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Hardware

[In]expensive Immersion? 62

Posted by CmdrTaco from the well-kinda-anyway dept.
rentaghost sent us a sharky bit about a mouse feedback device that actually connects your audio output to the mouse to add vibrations. It's OS independent, too. If you're not interested in the cheaper stuff, check out Vision Station: a domend screen and 3d sound projection? Of course, the scariest version is a whole room. You thought quake gives you motion sickness now.
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VMouse: Inexpensive Immersion? More

VMouse: Inexpensive Immersion?

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  • The article bemoans the fact that you mostly likely cannot aim accurately if there are explosions nearby because the mouse will shake too violently under some settings, I would submit that this actually improves the immersion experience.

    Of course, your non-immersed opponents may have an unfair advantage, but you can be comforted by the knowledge that you'll be building up experience to apply when the time comes for each of us to pick up a blaster and destroy the alien invaders in the real world, where explosions actually affect your aim :-)

  • I knew I should've patented my concept for a large concave screen back when we were talking about monitor technology back in '98. Well, it says in the Bible that a prophet is without honor in his own time. :o) Being monocular (blind in rt eye) and all, this is a nice alternative to true stereo displays. Now I can finally have that 16,000 x 12,000 TrueColor desktop I've craved.
  • Give me some credibility - I only play quake with only one hand when I'm masturbating furiously with the other. In which case simple matters like getting fragged really become unimportant.

    FatPhil
  • Using most mice/pointing devices already cause my wrists to hurt after brief usage.

    I can already see a greater amount of people suffering from Repetitive Stress Injuries (most commonly known of which is Carpal Tunnel) thanks to the added vibration...
  • ... here ! [ibrator.com]
    --
  • I managed to get the wheel working pretty well in whatever kde version comes with rh7, mozilla too... no click-and-drag to scroll, but i never liked that anyhow... i have a logitech mouse (cordless, no cords to snag and kill you) and have the wheel-click set to "explore my computer" in 98. Anyone know how to set up the same kinda thing in kde? It's HELLA useful!

    (I *HATE* mice without a wheel)
  • How about a killer trackball with force feedback? Maybe I've over looked them in the news, but all I hear about are mice.

    - systmc
  • You should look around and price some used/surplus lcd projectors, get a few video cards and you're set! Of course, you need a dim room and screens on your walls. Damn, that would be sweet!
  • THe mouse has a led diode? They are so cheap, it is essentially free.

    What's amusing is that the packaging of Logitech's $30 USD mouse has a blinking LED embedded in it to attract your attention. I'll bet the one on the outside of the box is virtually identical to the one in the mouse. The amusing part is that when you tear open the packaging you see that this blinking light isn't powered by some dinky two bit batteries. No, it's powered by a couple of AA Duracells. The batteries must have cost way more than that LED.

  • I have switched to an optical mouse for purely one reason: I eat so much chocolate, crisps (potato chips) and biscuits (cookies) when I'm using my machine, that traditional ball mice get all gummed up within a few days. With an optical mouse, the crumbs actually help the camera to see the direction the mouse is moving...

  • cat /dev/mouse > /dev/audio

    This doesn't work so well under Linux, actually, though it was really funky under SunOS 4 (back in the pre-Solaris days).

  • That's the best way to get striped bass; just go into the shallow areas about 1/4 mile off the shore, and then steer into the waves. The striped bass swim with the waves, so they whiz right by your bait, and (hopefully) strike. After you fight with the ones on the lines, you fire up the motor, and speed ahead of the waves, then turn around and do it all again.
  • That my friend, is why I strapped the biggest subwoofer I could find to the back of my chair!
    Now try playing Quake! It shakes the fillings in your teeth loose!
  • If you're REALLY immersed, you won't get motion sickness. That condition is caused by a disconnect between what you're seeing and what you're body is doing - for example if you're reading in a car, you see nothing moving, but you can feel the acceleration.

    If immersion is properly done, the connection between your various senses will be perfect and you won't feel sick.
    --

  • > Or are we simply content to sit on our collective asses, and watch the world go by?

    Um, yeah! What the hell, it's the ultimate immersion, eh?

    Still, you're right about us having everything around for a (reasonably) cheap way-out barrage of the senses.

    >Why isn't there any interest in homebrew VR

    Yeah well, kids these days! In my day we watched TV with ONE eye, and were glad to have that...

