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Hardware

Tiny Linux Computer Overview 56

Posted by CmdrTaco from the little-yellow-better dept.
SEWilco writes "Linux Devices has an overview of Linux-Friendly Embeddable Computers. It's a nice introduction to commercially available computers the size of a disk drive (biscuit) or smaller (PC/104). This is the type of thing to use for wearable or special-purpose devices." Excellent article.
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Tiny Linux Computer Overview More

Tiny Linux Computer Overview

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  • I know the new Dodge prototypes have this in addtion to digital satillite radio. http://www.4adodge.com/autoshow/news/hemi.html
  • I was the programmer in the development of a sealed box firewall about the size a CD case (about twice as thick), they went broke before the product was launched :)

    • Must: 100BT Ethernet

    • Must: 1600x1200x24bit SVGA graphics

    • Nice: 640x480x24bit 60Hz TV out via SVideo

    • Nice: TV tuner

    • Nice: HDTV tuner

    • Nice: FM tuner

    • Nice: DVI interface

    • Must: Hardware DVD playback support

    • Nice: Local DVD-ROM

    • Must: SPDIF or AES/EBU Digital audio out

    • Nice: externally clocked digital audio

    • Must: work with local or wireless (IR or RF) keyboard/mouse

    • Must: Boot from 'net or (better) FLASH

    • NO FAN!

  • so why not work the electronics into the walls and surfaces

    Well, at least that way you would only need to buy an air conditioner that does cooling... the walls would have "built-in" heat pumps. :-)


    --
    Marcelo Vanzin
  • There were a number of car stero manufacturers at the latest Consumer Electronics Show, and there were several inexpensive MP3-capable radios. They should be available this year. As for downloading, I'm going to wait for Bluetooth-enabled ones rather than wireless Ethernet. (This tendency to wait for things to stabilize is why I'll probably be watching my analog 525-line television in 2030).
  • It's not the size of the processors,
    it's the motion of the registers.
  • Your walls would be obsolete in 3 months! Would your lights go off when the OS crashed, or you had to upgrade the kernel? What would happen when the system got hacked? Would they run a single process in an infinite loop, causing a portion of the wall to catch on fire, or would they just replace your wallpaper with something ugly with lousy spelling?

    I'd rather have computer furniture, like a coffee table. It could have built in remote, plug in through the floor, have some convenient USB ports, and a thick piece of glass on top to protect from beer spills. It could even have the processor near the surface, to act as a plate warmer!
  • Well, people have been pointing out that speed of light / heat dissapation / etc. might cause problems in making a computer that huge ... although I have thought about (when I get my own place) building my computer into the wall. Imagine ... just open up a panel, and get full access to your computer, nicely laid out, with lots of workspace. Besides, you could save a lot of floor or desk space (I'm always kicking my computer, where I have it now ...
  • Actually, thinking about it some more, that would be a neat gadget to have around the house. Good call :) I was originally thinking on a much larger scale, though with time, I'm sure that embedded Linux machines like this would be very feasible for even large businesses.
  • On this scale, the size of usual connectors is obnoxious.

    One of my current projects uses a 44-pin (laptop) IDE (with the ribbon cable peeling nicely out into ser/par/USB, but a connector which looks tiny perched on the end of a 9.5MM IDE drive is a space hog on a 50x60mm (2"x2.4") board. It's cheap, but ultimately limited for some things I'd like to do. It's only marginally better than what they used in the 70's. There seems to be an invisible wall at 1 line per mm (linear). At 0.5 l/mm most connectors use multiple rows. 0.1" (.254mm) spacing must die!

    Next time, I may use serial multiplexing (USB), if I can get cheap, tiny USB chips to embed in the cables. It would dramatically simplify layout, and with USB/parallel cables running at $20-40 (street), such chips must exist.

    Is there a nonproprietary (mass market) connector with much better than 1 pin/mm^2, or is there some manufacturing/durability limit at smaller spacings (e.g. the 'pocket lint' factor or ribbon cable limits)? I think I recall high end special cables in the 80's that had a grid of pins with less than 1mm spacing, in a round tabbed connector.
  • fucking monkey boy

  • Re:TINI, Dallas SemiConductor Bad. (Score:3)

    by Ace905 ( 163071 ) on Monday January 15, 2001 @10:09AM (#506721) Homepage
    "I'm surprised they haven't mentioned the TINI from iButton."

