcyclist.

    http://www.emperorlinux.com/ [emperorlinux.com] [shameless plug from a very satisfied user] if you're a penguinhead... if not, check your local CompUniverse...

    --
    Intelligence is the ability to avoid doing work, yet get the work done.
    -- Linus Torvalds

  • With two network ports, I'm sure these machines would have a real niche market to sell to. As it is, I just can't see who's going to buy them...
    Whaddyamean, it doesn't have two network ports. It's got a pair of USB ports, no? Yeah, yeah, it's not 100BT, but who here has more than a T1 outbound? Not this ubergeek... 100BT on the LAN and USB out via DSL or frame relay makes a _great_ compact SOHO router.

    Now, if you've got more bandwidth than G-d, sure, then you're going to want something better, but I daresay you'd not be trying to do it on the cheap, either. Just plunk down the five grand for a Watchguard Firebox and be done with it. (although some of you purists out there will want to wait until they come out with a Linux front end.... :)

    --
    See, you not only have to be a good coder to create a system like Linux,
    you have to be a sneaky bastard too ;-)
    [Linus Torvalds in < 4rikft$7g5@linux.cs.Helsinki.FI > ]

  • http://arstechnica.com/reviews/2q00/espresso/espre sso-1.html [arstechnica.com]

    "there once was a big guy named lou
    whose limericks would end at line two"
  • There's a big 'ol Bluefin floppin' on the deck named jjsjeff. Trolling does work!:)
  • I couldn't see the milk frother attachement either? What is going on?
  • Shame it's missing some sort of digital audio output. How hard can it be?

    The dell/rio/empeg home audio reciever box is similarly impaired, which is even less forgivable.
  • I'd like to know how much heat these puppies put out, and how many you could fit in to a 1U rack space. 1000 machines/rack, anyone? I'll bet the
    power cube situation would be a *bear*.
  • The company that I work for has 8 or 10 of these on order already. I will be beating on one as soon as we get them in and I am willing to post the results here. We had good luck getting Linux to run on the Espresso, even though the USB enet took a bit of work to get running with the 2.2 kernel. Steve Fuller
  • Re: the heat buildup and reboot problems. Have you ever noticed that your car fan keeps on running after you shut off the car? That's because there's all that residual heat left in the engine block. Same thing happens with computers.

    If you've got a small computer running at the limit of it's thermal capacity when then fan is on - if it's turned off the temperature can quickly rise if the fan isn't left running. Then the temperature is too warm and problems ensue. You don't see this problem on most machines because they either let the fan run for a little after it's shut off or they can deal with the excess heat (ie big boxen with their (relatively) massive fans and lots of space inside)
  • I had a little compact system like one of these and I ended up scavanging it for parts. It was cool, I liked it, and it was portable (It was a monorail - like this only with a 10.4" flat panel on the frone and a floppy drive), but the power supply on the damn thing blew and they wanted to sell me one for over $200.

    I know - anything that is optimized for weight or whatever is bound to have proprietary parts, but I'd like to see what chipset and some reputation from a company that sells something like this before I would think about buying one again.

    oh yeah - and no PCMCIA slot?

  • That's strange, I thought that SDRAM DIMM's were 168 pin, unless this unit uses the so-called "notebook" DIMMs.
  • ... it's a wearable computer! Ok, so it's a bit larger than most of those, but if the price is really ~ $720 (US), then prepare to be frankenborged. Most of it should be obvious: just find the apropriate data I/O devices, plug them in and place it in an apropriately ventilated bag. Only thing I didn't see was a portable power source (did I just miss it, being just barely awake?) Presumably the device has an internal transformer which takes a little space; open box, remove standard power unit, replace with portable fusion reactor. (What?! didn't get yours?)

    If you've got the $5k for an M2 monitor, you've almost got a sweet wearable for a total of $6k. That doesn't look bad to me; but then neither does cannibalizing by laptop's monitor and making a computer out of one of those nice leather paper pad covers.

    More and more I think the wearable computer market is so small because no one is really trying.

    Caveat: I just woke up. A logic functions are presently reduced to mathematical ones.
  • Then it'll be great for lan parties. No fuss, and very portable.

  • Cisco makes small, set-top box routers. They own the market, for god sakes, they're worth more than Microsoft. Is some little Japanese company going to try and take market share from them? I think not.
  • Their "list price" is usually well above the MSRP, and if you haggle, they'll bring it down, "special for you", to a price just around MSRP. No sweet deal.