  • Actually, I usta have a bet on this one, to whit - betcha can't put on this vr helmet and not rip it off in two minutes or less. Always won.

    Why - system read compass and attitude sensor from headset, used this to control logic simulating about Mach 1.5 over a 90 meter resolution terrain (ok, so we dropped all the linear/near linear pts to get the pig to run, it was a few years ago). Whenever the machine detected a head wobble, it'd pull an inverted normal change to camera direction (turns opposite from tilt 90 degrees). And yup, when your eyes tell you you're screaming along over the ground at some ridiculous speed and doing 90 degree turns, and those turns are basically out of phase with your own head wobbles ___and your ears say "ain't nothing happening", you turn green. Every time.

    So this is a long way of trying to point out that immersion ain't just the immediate see and hear bits, it's also what you feel, and what "subsystems" of your own report on the physical environment. Tell the right lie and a 90 foot fall is really about 3/4 inch (Disney) or even apply a light voltage and fool the balance organs (Stanford ????) but if you don't cover every base, you may soon find motion sickness acts like a system panic message indicating someone is lying about something.

  • Haptics... (Score:3)

    by TheReverand ( 95620 ) on Friday October 13, 2000 @04:29AM (#708815) Homepage
    Haptic mice are sweet. They are talking about applying it to medical edumacation, training doctors how to palpate certain parts of the body, by allowing them to feel how it would resist.

    They even have an app to train people on finding land mines!

    FYI Haptics comes from the Greek Haptesthai. meaning to grasp or touch.

    cheers,

    rev

  • Re:Haptics... (Score:3)

    by TheReverand ( 95620 ) on Friday October 13, 2000 @04:32AM (#708816) Homepage
    Bah, forgot my links.

    Electronic Journal of Haptic research. [haptics-e.org]

    Haptics Community Web Page [northwestern.edu]

  • Is it some kind of corny pun on it being a "true theatre" experience?

    Back to the drawing boards guys - how about "large domed screen" (TM) technology?

    FatPhil

  • 22nd (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    post

  • ...But, why would anyone want this? It seems like just another 'rumble pack' like they had for the N64. Whoo. I fell, my mouse shook. Amazing.

    You know, go out and play Metal Gear Solid (Playstation) all the way through and then play with a "rumble" equiped controller. There is a huge difference. It scares the shit out of you when you are spotted and not only do you get the music jolt, but also the tactile sensation.

    It would make games like HalfLife a more creepy if you felt the "ground" shake as a huge monster came stepping through the tunnels.

    --

  • and what exactly is a domend screen? You guys need a spellchecker.
  • Remember that Vincent Price movie where theater owners installed electric shock devices under various seats?

    You get gibbed on Q3A at 2 in the morning when your mouse sends 24 volts through your sweaty fingers. You will wet yourself.

    obligatory plug, blah blah blah [ridiculopathy.com]

  • wasn't this covered already??? [slashdot.org]

    This was on /. 2 days ago.... What's next? monitors that omit odors/scents?

  • If your playing Quake with only the keyboard no wonder your mouse wont stop commiting suicide... because you practicly are.
  • Let's just hope that they don't get pissed when we reverse engineer this puppy. Image: you must use our product the way it was intended.

    --
  • I never saw the rationale behind optical mice. The extra accuracy gained seems small compared to the massive increase in complexity, although it makes you wonder how companies like MS can charge £10 for a simple analogue one and only £35 for a mouse with an optical camera and significant processing hardware...
  • Actually, the complexity is simply *not* there... Once you get rid of all the mechanics - all the moving parts, the rest becomes very simple. THe mouse has a led diode? They are so cheap, it is essentially free. It needs more circuitry? Silicon is dirt cheap too. Design might be more expensive, as designing something new is always an expense, but it is a one-time investment. Once you did it, there are no recurring costs. Notice how cheap you can buy those new MS optical mice! Cheaper than many analog ones!

    ------------------------------------------------ -
  • What matters is the angular resolution. That is, what angle is subtended by each pixel from the viewing location. The human eye only resolves about 1 minute of arc, except for the case of horizontal lines parallel to the horizon, where we can resolve about 4 seconds of arc.

    You'd have to work out how much angle is subtended by each pixel at the viewing distance of this thing.
  • They even have an app to train people on finding land mines!

