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Handhelds Hardware

Royal daVinci Linux Project 46

Posted by CmdrTaco from the is-this-thing-real? dept.
jsinnema writes: "According to Andy Surber (CompanionLink) at PDA Buzz Royal, Royal is trying to put as much into the Linux powered Royal daVinci as possible and still reach the target price range of $199-249. As memory prices change on a regular basis, so does the final specs. As it sits now, they are heading towards a product with 16 ROM and 32RAM (subject to change). The device should also have a compact flash slot, which could also provide additional memory. The product will be based on the Tosiba MIPS processor." Looks very vaporous right now, but if its real, it looks sweet. Kurt the Pope just got WinCE based HP Jornada 548, and now I'm super impressed with PDAs again (although it is only 12-bit color and was until recently advertised as 16). Between this DaVinci or maybe the Yopy, hopefully we'll have a Linux PDA soon too.
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Royal daVinci Linux Project

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  • are the moderators on crack today?

    plus shouldn't you say could fit up a sparrows ass or something simular to imply that their knowlege is small.

    john
  • Somehow I believe that it was not too customary to swear at those times, although I may be wrong, but it seems to me that being courteous to one another has lost its meaning since the duels were forbidden and that is why there are so many lawyers in this century.
  • Probably - "What's a PDA? Who is G N U Linux?"

    Although I expect he'd ask in Italian.

    My Webcam [michaelcreasy.com]
  • It's not like the device is actually going to boot up with a prompt that you type commands into. It runs Linux, but all you see is the gui layer on top of it. Basically, it's WinCE that doesn't crassh as much but is still somewhat bloated. Stick with Palm.


    Sheepdot: Open Source good, Closed Source baaaaaaad!

  • Go easy on the crack pipe, man. Targa is a 24 or 32 bit format. There may have been a 15 bit version in the distant past, but there was never a 12 bit version. And, the average human eye's color discrimination is actually a little better than 24 bit.

  • Um...who the fuck cares other than you and two other anal-retentives?
  • Don't forget all the guys working very hard at LinuxCE [linuxce.org] who have Linux booting on a number of diffrent platforms. There's even microwindows and nanogui. It *is* possible to have your MIPS and SH3 devices running Linux but... they need more help right now porting over userland apps. If you have a device and are looking to contribute to an Open Source project this is the one...

    Plus I've gotta plug my little thing for connecting Linux and CE..
  • This got moderated *up*?

    Too much meth?
  • no, PalmOS=32bit, at least according to the people [palm.com] who make them.
  • PalmOS = 16 bit

    PalmOS is definitly a 32bit OS. Or 31 if you want to compain about stealing the low bit of pointers for "locked vs. unlocked".

    The DragonBall CPU has a 16bit data bus (I think), and only 24 address pins (plus, um four chip selects I think). It does have a full 32bit ALU. And as far as the OS API cares it's pretty much all 32bits.

    That said, it's not a OS I'm fond of programming in. There is no memory protection, and nothing but memory. If my program uses a wild pointer I can damage the data of another application (like, say the apointment scheduler, or address book).

  • You have more of a problem with the software displaying the images than the number of colours on the screen. Proper software would have intelligently dithered the pictures, so they would have looked great on all of the devices (just a little smoother on the 16-bit screen).

    Microsoft are crap at writing dithering routines - Windows 9x has the same problem displaying 24-bit pictures on a 15 bit desktop. After using some software to reduce the colours to 15-bit with good floyd steinberg dithering it looked great. Better then the standard MicroSoft "nearest colour" approach, definitely.

  • Btw, what's up with the 12bit color? I know a lot of the old color game systems used that as well, ie Sega Game Gear and

    I'm not sure about Atari Lynx, but Game Gear is a portable Sega Mastur System, which had 16 colors out of 64 (2.2.2). Game Boy Color from Nintendo has 52 displayable colors out of 32,768 (5.5.5).

  • Communication infrastructures are the very core of society and civilization.

    For example, can you imagine paying for following the traffic signals and use of specific colors for the direction indicators? The file formats are no different from these. If I have to communicate with others, especially when it is public communication (i.e. not one-to-one), the public have to agree to follow some standards. And government has every right to impose such standards. Of course, it has to be XML based standard, clearly separating the style and content issues.

    I am trying to understand what aspect of capitalism allows monopolies over public standards. I am also trying to undestand why this
    was not an issue in the antitrust case against Microsoft.