    Best you come armed with an ad from a competitor or a national chain showing what street price really is for the item you want.
  • http://www.compaq.com/products/handhelds/images/L2 27262-B21.jpg

    Now all you need is a portable TFT display, maybe one of those cheaper Samsung flat panels, just saw off the pedestal. Don't know if it needs a special video card tho.

  • Man, I wish I had a Beowulf cluster of these.

  • Here's some information in English:
    http://www.saintsong.com.tw/it/english/prod/cg1.ht m
  • What, there's only one shady looking store in NYC? ;-)
  • Try taking the hard drive apart, and set it on the desk in front of you as you render video. If you use one of the old full height maxtors it is almost deafening.

    echo $email | sed s/[A-Z]//g | rot13
  • Well, not the Cappucino one, but with the espresso, figure out how to wire in a lcd and small (wince devices had a small keyboard) and you have a full, portable, very functional Linux system. What would ya use it for? PORTABLE MP3's! Will it support VBR? YOU BETCHA! Will it support higher then 128 KBps? YUP! I wouldn't mind having one for on the bus. With a wireless internet connection would make it even better. It's also faster then the Xybernaut! :) Hey I wonder if you can order the Xybernaut wrist Keyboard, and wrist LCD and make it work with this espresso machine! :)
  • ... it's a wearable computer! Ok, so it's a bit larger than most of those, but if the price is really ~ $720 (US), then prepare to be frankenborged. Most of it should be obvious: just find the apropriate data I/O devices, plug them in and place it in an apropriately ventilated bag. Only thing I didn't see was a portable power source (did I just miss it, being just barely awake?) Presumably the device has an internal transformer which takes a little space; open box, remove standard power unit, replace with portable fusion reactor. (What?! didn't get yours?)

    Yeah, both the Cappuccino and the Espresso have been discussed quite a bit on the wear-hard mailing list. Alas, the problem is indeed the power consumption: the Cappuccino clocks in at an entirely unacceptable 54W (peak). For comparison, you can build 300 MHz Pentium systems that use less than 10W, and some StrongARM designs are about 1W.

    Cheers,
    -j.

  • I'd love to use it as

    MP3 read/write

    Cd and DVD player
    Hook it on my Home Cinema
    Only twist : digitize video input... And no way to dipatch a blinking 12:00.
    Anyone interested ?

  • www.ibuypower.com sells these.. they are the authorized use reseller. look for the "Pocket EPC-2"
  • After March 24 (release of BSD-based MacOS X) get an iMac or a G4 Cube. Both are fanless; the only noise comes from the speakers (on the iMac) or the Hard Drive.
  • My work bought one of the PocketPC's. it's a nice novelty item - small and good-looking - but little else.

    I encountered 2 problems with it-

    1- It overheats. if you leave it turned on for a while, and then try to reboot, you're out of luck - you'll have to let it cool down for 15-20 minutes before you can power it up again. it just gets way too hot, and i don't see how the Espresso will be any different.
    On a side note, can someone explain to me why it is that when it overheats it hangs on boot up? it seems strange that it works fine while running, but then at boot up it hangs - is it some bios check its doing?

    2- size/shape is unwieldy. See the setup they have in the photo? where it's plugged into the computer? that's fine and all, but the cables are so thick compared to the pocketpc that you really need to brace the pocketpc down, or else it'll end up on the floor, like ours did. (though it is durable! a meter drop to the ground and it's still working!) And of course if you plan on bracing it down, keep in mind it needs lots of ventilation.

    Otherwise, we haven't really found a use for it. sure it's small, but so is a laptop, and a laptop comes with a battery and pcmcia slots as well. I bet this thing would go nicely in your car as an mp3 player, but once summer comes around, it'll just overheat too much.

    -f

  • Ok, $700 for the Cappoccino, and $50,000 for my mini-satillite. Hmmm, just about $49,700 shy of what I need.

  • iMacs use 144 pin DIMMs as well.

    The factory installed DIMM (or any DIMM to be installed in the lower (harder to get to) socket requires an Low Profile (skinny ceramic on the ICs) SO-DIMM.

  • What this needs is a cheap "dumb" terminal that folds up like a laptop (keyboard and diplay). Then you'd have a travel machine (DVD,MP3,etc.). But -- I agree -- why not a laptop at that point. Someone should take something like this and glom it onto a cheap projector, then add a wireless keyboard. That would be a cool travel package -- watch 6'x4' DVD on your hotel wall.
  • For some of us (ok, maybe just me) the smaller the better.