    Great, and when you do find them, the mouse blows your arm off.
  • nope. TruTheta is derived from the kind of lens used, which is an f-theta lens. marketing then came up with a name for the whole batch of tech. ~J
  • I saw the Vision Station in action two weeks ago at a demo Elumens held. They were running Q3demo on the screen. It looked horrible, and on top of that to get the best view you have to sit practically on top of the projector, which is between your legs. The special lens they use distorts the image. The Visions station will only work if the image being projected is meant to be projected on a curved surface, otherwise the image comes out looking like shit. Oh and 1024X768 is all it did, damn Elumens can't you guys do better than that!? ~Gov't Stooge
  • I really do not get these mice with a 1-D scroll.

    A middle button could be used for 2-D scroll with just some software (can KDE or Gnome do this?).
    Hold down middle, and move the mouse to scroll.

    Some would say, "I don't want to move the mouse to scroll". Well, you probably want a track ball, since you don't like moving the mouse. And again, some button would put it in scroll mode (software could make it act like a scroll lock button).

    End of rant.
  • For such a large projection and you can only attain 1024x768, hope thats wrong.. something that large needs a good mega res then I'll get my Q3 on.

    -M

  • Umm, no gamers and corporations(in THAT order) are forcing backwards compatibility on us, I'm 100% positive that MS would love to rewrite windows so it doesn't have the sphageti goop in it thats only there to support some assend software that .01% of the population uses.
  • Forget the mouse, does anyone know what kind of prices the huge monitor domes and rooms are running? Just for interest's sake, I'd like to know how many years I'd have to save up my worthless canadian dollars to be able to buy one.
  • Introducing, the MICROSOFT Force Feedback Marital Aid series of HUD devices!!! For couples who have difficulty pleasing each other we proudly bring you the Vibrating Intellimouse and Vibrating Intellimouse Pro. By using our specially designed training software (standard on all new Compaqs) you will be able to train yourself to touch your mate in all the right ways. Point, click, and drag your way to better sex. The mouse tells you when you're doing it right! Also available!!! The Microsoft CueCat Force Feedback USB dildo, powered by Direct-seX. This foxy feline is sure to make it's way into your heart... and your bed. ;-) Use the special red laser tracking system to target your mate's "favorite" bar codes. Yeaaaah, baby!
  • ...what the hell happened to A3D? Since Creative bought their asse[t]s, they have done nothing with the API itself. It was assumed that A3D would be integrated into Creative soundcards, but instead, Creative released "5.1" versions of their Live series two weeks ago. As far as I know, they have done nothing to the current Aureal drivers for Windows 2000 (which are now at beta build 49) and Linux (that is, if they even exist). I have tried to contact them, but that's like sending a message in a bottle; they just never seem to respond. I fear that I may have to build a better soundcard myself; I'm sure that in 6 or 7 years, Creative will still be in its position of "aloof king of soundcards."

  • They even have an app to train people on finding land mines!

    Don't they already have something like that included in Windows? Whatchamacallit Minesweeper? :)

    P.s: For the humor impaired - that was a joke

  • Hen Domen is a castle near Montgomery, Wales, so I assume domend would mean constructed in a manner similar to this castle. Because it was more or less replaced in the 13th century by the more famous Montgomery Castle, I assume domend technology will not last long either.
  • Ok, maybe the mouse thing is cheap enough - but I can guarantee you that the VisionStation is anything but.

    For one thing, the projector alone is going to set you back at least $2000 - probably more. The dome will probably run double or triple that. One thing that struck me as funny - aside from the desk, how is this thing different from the Flostation [flogiston.com]? The only differences I can see are front vs. rear projection, plus the VisionStation allows multiple people to share the same view (or nearly the same - seems like unless you looked at the exact center of the screen, things would be distorted). Actually, the FloStation allows users to share the experience, just in seperate stations, networked together. Plus, the chair is a "zero-G" chair, which allows for a comfortable position during use.

    However, neither of these technologies is cheap.

    And true, neither is true immersion (though the Flostation comes much closer).

    True immersion is when I can look anywhere around me - turn my head, duck, look between my legs, peer around the edge of a building, etc. I have only experienced this kind of immersion once - using the Virtuality 1000/2000 machines. Almost everything in them were OTS, and while the HMD's could have been better, they weren't bad. I am sure today's offerings (what little there is) are even better, but still not cheap.

    No one but a rich geek will be able to afford these for personal use. So what can all of the normal geeks do?

    Simple.

    Break out the soldering iron, and build your immersive experience!

