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Handhelds Hardware

New Sony Palm, With Removable Memory Stick 113

Posted by Hemos from the i-think-i-might-need-to-upgrade-my-five dept.
A reader sent to us the story that the fruits of the Palm/Sony alliance have been unveiled. Yes, it's the Palm V - sort of. It's got a jog dial with navigation - but the kicker is the Sony memory stick that's built in. That means for all those times that you fill up the memory with Kyle's Quest...I mean important notes, you can swap the stick out. Not amazing, but cool for a first product.
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New Sony Palm, With Removable Memory Stick More

New Sony Palm, With Removable Memory Stick

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  • Hmmm... I was under the impression that the Aibo actually crapped memory sticks. Or perhaps that's just a core dump...
    • I travel a lot and I've often had a device run out of batteries in a place where I didn't have a chance to recharge the device for several hours or days, leaving me in trouble.
    Normally, I too would be against a device like this. But, there are 3rd party solutions available. One that comes to mind is the Palm Emergency Charger [the-gadgeteer.com]. This little device runs off a 9-volt battery and connects to your Palm device, for use as a charger. There you go -- no more "arggh, I don't have a power outlet" problems :).

    Alex Bischoff
    Interested in building a roof over your cubicle? [slashdot.org]
    ---

  • On top of that, li-ion batteries will die completely after a few years (2-3 maybe) after which your device is totally useless.

    Where? I've got Li-ion batteries in this notebook that haven't died in two years or even reduced in performance. I still get 3 hours out of it (just over 2 watching DVD).

    Are you perhaps thinking of NiCd or NiMH?

  • I think they have been in use for a couple years or so, several of Sony's portable MiniDisc and CD players can take either, some portable MiniDisc players are so small that they only support that type of battery.

    This thing looks thinner than your thin palm, even thinner than the V unit. I hope it's as sturdy as the Sony MD player I have, that thing has taken some harsh falls and it keeps on working. The limited number of compatible OSs stops me from considering it though.
  • The same as MiniDisc, with over 15 vendors of that technology? I wouldn't call that getting "sucked into one vendor". Please check your facts before posting. Sony has licensed MemoryStick technology to several other companies.
  • There is already a solution for removable memory. It is by TRG and it's called the Trg Pro [trgpro.com]

    It uses Compact Flash technology on a modified Palm IIIx platform. I think you can even get one of those IBM microDrives in a CF card....

  • Actually, everyone I know who has had contact with TRG service (this includes me!) has found it to be excellent.

    In contrast, accounts of Handspring service vary from adequate to nonexistent!

  • There was a story that Palm was going to come out with a device using Sony technology. I submitted to suck dot and they rejected it. Then viola. Someone else submits a similar story.

    Mine was titled "Palm to adopt alternative expansion slot technolog (articles,news)" and was submitted on 2000-06-27 16:01:10.

    Boy slashdot you are really sucking butt these days. You used to have news artilces and updates several times a day, now it seems that news trickles. And this moderation crap you have implemeted really suck also. Stuff gets moderated based on someone elses opinion, that may not agree with everyones. There are some very good stories and posts that I am sure are being moderated down, because someone does not agree with them.

    That being said. I imagine by the end of this year to middle of next year that Palm , Sony and Handspring as well as IBM (yes IBM does palm devices too) and a slew of other companies will all be selling palms with these ports and IR and color, as well as wireless. They will be as 'standardized' as wireless phones are. They will run a mirid of OS from Win CE, Linux, to Palm OS and lord knows what else. Is this good. Yes it offers people choices. However it makes for writing applications a platform thing afain. Do I write for Palm, Wince or who.

    What the f** is this wait one minute between posts???
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    I don't want a lot, I just want it all ;-)
    Flame away, I have a hose!

  • Size. That's all. You can get the thing only so thin if you use AAA batteries. Sony wanted to make something the size of a Palm V, so LiIon is the way to go. Battery wear is not an issue. You don't need to recharge a Palm-type device as often as a cellphone, so the battery will have a longer life. I believe that with your light usage (AAAs on my lightly used IIIx only last 4 weeks) the Sony will be obsolete long before the battery wears out.
  • when i used to have a palm i used to have a hackmaster applet that allowed me to slide the pen across the application button to go foward and back between apps (it wasn't actually multitasking, but it was a neat hack) i'm prertty sure it's called switchhack
  • I went to the Sony Showroom in Ginza(Tokyo), the supposedly only place where these sweeties are currently on public display.

    1. Size: Not as big as they look on the photos. The right width to hold in an European's palm. The corners are a bit "hard" and not as ergonomic/confortable to hold as the Palm Vx.

    2: Jog Dial: Very confortable. only need one hand to check some address or quick memo. But if you have many items, turning the wheel becomes a heavy job as the wheel is a bit too small

    3: Color LCD: Better than the Palm IIIc. The contrast wasn't too good indoors with strong white lighting. Supposedly better outdoors. Black wasn't really "BLACK", like old color ink-jet printers with no black cartridge.

    I had ordered a color Clie via www.sonystyle.co.jp (about USD 120 cheaper than retail), but changed my mind after seeing the real thing to black-white. No need for color with an Palm.
    Can't wait for the delivery on the 9th :-)
  • The memory stick is Yet Another Proprietary Technology designed to lock you into to a single manufacturer. Just as bad, it was completely unnecessary --- there's already Compact Flash and Smart Media that work just as well, if not better. The last thing we needed was Yet Another Memory Card Format. I will have nothing to do with it.
  • The idea that market behavior is an adequate inducement for companies to behave ethically is the real problem. Your boycott won't make a damn bit of difference if most people don't care enough to go without or are too dependant on the products in question, or in the case MPAA and RIAA, buy off the government through lobbying. A corporation's goal is to maximize profits through any means it can get away with. The most effective way to change what they can get away with as at the polls, not the checkout counter.
  • Because of the USB cradle. It says they have a serial cradle in the works, but is still MS-only. Actually, the accessories page lists Windows 95 on both cradles. Hmm...