    I'm nostalgic for the good old days, when men were men and desktops were built like tanks and the fans sounded like jet engines. Powering up a computer was an event with those things.
    --
  • boxen? You mean boxes?
    boxen has a diffrent meaning;
    Boxen Box"en (bo^ks"'n), a.
    Made of boxwood; pertaining to, or resembling, the box
    . (Buxus). R.

    The faded hue of sapless boxen leaves. --Dryden.
    ---
  • Does it implement HTCPCP ?

    It's name would suggest yes but it doesn't seem to be apparent on the specs.

  • Re:Umm... why? (Score:3)

    by doctor_oktagon ( 157579 ) on Monday February 12, 2001 @04:01AM (#438891)
    I was wondering, why get one of these new fangled 'set top mini box PCs', when you could buy one of these old-fashioned 'normal PCs' at half the price?

    If you go look at the pictures, you will realise this device is hardly larger than the CD drive!

    Any "normal" PC is a large clunky beast in comparison. This thing looks smaller than a Dreamcast.

  • Me too.

    Although the clicking of the hard drive heads is strangely satisfying, I hate the rest of the noise from drives and fans.

  • Well, this story is old and about to be archived - the only possibility for you to read this is by checking your user page... Here's hoping.

    I would actually be interested in your thoughts about the Capuccino and the Espresso. I bought an Espresso a while back, and was quite happy with it, although it was a bitch to make it work with the USB ethernet. Were you ever able to make the USB ethernet work when the CD/docking was plugged on? I wasn't, and would appreciate pointers.

    If you rather email me: carlos@$my_nick_here.org

    Thanks,
    Carlos.
    --
    If you want to live in a country ruled by religion, move to Iran.

  • I just wanted one of these, and a titanium macintosh to link it up to.
    But what's the point without a 400 bps network? Get back to the blueprints...
  • Has anyone noticed how much the packaging resembles Apple's Powerbook packaging? This unit reminds me of an IA/Cube/Laptop hybrid. AJ
  • I would want one of these for an in car mp3 server, it's the perfect size. I have thought about looking at 1u rackmounts to put in my trunk, but this thing could sit under my seat!. I gotta wonder tho, how resistant to bumps it is.. and heat (shut off)... It would also be great for using at the concert hall i work for. Small enough to get locked away and easily portable.
  • Why do people buy Imacs and G4 Cubes.
    Because a normal PC is clumsy and has too many cables.

    I would trade my normal PC for this computer any day, it is easily fast enough and it wont take any space om my writing desk.

    I think PC's like this will be an important part of the future of desktop computing. But that is just my opinion.

    Whats yours?

  • Buy one here... (Score:3)

    by hirschma ( 187820 ) on Monday February 12, 2001 @06:16AM (#438898)
    A bit more expensive than the Japanese price mentioned in the article... never heard of the vendor before...

    They list the old model, too. [ibuypower.com]
  • Of course, your comment is slightly invalid because StrongARMs are made by Intel!

    You're right though - why anyone would use an x86 in one of these devices is beyond me. Surely ARM [arm.com] has that market sown up by now?
  • Yes - but StrongARMs were designed by Intel (well, they were actually designed by Digital, but Intel have bought the rights and airbrushed out the history :-) ).

    From the South? The south of England, yes...

  • What is it with you jackasses and your hacked up geekspeak?
  • iPAQ is name for entire line of products, not just for handhelds. This could be compared to iPaq desktop, see http://www5.compaq.com/products/internetdevices/iP AQ_Desktop.html [compaq.com]
  • Except that this is not better.

    It's the same crap in a smaller package.

    Speaking of which...

    At iBUYPOWER.com, they have a 933 MHz option for this system! I am skeptical that such a box can keep itself cool...

  • fyi, here's another new "tiny" linux-based set-top box from Asia. This one, called the canD [linuxdevices.com] contains a National Semiconductor MediaGX processor, with 8MB ROM and 16MB SDRAM memory. The unit provides 2 USB ports for connection of external peripherals such printers and digital cameras, and a 10/100 Mbit Ethernet port for connection to the Internet. Other external connections include stereo audio output, video out, and S-Video. It's internal embedded linux OS is XTinux [linuxdevices.com] from Coventive and it uses the AXIS NetFront [linuxdevices.com] browser.