    I am not saying you will get the best of the best - it is homebrew, after all. But with today's PC's, and cheap prices on LCD TV's, anyone can build thier own HMD, for less than $500. In fact, it is easy to buy an old VFX-1 or, if you are really cheap (like me), and old Stuntmaster, off of Ebay. VFX-1's go for about $200-$400, and Stuntmasters can be found for less than $50 in most cases!

    Head tracking can be built easily, and using a Forte Cyber-Puck for navigation, exploration can be painless (use the cyberpuck for nav in one hand, and use one of those handheld, trackball mice in the other for manipulation). Cobble some software together using AVRIL or REND-386, maybe throw in Mesa for good measure, or some other rendering library. Output the image through a VGA to TV converter, and into the HMD. Track the HMD via pots connected to ADC's on an ISA interface board (or use PICs and serial ports). Break out back issues of PCVR magazine, and use them!

    Heck, it is even possible to cheaply do one of these dome things, with imagination! Fuji used to make a cheap projector called the Fujix P-401 - it was about the size of a video tape, and ran on a 6V source. Not great res, but good enough. I recently found one for $250!!! Build a dome screen (definitely not the easiest task, I imagine), run a version of FishEye Quake [gamesinferno.com], and you're there!

    What has heppened? Why isn't there any interest in homebrew VR (on a related issue, why did they change the terminology from VR to VE)? Why, especially when we have all of this great technology to produce greater realism than ever before? To explore worlds of our own creation, data in new ways for new insights...

    Or are we simply content to sit on our collective asses, and watch the world go by?


    I support the EFF [eff.org] - do you?
  • How realistic can it be if all the sensory input (to the body) goes through the mouse? Yay! My hand is shaking, but my ass isn't...

    That's because you don't the the mouse positioned properly. Lot safer than hampsters, no?

  • In that case this is usefull to you just use the vibrating mouse in plase of your other hand
  • You should look around and price some used/surplus lcd projectors, get a few video cards and you're set! Of course, you need a dim room and screens on your walls. Damn, that would be sweet!

    I scored an LCD projector from a company that was shutting down one of its' offices, got it for 150 bucks and let me testify: they're easily worth 20 times that. I ran my computer on it for a while (floor to ceiling quakeII will damage you permenantly!), but when I got my DVD player, it became the defacto display for it. I have a movie theater in my living room (completely covers one bare wall), and that's WAY cooler than having the biggest monitor on the block!

  • Man, this would make one hell of a practical joke for some unsuspecting user. Just send some low noise, and have their mouse jump in their hands. Couple this with a message box like "Machine is not properly grounded, please shut down immediately to avoid electrocution", and you could really scare the crap out of someone.

    Don't use low noise. Send a loud spark-gap type of sound.

    I can just see people doing this through netbus (if these type of mice become commonplace), and watching the user's reactions via webcam (and/or microphone).

    --

  • Hate to rain on parades, but... (Score:4)

    by Seumas ( 6865 ) on Friday October 13, 2000 @04:23AM (#708844)
    First, I have to disagree with Sharky's comment which eluded to optical mice being lame. I've really enjoyed my neutered mouse. It handles Quake and other games just fine and I haven't had to clean it or do.. well, much of anything to it since I purchased it.

    I hate to rain on people's parades -- especially when they've put so much hard work into their cool devices...

    ...But, why would anyone want this? It seems like just another 'rumble pack' like they had for the N64. Whoo. I fell, my mouse shook. Amazing.

    How realistic can it be if all the sensory input (to the body) goes through the mouse? Yay! My hand is shaking, but my ass isn't...

    Perhaps this 'tool' will find a use as some sort of feminine stimulation device -- like the ones you see sold on late night television or in the back of magazines desguised as 'personal massage' utilities...
    ---
    seumas.com

  • Just do what I do...hook the computer up to the stereo, crank the base on the stereo up all the way, and have the whole room shake while you are playing on the computer. And if your stereo is good enough you can shake your neighbors mice as well...

    FoonDog
  • I swear, you know the primary use of this will be:
    • Sex Toy
    • Games
    In that order. Personally, I don't think promoting masturbation by creating "enabling" tools such as these is appropriate for manufacturers or the buying public. I think I'll forward this one off to Tipper and Joe...
  • Bet it'd be real nice when you do audio editing start playback to see what you've got and all of a sudden your mouse starts jumping all over the place ruining everything you've done.
  • I did this and i made the mistake of putting stuff on top of the speakers :( it threw my phone at me.

