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Handhelds Hardware

Hands-On Review of PocketPC 129

Posted by CmdrTaco from the when-small-is-good dept.
GrouchoMarx writes: "I was lucky enough to be at Comdex in Chicago the day Microsoft released the new PocketPC, aka WinCE 3.0. I spent about an hour playing with the new HP Jornada and Casio Cassiopeia. It's an improvement, but not a Palm killer by any means . " Good review if you're into small machines.
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Hands-On Review of PocketPC More

Hands-On Review of PocketPC

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  • More Uninformed Garbage (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I would be suprised if the guy who wrote this review did more than look at the devices and push the buttoms. This review is so filled with factual innacuracies and unsupported criticism I can't belive I wasted my time reading it. The author criticises the CE devices not having any buttons on the screen, but then includes the Palm's silkscreen area as part of the screen. WTF. The fact that the text entry area can be hidden is a PLUS. At the most you will be entering data half of the time, and it is trivial to call up the keyboard or JOT. CE can be configured that when you tap on an area to enter text the Jot window open automatically, and then dissapears to give you back the space that Palm wastes. The author also claims that Graffiti is superior to JOT for several reasons, on being that it has seperate areas for capital, lower case and numbers. This actually means that I can write in my normar handwritting, and easily capitalize letters simply by writting in adifferent area. JOT is also a more natural language since it recongnizes the letters as most people write them on paper. (you can even pick up the stylus between strokes) The author complained about the backspace and return buttons on CE, but failed to realize that these can be hidden, and there are strokes for backspace, return, cut, copy, paste, and delete. Additionally, characters such as @ + & can be written right in the jot area, and with one extra stroke (|) any symbol can be written. There is a lot of personal preference involved in the CE vs. Palm decision, and there are pros and cons on both sides, but without really using one of these devices you are just speculating.
  • er, I'm a Palm fan too, but since when is it MS's responsibility (or ability) to support other operating systems? That makes no sense - Don't you mean Linux has to support the WinCE device?

    Anyway, my personal take is that Palm is still victorious because MS is missing the point of the PDA. Bells and whistles don't make a superior product. Appliance-like simplicity is king.

  • Not the best review (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Unfortunately, despite the claims at the top, this review is far from objective. Rather than trying to give the devices the benefit of the doubt the author makes a thinly veiled effort to re-substantiate age-old Palm rhetoric on the new devices.

    Conspicuously absent is a review of the Compaq iPaq [compaq.com] that could do the most damage to Palm. Its lighter than all the Palm devices except the V, has longer rechargable battery life, and two USB ports - this in addition to all the advantages that CE 2.11 devices had.

    I really loved parts in the review like "if we ignore these buttons over here and these buttons over here Palms have more buttons" and "if we ignore that the Palm has a part of the screen that can't be changed they're pretty much the same size despite the Palm's being low res and smudgy." I guess if you close your eyes to all the good stuff on PocketPC's, Palms do look lovely.
  • Yes. To the general population, rebooting has become a "natural" process for using a computer. It cleans out the memory and stuff. It's sad, but not uncommon for people to just spontaneously reboot their PC at work prior to going on a smoke/coffee/lunch break. They know that if they don't, it is bound to crap out a couple times a day. One software company has convinced the populous that they are innovative and the source of inspiration, while at the same time teaching them that PCs are horribly fallible.
  • I'm all for the sports cars. My current cars are a Chrysler LHS for day to day driving and a Carrera 4 when I want to burn fuel needlessly in the pursuit of fast turning, quickly accelerating pleasure.

    For a PDA though, I own a Palm Vx. Why on earth should my PDA play mp3s? It only holds 16 or 32 megs total anyway, and the sound quality is something slightly worse than the stereo in the POS Mercury Grand Marquis I drove in high school.

    I know lots of people with Palms and lots of people with Wince devices. The people with Palms never seem upset that they can't play mp3s and the only time I've ever seen a Wince device used to play an mp3 was one of my friends who had a humorous little mp3 he played for me while we were waiting to get admitted to the Bowery. While it was funny, I don't think that mp3 was worth carrying extra size/weight or paying more money than I did for my Palm.
    ----------------------------
  • Here're the relevant links for that post:

    Alex Bischoff
    ---

  • A whole bunch of the Newton engineers went to work for Palm, which was one of the real indications that Newton was history. It was pretty obvious months before the announcement.