    Anyways, any operating system should able to write to a serial port. If they don't support Win95 or MacOS, it simply means they are too lazy or too incompetent to write portable software.

    Palm supports Linux, indirectly, by cooperating with the developers of the Palm-targetted gcc and the Linux Palm utilities, and have taken the Palm emulator (including the Linux port) under their wing.

    Handspring actually promotes [handspring.com] the palm-targetted gcc under Windows for those who don't want to use CodeWarrior, though, like Palm, I don't think they officially support Linux conduits. But that's ok, we have this [linuxdoc.org] and this [linuxdoc.org], and I'd rather our stuff be open source anyways. I wonder how Sony will react when someone reverse-engineers their cradle protocol...
  • The attitude that "I can't make a difference, it's only $200" is exactly what keeps these companies entrenched in the market. Of course your $200 makes a difference to them! Especially if your friends follow your example, and your friends' friends, and their friends, etc.

    If more people would follow their conscience when buying/voting/being we wouldn't have nearly as many problems as we do now.

    <offtopic>
    I hear the same rants about Ralph Nader. "Don't vode for Nader, 'cause that will get Bush in office!". Well, that statement is only true because we are all terrified of what will happen if Bush gets in office. Even though Nader appeals much more to people who want to restrict the role of business in government/personal life, for some reason voting their conscience is impossible.
    </offtopic>
  • The Memory Stick is the ONLY storage that comes standard with the Sony Vaio C1 (the REALLY Small one). What implications do you speak of? The memory stick is IMHO a good technology.

    Other than Sony Music being anti-napster (BTW, Sony Music is a Subsidiary company run by Tommy Mattola, very separate from these guys) Sony has done nothing bad that I can think of.

    Fill me in if I am wrong.
  • they allready make an MP3 player that does just that Using the memory stick
  • bugger, I was going to get one until I read this article. My shop is NT 4 only.

    How is that obsolete? My palm runs quite happy on it. :-(
  • I'm hoping I can pick your brain about your TRGpro , because I'm leaning to buy one of them over all the rest so far.

    I'm in the market for a Palm and I'm SERIOUSLY
    considering a TRGpro based on the fact that
    it seems to be the ONLY PALM (Would love to be corrected on this if I'm wrong) that can have
    more then one addon device or card attached to it at the same time. All others, appearently even the Visor, only has the ability to add ONE device.. and I'm not thrilled about swappin devices in and out more then I have to.

    I called TRGpro and asked them about getting a wireless modem.. They were reluctant to tell me based on this not OFFICALLY being supported, but they say the Palm III Minstrel modem at http://www.novatelwireless.com/ will attach to the TRGpro but they don't offically recommend it because it doesn't snap on all the way, forcing you to hold it on with a rubberband or something.

    I NEED to have Wireless for the work I do. I wanted to also have COLOR because I really like the idea of color... So I looked at the Palm IIIc, but they don't have a wireless modem yet (sigh) and honestly... I like the idea of being able to have a 1GB card in my TRGpro more then simply having color so I think I'm going with that. :)

    How easy does the PalmOS handle another storage area though? How do I select whether I want to store something in the 8megs of ram, the 2megs of flash, or the 1GB of space? And can I use that space for anything? Like running Palm Apps right from that space?

    When you went thru your selection process, which PDAs did you have it narrowed down to? Which were the features that made you hesitate on which one to buy?

    Also, any ideas on where TRGpro is going from here? The Tech guy I talked to didn't have much to say. I'm very interested on the direction of this company though... if they play it right, they could rise up out of all this PDA mess as the MOST SENSIBLE PDA to get in my opinion. I'd like to see them have built in Bluetooth and go color honestly. If they could have the CF Slot, 8megs of ram, serial addon slot, Color, and Bluetooth... WOAH... There would be NO COMPETITION. :)

    And just so you can't say I wasn't informative in this post....
    http://www.pacificneotek.com/omnisw.htm
    OmniRemote, lets you turn your Palm into a SUPER Universal Remote. God I can't wait for that.. And theres another project on the web that will let you have a IR Remote for your WinAMP, displaying song titles in your Palm and everything. Oh boy oh boy!! :)

    Thanks!

    -Matthew Cortes
    Chief Technology Officer
    Landway Securities, Inc.

  • Actualy, what I ment was that it had a SERIAL connection PLUS the CF Slot. The Visor only has a Serial slot, no?

    Therefore, the TRGpro allows two devices at once.. for example, the IBM 1GB MicroDrive, plus a wireless modem or the keyboard.

    The Visor though you say allows modeming and keyboard usage. So your telling me it has two connectors? I didn't see this when I went to the website. :(

    But ya, I'm also excited about the TRGpro speaker. They say you can play .WAV files (Does that mean MP3's too???, is there even a MP3 Player for the Palm?)... and they mention that its good enough to use up to a phone to dial phone numbers which is a BIG PLUS.

    -Matthew
  • Sony memory sticks are proprietary. There
    is no advantage to them whatsoever - if you buy
    products that use them, you are just fucking
    yourself over. The costs of memory sticks will
    always be higher because there is no competition
    in manufacturing them. We don't need another
    incompatible flash memory format!

    It's like ZIP disks -- they patented the
    mechanism for identifying them, and ZIP media
    costs ten times what it should, and the cost
    has never gone down.

    WAKE UP!

  • For those who travel a lot with the Palm V, and IIIc, it's worth getting one of these:

    http://members.aol.com/gmayhak/tcl/ e-charge.htm [aol.com].

