Hacking Acer's Set-Top Box 97
Buell Smelt writes: "I found this site about these set top boxes out there, and it seems kind of cool, now that I'm bored with my iopener... http://www.phoenixgarage.net/ Seems like a bigger challenge than the iopener in some ways, but maybe not. I just like the fact that it has NTSC/PAL out, so I can use it as a home MP3 player in my livingroom and don't have to haul a monitor out there. It also has the same form factor as most home stereos. It's a lot less expensive than the iopener, that's a plus. There are some floating around in the 'Internet Appliance' area of eBay. I guess you can also turn an old VGA monitor into a TV with these things. That's kind of handy too."
What I am looking for... (Score:2)
It's too bad these boxes couldn't be used as a router/firewall of some type - you can only put in one NIC. But they can be used like they were designed - I am just wondering why there isn't more embeddable Linux stuff (TVLinux is the one promising thing - but they ask sooo much for the distribution - but if they can do, others can too).
Worldcom [worldcom.com] - Generation Duh!
Re:Acer's LOVELY reputation (Score:1)
I wouldn't be surprised that if your notebook is still working to your satisfaction that your model is a direct copy of the TI notebook design.
Grow your own.. (Score:2)
Plus I'm lazy. The All-in wonder would really only be usefull to Windows boxen (especially with all the cool software.)
Oh... And the patent's pending ;)
Re:Acer's LOVELY reputation (Score:1)
Can't ask for much more than that.
Also had a roommate that had an Acer computer while I was in college. Wasn't the best machine out there, and was extremely propriatary, but otherwise, a good solid computer. He's still using it -- not as a gaming machine or desktop, but it's just fine for a mp3 server.
I wouldn't buy one of their computers, the one I played with was too hard to upgrade. However, I can't say that it was a total turd, like a Packard Bell.
Acer OC'ing... (Score:2)
Heck - I just took a good look and realized that the tables don't turn out at all - going to have to fix that. Basically, there are a few tables silk-screened on the board. One indicates some settings that seem to be related to bus speed settings (like a jumper setting table), but there aren't any jumpers near the processor to mod. It is either some kind of settings that are done with solder jumping, or in a special hidden area in the BIOS...
Supposedly, though (I haven't tried this yet myself - Chris Healy has), it plays MP3s well, just like it is, without overclocking. Maybe it is the MP3 files he is using - I had built an MP3 player for my truck, using an AMD 586/133, and I had to OC it as well to get it to play MP3s nicely.
Maybe this machine is architected slightly differently to alleviate the issue?
Worldcom [worldcom.com] - Generation Duh!
Re:Where do you get one? (Score:1)
Re:Seems like a bit of publicity for an add on e-b (Score:2)
The wording may look similar, but I assure everybody that I don't have ANYTHING to do with the Ebay auction...
Worldcom [worldcom.com] - Generation Duh!
Re:What I am looking for... (Score:1)
Re:What I am looking for... (Score:2)
Or, if you have another router on the Ethernet, you can use a single NIC as a network translator -- make this device the "gateway" of devices which will use the translations services, and this device would be configured to pass the translated (ie, NAT) packets to the other router. The easiest configuration probably involves aliasing the NIC to have several IP addresses.
Re:So how about putting tivo software on this? (Score:2)
There are a lot of misconceptions about the TiVo. The 133mhz Elan in this box beats the tar out of the cpu in a TiVo - a PowerPC 403 at 50mhz - way slower than anything ever put in a macintosh. IBM puts them on RAID controllers. they are Low End ppc. Embedded class. Wimps.
The major reason the tivo works so well is because of all the dedicated hardware in it. With a tweaked kernel, a hardware mpeg encoder, and a hardware mpeg decoder, there's no reason this box couldn't do something similar - but without a couple of open PCI slots and a considerable development effort i don't see it happening.
Alright... (Score:2)
Thanks...
Worldcom [worldcom.com] - Generation Duh!
Re:So how about putting tivo software on this? (Score:1)
FP
Re:New Stuff (Score:1)
Re:What I am looking for... (Score:3)
The only loss is that you're using one NIC twice, so your effective bandwidth is cut in half. This also screams for a full duplex solution, since it's guaranteed that there will be roughly equal traffic in/out. This allows one-way traffic to be roughly full speed, but bidirectional traffic will be cut in half. (Effectively, half duplex using this solution acts as 'quarter duplex' and full duplex works as 'half duplex' since every packet in needs to go out as well).
