COMDEX and Linux Handhelds 87
code_slayer sent us a cool review of linux handhelds at COMDEX. You can see
Qt Embedded (which has been released under the GPL)
as well as MicroWindows, and a bunch of prototype boards. I'm still waiting for the 802.11 wireless linux handheld capable of displaying remote X applications, but it looks like we're getting closer.
Karma, Karma, Karma... (Score:3)
Here are some URLS for those who want to know more about Microwindows and the stuff running specifically on the Ipaq:
www.microwindows.org [microwindows.org] (Microwindows source and home page)
embedded.censoft.com [censoft.com] (Century software home page)
Handheld OS. Who cares? (Score:5)
Isn't it the software and hardware features that matter rather than the OS? Palm OS has the most applications. Except for l33t-ness, why would anyone switch from a Palm handheld to a Linux one?
I realize these questions are annoying, but there had better be a good answer if you ever expect Linux to win in the market.
Why is this cool? (Score:5)
The people working on Linux for handhelds (at least the people at handhelds.org anyway) are NOT interested in reproducing your Linux desktop that is running on your AMD 1.4Ghz PC with the 64MB AGP video card. They are interested in making the Linux kernel work on handheld computers so that lots of other really smart people can come up with a really nice UI schema that will run on top of it. Read the list archives a bit to realize that these people *really get it.*
Lots of people are going to be talking about "the huge Linux distro" installed on their handheld computer, thinking about their home PC. Again, that's not the way it works. The Linux distro build by the handhelds.org people has the kernel, X11, some nice utilities, and fits into about 8MB. (Yes, that's the TCP/IP stack, fbdev X11, glibc, and most of the other usual suspects.) The point is to make a working operating *environment*, not a fancy e-based desktop. They know that that's not appropriate for the handheld form factor.
Like the article says, the point is *not* Linux-centric technofetishism. The point is to literally "open up" the capabilities of the devices to make them more accessible to the people who use them. I own a Palm IIIxe and I love it. I also am having a very hard time wrapping my head around the Palm API and trying to find decent tools to program it under Linux. If I have Linux running on my iPAQ, using Qt either under X11 or with Qt/Embedded, then I don't need to learn a new paradigm and can start programming my iPAQ right away. Of course, that doesn't mean I'll understand how to program for this sort of UI, but that at least will be my fault if I screw it up. The fact that now I *can* easily screw it up on my own is the important part.
I think what everyone's assuming is that the people who are involved in these projects are under the same mistaken assumption that Microsoft has been for so many years with WinCE that the whole point is to reproduce the desktop on a really tiny computer. BUT THEY'RE NOT! Everyone involved really understands that that's a BAD IDEA.
The reason, IMHO, that this stereotype keeps propagating is that right now, just getting Linux to boot on any of the handheld devices commonly available in the market is such an accomplishment that nobody's really been able to put a whole lot of effort into coming up with a good UI for the things now that we can actually use them. Qt/Embedded is a GREAT BIG step in that direction, and hopefully will make people start realizing that this is actually REALLY COOL STUFF and not just done for the sake of doing it.
-=-=-=-=-
Re:Why not? (Score:1)
Wireless (Score:1)
iPaq can do 802.11 (Score:1)
The Compaq iPaq Pocket PC [compaq.com], which can run Linux and X [handhelds.org], can be hooked up to an expansion sleeve with a CardBus slot [compaq.com]. You can then stick in any old 802.11 card. I've seen it working, and it rocks.
[I do work for Compaq, but I'm a hacker, not a marketroid.]
I'll buy one (Score:1)
PalmOS future limited by closed-source apps (Score:2)
- There were 8mb hacks YEARS ago. Yet Palm still continues to make products out of various RAM-limited configurations, and using more than 8mb on a palm requires a MAJOR HACK (tm)
- The screen res is limited, and can't be easily changed so that existing apps can use expanded screen real estate. So, palm is going to have big trouble moving to a new screen size, and that will break compatibility with all of the current palms.
- 8-bit color isn't enough color
- why has it taken so long for a Color palm V? I contend it's because Palm has to space out their new products to create the perception of a product roadmap since they're now so limited by the capabilities of their current platform.