    I use one with my Palm V. When I need a charge on the road, I just hook up a 9V battery overnight, and I'm fresh to go in the AM. I'm sure you'll see one of these made for the Sony PDA.

  • not really a big deal. The interesting thing was that it had a 'movie player' program on it (if you can image a movie in 4( 16?) tone grayscale). There was no 'sound', per se, just video.

    If they're gonna promote video on the palm, then it'll NEED the memory-sticks!

  • What implications might those be?
  • There is also a GPLed one called Phlegm Hack [simplenet.com]. You can drag from the menu button to the home button to get a menu of recient and favorite programs, or from the home button to the graffiti area to switch to the previous one.
  • From the: Gee,-is-that-all-the-better-ya-got-up-your-sleeve? dept.

    Honestly, I didn't expect such a mind-numbing breakthrough to happen to a Palm. Gee, what next, a handy-carrying case? In all seriousness, yeah, having a removable memory stick is interesting. I can see some applications for that. But honestly, just having upgradable memory would be enough. I don't slip the DIMMs out of my PC every time they fill up (granted, different kind of idea, since the RAM is the storage space), but wouldn't they be better off coming up with some sort of storage other than flash memory? Say maybe a small harddisk, or secondary memory where you could store backups? That sounds like a handier deal than swapable memory.
  • Never filled the 2 MB on your palm....???
    I got the IIIse as a starter. I've got 90 kb left in it's 2000 KB.
    The biggest hog is Avantgo with a newspaper, Salon, and Wired and Lastminute.com
    Then come the ebooks with
    The Black Arrow (or some other Public Domain novel), a Palm Newsheet, and a top 100 wine guide.
    a few small games from chess, chinese chess and cribbage
    Also an "encrypted" password holder
    A shopping list
    An image viewer with a map of the London Underground
    and that's about it...!
    I guess yours is just being an organiser?
  • cool springboard modules?
    you mean, they've actually come out with a few? Besides that helluva expensive mp3 player that was 5 months late?
  • As a Palm IIIx user, I've been really disappointed about the lack of add-ins for that model. Perhaps having a player with the seriously cool lab rats that Sony has on the job, a truly noble replacement will be coming out. Perhaps a dual-platform Palm/Linux model? :-) Just LJ
  • We've been having a ball with this over at PalmStation [palmstation.com]: see this thread [palmstation.com].
    (for palmstation, 40+ is a lot of posts, ok? ;))
    -J
  • Hmm, i see your point about using CF for anything beyond storage. While there are some CF devices compatible with the TRG, it suggersts a bit of a dead-end in the devices design

    So i wonder rhow long it will be until someone devleops a CF reader for the springboard slot... ;)
    -J
  • Color ones are available in Japan, but only in Japan.
  • ... but did the original press release last November promise a sub-$200 color, wireless internet device for the first Sony handheld? Has Sony made any attempt to explain how we wound up w/ a $400 b/w Palm V? Just curious.
  • I seem to recall reading somewhere that springboard is actually the same interface as a current format (someone want to help me out here?)

    Springboard is a completely new bus. However, Handspring used the standard 68-pin connector from PCMCIA cards. The pinout is completely different, but the connector is the same one.

    Handspring did their best to make it easy to make new Springboard hardware. The connector is standard. The plastic shell is not standard, but you can buy five different shells [handspring.com] off-the-shelf. (This is great if you don't want to invest hundreds of thousands of dollars for injection molds and tooling to make your own.)

    By the way, Springboard is an open spec: no secrets, no royalties. You can download everything from the Handspring web site Developers page [handspring.com]. For example, the Springboard White Paper [handspring.com].

    steveha

  • What these PalmOS devices need is a standard formfactor for expansion. Wince devices have CompactFlash and/or PCMCIA. If I wanted to, I could pop the D-Link NIC outta my laptop and into one of the many Wince machines out there that have that slot and hook up to my lan here at work. Oh wait, is there a Wince Novell client yet? n/m. But, the point of it being that the Springboard idea isn't bad but proprietary so it is nothing but a cash grab. Palm still has the better PalmOS device (I really do like the IIIc) but is even worse for expansion. When will they learn? Don't emulate the Wince machines (Gawd no) but atleast give us some of the features.

  • From Gartner: features Sony's trademark thumbwheel. The thumbwheel enables a person to scroll down, though it is less effective for scrolling up.

    Anyone used this? Between AvantGo and PalmDocs, I read a LOT on my Handspring. It's great, I love it, but I have often felt that the ergonomics could be better. You really have to have opposable thumbs to hit that front-mounted down-button -- I'd like to see one on either side, for left and right handed use.

    --

  • Having looked at /code it checks for repeated anythingcheck this out
  • Use the Handspring Visor. It uses the Palm OS, but not the Palm Hardware.
  • Or Zip disks from the criminals at iomega.
  • Sony is pretty strapped for cash now that you didn't spend that $200.
  • Sony has licensed Memory Stick to several other companies, but that still won't solve the problems that Memory Stick = oppression. And AFAIK, CompactFlash is a totally open spec that doesn't even require licenses.
  • The TRGPro [www.trgpro] uses compact flash to attain the same results. With the IBM [ibm.com] microdrive [ibm.com], this means up to 1GB storage. The TRGPro site is currently down, so check out HandHeld Interfaces [handheldinterfaces.com] to look at the specs (Prices in CDN ).
  • It always seems to be Sony that brings about a revolution in electronics, be it the Walkman, or the DVD.

    I don't think its fair to credit Sony alone for the revolutionary developments in electronics of the last 25 years. Both the CD and DVD formats were developed in collaborations with others (primarily Phillips if my memory serves correctly). And when one thinks of a "revolution" spawned by Sony its hard not to think immediately of Betamax and its ultimate failure.