    I've spoken to different representatives from Dallas Semiconductor in the past year, and have come to the conclusion that they are not a good company for the Unix-loving community to support.

    They are not interested in the ingenuity and progress end-users often add to 'open' products such as their iButton, or TINI TCP/IP stack Chip. They are nothing more than a company of glutenous exec's, looking to sell millions of units to other large companies; They have no feel for the general publics willingness to contribute to new products.

    I realize I sound like I'm describing every company out there, but hey; Even Microsoft tries to speak to its customers, game companies are switching platforms, and almost any large company looking to develop products which can be modified; want the general public to be happy and 'in-the-know' so they will feel a need to contribute to those products. This is not the case with Dallas SemiConductor.

    Case in point. I was working at a small computer networking company in Ottawa a year ago, when 2600 magazine published an article on the iButton. I ordered one out of interest, and to become familiar with coding for it. Later the company I worked for mentioned it would be interesting if we could offer cryptographic ID rings to our customers that would log-them-in to their workstations. So I did some more research.

    And came up with a few questions for "DS", 1 in particular: what protects computers from static when the wearer walks accross a room and plugs straight in to the serial port?

    DS response, "why does it matter?",
    me, "Because we may be ordering these for connecting to servers and workstations at our clients business's"
    DS, "Look, we sell lots of these, there's nothing wrong with static"
    me, "Ok well, do you have any information to support that? Do you have white-papers with measured voltage levels on connection?"
    DS, "All the white-papers are online."

    The online white-papers (at the time) contained little useful information; and this man knew there was no detailed information in their on it. (I know this because, my question before this was, "do you have more detailed white papers with data on")...

    My point? I think Linux/FreeUnix has enough pull now-a-days to demand a certain, small amount of interest from companies offering new, end-user configurable products. After all, it was the OpenSource community that made SEGA stay in the market with inferior products, they've added to the success of the Palm Pilot, etc. etc. All examples of the Opensource community modifying, or changing new products are because the companies who offer them,
    1) *do* take an interest in end-user opinions,
    2) they are interesed in innovation, and they
    3) *do* provide important technical information on their products to end users.

    Opensource has done little to help Microsoft, because they have missed out on the last requirement for innovation [myhometechie.com].
  • I wonder if I can swear?

    Bollocks

    Yep

    ideut 1 ideut 2 ideut 3 ideut 4 ideut 5 ideut 6 ideut 7 ideut 8 ideut 9 ideut 10 ideut 11 ideut 12.

  • Q: How many ideuts does it take to change a light bulb?
  • I run a website that list Manufacturers of
    Embedded Computer devices. Great stuff
    like SBC's and devices for the PC/104 Interface
    are listed on this page.
    Check it out at www.sbc-pc104.com [sbc-pc104.com]

    I'm sure some of you will find it handy.
  • A: Ideut O'Clock
  • d00d. SO, basically its possible to build a small web enabled device out of a TINI board? wow. Thats cheap. Does anyone know where you could get a color LCD screen? like in a palm pilot?
  • I soooo want this!

    My [small] kids are constantly taking the CD out of the player while I'm taking a shower or the wife is cleaning/cooking. I want to encode all my music (damn the RIAA!!) on a server and wire each room with speakers. Then you could have Jazz playing in the bedroom, Trance in the programming cave, Metal in the shower and Country in the kitchen.

    I was thinking of just having a SBC with an ethernet port grab an MP3 (or OGG :) stream, decode it and send it to a small amp. There would have to be some sort of user interface (small LCD or Vacumn Florescent screen). But it should be pretty simple to make.

    Later...
  • The big issue I see with this is related to latency and synchronizationissues.

  • Re:It is worrysome. (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Actually that's not true. Linus has found that the best features in a CPU are the ones that are most common. So if a certain CPU supports some exotic VM design, if it will also support the standard kernel VM then it will work.
  • This overview coincides with the release of Embedded Linux Journal [linuxjournal.com]

    Having an open-source embedded solution is important to engineers, who often need to optimize thier software solutions to custom hardware devices, especially when one considers that most of the growth in electronics in coming years will be on the embedded markets.