- Palm has a great form factor, but as far as CPU and storage goes, it's far too feeble. Do you think voice recognition is going to work on a 20mhz cpu and fit in a few mb of ram?
OTOH, If I imagine a linux-based PDA, I can imagine that I will never have to worry about my vendor stopping support for old hardware, and I can easily migrate to the next generation platform without losing my apps or my data
and best of all, imagine having gcc on your PDA, and recompiling your own apps!
That's never gonna happen on a Palm or Wince.
X on a handheld (Score:1)
It seems to me that VNC has been ported to the palm. Don't remember where I saw this, but you could certainly "use X apps" on your palm if this is true...
Re:Screenshot (Score:2)
Now to just get a tiny Tux sticker for the front of mine and I'll be set.
Linux Tablets (Score:3)
David E. Weekly [weekly.org]
What COMDEX cares about is BSDi Red Devil horns (Score:1)
As the story says:
Attendees ranging from twentysomething men to white-haired couples were lined up to collect the headbands from the software and services company, which uses a dough-eyed red demon character as its mascot.
Jordan Hubbard, vice president of BSDi, said the company went through 4,000 headbands and tails in just one day.
"They love the horns," he said, and the company loves the brand awareness they create.
The only reason Linux Handhelds are interesting (Score:1)
It's not that Linux is better, it's that it does the same thing for a cheaper price.
Re:Palms, etc... (Score:2)
Re:XBill is ported to Microwindows (Score:1)
Re: (Score:1)
Question: IR interface (Score:1)
Why not? (Score:1)
I'm curious what your reasoning here is? I would think they (start menus) are a better idea on a palm computer since they are designed to save space. I haven't extensively used a palm computer with a start menu (WinCE) but it seems like a fine idea to me.
Here's a Handspring Linux rumor (Score:2)
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Re:People are justified in questioning the value (Score:1)
Please. Just because people are trying to put Windows all over the place, doesn't mean that Linux has to play catch-up here as well. Use the right tool for the job, and create standards so that these devices can interface. Where was it written that two devices with different OS's can't communicate?
Typical Linux Problem... (Score:4)
People use computers to do things, not just as fetish accessories. At least, most people do.
What applications will people run on a Linux handheld? Is someone working on a Linux Host and Handheld system similar to M$ Outlook and similar tools that would allow the primary users of handhelds (people trying to organize their lives) to actually organize contacts, communications, and calendar entries in a unified manner? The Qt/Embedded looked like it had at least the remote half of that pairing...
The Qt/Embedded interface photo looks nice - it even looks simple enough (something a lot of people don't feel about Linux on the desktop), though I don't yet know how complex it is to install (many still have difficulty installing Linux on their desktops - maybe they are idiots, or maybe just busy with the rest of their job... but a lot of these folks buy computers and if Linux wants to rule, the need to be taken into account...)
I love Linux, I love *nix in general, but the dearth of applications and difficulty of installation and maintenance makes it such that I can not use it in my organization, adn thus use it for work without at least as much hassle as using Windows. There is too much emphasis on "gee whiz" and not enough on real work (with the exception of real engineering work, but unfortunately business people, not engineers, control the market - even the computer market)...
I hope that these systems work as well as they look in the pictures, and maybe this will start Linux down the road of acceptance on the Business desktop if developers focus on the host-side applications as well...
More Palm than Linux apps? (Score:1)
You obviously haven't looked here [freshmeat.net].
Or here [sourceforge.net].
Download embedded QT for your IPAQ (Score:2)
Also, floppy-disk and cassiopia demos. And source!
A mirror will be at http://www.flyingbuttmonkeys.com/mirrors/ftp.trol
-M
________________________________________
Re:Wireless Linux with X (Score:2)
If you want to try the QT stuff, it's home page, with downloads is here:
http://www.trolltech.com/pro ducts/qt/embedded/qpe.html [trolltech.com]
Mirror is here:
http://www.flyingbuttmonkeys.com/mirrors/ftp.trol
________________________________________
Why X on a handheld is a good thing (Score:4)
The whole point of one of these webpads is that it's just an extension of the desktop. It's not like my visor, where I keep track of phone numbers, etc. It's soposed to be for when I want to read slashdot on the throne.