    I think the important question to ask as Sony enters the PDA business is what new ideas are they going to bring to the product? The CNET story states "Analysts expect Sony to eventually release a family of devices that will feature stronger multimedia and wireless capabilities than the Clie." Wireless capabilities? Can you say Palm VII? Multimedia? Thank you, marketing! To consider a development in the PDA world revolutionary, I would look to some major change in the way that we interact with the device rather than just additional bells and whistles. (I'm thinking something along the lines of wearables [mit.edu].

  • Remember this [slashdot.org] and this [slashdot.org]? This is what Steve Heckler meant about firewalling MP3s at your home. When they make all the hardware and it all uses memory sticks for storage, it would not be difficult to make memory sticks that refuse to store MP3 files. If you want a future where flash memory cards will work in your open mp3 player support Compactflash and Smartmedia. Sony already has the Music Clip and Memory Stick walkman which only play their "secure" ATRAC3 format. As nice as it would be to have a Palm with 128MB of flash, I'd avoid supporting any Memory Stick device.

    See one user's rant here [home.com].
  • Some random thoughts about CLIE

    Looked at the CLIE site yesterday and while interesting, there are a few things that I was surprised about:

    1. No wireless modem: You'd think that with the increase in usage for those, Sony would at least have made an effort to announce one coming in the future. Nothing along those lines.

    2. Bad speaker: I guess Sony doesn't want to steal marketshares away from their MP3 players. However, it would have been nice if they had put in a good speaker set and offered an MP3 expansion module.

    3. Video? Interesting concept but how much will you be able to fit on each stick. Unless they have a super-compressed format, I doubt this will be any more useful than just as a gadget.

    4. No color: You'd think that if they want to expand, color makes sense.

    Some potential ideas for add-ons:

    Those mentionned above: MP3 player and wireless modem!

    Software emulator for PS games with the games coming on expansion slots

    Software program tool to program AIBO brain

    Bluetooh module to hook up to camera or cell phone (Sony makes both so that would make sense)

    Form factor looks fine but what's the deal with the two metallic bars on the sides?

    This offering has potentials BUT for now, it still looks like Handspring has the advantage.
  • I don't think its fair to credit Sony alone for the revolutionary developments in electronics of the last 25 years. Both the CD and DVD formats were developed in collaborations with others (primarily Phillips if my memory serves correctly). And when one thinks of a "revolution" spawned by Sony its hard not to think immediately of Betamax and its ultimate failure.

    This can't really come out to being much of betamax. Memory stick could be, except it's already disgustingly popular. Betamax was where they had a standard whose licensing was too strict, and they couldn't afford to keep it alive. Minidisc would have been the same thing, except that Sony has more money than god, quite a bit of which the Playstation is responsible for these days. Sony just kept pouring money into it until people jumped on the bandwagon. Memory stick looks to be the same way.

    You are right about Sony not being the end-all be-all, though. They had a ton of help from other sources, and yes you're right about Philips being instrumental. The walkman, of course, is significant.

    Sony's real power (besides making incredibly cool video game systems) is that they can refine any device to near-perfection. What they've done with digital cameras, laptop PCs, and portable audio devices is nothing less than impressive. They make devices that are easy to use, reliable (Since they finally figured out how to make a CD lens mechanism that doesn't die) and look cool when you wear them. They also, I might add, created the best video game controllers on the planet, the Dual Shock and its older brother, DS2. Feedback, dual analog, pressure-sensitive buttons with a good layout. Go Sony.

    Too bad Sony Music is so lame.

  • I wouldn't count on this. At least not on them linking with an open MP3 player. Sony is pretty anti MP3 and have a competing format out there that is encrypted to reduce the pirating of music.

    Sony has three mp3 players now, all of which also support their ATRAC3 format (Which, IIRC, is the format used on Minidisc, sort of an Mpeg 1 Layer 2.5 audio.)

    Two of them use memory stick.

  • I agree, but at the same time, I think handspring's decision to use their "springboard" format was rather silly. The TRGPro does the smae kind of thing, but with a CF slot - which is much more of an industry standard than the springboard slot. I seem to recall reading somewhere that springboard is actually the same interface as a current format (someone want to help me out here?), but the moduels still have to be specially shaped for the springboard slot.

    Compactflash is only really suitable for storage devices, mostly memory. Using it for anything else is cumbersome.

    Springboard is more of a traditional bus, and it is easier and cheaper to use it for general expansion.

    One suspects that TRG [trgpro.com] already had the CF hardware designed and merely grafted it onto palmpilot because they were seeking direction, but one could be wrong.

    On a technical [handspring.com] note, WRT the springboard bus:
    "There is only one bus on the system - the Dragonball bus and both Dragonball RAM and Springboard ROM are attached to this same bus. So, transferring the application to the inside memory will not change much. "

    I hope this clears up your question.

  • Better than this are the SmartMedia or Compact Flash add on backs for your current Palm. My IIIx is wearing the Axxpac [axxpac.de] (admittedly an unfortunate name for a product)device that allows me to view photos from the SmartMedia card that my digital camera uses. There is even GPL'd ftp software software [cs.tubs.de] so that I can send my photos to the web using my Nokia 6190 the TDK Gobal Pulse. [tdksys.com] Sorry that this post has turned into a commercial, but I spent a long time figuring out how to get photos from Palm in to web wirelessly. I wouldn't want to choose which brand of digital camera based on what my Palm used for memory. SmartMedia also makes it a lot easier to fit ebooks into the Palm. (Applications won't run from Axxpac either though.)
  • where are all the pages where people have ripped open their palms and accelerated them or added more memory (like the TI calculators or something.)?
  • I already own a Palm V but I've been wanting a color one - a metal one, not a cheap one that won't hold up (Palm III). The only way I *would* buy the Sony is if they made it color. Palm evidentially could care less about what people want...so its up to Sony and Handspring to do it.
  • Totally (well, somewhat) off-topic here, but I have to agree about the Sony MD platform. YES its not an open standard, YES they have a stupid SDMI-like scheme to keep you from making serial copies (but its easy to defeat) and it'll probably be made obsolete when flash memory prices drop (by, like, a magnitude of 10-20)... BUT, for right now its the best damn portable music system out there. And the units are rock solid.
  • If it's anything like the jog dials on their other equipment then it's a "Good Thing" (TM). Think "a better mouse wheel" (in feel, the functionality is pretty much the same)
  • Excellent Point!