    Any comments?

  • He's prasing hardware...
    And Still Linux dreamming...

    I like Linux for my desktop but I'm not to fond of the idea of Linux (Or Windows) for a PDA OS.

    I'd like to see a PDA running Geos.. like the old Zoomers... Such a device could be built rather cheaply.
    Geoworks dosn't need anywhere near as much ram as Linux or Windows CE and dosn't even need the system resorces.
    Geoworks pulls off multitasking on simple single task hardware...
    Simple low end processor like a 16C816 or a Z280...
    Sadly Geoworks 3.0 is locked into the Intel line... Thats going away from the platform indupendence that 2.0 was aimming for...
    So a port may be out of the question...
    But thats the kind of operating system I'd like to see on a PDA...
    Not WinCE and not Linux....
  • There really isn't any point in insulting people like that.
    if you have something REAL to say.. say it...
    If not.... POST ON MeowBBS I need the fsking traffic :)
    hehe sorry

    Anyway... don't do that.. it's not worth it
  • Probably - "What's a PDA? Who is G N U Linux?" Although I expect he'd ask in Italian. Like this? Che cosa è un PDA? Chi è G N U Linux? andy j.
  • > I know that I, and most /.'ers would *love* a Linux PDA, but let's think if it's really necessary.

    For a good high quality PDA? No...
    I'd much prefer an operating system better suted to a PDA.
    Linux is a high end operating system..
    With the power of todays desktops and servers Linux works nicely but PDAs are tiny devices and to be reasonable in price they shouldn't use an operating system as demanding as Linux.

    Palm Os and Geoworks come to mind when I think of PDAs.
    Linux for my desktop and server...
    But for PDAs and computer imbeded in toaster... I'd like something simpler and more conformming to the job....

    Is it really nessisary?
    Yes.... But hopefully Linux and Windows PDAs will give way to Palm and/or Geoworks
  • Personally, I want an organizer/email client/web browser/word processor/spreadsheet/MP3 player/cell phone/portable TV.

    Right. Plenty of people want these things. It should be obvious that many people want an MP3 player and a cell phone because many people already own those things. So why do I have to squeeze ten objects into my pocket?

    Personal organizers aren't like desktop computers where you can continually add more and more stuff. Even with wireless technologies like Bluetooth, whatever you're carrying needs to fit into a small physcial volume.

  • Re:Sometimes I just wonder... (Score:3)

    by WhyCause ( 179039 ) on Saturday May 20, 2000 @09:52PM (#1059293)
    I don't know anything about EPOC it may be as bad, but what I know about PalmOS makes me amazed at how stable the apps under it are. And it makes me lery of wanting to try to write my own!

    EPOC (as far as all the press goes) is a fully moderm, 32-bit pre-emptive multitasking, multi-threaded OS. The OS is based around a tightly coded kernel, with a window manager (EIKON in the case of my Series 5) designed to run on top of it. The way I understand it, the window manager is easily changed (more on this later), but no manager other than EIKON is currently available. The OS has inherent memory protection, and I believe all of its predecessors did as well (16-bit Psion OS's). The result is a platform that is as stable as, if not more so, than Linux. I've heard tales of individuals not restarting their Psions for a number of years, and months is very common. Even with using a large amount of home-grown software (my own included), I have never had to hit the reset button to stop a rouge app. In fact, using the built in OPL interpreter, programming on my Series 5 is easy, and I have access to almost all of the system functions through API calls. There are very few things (multi-page dialogs for one) that aren't readily available to the home programmer. The only real problem I've seen with EPOC is that if an app dies horribly enough, there may be a slight memory leak. (can you tell I'm an EPOC advocate?)

    As to the description of the OS, this reminds me a good bit as to the setup used in Linux. A tight kernel (that can have support for unecessary items left out at compile time), with a windowing system on top. I think that using Linix on a handheld device can be a Very Good Thing (TM), if done properly. The trick with using any handheld is that your apps come up quickly, and you don't have to fool around with the OS much unless you really need to. The problem therefore becomes a pure UI design issue. This has been discussed elsewhere on this page, so I will rant no longer.

    You can check out more about the EPOC OS at: http://www.symbian.com [symbian.com]
  • I want a Linux PDA running Apache that I can leave hooked up to a full time internet connection as a simple web server. Whenever I leave my 386 on for that purpose, my wife shuts it off because it makes too much noise (fan) and eats too much power (230watts).