What better way to have it an extention of my desktop, then to run all my desktop aps nativly. This is one of the underrated uses of X. THe fact that it can display remotely. The webpad doesn't need any real power, just enough to run the display. My desktop is taking all the cpu load runing the ap.
When this comes, I'll spend money on one. I'd love to be able to do stuff like control xmms form anywhere, read salshdot on the can, and go to landolakes.com in the kitchen so I know how to make a turkey. That's what these things are soposed to be able to let me do. What better way then to do it with X? After all, that's what it's for.
And this just isn't a linux pipedream either. MacOS X having an X server, will be able to do the same thing. And also if I'm not mistaken, doesn't Corel, or one of it's partners ship a product that lets Windows display it's aps remotely to an X server?
Re:Handheld OS. Who cares? (Score:1)
Re:More Palm than Linux apps? (Score:1)
but, I think most of the palmtops running Linux have at least resolutions of 320x200, and several also have IrDA capability.
palmtop computer != Palm
Palm had the advantage of being first to market, but now they have the decided disadvantage of being old, slow and clunky, without full color (or at least, very expensive color if you're willing to give up some other features).
I wouldn't try to run Freeciv (well... actually I would, just for coolness factor - just have to set up a 640x480 virtual desktop), but I could certainly watch MPEG videos, or play Heretic (if you've been following the Yopy announcements). Listen to MP3s, organize my e-mail...
Re:X on a handheld (Score:1)
Re:The Mindstorm plotter (Score:1)
--Mark
(One of the designers..)
Re:Linux Tablets (Score:2)
Re:Handheld OS. Who cares? (Score:2)
Why do we care what OS is on our handhelds?
Most of the world doesn't. They also don't care what OS their desktop runs. They just want to use MS Word and see all the cool animations on web pages. In the PDA world, they want to have their schedules, todos, and contacts in a portable format. And maybe play a few games and reference a document or web page.
Isn't it the software and hardware features that matter rather than the OS? Palm OS has the most applications. Except for l33t-ness, why would anyone switch from a Palm handheld to a Linux one?
If Linux proves itself capable of providing a more powerful/capable/efficient/usable PDA, then people might care. Until then, I'm all for linux geeks experimenting with the idea, but I'll continue to use my Newton MessagePad 2100 until something better comes along (it hasn't yet).
Is handwriting recognition code GPLed? (Score:1)
That is a major lack in Linux, and it would IMHO be a really cool thing to offer for free by default with all linux scanning software.
Speed (Score:3)
a 'button' based UI is more efficiently navigated
than a nested menu on pen-based, small screened hardware.
On my Visor, the 'hot zone' for a launcher is a ~.5 x ~.75 inch box,
whereas on a winCE device, it's at least two ~.25x1.5 inch boxes.
I find the 'square' targets to be easier to hit when I'm in a hurry.
I think that on a small device, particularly one that is designed
for instant access to data, the added speed of easier to hit
targets outweighs the added capacity of nested menus.
Like I said, I'm not a UI theorist, so my conclusions may be completely off-base, but
I personally find the Palm icon view to be much quicker.
(Disclaimer: I've owned both platforms.)
--K
---
Re:Wireless Linux with X (Score:1)
We are currently tethered at the show w/ a compact flash ethernet card. 802.11 was just not working correctly in the booth.
--Mark
It's not about the OS. (Score:1)
Re:Handheld OS. Who cares? (Score:3)
I suppose it'd this kind of thirst which WinCE aims to quench...
X11, wireless, displaying on a handheld linux box (Score:1)
(author's note: I'm one of the guys that did the ipaq and legoplotter demo for MontaVista for this comdex)
There are some advantages to X (and for that matter, Linux) on a handheld that are not immediately obvious to a palm or PocketPC user. The first is - unless you are connected to the net, it makes no sense to be carrying your net enabled applications around with you. With Linux (NFS or X)... just leave your net apps at home or at the office, and display them on your ipaq when you're on the net. Makes sense, no?