    There is no doubt in my mind that the "Memory Stick" is a fantastic idea. Sony is pushing it in their digital cameras, walkmans, laptops, PC's, and now PDA's. It could easily become more uniquitous than the floppy disk and really push the envelope of personal removable data storage.

    Now, If they would only open this up to other manufacturers on a grand scale, I would feel a lot better about it. Unfortunately, Sony isn't content with the prospect of licensing fees. They want to control the medium completely.
  • I didn't know that, and yet I still don't feel better. Man, I was wrong on both counts :(
  • I know what you mean. I was going to buy a laptop soon, and really wanted to get a Sony Vaio ultra light, but can't bring myself to buy one of their products. As for the PDA's, I'm waiting for a Linux based one, so that decision is pretty easy.

    I'm just glad I bought all my Sony home entertainment equipment before all this foolishness began.

  • I would think that in this case it could mean a future pda that will interface with mp3 players and such.
    I wouldn't count on this. At least not on them linking with an open MP3 player. Sony is pretty anti MP3 and have a competing format out there that is encrypted to reduce the pirating of music.
  • Palm/Pocket PC - Capabilities & Reality. Rebuttal [dictionary.com] from a CasioE100 [casio.co.jp] Owner:

    a) Don't compare processors... the Palm does everything quickly and efficiently with 16mhz. The Pocket PCs are 133mhz+....never intended to be an MP3 player.

    I have run 'tests' with a coworker who runs a PalmIII/V, we did blanket searches on a 'word' contained in our PIM databases. I retrieved my data faster on every attempt, regardless of 'type'. My device has 16 megs (8RAM/8ROM) with about 5-6MB of PIM data. Admittedly NOT scientific, but it was enough to convince the both of us.

    b) Palm Multi-platform friendly. The Pocket PC is all about Windows...iPaq can run linux, and Slashdot runs stories about it regularly).

    I have CF Ethernet [cewindows.net]. To send files back/forth I simply use FTP/SMTP. The Pocket PC does not sync with any Non-Windows PC PIM Software (that I am aware of). I can move files to the CasioE100 without any trouble from _ANY_ TCP/IP capable box.

    c) The Pocket PC has painfully little application support. VNC? SSH? Telnet?....generally more expensive than Palm.

    VNC [att.com]
    Telnet [cnet.com]
    SSH [movsoftware.com]

    There is plenty of software available. More than I can even try.

    d) No wireless support yet for Pocket PC...To me at least, there's no point getting a media rich Palm device if I can't use it to access the net.
    CF Modem [cewindows.net] that I use together [microsoft.com]with my phone [nokiausa.com]

    e) Cost, Cost, Cost. You can get Palms for as little as $149 ... NEW. Lower costs mean more accessibility to the geeks that write the code. :)

    You might have me on this one.

    CasioE100: $600
    CF Modem: $69 (MS Rebate deal)
    CF Ethernet: $180
    2 x 96MB CFRAM: $300 ea.
    Nokia Cell Phone: $200 (or so)
    Having the most technically capable, multimedia, wireless, portable Palm/Pocket (whatever) PC/PIM: Priceless.

    NOTE: I bought the device based on what it _CAN_ do by leveraging the OUTSTANDING hardware in a Palm/Pocket PC (at its time 10mos.) ago. I am not a great lover of M$, but their still is no comparing this device to _ANY_ Palm product. Please be realistic and leave the Anti-M$ zealotry out of your analysis.

  • This thing uses a memory stick, as well as a lot of other Sony equipment...I would think that in this case it could mean a future pda that will interface with mp3 players and such. They use the same memory sticks. Perhaps the Aibo has a memory stick too...that would be extra (geeky) cool. Imagine having a virtual pet on your palm then transferring it's brain to the Aibo. Imagine that bad monkey made by Minor Demons [minordemons.com] with a real body so it can get drunk, throw shit, and hump bunnies in real life!

    (If you don't know what I'm talking about, you obviously don't have a palm pilot or if you do have one, you use it for work too much!)

  • I think you made the same mistake I did. For whatever reason slashdot doesn't seem to let you set a target for the URL.
  • You want NiMH batteries. They are rechargable, but they have a drain curve that makes them compatible with digital cameras, unlike NiCds or even rechargable alkalines. I use them in my Visor and my digital camera, and am gradually building up my stock so I can have some in my GPS and handheld aviation radio.
    --
  • I guess they've done their research on this. For me I do travel some, but never for more than about a week, and my V has never run flat. This makes me extremely happy to not have to keep replacing batteries.
  • The TRGPro has only one expansion slot, just like the Visor. Therefore, only one expansion board at a time.

    However, either one can support cradle plugins at the same time as expansion board ones; many Visor users flaunt their ability to use a keyboard while modeming :-).

    IMO: the Visor is the right product for the right price -- but the TRGPro has a KILLER speaker. A speaker is FAR FAR more important than a color screen. I have a buzzer springboard for my Visor, so I'm close enough, but with the TRG it's builtin.

    OTOH, again, the Visor is both cheaper AND better-supported. TRG isn't at all good at marketing.