This downside isn't really that bad at all if you use something like a 10/100 hub/switch ($40-50 average). Here your effective bandwidth is so high, who cares if you cut it down by a bit?
I'm a bit confused as to why people think you can't use a one-NIC PC as a router/firewall... I've already done it several times.
Re:How much is your time worth? (Score:2)
When I bought this box, I was on the Webplayer coop list - I thought getting one of those would be fun. But after purchasing this box, and seeing nobody doing anything on it - I decided not to get a webplayer (and they recently had a problem with paypal - so maybe it was for the better), and look into what this box can do.
Yeah, it's cheesy - you can't put it in the bathroom easily. But that isn't what it was designed for! It was designed to go with your TV. To act as a smart terminal for a backend server, dishing out a funky version of html (that has, for example, tags to control the TV window size and position, in addition to others) - to bring about a form of interactive TV.
Basically, what would happen is the user of the box would turn on the box, and his cable service. The program that was on would have special data in the VBI of the video (same area as closed captioning), that would cause the box to go to one of the servers and get one of these special HTML documents. The HTML would cause the custom browser to "frame" or overlay the video with the web page information, that could be navigated as the program progressed. The video program could control the box, and the user could control the box as well. So, it was a two way interaction.
You don't need much power for that.
This box has the power of around a p75. Think outside the box, here - a P75 is a lot for this type of thing.
I remember when a p75 was a high-end machine (and a good 486 was over $1000)! Come on, people...
Worldcom [worldcom.com] - Generation Duh!
Re:Alright... (Score:2)
There's no reason one Ethernet card can't bind to multiple IP addresses - this is 'IP aliasing', and Linux has had it for a while. What it does is creates several 'aliased' Ethernet devices called (if the first is called eth0) eth0:0, eth0:1, etc.
So, go look up the HOWTO on IP Aliasing, and get that working (not really that hard - it's just a kernel module). Then, setup the firewall as if eth0:0 was a separate Ethernet card (i.e. eth1).
Physically, you just need a hub - plug the device with outside access to the Net into it, plug the settop box into it, and plug other machines into it as well.
My guess is you could easily - easily - handle firewalling + MP3 playing under Linux. No sweat. My 486/66 tweaked heavily plays MP3s fine, and you barely need any processing power to do routing/firewalling.
A bit of info... (Score:2)
Also, when using the monitor, yes - you can view TV signals (so yeah, I guess this would be a way of using your monitor as a TV)...
Worldcom [worldcom.com] - Generation Duh!
Re:Alright... (Score:2)
I guess why people think only a dual-NIC solution will work is because people are used to thinking in terms of "pipes" - forgetting that it can go both ways on a network. A one NIC firewall/router - now I am definitely going to have to set one up...
Worldcom [worldcom.com] - Generation Duh!
Possibly Need Q-Tips? (Score:2)
If I had a warehouse in which to hold such a thing, and didn't have to pay shipping, it might be feasible to have such a Cray. My Alpha 433 box is probably more powerful, mind you.
It's pretty valid to be a bit schizophrenic about it: On the one hand, that Cray may have cost $10M to build way back when, and it's a shame to waste that; on the other hand, if I can get a machine that's more powerful for $5K today, then I'd stupid to offer more than $5K for the Cray, unless I felt some special sentimentality.
I feel no sentimentality for some Acer set top boxes, so I'm certainly not inclined to overvalue them.
In contrast, I feel a little sentimental towards my Digital Multia; the case engineering is so nice that I keep it around even though it doesn't work anymore. It probably cost $5K to build, and people have literally been giving them away of late.
There's some sort of balance between economic rationality and sentimentality; it's easy to bash it by heading to one extreme or another. Of course, we're talking about Acer set top boxes here, so I doubt sentimentality enters in heavily...
Re:My comments... (Score:1)
Good Luck..
What kind of software is out there to build a tivo (Score:1)
Re:no need to haul a monitor (Score:1)
http://www.svideotorca.com/
Get involved
Re:Acer's LOVELY reputation (Score:1)
Re:no need to haul a monitor (Score:1)
My comments... (Score:5)
One could say it is old hardware. But the fact is that they were manufactured in 1998, but they haven't really been deployed. You wouldn't believe the tight grip the companies involved have on this thing, with regard to specifications and settings. There are still several jumpers on the main PCB that no one knows what they do, or what thier purpose is.