Mozilla M18 over X to the ipaq seems to me be much "sweeter" than PocketPC IE, less screen update problems, better formatting. Compare them side by side if you're at the show....
Two is - carrying the wireless ipaq around with a whole bunch of mp3's NFS mounted or shoutcasted is a real trip! - the ipaq or an ipaq-like device is the boom box of the future!
Three is - even with X installed, several apps, the ice window manager, GTK, rsh, ssh, etc - there's still 2MB of (compressible) flash on the usr partition of the ipaqs, and 3MB or so of user rewritable/storable on
Last - fitting Linux onto devices this size -it's just really cool. And a harbringer of things to come. Linux is much more appropo to your handheld than palmos - palmos isn't going to scale, neither is pocketpc, while with linux we can keep porting down from a unified source code development tradition into ever more capable handheld devices.
Some specs on the ipaq: 32MB RAM, 16MB flash, 206Mhz strongarm processor. 12 Bit deep display (viewed as 16 by the X server)
Principal source of kernel development and basic apps: www.handhelds.org, irc: irc.gimp.org #ipaq
Re:More Palm than Linux apps? (Score:1)
The L&F issues are a problem. Most applications out there expect a much larger display than the ipaq provides. GTK itself has several widgets (notably the fileselection widget) that do not work well on the ipaq. That's an easy fix, though, just change the library's widgets (and defaults for borders, etc) to reflect the smaller screen area, and walla! you have an app that with few changes working on the smaller screen. You can certainly optimize further - but it is much easier to alter minor aspects of the GUI to work well at lowres than it is to rewrite the entire app to work under palmos or pocketPC!
I've been squashing GTK to work better on the small screen. I hope to post that to: (http://mvista.sourceforge.net/projects/squashedg
Wireless Linux with X (Score:3)
These pictures won't sell any (Score:4)
Come on, everyone remembers the naked ballerina holding her Palm, right, the Simply Palm ad?
So why couldn't they round up a few booth babes or Lara Croft wannabees to model these? Who cares how well it works, as long as a sexy babe holds it up, I'll buy.
Impressive, but... (Score:1)
But haven't people realized that start menus on palmtops are not a Good Thing!
Why does this UI metaphor keep popping up in places it shouldn't?!
--K
---
My Only Handheld (Score:1)
The Mindstorm plotter (Score:1)
Taco, they mention wireless for the iPAQ (Score:2)
We should care (Score:2)
--
More info (Score:2)
Re:Karma, Karma, Karma... (Score:1)
XBill is ported to Microwindows (Score:1)
Wireless Linux (Score:2)
Re:More Palm than Linux apps? (Score:1)
Just because there are applications for Linux, doesn't mean that there are the same applications for Linux/Palm (Linux/Dragonball?).
Re:Typical Linux Problem... (Score:2)
So the question is, where are the applications folks? Where are the companies (and more importantly, the $$$) concerned with applications?
Its all good and well to complain that the Linux community doesn't have much in the way of real work, but for everybody that works all day and then hacks all night, where is the real satisfaction? Is it in the long and drawn out (but nessesary) process of designing applications, or is it better just to slam out a kernel driver before the Simpsons? For good applications, corporations need to invest time and money into producing good products. They need to attract those app designers from Windows and Palm and put them to work. Those that have (Netscape, Sun, etc..) have come out with some quality open projects that I use daily.
Thats not to say that quality apps aren't coming from your weekend programmers (balsa, some Gnome Apps), but these projects don't hold the sex appeal and oppertunity that the kernel provide.
I agree (Score:1)
Re:Handheld OS. Who cares? (Score:1)
I love Linux on my desktop, PalmOS on my palmtop. But...
What if I had Linux + X + [KDE | Gnome] on my palmtop, and I could recompile my fav apps to run on it (and deal with the change in screen size somehow) that would mean I could carry my fav apps with me...share data/files from one to the other...in fact have a mini version of my desktop machine in my pocket. Wow.