    -Billy
  • Yes, their service/support folks came through pretty well for me. I tried to write a careful and detailed bug report, which I hope helped; the response I got (in less than a day, probably about 4-5 business hours) was not only correct, it was courteous and even well-written.
  • I bought a TRGpro [trgpro.com] unit, which has a type 2 Compact Flash slot; that can hold many sizes of flash memory, the IBM microdrives, CF ethernet cards, CF modem cards, CF barcode scanners, etc. It's an open industry standard, with multiple manufacturers. Compare that to the sony memory stick (proprietary technology) and think about rambus licensing.

    I wasn't always so please with my TRGpro; it came with the now-infamous DRAM bug that lost data... But with an OS upgrade, that appears to have been fixed, and I love being able to back up my palm pilot any time without even having to be near a computer. :-)

  • Well, this is a duplicate post [slashdot.org] but the TRGpro [trgpro.com] got that part right. You can put an IBM microdrive in it.
  • I'm left-handed, and the jog-dial location doesn't look too friendly for us "sinister" users. Does anyone know if they're making lefty versions, or am i being hopelessly naive?
  • The Palm V is a very pleasing to look at piece of personal electronics; the Visor is rather visually appealing as well. This new Sony montrousity is just downright ugly!

    I think I'll stick with my Visor thankyouverymuch.
  • This new Sony montrousity is just downright ugly!

    No doubt! Hopefully you'll be able to run programs straight off of that memory stick (like the new TRG's) otherwise, I'm a lot more tempted to upgrade that m100 to 8 megs...
  • You can still consider the "Memory St(r)ick" as a reason for er... disliking them. It is a technology with very serious implications. Seeing it get a foothold gives me shivers.
  • "Slashdot probably rejected it because it was wrong." NO it was not wrong. It was a news article. Slashdot rejected it because slashdot sucks these days and rejects everything, that they do not agree with. It is no longer news for nerds but selective news that was selected by a selected few.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    I don't want a lot, I just want it all ;-)
    Flame away, I have a hose!
  • I think they need to come out with a portable Minidisc recorder like this one [sony.com] but with the ability to interface to the palm or a PC for data storage. Ideally, as a "backpack" or some kind of extension like modems or other palm peripherals so that it felt like "one" thing.

    One of the things that turns me off about memory stick is its cost relative to its size. MDs hold about 270M. When you and I get together and I have some data I want to give you, I'd have no problem slipping you a MD which cost me $4. If you think I'm slipping you a memory stick, you're out of your fsck'n mind.

    One thing that drives me crazy is Sony's refusal to do anything with the MD format (like play MP3s with it) other than a marginally successful replacement for cassettes and their insistance on pushing the memory stick format where MD would be much cooler.
  • I wonder what the battery drain is like between stick to RAM. That has been one of the biggest drain for most flash enabled devices (digital cameras specifically)
  • I think they need to come out with a portable Minidisc recorder like this one but with the ability to interface to the palm or a PC for data storage. Ideally, as a "backpack" or some kind of extension like modems or other palm peripherals so that it felt like "one" thing.

    You mean like this [minidisc.org]?

    Too bad it was an April Fool's hoax (which I fell for, hook, line, and sinker. I suck.), but it was a good one. And it's a genius idea, Sony (or somebody) really oughta do it.

    The feature list should have tipped me off - it just did too much :-) All kinds of crazy shit: playing minidiscs, interface (via USB) to a computer to act as a removable 140MB drive, everything a Palm can do (including a color model), use minidiscs as storage for the Palm, etc, etc...

    Dammit, now I want one again :-(
    --
  • A color screen requires more memory in the graphics subsystem; you couldn't replace the physical screen like that without side effects. Of course, perhaps the "screen module" would have memory on it -- or the base module would have more that enough for mono and enough for color.

    Actually, if you want a modular wearable device go make a case for PC/104 cards. The base unit can have the PC/104 motherboard, and the screen module have the graphics card along with the screen; the PC/104 bus has all the ISA signals, so the screen module becomes part of the system.

    And you could have sleeves that insert between the base and the screen for stacking additional cards, for the people with special hardware needs.

  • If you want to support Palm over CE, then buy a Palm not made by Sony. The memory stick add-on isn't that nifty anyway. Handspring's Visor has much more expandability than just the ability to add more RAM.

    I own a Visor, and I like the expandability provided by the Springboard modules, but I admire TRGPro [trgpro.com] for using the industry standard CompactFlash interface (just think, you could add the new IBM 1GB CompactFlash hard drive [ibm.com] to your palm device).

  • What would rule is if they came up with a standard sized li-ion battery.. For instance EXACTLY the same size as AAA batteries. That way you could use them in existing Palm's, use AAA's in devices that come with li-ions in case of emergencies.. etc.. If it's too big, maybe it's time for a smaller "normal" battery size? Keeping li-ions and normal batteries the same size has a lot of benefits for the end users tho.

    Now there seems there's no real standard on li-ion (and other types of re-chargable) batteries. There are some NiCd batteries (AA, AAA etc. sized) but NiCd totally sucks.. They drain fast, leak.. No good..
  • Without starting another PocketPC/Palm debate:

    a) Don't compare processors... the Palm does everything quickly and efficiently with 16mhz. The Pocket PCs are 133mhz+ because of UI bloat, and the high demands/priority the product line puts on multimedia. The only Pocket PC that seems faster than Palm is the iPaq at 206mhz. The Palm was never intended to be an MP3 player.

    b) Palm Multi-platform friendly. The Pocket PC is all about Windows. As far as I know, you're SOL if you're on any other platform (BeOS, Linux, BSD, MacOS, etc.) The world isn't just Windows anymore -- and certainly Slashdot readers are far more zealous about things that work with Linux and run Linux (note: the iPaq can run linux, and Slashdot runs stories about it regularly).

    c) The Pocket PC has painfully little application support. VNC? SSH? Telnet? These are all freely available for the Palm. You have to buy the Ruksun packages for Pocket PC. Pocket PC apps seem to be generally more expensive than Palm.