Acer won't tell me anything - only to say that such information would be "very expensive" for an individual.
Liberate wasn't forthcoming at all.
Neither of these companies would tell me, or sell me, squat. All of the information obtained has come from other sources and my own experimentation.
Actually, it is almost understandable - you see, I wasn't supposed to have gotten one of those boxes through "outside" channels. I got mine off of Ebay (for much less than $100 - the $100 figure is based on ideas me and my contact have been throwing around). From what I understand, they aren't available from the guy I bought mine from anymore (he sold his last one a while back - at least, that is what he told me).
Could you build a Tivo with one of these? No, unlikely. But think about what can be done...
Sure, it is only a souped up 486, but it can play MP3s. Chris Healy has done this, and he has also gotten Nintendo and Sega emulators running on it as well. This thing is meant to use an embedded OS - a small, fast, and preferably real-time OS. Think small applications - things that don't tax the CPU. The "built in" browser software is actually pretty powerful - if you could get one of these boxes with the OS and browser on it, your could set up a WebTV type box for doing any number of things - set up a "proxy server" to browse through on another box, and supply the funky HTML it uses (detailed on the Liberate site), and you could do some pretty cool X-10 control stuff (I can think of a way to do an X-10 wireless camera control system, with the video in the corner, and the controls arranged around it). Or, you could set it up to be a "WebTV" type system for others, using any ISP you want.
That is just with the built in software - put in your own OS and software, and you can do almost anything. The point is not to think of this thing as a general purpose PC type system...
What has me excited about it, is the fact that supposedly Acer distributed over 50,000 of these boxes. So where are they? Why haven't they been deployed? Are they just waiting for the right time? If not, will they just be put in a landfill? Will they flood on the surplus market in the near future?
AOLTV uses a similar product, but it is more powerful, and not made by Acer (I am not even sure if it is PC compatible in any way). I think these set-top boxes are going to be a big thing, in the near future. Maybe I will be wrong - but a lot of time, money and energy has been put in place by a lot of major players recently (and almost quietly, I might add).
So - think small. Think of the device as a front-end device, not a do-it-all box. Think ASP like applications - what can be done?
Worldcom [worldcom.com] - Generation Duh!
Re:New Stuff (Score:2)
Re:Specs on the box (Score:1)
Well, Linux can use NFS for swap and storage, so these could be used on a LAN with a file server. A "network computer" configuration. Or perhaps just an X terminal. For that matter, if the NIC supports a boot PROM it could be booted from the network.
Specs on the box (Score:4)
Basically, the units are shipped in many different configs. In fact many times it's custom to the buyer. Typical config is a 150Mhz Intel Clone (usually cyrix) proccessor and about 4-8 megs of RAM. There is also some flash RAM for the OS/Liberate stuff.
The reason there are a lot of these boxes out on the market is the lack of RAM. The liberate software stores a lot of information on a central server that would normally be stored locally (such as cookies). This made the browser very slow on high load systems.
Also, because of the limited RAM, there really isn't anywhere to go with the box. It's never going to play real video or the ilk. Almost everything is SMT on the mainboard. You COULD upgrade the memory if you had the correct tools. People have done this their palms and tivo's. Although at some point I'd question just buying a normal PC.
The video chipset is an older Trident type. You could probally get the box to use the Video Features under 95 assuming you could still find the drivers, but none of the video overlay is supported in Linux right now, and the chipset was really only used in a few notebook computers and the NT 150. I doubt anyone is working on this.
The modem is an ISA slot. You can use a NE2000 nic is this slot just fine. Some of the older linksys cards actually line up rather well.
Some of the NT 150's had built in smart card reader/writters. It's not clear from the picture if the model has the hardware. This is really what the box would be most useful for. Assuming someone could scratch together a linux driver for the smartcard device you could use it to clone smartcards.
In general the Liberate stuff can be removed if they have the liberate flashing utilities. The ISP generally had some utilities to configure the hardware type. Usually to config if the box had a modem, DSL, or ethernet. You should be abel to erase it with those.