Think about it: more or less every app that runs on your desktop can also run on your palmtop (screensize/input devices permitting).
That would so monsterously k3wl. Oh, and quite useful, too. :)
Re:Handheld OS. Who cares? (Score:1)
Because it makes a difference to developers, who want to leverage experience we already have. Further, all OSen are not created equal...how is Palm's sound and sound capture support for instance?
Isn't it the software and hardware features that matter rather than the OS?Where do you think software features and hardware support come from?!? The OS is an integral part of the mix.
Palm OS has the most applications. Except for l33t-ness, why would anyone switch from a Palm handheld to a Linux one?Palm has the most handheld applications today. That says nothing about tomorrow. Some reasons developers might want to use Linux on a PDA:
Familiarity with the API.Access to the source code.
Real TCP/IP stack.
Many (free)compilers and other development tools.
Coming hard realtime variants of Linux, like the MontaVista [mvista.com] fully preemptive kernel mods (max latency around a millisecond on the way!).
I hope that helped! :-)
(BTW, is there a way to moderate the "Insightful" tag back off the parent post? ;-)
I realize these questions are annoying, but there had better be a good answer if you ever expect Linux to win in the market.One last thought - I bet Linux is in a much better position to support the next PDA superCPU...it's called portability you know... :-)
Re:People are justified in questioning the value (Score:1)
I beleive that's written somewhere in the Microsoft Employee Handbook.
Palm computer future limited by batteries (Score:1)
I think that long-lasting, small, light battery is the last hurdle left for truely small portable computers. We can pack as much power as we want into a palm-sized case, but if it has to be rechanged every 2 hours, it is not useful.
Re:CLI + linux + handheld? (Score:2)
"Hmm.... ok, I can delete this directory and all subdirs, here we go, write rm -rf *."
*scribble scribble*
Palmtop displays: rm -rf /*
"No, no, no-------!!!!"
Re:Taco, they mention wireless for the iPAQ (Score:1)
Also the folks at www.vitanuova.com are dusting off their Ipaqs to continue developing Inferno for it.
All a bit of vapour atm. but promising none the less. I might buy one when I can do useful things on it. I got stung by WinCE 1 and the Palm Pilot already so I'll be waiting for a while until I spend again.
Re:X on a handheld (Score:1)
for anyone who doesn't know VNC, on Unix it is a server and you can configure it however you want without having anything to do with your regular X setup. On Windows you just get a window on to the desktop currently running on the machine. Anyone remember NT Terminal Server ?
yopy? (Score:1)
Agenda VR3 linux handheld (Score:1)
Re:Wireless Linux with X (Score:1)
I'm still waiting for the 802.11 wireless linux handheld capable of displaying remote X applications, but it looks like we're getting closer.
It's already here, at stand S1077, running on this box [dmida.com]
Stability and Royalty free (Score:1)
I also think you can find more information on Red Hats site.
Tim
Re:Handheld OS. Who cares? (Score:1)
As a user, I might not care. I want good software. I like Free Software for well discussed reasons (see gnu.org [gnu.org]), but I wont get into that now.
Now, consider being a developer. I want to write applications which need more power than a Palm offers me. Alternatives I can buy: devices with Epoc or Windows CE. Let's concentrate on Windows.
Development tools for Windows CE are, hm, not cheap, it's costly to get information about the system, the API is different to everything I know from before. This even counts for Windows for Desktop developers, to a certain degree.
I can use PersonalJava [sun.com]. This might work, but there might be application-specific reasons for not using Java.
Alternative: I can put Linux on my iPAQ. Whow, what opportunities does that offer: I can use plain X [handhelds.org]. I can use PocketLinux [pocketlinux.com] with Microwindows and Java. I can use embedded Qt [trolltech.com].
Every of these possibilities has counterparts on Desktops. I have access to documentation. I can use tools I know from before. So it's easier to write applications.
Wait a minute. Applications. Wasn't that the user cares about?
I just bought me an iPAQ, and I'm looking forward to putting Linux on it. This Windows CE stuff is so closed, I can't even sync the build-in calendars with my Linux-system (why use a standard format, when you can use outlook). The Palm is much more open here.