  • Umm... why? (Score:3)

    by kyz ( 225372 ) on Monday February 12, 2001 @03:55AM (#438905) Homepage
    I was wondering, why get one of these new fangled 'set top mini box PCs', when you could buy one of these old-fashioned 'normal PCs' at half the price? Both of them are Linux-compatible, which is surely the important part?
  • Whenever I see these things I keep thinking where do these things fit in ?. Way back I was given an Ergo power"brick" which was a 386 sx25 in a "handy" brick format (and weight). The idea was similar but the brick looked cooler with it's purple enamel coating =).

    Surely these things (as cool as they are) will be squeezed out by laptops ? I suppose the niche market is impromtue Halflife/Quake/Diablo Lan parties.
    --

  • My thoughts exactly. I have a feeling that battery life might suck however - even a normal laptop battery is bigger than my visor handheld, and I'd expect more than a couple hours battery life from such a device before I'd really be willing to invest that much.
  • nice try... that is the link from the discussion header...

    no easy karma stealin' today...
  • I would like to have something like this for LAN parties, but the GFX is not good enough. If they could make an improvement there, this would be an awesome machine for a LAN party, you could just plug it into a TV and rock. blade

  • Au contraire, my friend!

    I only have a 4'x3' cupboard, which houses 2 boxen, two printers, a scanner, two monitors, and my various speakers. And a desk. And a chair. But would I swap my monster cases for these? No, because I like to be able to control EXACTLY what goes on inside them.

    Folk who want a computer, but not a dirty great beige box, are the niche market here. They also tend to be able to afford LCD displays and such too...

  • I beg to differ. Consider this extract from the hackers dictionary ( http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/jargon.html#boxe n )

    Node:boxen, Next:boxology, Previous:boxed comments, Up:= B =

    boxen /bok'sn/ pl.n.

    [very common; by analogy with VAXen] Fanciful plural of box often encountered in the phrase `Unix boxen', used to describe commodity Unix hardware. The connotation is that any two Unix boxen are interchangeable.

    AyeThangYu ;-)

  • Well, this actually fits in PERFECTLY with a project I've been working on... a Linux-based car MP3 player. Up till now I was looking at making my own case, complete with removeable hard drive bay, right-angle sound card adapter, and built-in inverter for this.

    MUCH easier if I can just build a docking bay and take the whole computer inside with me. Especially if I can just plug it into my cable modem and use it as my desktop computer, too.

    My only problem is how to figure out whether it's in the bay or not... when I'm in the docking bay, I want to use the infrared port to get ASCII characters from the MP3 player remote, and redirect the output to the parallel port for displaying on my HUD... any ideas of an easy way to do that? Anyone?

    Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, wouldn't that be an awesome use of this thing? Have a built-in disconnected mode where it understands that the input/output paradigm has fundamentally changed. Go from VGA to parallel for graphic or text LCD displays, use the sound output for additional feedback, and come up with several different alternative input methods... the quick list that comes to mind is to use speech recognition, a generic remote decoder, and a USB-based mini keyboard/control board that is flush with the case when plugged in.

    Maybe use the chord system for one-handed typing, plus common player controls which can be useful in so many apps... (previous, next, play/pause, stop, rewind, fast forward) Add a decent battery with a belt clip, and you have a wearable computer.

    Now if only I can get the USB periphs I REALLY want... VR glasses, ergonomic adaptive shoes, and smart wheels on my skateboard all come to mind...

  • I could imagine maybe it being somewhat portable with some good VR glasses maybe And can you get these without a proc or RAM? I can't be the only person with a spare CPU laying around.... and I was planning on using that celey 466 ina new linux box anyway.... -Caino Don't touch my .sig there!
  • One question: How does it handle heat disipation without a fan? Seems to me that touchpad's gonna get a little warm, isn't it?
  • ok looks cool, but the bottom line is - can u get anything useful done on it. With 810 chipset, battery life is to small to use it as a notebook/pocketpc, and it looks pretty bulky. Better off with a vaio
  • be aware that this is for the japanese market.
    Cuteness here sells- whether or not it works or not is irrelevant. A small cute colourful pc will be extremely popular
  • i am from the deep south and i have friends in high places
  • I stopped by one of SaintSong's authorized dealers and picked up two Cappuccino units - I love em (the power light is BLUE!!)... Anyways, I was surprised to see the cost on each unit was almost $400 less than IBuyPower.com... If you got it from them - I feel sorry for ya, they are making WAY TOO MUCH on the units.

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