    d) No wireless support yet for Pocket PC. Yes, the Jornada has a wireless sled coming, and with the PCMCIA sleeve (yet to be released) you can go wireless with an iPaq. However, until then, the Palm V can go wireless with Omnisky (best choice), Palm III series can go wireless with Novatel modems and GoAmerica, and the Palm VII has built-in wireless. To me at least, there's no point getting a media rich Palm device if I can't use it to access the net.

    e) Cost, Cost, Cost. You can get Palms for as little as $149 ... NEW. Lower costs mean more accessibility to the geeks that write the code. :)

  • I just wanted to point out that the TRGpro available from TRG Corporation [trgpro.com] does the same sort of thing, but uses a CompactFlash card instead, thereby supporting that standard. (This also means you could use an IBM 340MB Microdrive in the thing, if you like your batteries to be depleted every two or three days!) The TRGpro also contains CFPro, which (unlike this Sony unit) DOES let you run apps off of external memory (provided they are read-only and use read-only databases; inline write support isn't possible yet).

    In addition, The TRGpro boasts a true speaker instead of the Palm's piezo buzzer, and Benchmark puts my unit at 160% the speed of a Palm IIIx/Palm V. Sure, it's modeled after a Palm III (actually, it's the exact same casing), and it's a bit more expensive than a IIIxe, but the screen is more like Palm V quality (no streaking, and support for 4-bit grayscale with OS 3.5). All around, it hasn't disappointed me yet.


    GSL

  • First, MD only holds ~120M. The transfer rate of the audio MDs is 256kbps which is the rate at which the audio is encoded. Sony had developed a Data MD standard and even a SCSI MD drive, but transfer rate was about the same as a 1x CD-ROM, the discs [minidisco.com] are still used in some multitrack recording systems. Sony has recently came out with a high density MD which they call MD^2 or MD View depending on the day of the week, this disc stores 640MB and was originally (IIRC) to be used as the PS2's software format. However both the MD Data and MD^2 discs run about $15 a piece, still less than Memory Stick, but still not the $2 that an audio disc costs.
  • Well I kinda like the concept, but not those implications...

    "Memorystick" Sounds like something from neuromancer, doesn't it?

  • Well I guess I'm just spoiled after too much delphi...

    True, you don't really need too advanced tools for the apps you make for palm. You don't really need those nifty code completion functionalities and so on. Still, when you switch platform between almost every project, like I do, you dont want to look up anything more than neccesary, dont want to stop to think "what was the problem with *this* debugger again".

    *Sigh* I will probably port a Plam app to PocketPC next. That will be an intresting comparison.

  • Removable memory would be a nice improvement. One of the things I wish my Palm had. (though I'm a bit sceptical about Memory Stick)
    First on my list, however, is a better development tool. Codewarrior,... feels like mac development ten years ago.
    Second would be an easy "switch to previous application/view" button. Alt-tab is one of the key sequences I use most on windoze. (more than crtl-alt-del)
  • I agree, but at the same time, I think handspring's decision to use their "springboard" format was rather silly. The TRGPro [trgpro.com] does the smae kind of thing, but with a CF slot - which is much more of an industry standard than the springboard slot. I seem to recall reading somewhere that springboard is actually the same interface as a current format (someone want to help me out here?), but the moduels still have to be specially shaped for the springboard slot.
    Anyway, I think Sony put the memory stick on the Clie because a) they can, and b) they need something to set it apart even more from existing handhelds. Otherwise it's just YAPDIANC (yet another palm device in a nifty case).
    -J
  • I've often had a device run out of batteries in a place where I didn't have a chance to recharge the device for several hours or days, leaving me in trouble.
    On top of that, li-ion batteries will die completely after a few years (2-3 maybe) after which your device is totally useless.
    My PalmV has never run flat, even up to a few weeks away from the charger, not that it often needs to be away from the charger, which has a switchable socket types (mine - UK & Europe). You and it only needs to be charged for a few hours a day to keep it full under heavy use. You got time to sleep? Then you've got time to charge!

    As for them conking out after a few years, I don't know if thats true, but if it is then all the better. My PalmV came with a 5 year all inclusive garranttee (which I've already used once when a button broke while I was developing a game) so I'll get a new one!

    Thad

  • Sony's memory stick technology sucks! It's one of those proprietary technologies that Sony is pushing to get people sucked into one vendor. I don't know why you think this is cool. It's pretty much the same as 'minidisk'. Enuf said.

    First of all, Minidisc kicks butt. It's reliable, fairly low power, and has good sound quality. It also has an almost ideal form factor. Too bad it's rotary media.

    Second of all, memory stick is basically compact flash in a different package, though now that they're talking about using it for expansion, I guess that's not strictly true.

    The biggest problem with memory sticks is the price, but that's down to about $2/megabyte, which is about what flash memory goes for these days (on the open market, not MSRP.) The 128 and 256mb sticks are still ungodly expensive, however.

  • You mean like this [minidisc.org]?

    Damn, I'd pay perhaps as much as $1k for one of those in color. I'm sure it would have to be a bit bigger than that. It would have to have support for reading a FAT32 filesystem as well, and when you plugged it into your PC it would have to come up as a removable storage device, like their new cameras.

    In fact, yes, I'd definitely shell out a G for all of that functionality.

    Are you listening, Sony?

  • "Sony has big plans for the Clie as one of the four gateways to the networked home,..."
    The four gateways are the PC, the PlayStation2 game console, the television and Clie, which is expected to eventually feature wireless Internet access.

    It is great to see that Sony has a vision to put the Clie into the mix of all their other products and bring about a unified solution for consumers. Shows that Sony has great initiative for the Clie product and its place in the networked home. As opposed to Palm, which focuses primarily on the PDAs themself, Sony is looking at the big picture. It always seems to be Sony that brings about a revolution in electronics, be it the Walkman, or the DVD. Can't wait to see this product take off.