To put it very easy: Linux on iPAQ = Openness of PalmOS + Power of a "Windows powered" device.
echo $FAKEMAIL | sed s/soccer/football/ | sed s/" at "/@/
This is great... (Score:5)
Screenshot (Score:4)
You would think they could have stickered over the "Powered by Windows CE" logo for the screenshot.
Re:Why only Linux handhelds? (Score:1)
But you already knew the answer before you threw that barb out into slashdot, right?
Palms, etc... (Score:1)
Re:This is great... (Score:1)
Now I can fit a 1024 node Beowulf cluster in the linuxen closet.
Re:Taco, they mention wireless for the iPAQ (Score:1)
Microwindows supports OpenGL (Score:2)
QT Embedded is great (Score:1)
What I'd really like to see though is an installer package either for Unix based or Windows based systems which removes CE from the sexy little iPaq and replaces it with Linux and QT Embedded - when someone does this and can demo it to me I will buy the iPaq and install this combination. Must have decent sync tools to at least let me browse the file system on the iPaq from the desktop machine btw.
Re:The Mindstorm plotter (Score:1)
Thank you.
--
Re:Karma, Karma, Karma... (Score:1)
802.11? (Score:1)
Re:Typical Linux Problem... (Score:1)
I can not use it in my organization, adn thus use it for work without at least as much hassle as using Windows.
*/
I'm one of those people who would like to see Linux accepted as a desktop OS by the software (read: proprietary) industry, and a typical response, other than the generic "there's no interest" is that companies just don't want to deal with the backlash of doing a binary-only release for Linux. I have lousy coding skills so writing an Illustrator clone isn't an option, but using Windows or MacOS just isn't acceptable anymore. =) Yeah, I know about Corel Draw, and I have the free Photo-Paint download, so I may soon buy Corel Draw. And no, Sketch isn't even close. We won't even talk about The GIMP. =)
Unfortunately.... (Score:1)
CLI + linux + handheld? (Score:3)
Re:Question: IR interface (Score:2)
And of course, since IRDA is standards based, it follows that the Ipaq will talk to all IRDA capable machines (printers, Palms, etc, etc...).
PS: Many kudos to the good folks at www.handhelds.org [handhelds.org] for their fine work on the IRDA stuff. Give yourselves a pat on the back, eh?
Re:More Palm than Linux apps? (Score:2)
The Newton was 1st to market.
Re:Taco, they mention wireless for the iPAQ (Score:1)
actually, as of last night, inferno is currently running on an Ipaq. still a little way to go before it's usable (e.g. the screen's the wrong way round currently)but it looks good.
i saw it today running the whole development environment with all the files imported transparently over the serial link. (that's the beauty of inferno - no extra code or compilation was required to accomplish this).
cheers, rog.
The key point (Score:1)
The issue, though, isn't providing a new outlet for Linux fetishism. Rather, developers are keying in on the idea that Linux provides access to source code, an enthusiastic developer community, and a level of flexibility in crafting environments that doesn't exist with the competition from Microsoft and Palm. Qt/Embedded, for instance, can leverage a large body of developers already familiar with Qt, and a body of source code for desktop apps that can be ported to handhelds with tweaks for interfaces.
YES!!! Open source is the key to PDA's success. PDAs functions and rolls are so similar to embedded systems. There's a reason your router, firewall, switch, ssl-accelerator, whatever runs a hacked up BSD or linux kernel. PDAs need to maximize the hardware. Software must integrate in with the OS. The OS must be open source!
Re:Fine, but... (Score:1)
Re:These pictures won't sell any (Score:1)
Bless Marketeers.
Who (Score:2)
Linux on a handheld, now you can not do all the things you couldn't do it home on the road!
Re:This is great... (Score:1)
Re:The key point (Score:2)
Take the PalmOS. While not open source, the programmers I've talked to have said that it is much easier to code for the Palm platform than it is for the WinCE/PPC platform. Palm also makes it easy to become a developer for their platform, IIRC.
Open source may be important, but ease of development (of new software) is more important for platforms.