In general it's an okay set top box, but the lack of support for the video chipset and lack of memory does present a barrier to being a good linux box.
Re:Specs on the box (Score:2)
Re:Um, It's Cheap Because It's Cheap (Score:3)
When will all these loser learn that to be a 1337 h4x0r you must waste and throw away a lot of expensive hardware. Sheesh, I bet they're working on wearable computing right now, dorks.
Re:So how about putting tivo software on this? (Score:1)
Not to mention that TiVos use PowerPC processors. Thus, the binary wouldn't run on the Acer box even if you could extract it from the TiVo.
---
Check in...OK! Check out...OK!
Empty Set-Top Box? (Score:1)
Re:no need to haul a monitor (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:(not just) NTSC to VGA box (Score:1)
Re:no need to haul a monitor (Score:1)
Re:Alright... (Score:2)
As per the MP3 file playing, I can't really say much about under Linux, but I did have to heavily tweak my 486 to get it to play MP3's without stuttering, plus I had to sacrifice a bit on the quality. Also, don't forget you might be able to overclock other portions of the system as well. I heard something about an ISA slot? Most ISA cards are tolerant to up to 12-15 MHz, if not a bit more, for the bus frequency (This might stem back to older days when certain PCs ran at 12 MHz-ish: I'm not sure, but I don't remember there being multiple clock chips on one of my old Tandys...) While this may not seem like an obvious benefit, it may help out the video, if the video is sharing the ISA bus. If not, don't bother to do it, since while you may speed up your network connection, you might slow down the PC with the additional traffic.
Re:What I am looking for... (Score:1)
Yes, you can, except many cable modem or DSL providers will disconnect customers who do that.
Re:Spoofing modem connections (Score:1)
Handy? (Score:2)
-------
CAIMLAS
This and a Internet Radio (Score:1)
grrrr (Score:3)
Turning those old VGA monitors into TVs... (Score:1)
> into a TV with these things. That's kind of
> handy too
Boy, do I *ever* need 14" colour TV with a lousy refresh rate.
</sarcasm>
The rest of it sounds like a pretty standard port; a lot of hardwork, mind you, but nothing truly *elegant*.
no need to haul a monitor (Score:3)
So how about putting tivo software on this? (Score:2)
Isn't NTSC/PAL European video? (Score:1)
Of course, I don't want to make them too jealous.
Spoofing modem connections (Score:4)
Acer's LOVELY reputation (Score:1)
Acer made something Useful???
Be careful that this latest piece_of_garbage from them doesn't break or fry by itself before ya start hacking it up.
I once had a customer complain soo much about acer workstations crashing and hosing (granted they had Winblows, 10+ hosings and lockups/8hr workday is still uncommon under 95) that we had to eat the cost of 225 of them, and, the cost of 225 "stable" dell machines, and the cost of 3 techs for 3 weeks swapping out the POS'S.
----Fuck Acer, dont ever buy that shit.----------
Plz reply if you are happy with yours, I would like to hear other adventures in Acer.
dig this kewl shit baby...http://www.crazyasscrackers.com/ [crazyasscrackers.com]
Re:Spoofing modem connections (Score:1)
-:-:-:-:-:-:-
view [angelfire.com] my life here and bitch [network54.com] at me here
How much is your time worth? (Score:1)
My time is worth enough that, instead of hacking at some little POS set-top machine, I'd much rather just buy a decent box. I mean, come on! a "decent" box (interpret that however you like) certainly outperforms one of these things, and I can slap one together for, what, $350, maybe? And, generally, I have enough extra parts around my place that I'm only buying a few key items!
I can't even think of an argument that I want to pre-emptively rebut; Most anyone that would be trying to hack these things are going to be in the same boat I am (the I-have-my-own-computer-flea-market type of person) and could easily create a second (or fifteenth) machine out of spare parts with a few strategic purchases.
This isn't to say that the pursuit of hacking into one of these isn't a noble venture in and of itself. I am just talking (or blathering, if you like) about proposing such a task to be some sort of low-cost solution to getting a new Nth machine.
Or am I just getting old at 24?
Re:Um, It's Cheap Because It's Cheap (Score:4)
It doesn't make a bad MP3 player at all - and it makes a decent platform of Sega Genesis and Nintendo emus.