  • Some hackers come by late in night with a wireless set up. They hack into your car stereo, delete all your mp3's and replace them with Britney, insync and backstreet boys. Or even worse, they set up a script to replace them as you're driving to work. Oops I did it again Ahhhhh!

  • Re:It is worrysome. (Score:3)

    by SquadBoy ( 167263 ) on Monday January 15, 2001 @08:30AM (#506732) Homepage Journal
    That would be wrong and Linux explains it here [oreilly.com] better than I ever could. Basically Linux is built well and is therefore portable by it's very nature. In any case read what Linus has to say it is better than any paraphrase I could give.
  • Why on earth would you want to use an embedded device for a firewall? At the current stage of development, if space was that much of a factor, you'd be better off getting a larger apartment/office.

  • TINI (Score:5)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 15, 2001 @08:37AM (#506734)
    I'm surprised they haven't mentioned the TINI [ibutton.com] from iButton [ibutton.com], it doesn't run Linux but a Java based OS and only costs $50, it's the size of a standard DIMM and includes a serial port, ethernet, and 1-wire bus. These things have various applications, somebody is building a MP3 player [greenend.org.uk] with one.
  • Gee, Using that logic, I guess laptops should run pretty cool.
  • ...long list 'o stuff..
    - NO FAN!

    Right... and then you could cook on it too!
    -bluebomber

  • It's a nice introduction to commercially available computers the size of a disk drive (biscuit)

    Is that the size of a big ol' fluffy biscuit from Pillsbury, or a rock-hard "roll" from a school cafeteria? Or if it's really small it could be the size of a White Castle(TM) burger?

  • Re:It is worrysome. (Score:3)

    by aardvarkjoe ( 156801 ) on Monday January 15, 2001 @08:54AM (#506738)
    However, does it not adversely affect the development of the OS as a whole?

    The only way to tell is to try it out. Really.

    What would you rather have -- A great OS that only works on your computer, or a great OS that works on every single device known to man? (Note that I said 'great' for each ... assume the quality is the same.) You'd rather it work everywhere, of course, unless you actively dislike the other markets.

    Lack of focus is a possible problem, but not neccesarily true. It's also possible that making the code work on many different architectures has helped the design of the kernel as a whole. (I rather believe this to be the case.) But anyway, arguing intellectually about 'I think this would help/hurt the kernel' is rather useless. Find a part of the kernel that has been compromised by lack of focus. That's the backup you need to follow this line of reasoning.

  • I could see this being a problem using OSes with monolithic kernels; the reason NetBSD runs on so many platforms is that there are that many different kernels. With Linux, however, you have the flexibility of a modular kernel, so any special drivers required can be loaded by a "standard base" kernel.
  • By making componenets larger, you merely make them hotter.

    Size doesn't really have anything to do with it. It is mostly component density (i.e. transistor density). A PCI card with 10 components on it will generate less heat than a PCI card with 100 components on it!

    -bluebomber

  • I don't think it's nearly as important as having something they can put into a device for cheap.

    Slashdot's visited this topic of small Linux devices several times, and the bottom line is that these devices always seem to be too expensive to take the world by storm (E.g. the matchbox server which costs about $1500). The uCSimm project seems to be the closest to overall practicality, since it combines small size, useful interfaces and relatively low price ($300). However things like this won't ignite the world until their lower price range is within an order of magnitude of PIC microcontrollers.

    If anything, I'd be watching a different trend of "cheap Linux devices" as well as tiny Linux devices. Where they meet is a happy land.

  • Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm already sick of having to synch up cell phones with PDAs with laptops with my home PC.

    I don't think having more simultaneously running OSes is the answer to anybody's needs. If constant internet connectivity is one of the key goals of these embedded OSes, it would seem to me that a bare-bones processor capable of remotely operating a central PC would be a much more convenient approach.

    Either way, it still feels like a waste of money to integrate reasonably powerful computers into portable devices when you've got something far more powerful sitting on your desk at home.

    Madhouse [insaneabode.com] - satirized for your protection.