    ...................

    ... paka chubaka

  • The Game Gear had a smaller screen and an expanded colour palette. If memory serves correct, it actually displayed 8 bits of colour (256) out of a number that I have forgotten. 12-bit?

    - Ed.
  • What CmdrTaco didn't mention is that the original Royal daVinci PDA came out a couple of years ago. They provided almost no customer support, missed their release data for the software developer's kit by several months, and have ignored hundreds of e-mails about people not being able to sync their daVincis to desktop computers.

    Then they got sued by Palm for steal parts of the PalmOS. They decided to redesign the machine and its operating system. They moved from a Motorola 68EZ328 CPU to a 12MHz Sharp CPU - unfortunately, I haven't had a chance to play with the "revised" (actually totally redesigned) model. The original was similar to the PalmPilot in functions, but with fewer options.

    About a month back, I dropped my daVinci and the screen died. (I might be able to fix it, but haven't had time yet.) Due to Royal's history, I'm going to either wait until the new daVinci is an established product with good support from the user base or just a Palm instead.

    -Ender
  • Am I going to have to write in my user name and password with Graffiti each time I want to use my Linux PDA? I can't imagine using the CLI with Graffiti to be very fun.

    • ...a product with 16 ROM and 32RAM (subject to change). The device should also have a compact flash slot, which could also provide additional memory.

    Well, with 32 bytes of RAM they will definetely need additional memory!


  • People want an organizer, not a mp3 player/cell phone/pager/web browser/camera/portable campfire.
    Speak for yourself. Personally, I want an organizer/email client/web browser/word processor/spreadsheet/MP3 player/cell phone/portable TV. My WinCE machine handles the first five pretty well, and makes a decent effort at the sixth (CF cards still aren't quite big enough.) I'm sure there are at least a few other people out there with a similar list. (And even if you don't want all that, there's very little reason not to get it, other than anti-Microsoft zeal.) Isn't there room for diversity in the market?

    Not quite completely off-topic: Why isn't there a CF TV tuner card for my PDA? Is there some technical limitation I don't know about? It doesn't seem that difficult.

  • Re:Where... (Score:3)

    by YU Nicks NE Way ( 129084 ) on Saturday May 20, 2000 @10:24AM (#1059300)
    The "linux-base PDAs" don't even qualify as vaporware: they are vacuumware. To my mind, a workable Yopy or equivalent is at least three to five years away. The nature of the OS kernel won't help much one way or another, although using an OS designed for a small device makes life easier. The truth is, creating a PDA is much harder than anyone imagines until they get into it.

    The key thing to understand is that, despite how it's sold, a PDA is a consumer device, not a business device. So you get into all of the oddities of trying to second guess the real consumer marketplace. The user is making a <shudder> style statement. The device must be more like a toaster than a computer. It has to turn on instantly: when the user punches the on button, the screen must show up within 500 msec. You have to worry about cultural conventions -- Americans like design x, Europeans like design y...

    The applications on the device don't have to be "simple", but they have to be convenient and "intuitive". UI design counts a lot -- if your UI doesn't "make sense", consumers won't spend $500 to carry around in the palm of their hands. If you support a feature, it has to "just work". Configuration has to be driven by the program itself asking questions. Don't even think about "text-based, editable config files." They won't work.

    Can it be done? Of course. But it won't happen anytime soon. It takes the kind of monolithic maniacal management that commercial firms do well...and OSS does poorly. That means spending big big money, and I can't see anybody getting funding to do it adequately. The market is already defined, and without the kind of money the MS can throw at it, you're not going to break in.

  • There is a small program called "Dissociated Press." It is written in Elisp and comes with GNU Emacs. It produces very comical text by rearranging the words of the text, but it does it in a slightly more intelligent fashion (a bit like a Markov chain) than what this engine is probably doing.

    bash-2.03$ info emacs disso

  • As evidenced by the success of the JAILBAIT distro, [sourceforge.net] I believe that 16MB ROM and 32MB RAM is "the right amount" of space for a PDA / embedded Linux system. With advancements in kernel technologies such as CramFS, expect to see things such as Netscape 4.7, an mp3 player, and full version of XFree in 16 megabytes. Expect it in JAILBAIT 6....
  • PalmOS = 16 bit
    Epoc = 32 bit

    'nuff said :)

  • I always hope some people here would give credit where it's due. Here, someone is. Just because it's from Micro$oft doesn't mean it musr be c**p. It just happens a lot!
    I have received a Jordana430 from my work. It is small, battery life useable and has enough space inside for the Geeks in Space .MP3 if they don't grow too much more.
    It has never crashed on me. It does all I expect it to and is expandable.
    I just want to connect it to Linux!