It doesn't have a floppy (well, actually it does, in a way - read the FAQ on what info I have on it), but you can hook up an IDE hard drive easily enough - and there is the 4 meg of flash (once you can get access to it, that is).
No, you won't be able to build a Tivo - but that wasn't the reason for this device - it was meant to supply interactive TV. Think ASP-type applications - that is where the power of this box is...
Worldcom [worldcom.com] - Generation Duh!
Re:Acer's LOVELY reputation (Score:2)
Don't worry about actually buying one of these from Acer - it is unlikely you will even be able to get them to admit that they make them. It took me over a month to get an answer from Acer Taiwan that basically said "get your support elsewhere".
I would imagine that unless you waved a ton of money in their face, and ordered several thousand of the boxes, you wouldn't get anywhere...
Worldcom [worldcom.com] - Generation Duh!
IDE Chipset Caveat (Score:2)
For those of you who don't know that the absence of DMA capabilities means, it means that the CPU has to do a lot of the work to access the IDE drives so while the Drives are being accessed the system is essentially halted for that timeslice. I think the newer Linux Kernels have some kind of workaround for it, but I'm not sure.
Re:Spoofing modem connections (Score:1)
Re:Specs on the box (Score:2)
You say you have one of these boxes - do you mean an actual Acer NT-150, or a similar box? If you have an NT-150 running Linux, are you running it from flash, or a hard drive? Where did you get yours? Email me, please!
Worldcom [worldcom.com] - Generation Duh!
Re:no need to haul a monitor (Score:1)
Re:Um, It's Cheap Because It's Cheap (Score:1)
--
Wouldn't work. (Score:1)
Re:Spoofing modem connections (Score:2)
over the modem that you are trying to spoof.
Seems to me that in order to reverse engineer the protocol, you would need to snoop an actuall conversation.
Re:no need to haul a monitor (Score:1)
Seems like a bit of publicity for an add on e-bay (Score:1)
25 I-opener for sale at one hit!. Odd thing is some of the wording is rather similar to the URL in the original post at http://www.phoenixgarage.net/ [phoenixgarage.net].
Oh how strange there is also a link there from E-Bay. Is someone here trying to get
Or worse still have I just fallen for it and now helped in his plan?
Re:Turning those old VGA monitors into TVs... (Score:1)
Re:How much is your time worth? (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Um, It's Cheap Because It's Cheap (Score:1)
You are thinking of the AMD 5x86-133, which was actually a 486-133. The performance was about the same as a P75. The K5-133 is a real 586 CPU, whose performance was on par with a Pentium 133.
Re:Um, It's Cheap Because It's Cheap (Score:1)
Cryptnotic
Re:How much is your time worth? (Score:1)
$100 its cheaper than most of the custom mp3 players that would do the same job.
Re:Spoofing modem connections (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Isn't NTSC/PAL European video? (Score:1)
PAL: Europe (but not france)
Arska
Re:no need to haul a monitor (Score:1)
Re:Spoofing modem connections (Score:1)
The easy part is this:
Connect a phone cable between the 2 modems.
On the modem you want to have originate the call, type:
ATX0 -- disables sensing for a dial tone
ATDT -- awaits carrier signal
On the modem that will answer, type the ususal:
ATA -- Sends the carrier
Or try (and this will tell you how long this info has been on my HD):
Modem originating the call:
28.8K Fax Modem: ATB15%P1&L1S0=0&W&W1 -- 14.4K Fax Modem: Replace B15 with B9
Modem answering the call:
28.8K Fax Modem: ATB15%P1&L1S0=1&W&W1 -- 14.4K Fax Modem: Replace B15 with B9
The difficult part might be getting the proper command to the built in modem.
If all fails, you could get a little box that simulates a phone line - the one I have is made by "MX Engineering" in Taiwan
Re:Acer's LOVELY reputation (Score:1)
How wrong you are...
I have RIGHT NOW in front of me three boxes made by Acer that have never given me any trouble.
Oh, one "intersting" thing about these boxes is that NONE of them say Acer on the front.
They are Sony, Hitachi, and Fujitsu IDENTICAL boxes, with the ONLY difference being the front label.
I used to have "a few" IBM boxes that were also identical to the remaining three and which also never gave me any trouble.
My guess is you had bad luck...