  • This reminds me of something I'd like to see tried. If you take some of these small computers (a good example being the CerfBoard-SA 1110 - Headless Solution) and attach them to speakers all over the house, you now have networked speakers. Then write a little program to accept sound files (MP3s for example) through a socket and play it through the audio out. The final step would be to write a virtual soundcard which pretends to be a real sound card and pipes the selected file/stream to whichever speakers are in the room you specify. Thoughts anyone?
  • Are we begining to see market saturation here? I mean, we have a plethora of x86 compatable systems. And we also have a slew of Linux only, or even "build your own os" SBC's.

    Who is using these comptuers? The last time I saw a SBC was inside one of the gear cutting machines at my dad's shop. And this is a device the size of a small moving van. (yea a SBC is underkill)

    I think the question comes down to, what's the ACTUALL market these guys are selling to?
  • - NO FAN!

    Right... and then you could cook on it too!

    Well, yeah, that's the rub. I want to use it to pull uncompressed digital audio, and eventually MPEG2 video from over the home LAN, to drive (first) the stereo, and the high-res TV or monitor, respectively.

    Thus, a fan is verboten.

    I realize that hardware DVD decoding might require that level of active cooling, but surely a fanless solution exists that will at least do X and the digital audio stuff, leaving the video for later.

    Even so, proper heat pipe technology should make it possible to use passive convection cooling. Look at the Mac Cube, for an example (and it doesn't even need a heat pipe).

    Finally, I am willing to live with an outboard "brick" style power supply, if that helps remove the fan requirement.

  • I'm looking at using a PC/104 to build a small, protable server the size of a brick. I'm a consultant and I'm often at client sites, wasting time because the client's IT guys don't have a database for me to work with. My current design uses a PC/104 with dual ether and a 20 gig laptop HD. I'm also building a 5 port hub into the box, so I can have one small box to lug on the plane. Plug in, turn on, and the team has a dev server and a hub to jack in to. The ARM stuff is cool, but I need intel since I need it to run Oracle. -Rob
  • Sure, a brick would be cool, but laptops aren't that big, especially if you get ones with wimpy screens (which are also less expensive.) You should be able to get one under 4 pounds without much trouble, and the screen and keyboard make it easier to configure for the site.

  • This tiny Linux computer is just the thing (Score:2)

    by Anonymous Coward
    for my embedded cooking device.

    It has to be placed into a container of boiling water and vegetable matter. where it keeps the vegetable matter from sticking to the pan, until the desired softness is reached.

    So far, I've planned it to work with ground corn, but rice should be doable to.
  • The fact that Linux is usable on a wide variety of architectures and a wide variety of differently powerd machines is to be welcomed. However, does it not adversely affect the development of the OS as a whole? If the kernel has to be made to run on everything from a mobile phone to the largest IBM mainframe, does this not mean that kernel development is compromised through being unfocused?

    I would far rather have a kernel developed specifically for the desktop and server market. All this other exotica does not benefit the average user and diffuses the focus and purpose of the linux advocate and developer.

  • our ego's should be inflated by small things. Remember, it's not the size of the tool, its how you use it!

    ----

  • Embeddable Systems == Viable Niche Market (Score:3)

    by jgdobak ( 119142 ) on Monday January 15, 2001 @08:14AM (#506751)
    It wouldn't hurt Linux at all to branch into the sort of market that OSes like QNX currently dominate. It needs a bit of work to get there, but it's definitely a place a no-cost OS could thrive.

    I've not done my homework on this, but it seems at first glance that starting a company to make the neccesary changes/improvements, sell embeddable Linux systems, and provide support could be profitable.
    root@mrcoffee ~# brew --decaff --cups 5

    --
  • the LeOS embedded Linux portable systems? they are pretty nice, I had to do a white paper on them...so are the pocke penguins...

  • Matchbox PC's are better (Score:4)

    by Bonker ( 243350 ) on Monday January 15, 2001 @08:14AM (#506753)
    Embedded Linux is okay, but you can run an entire distribution off one of one of these guys. [tiqit.com]
  • Its good to see that this is finally is happening!