  • Hmm... (Score:3)

    by B00yah ( 213676 ) on Friday October 13, 2000 @04:22AM (#708849) Homepage
    My mouse has enough problems going across the screen, the last thing i need is it fighting back...
  • I think that this mouse might find some use outside of gaming. For instance, people that are hearing impaired might find this very useful to get non-visual feedback from their computer. Also, this could be used in a quiet office environment for various types of system alerts/incoming e-mails/etc. Though for most people, including myself it's kinda useless.
  • So they put something similar to force feedback into a mouse. Goodidea...It's a good toy but wouldn't it get annoying after awhile

  • Re:Hate to rain on parades, but... (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    My hand is shaking, but my ass isn't...

    You, my friend, need a better DJ.

  • Practical Joke (Score:4)

    by Craig Maloney ( 1104 ) on Friday October 13, 2000 @04:27AM (#708853) Homepage
    Man, this would make one hell of a practical joke for some unsuspecting user. Just send some low noise, and have their mouse jump in their hands. Couple this with a message box like "Machine is not properly grounded, please shut down immediately to avoid electrocution", and you could really scare the crap out of someone.
  • Could you generate a set of sounds that would move the mouse, as in this story [slashdot.org]?

    I can see writing a trojan horse that would move somebody's mouse around without them even touching it. Possessed computer!
    --
  • "rentaghost sent us a sharky bit about a mouse feedback device that actually connects to your audio output to the mouse to add vibrations. It's OS independant too."

    Okay, first off, it's "independent, as in "independent clause"; not independant, as in "Independant Worm Saloon".

    Why not just buy an extra subwoofer to place under the table which has the mousepad? Or even better, an extra subwoofer strategically placed under the chair for that special gut-thumping experience? Personally, I have two 1-meter speakers (with 8-inch woofers) on each end of my room. It sounds excellent when playing Quake 1 and Quake 3 (Q2 never had enough bass), as well as Counter-Strike.

  • Re:Hate to rain on parades, but... (Score:3)

    by slim ( 1652 ) <johnNO@SPAMhartnup.net> on Friday October 13, 2000 @05:01AM (#708856) Homepage
    ..But, why would anyone want this? It seems like just another 'rumble pack' like they had for the N64. Whoo. I fell, my mouse shook. Amazing.

    Vibrating console controllers did indeed seem like a silly idea when they first came out - but when programmed well, they can be amazingly effective. Two examples come to mind. The bumps and crashes in Gran Turismo - the vibration really does add to the experience. Silent Hill - as your character becomes weak, his heart beats harder. The closer he is to death, the louder his heart beats, and the more the controller shakes, in time to the heartbeat.

    This device could be the PC equivalent, although merely linking vibration to the audio output is probably not all that effective.

    Hmmm... I used to live in a house with a very shaky floor. I wonder how effective it'd be to somehow link the vibration instructions from a Playstation to a subwoofer of some kind?


    --
  • Say I'm playing quake using only the keyboard?
    I get shot and my mouse commits ritual suicide off my desk?

    I've already wasted money on a rumble pack, never again, a gimmick of the naffest kind.

    FatPhil
  • What you want is this [smarthome.com], reviewed here [clarksynthesis.com]. Nothing is too much cooler than a 1G Tacticle Transducer.
  • Umm, ever actually used an Intellimouse? When you hold down the scroll wheel button and move the mouse, *gasp* the screen scrolls in whatever direction you hold the mouse. You can even set it up as a toggle, so you click the scroll button once to turn the screen scroll on or off. It's kinda funky. I can't speak for the Logitech mice, or one from other companies, but the MS mice have had this since the scroll wheel was first introduced. I've not yet seen any support for this under linux (RedHat up thru 7.0, specifically), but I'm sure someone could write it up as good or better than the MS windows implementation.
  • I never saw the rationale behind optical mice. The extra accuracy gained seems small compared to the massive increase in complexity, although it makes you wonder how companies like MS can charge £10 for a simple analogue one and only £35 for a mouse with an optical camera and significant processing hardware...

    Optical mice are just better. They never wear out or need to be cleaned. As an end user, I really like that and I'm willing to pay for it. What more rationale do you need?

    I'm not sure why you're complaining that it's too complex. It's not like it's an operating system that becomes harder to program. It works just like an ordinary mouse for both users and programmers; how does this additional complexity disadvantage anyone? That's kind of like saying that the increase in speed of the Pentium 4 doesn't justify the huge increase in complexity.

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