Um, It's Cheap Because It's Cheap (Score:5)
The flip side of it is that this is pretty old hardware. I would not pay $100 for one of these units; if it's an AMD K5-133, as seems to be the case, this is basically like a Pentium 75 with 8MB of RAM and no disk.
It's not going to make a great MP3 player; it's certainly not going to provide the CPU horsepower needed to build "something like TiVO."
The iOpener represents more "modern" hardware; ditto for the ThinkNIC. I've actually thrown away newer hardware than this, and I'm hardly near to having 1GHz Athlon boxes going to waste...
Where do you get one? (Score:1)
Get involved
Re:no need to haul a monitor (Score:1)
New Stuff (Score:2)
Of course it's less expensive. (Score:1)
Of course it is, ever since NetPliance bundled the service inside the box, the iOpener jumped up in price by $200. They pulled the old version because people were hacking it to turn it into an ultra-cheap x86 machine. After having many units sold but far fewer users registered for the service, though, NetPliance finally grew a brain and bundled the license. Auntie Eula knows no limits.
Re:Acer's LOVELY reputation (Score:1)
BTW, I own an Acer notebook. Works just fine.
-Martin
Re:IDE Chipset Caveat (Score:2)
Worldcom [worldcom.com] - Generation Duh!
Re: (Score:2)
Re:IDE Chipset Caveat (Score:1)
The DMA Issue I was meaning was not speed during operation, perse', but speed during times a high disk access, like Boot up or Scandisk/FSCK. Thats when the bottleneck becomes apperent.
Speaking of which, any ideas if the Acer can me OC'ed? The AMD 5x86 are really great for overclocking provided you have a good cooler.
Re:Spoofing modem connections (Score:1)
An example of a modem that does (2 wire leased line) is the Microcom 28.8P. The Microcom 28.8 Fast+ supports 2 wire and 4 wire leased line modes.
This is off topic, though...
Re:What I am looking for... (Score:1)
If you have a solution to this, I would be very grateful. I would save one perfectly good NE2000, and the wiring would be much simpler.
Re:What I am looking for... (Score:2)
Re:My comments... (Score:2)
Worldcom [worldcom.com] - Generation Duh!
PAL Europe vs PAL in Argentina? (Score:2)
Worldcom [worldcom.com] - Generation Duh!
Re:Handy? (Score:2)
I am interested in hearing your thoughts on this...
Worldcom [worldcom.com] - Generation Duh!
Re:Possibly Need Q-Tips? (Score:2)
Re:Handy? (Score:1)
In the same respect, a good TV tuner would, IMO, be preferable to a hdtv. hdtv's seem to be aimed at those who are not technically savvy enough to mess w/ these things. (computers, etc)
If this is incoherent, I appoligize. 7 minutes till class, and still have to run across campus. :)
-------
CAIMLAS
Re:What I am looking for... (Score:2)
Note that you need to make sure that 255.255.255.255 is routed to eth0:0, rather than eth0 so that the DHCPd boxes can know who really is trying to give them an IP. To do this, add 'route add 255.255.255.255 eth0:0' to the routing table.
I'm not sure if this will work - I hate DHCP, since it gets rid of the benefit of DNS, and I love giving computers names, rather than adsl-dialup-68.east.pacbell.net (fake, I know).
Good luck!
Re:What I am looking for... (Score:2)
The other option is to have a cron job running that periodically pings the gateway on the other side, and when it goes down, simply issue the equivalent of
Re:So how about putting tivo software on this? (Score:2)
According to the FAQ, it's only got a K5-133 in it.
I think it's pretty unlikely that it could do realtime encoding even if it had dedicated MPEG hardware. (Which it doesn't.)
Besides, I don't think the Tivo software is open source, or even available outside of a Tivo.
The Linux OS stuff is open, but that's only a fraction of what ya need.
--K
Re:no need to haul a monitor (Score:1)
Re:Um, It's Cheap Because It's Cheap (Score:1)
TiVO, no, but it'd do just fine for MP3s. You can add a HD, some guy supposedly booted windows on it.
Re:Acer's LOVELY reputation (Score:1)
(not just) NTSC to VGA box (Score:2)
I guess this proves there is a market for choosing a unique name. All I remembered was "cheese". Enter "cheese vga" into Google, and voila!