  • Actually, there is crude memory protection. Only one application is running at a time, so you cannot interfere with another application's working memory. To write to a storage heap (database) you have to use the DmWrite function, which temporarily disables this protection when writing. I don't know quite how this works, but I guess that it relies on an external chip with a control register or which checks whether the CPU is in supervisor state. (The 68000 family and presumably the Dragonball indicate this for each bus cycle.)
  • Here's a link that I found comparing Pocket PCs' 8-bit color vs. 12-bit color vs. 16-bit color when I was shopping for a Pocket PC:

    http://www.dnai.com/~rickj/12bit/co lordepth.htm [dnai.com]

  • Whoa... what if someone made a Beowulf cluster of these? Just imagine geeks walking around with a dozen of these things strapped to their bodies.

    ...Or would it be better to assign one node per person, and then strap the geeks together?
  • hopefully we'll have a Linux PDA soon too.
    What do you mean, soon? Linux has been running on the Casio E-100 and E-105 for quite a while.
    • Linux VR [sourceforge.net] includes support for Vadem Clio, Casio, and more.
    • Linux MIPS Pages [ltc.com] includes info on the Casio E-10 and E-100, Compaq Aero, Everex Freestyle, and Vadem Clio

  • Re:Sometimes I just wonder... (Score:3)

    by stripes ( 3681 ) on Saturday May 20, 2000 @03:48PM (#1059309) Homepage Journal
    [crude memory protection]
    I don't know quite how this works, but I guess that it relies on an external chip with a control register or which checks whether the CPU is in supervisor state. (The 68000 family and presumably the Dragonball indicate this for each bus cycle.)

    It sets the low bit of the closed "database" so it is an invalid word/dword pointer. If you do any of the Db calls on it you get a bus error, but only because the pointer is mis-alighed. If you do a Db call on it and some other app has it open (or left it open) it goes through.

    If you stored a pointer in a variable too long and then use it, the write goes through.

    If you store a pointer, and then overwrote part of it, the write will go through.

    I don't know if the DragonBall indicates user vs. supervisor state, but the memory "contoler" (chip select control, and RAS/CAS strober) is all built in. So unlike a 68000 system where you need to put a PAL (or descrete logic) in anyway to do all that crud, and can slip in a very simple memry protection unit (like the Amiga WCS, or the ST's "system area"), the DragonBall does not let you ride that stuff in for free. Not because it makes anything more expensave, but because it makes not doing so free, and $10 vs. $9.75 is easy to pay, but $10 vs. $0 isn't so easy to justify.

    Only one application is running at a time

    Except if you do a Find. Or a few other similar things (but you don't get the "globals register" set, so you have to run in-stack only, and many OS calls are unavailable. There are also shared libraries, I'm not totally clear on how they work in PalmOS (didn't read that chapter yet), but they implment TCP/IP (and UDP, PPP, and ICMP) in a shard lib, so it has to have some sort of premption ability. The IR stuff is also a shared lib.

    I don't know anything about EPOC it may be as bad, but what I know about PalmOS makes me amazed at how stable the apps under it are. And it makes me lery of wanting to try to write my own!

    On the other hand, if I could bear to lug around the YOPY I would be all over writing apps for it. But man, oh man, cell phone, GPS, and a big-ass PDA is a lot to carry. Even the Visor (Pilot sized PalmOS Pilot clone) is clunky.

  • Here, here. I've had one for going on a year now, and let me tell you - it's like they don't want anyone writing software for the bloody thing. I've email until my fingers got sore looking for some excuse as to why the SDK was no where to be found. I finally got two lines a month and a half later - boiling down to: "It isn't available but it will be soon." I found it archived somewhere else. When I first started reading about Linux PDA's from Royal I got excited - until I got a DaVinci of my own and tried to develop for the darned thing.

    One other note from the user community - the lid falls off. I've seen it happen twice. Two tiny pieces of plastic hold it on - for a while.