  • I'd rather see them make them bigger, not smaller (Score:5)

    by Chuck Flynn ( 265247 ) on Monday January 15, 2001 @08:14AM (#506755)
    I remember when I first set eyes on the ENIAC, when they took it out of commission back, well, whever that was. Now there was a computer! That thing gave me the greatest swelling of pride I've probably ever had. We were the greatest, because we had the biggest! It's like with skycrapers that way, you know.

    Smaller wearables are fine for mobile applications, but most people just spend their whole lives in one or two rooms (at home or at the office). Why don't we just build the computer into the room? Why not make the computer the room? You're already spending money to aircondition the room to make it inhabitable, so why not work the electronics into the walls and surfaces and have really big cheap components like the ones we used to have before smaller became sexier.

    Small is good for a bunch of reasons, but it's also a luxury most people don't need, just as they don't need an SUV or that extra-expensive insurance plan that covers dental. "Small" is just one factor that should be weighed against other factors like cost and aesthetics. Bring back the behemoths! Make me feel young again!
  • I would really like to see a car stereo company come out with a small linux (or any other os, for that matter) powered car stereo that has a wireless lan connection for storing MP3's on a 12 GB or so hard disk inside the stereo. It could be AM/FM and MP3. It would be a match made in heaven. I would pay $500 or so for it and I am sure MANY others would too. That could be an excellent use of embedded linux (and maybe xmms). Just a thought and my $.02.
  • And just what do you thinks grits is made out of?

    corn

    I've been trolling since you were watching Thundercats, don't mess with me.
  • I think a lot of the problem lies with how slow the speed of light is. If you had a computer the size of a room and tried to run it at gigahertz speed, then you would run into all kinds of problems because several clock ticks would happen in the time it takes the first tick to hit the other side of the room. Designing around that could be a real pain. I think this is the reason Cray built their computers in a circular layout.

    -ec

  • Re:Matchbox PC's are better (Score:3)

    by QuantumG ( 50515 ) <qg@biodome.org> on Monday January 15, 2001 @08:42AM (#506759) Homepage Journal
    Factory Direct Pricing of the complete Matchbox PC, part number 10901: $1,495.00
  • While reading Sys Admin Mag [sysadminmag.com] this month, I came across an advertisement for the new Embedded LInux Journal [linuxjournal.com] Magazine. Looks promising.

    About embedded systems: Linux is used on many of these because of its modularity, but if you're into it, try using other things on them...



    My karma's bigger than yours!

  • Interface? (Score:3)

    by deebaine ( 218719 ) on Monday January 15, 2001 @08:42AM (#506761) Journal
    Many also require user-friendly graphical and/or speech interfaces.

    I think this is a key point. While I enjoy using Linux, I don't consider UI one of its strongest points. If embedded Linux is to become the thing of the future for wearable PCs and other embedded devices, there needs to be major progress in novel, Linux-compatible interfaces. It is here, I think, that Linux can distance itself from the pack. If the open source community can put together intuitive, stable and efficient interfaces, Linux will have a major advantage as embedded systems become commonplace.
  • While I can't claim to have done that much homework on the subject either, I did find something along the lines of what you were talking about in Linux Journal a few months back. LynuxWorks (lynuxworks.com [lynuxworks.com]) is in the business of marketing a real-time Linux compatible OS. They also are involved in the embedded Linux market, from what I understand. Doesn't it seem like whenever you've got an idea, someone else has already beaten you to the punch? :)
  • 300Mhz dual etherexpress pro boot from flash disk. very very nice firewall the size of a big mac box

  • Re:Car Stereo (Score:3)

    by NetJunkie ( 56134 ) <jason.nash@CHICAGOgmail.com minus city> on Monday January 15, 2001 @08:24AM (#506764)
    Look at the Empeg. Doesn't meet your price requirements, but does most else. Last I heard they were adding 802.11 wireless to it.

    http://www.empeg.com
  • The tradeoff that makes small computers inherently better than big computers is *heat* dissipation. Every inch of your MB generates heat. Every PCI and AGP card generates a shitload of heat. Every cable, every powercord, every drive generates heat.

    It's a misnomer that all the heat in a PC comes from the CPU. This is not the case. Anyone seen the heat sinks on mobo growing lately? Hmmm...? By making componenets larger, you merely make them hotter. Not faster...

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