    Even the samurai
    have teddy bears,
    and even the teddy bears

  • Sony has the "vision" to try and put one of their pieces of hardware in front of every data source you have -- TV, Internet, phone, etc. They don't have a great history of supporting open standards (see Beta, MiniDisc, Memory Stick, etc.), and I personally don't necessarily want to simply hand the keys to all my data and connectivity over to their benevolent hands.

    Sony has repeatedly come up with decent compact storage formats. They also often build integrated compression and encryption in at the hardware interface level for that format. So long as all you use is Sony (or Sony-licensed) hardware, you're all set. However, if you want to migrate away from that platform...you're screwed. Under the DMCA, accessing your data that's been compressed and encrypted in a Sony-owned format with anything other than an authorized Sony product is reverse engineering, and you can be arrested.

  • The reason for the high cost of the data discs, and Sony's reluctance to develop anything other than the audio format, is licensing fees. Right now, they own the rights to the compression scheme used on MDs, and anyone who wants to market a compatible recorder, player, or disc has to pay them for the privelage. If Sony were to start pushing MD-Data, they could lose that revenue per unit, since people would simply be putting whatever data they chose onto the discs.
  • ...Codewarrior... feels like mac development ten years ago...

    Palm OS...feels like Mac OS ten years ago...

    Seriously, though, how elaborate a development environment do you need for a device with the size and complexity of a Palm? You can use Codewarrior or gcc for full-blown app coding, or you can use Jump, LispMe, or any number of other almost-there-environments for RAD and prototyping.

  • I've seen it and I'm unimpressed. It's no more revolutionary than the M100 Palm is touting around. I'd rather have a VII with wireless capabilities than a Palm with more memory (I've never filled up the 2MB on my Palm IIIe).
  • Simple: buy this thing with a memory stick and store your MP3's downloaded with Napster on it.
    Voilà, beating them with their own technology ;-)
  • considering the possibilities of springboard modules soon (tm) to be available for the visors useing a different technology for expansion seems silly to me. here goes sony on another whirl wind tour of memory lane. (beta, MD, etc.)
  • Unfortunatly, you won't be able to run apps directly off the memory stick. There is however, an easy to use memory management tool to move data around. Too bad they don't auto load the apps like Handspring.

    Nate

  • Re:Sony = Magic Gate = SDMI = Loss of Freedom (Score:3)

    by xlcus ( 224602 ) on Thursday August 31, 2000 @03:50AM (#814529) Homepage
    Compact Flash (CF) and SmartMedia. I wish I knew who contolled these formats

    You might want to take a look at the CompactFlash Association [compactflash.org].

    They're a non-profit, mutual-benefit corporation that promotes adoption of CompactFlash as a worldwide, ultra-small, removable storage and I/O standard.

    --
    Jonathan Hunt

  • cool! (Score:4)

    by macpeep ( 36699 ) on Thursday August 31, 2000 @03:15AM (#814530)
    It looks cool but why-oh-why do they have to put li-ion batteries in them instead of AAA?? I chose the IIIx model over Vx because I wanted replacable batteries.

    I travel a lot and I've often had a device run out of batteries in a place where I didn't have a chance to recharge the device for several hours or days, leaving me in trouble. With normal batteries, you can just put in another set and keep going. Of course it's not good for stuff like digital video cameras that would suck a set of 4 AA's empty in 2 minutes, but for Palm's, normal batteries rule. I get 5-6 weeks on a set of 2 AAA's in my IIIx, and I use IR a lot to connect to the net through my cellphone.

    On top of that, li-ion batteries will die completely after a few years (2-3 maybe) after which your device is totally useless.

  • No Mac or Linux support (Score:4)

    by Sandor at the Zoo ( 98013 ) on Thursday August 31, 2000 @03:24AM (#814531)
    Truly lame, IMHO.

    From the FAQ at the Sony site [sony.com]:

    Q: What operating system does the Sony CLIE Handheld support?
    A: The CLIE Handheld supports Windows® 98, 98 SE, and Windows 2000 Professional

    Q: Does the CLIE Handheld support the Mac® OS?
    A: Sorry, at this time the CLIE Handheld does not support the Mac OS.

    Q: Does the CLIE Handheld support Windows 95, Windows NT®, Linux® or Unix®?
    A: Sorry, at this time the CLIE Handheld does not support these operating systems.

  • Damn! (Score:4)

    by guran ( 98325 ) on Thursday August 31, 2000 @03:05AM (#814532)
    And I wanted to boycot [slashdot.org] Sony for their napster-cluelessness, but at the same time support Palm over Pocket PC.

    Life is not easy for a PC geek...

  • Sony = Magic Gate = SDMI = Loss of Freedom (Score:5)

    by Saurentine ( 9540 ) on Thursday August 31, 2000 @03:14AM (#814533) Journal
    Before we all rush out to buy this admittedly very cool interpretation of a PalmOS device, keep in mind that the Clie uses a Sony Memory Stick for the expansion. Although Sony Memory Sticks available in both "normal" and "Magic Gate" versions now, I can forsee a future where the "normal" version just isn't available. Sony controls the format completely, and can dictate what the supply will be.

    What a "Magic Gate", you ask? SDMI compliant memory chips for digital content management. That's right, if you use Sony's products you put them in control over your fair use rights. Maybe not today, but certainly within the foreseeable future.

    This is why EVERYONE should be telling EVERYONE they know to use ONLY industry standard, open memory formats such as Compact Flash (CF) and SmartMedia. I wish I knew who contolled these formats, and to what degree they can influence the market, but I don't. But what I do know is that there are many manufacturers of both CF and SmartMedia, so I don't forsee an SDMI takeover on that front.

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