  • Ah, but does it run Mame? (http://x.mame.net) Mame runs on Windows CE now too, apparently.
  • Where are all the other PDAs that promised Linux, and how vapo(u)rous are they? (The Yopy, etc.)
  • Hi a while ago, I'm sure i remember seeing a link for a version of Linux for the Palm. Anyone got the link? I seem to have lost it.
  • Several file formats use 12-bit color, including the TGA (targa) picture format. It's been known to produce some good pictures. Yeah, it's a lower color resolution, but do we really need 24-bit color when we can't see all of the spectrum anyway?

    Give me 15-bit color anyday. That's what my artwork is done in.



    ---
    Another non-functioning site was "uncertainty.microsoft.com." The purpose of that site was not known. -- MSNBC 10-26-1999 on MS crack

  • Sometimes I just wonder... (Score:4)

    by fraserspeirs ( 113052 ) on Saturday May 20, 2000 @09:23AM (#1059315) Homepage

    ....why?

    I know that I, and most /.'ers would *love* a Linux PDA, but let's think if it's really necessary. Why shoehorn Linux in everywhere we can find an IC? I think that better efforts could be put into improving the connectivity between desktop linux and PDAs.

    I don't know where it's all heading, but this whole "world domination" thing feels a little wierd to me. Is Linux really the answer to *every* question?

    World Domination is either achieved by force (Microsoft, or Castro) or by simply being better (e.g. capitalism, in it's original form). Let's be better with Linux. I'm not saying don't put it on a PDA, but let's think first.

    We really, really need to make Linux into something more than just a more stable and free version of Windows.

  • What we really need is an OS for a small device that was written specifically for this, not an OS that is just a cut down version of something else. Right now PalmOS and EPOC32 seem to be the only OS that fill this role.

    I'm no expect in handheld devices OS but people tell me that PalmOS does have some problems, although I don't know what.

    The modern PDA market is still very young IMO, and I still think that now is not yet the time to buy. Once we have a global wireless network with an always on capability and a decent bandwith, coupled with small easy to use devices with a long battery life, then will be the time to buy.

    Right now I am prepared to wait.

    My Webcam [michaelcreasy.com]
  • I think the reason that the Palm platform is the prefered PDA is because of its simplicity. People want an organizer, not a mp3 player/cell phone/pager/web browser/camera/portable campfire. If Royal can provide a simplistic but programmable PDA to the Linux community, they may be a huge success, however, if they decide to take things too far at the expense of battery life and usability, then it will be headed for the trash. There's no reason that something can't be both simple and expandable, but the companies assume that everyone wants these features just because the MS Pocket PC has them. The Pocket PC might be cool to impress your friends playing a 2 minute MPEG video that uses all your flash rom, but is there a real use for such features, I don't think so.

  • If only Leonardo DaVinci knew that his name would be used for a GNU/Linux based PDA, I wonder what would he have said?

  • Slashdot, praising a WinCE device? <Zipping over to http://netcraft.co.uk/whats to make sure that Slashdot isn't running off of IIS 5.0> :)

    As for the 12-bit color thing, I think HP's been noting this for a while now. I've heard from others that the graphics look just fine regardless, although the one time I checked out one of the new HPs, I forgot to check out an image file to see for myself, so this isn't coming from experience.

    I liked everything about the HPs (I didn't even mind the flat stylus -- well, the feel anyway -- it was an annoyance getting it out and putting it back in the holder), but I was pretty disappointed that their new PocketPCs didn't adopt anything like Casio's great cursor controller. So, looks like I'll hold off on those and wait for my Cassiopeia upgrade to an E-115 PocketPC in June.

    Cheers,
    ZicoKnows@hotmail.com

  • The linux ports page has moved, and alas the redirect is gone too, but thanks to the power of GoogleCache, I found it again [greenspun.com]. Another useful resource there is probably the DMOZ/GoogleDir page of Linux ports, which is here [greenspun.com].

    My snap reaction was "I wonder if they're gonna make the same silly mistake on opening up the software development stuff quickly that they seemed to have made the first time... then I realized: we won't care. :-) They can't even hide the hardware without breaking GPL on the driver files...

    One other useful link in this context is probably the NanoGUI project: X (or WinGDI) in <250KB [greenspun.com]? (originally spotted via Hac k The Planet [greenspun.com].)

    I can't wait...

    Cheers,
    -- jra
    -----

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