    So, with much of the Newton team working on Palm, I suspect a lot of "Newton ideas" have been finding their way into the Palm design.
  • > He's got a little belt holder to stick it in.z

    well, with no sliderule, I suppose he has to hang *something* from his belt. :)
  • It's not people that are saing these devices are a replacement to the Palm (x).. It's MS Marketing that's saing that. Obviously MS want's to position WinCE as a competitor to the PalmOS. It seems to me like these PocketPC are more of a competition to super thin laptops (Which also run WinCE BTW) then Palms.

    When I was looking for an electronic organizer, I was looking at size, ease of use and utility. The palm fits those requirements to the tee. The PocketPC devices are feature bloated, expensive and to still too big to carry around in your pocket comfortably. That and the lack of linux sync/backup software is really a bummer.

  • This is all fine and good, but what sort of PDAs will the protesters be bringing to Washington?

    Probably you would be best to wait for a DCMA story to post this comment. There is at least one such story per day on /..

    --

  • Good luck. I think you'll like the SE/30. It's an exceptionally good machine - very powerful, and quite expandable given the case. It's my favorite Mac in a lot of ways.

    (The IIx and IIcx both had 68030 chips - that's what the 'x' stood for. For some reason, Apple decided not to name it the SEx. Can't imagine why, I bet it would have sold better. ;)
  • Datebk3 (or Datebook+ on the Visor, which is a stripped-down Datebk3) allows you to include items from your ToDo list in your datebook automagically.

    http://www.gorilla-haven.org/pimlico/datebk3.htm

    As far as the ToDo list not deleting items that are done, have you tried turning on the option to clear completed items? It still doesn't delete them, you have to purge completed to get rid of them, but it at least keeps them off the screen so it doesn't get too cluttered.
  • I believe that Palm is actually being sued for patent infringement relating to Grafitti. I forgot who was actually doing the suing, but if my memory's correct, Microsoft will probably wait on the sidelines until it's settled one way or the other and then release a grafitti workalike once the dust has settled. They wouldn't want to knowingly step into another legal crossfire when they've got so many other issues to contend with at this time.
  • I'd wager that 90%+ of Palm and WinCE device owners user their devices to connect with Windows desktops... Like the MS Office argument, unless they're broken up (note that this is not an endorsement of that idea...) Microsoft really has no incentive to create software that adds value and credibility to Linux. That holds true for MS Office, Visual development tools, and Windows CE devices... The moment that Microsoft comes forward and starts developing tools that make Linux more attractive on the desktop is the day that they admit that they're not king of the desktops anymore.

    Think about it. Hand held computers are widely expected to have a much larger growth curve than desktops in the future. But most of them will be synchronized with desktops. Meaning that somewhere along the line, if one buys a handheld, Microsoft will almost assuredly get their $50/desktop as well. Why should they want to risk abandoning that just to be able to go after the other 10% of desktop users who might also use PDA's?
  • However, Slashdot posted about the OTHER protest like maybe 48 hours before it happened. One of the reasons for the extremely low turnout is no one knew - tons of comments were like "I would have gone if I had known earlier..".. which is why I went offtopic and posted it in the first thread I saw this morning instead of waiting for the next DMCA story, whenever that would be.

    So.. :\ You would think Slashdot would post this one, and post it as early as possible, to get the word out and allow people to make arrangements to get down to DC.

    C'est la vie.

  • The thing that's confusing me is: who is MS trying to convince? Will the business users really be swayed by the fact that PocketPC can play music and video? Will the MP3-downloaders really get one of these to carry their tunes? Usually MS identifies their market and goes all out after that most important group (e.g. the current ad campaign about the reliability of Windows2000).

    ======
    Webmasters: get a Free Palm Pilot [jackpot.com] for referring 25 signups (Web-based games).

    ========

  • DOS -> Windows (which you mention)
    Windows -> Windows95
    Windows95 -> ActiveDesktop (on '95 or '98)
    Windows95 -> WindowsNT (largely the same, but that only serves to confuse when they aren't, such as "My Computer")
    WindowsNT -> Windows 2000 (I haven't used it, but the screenshots look pretty different)
    --
  • Of course, when you're worth half a trillion dollars, money shouldn't be an object for licensing Grafitti yourself...

    Assuming whoever holds the patent _wants_ to license it.

    Rick

  • That's a useful piece of information. Thanks.

    But I heard a rumor once (and was never sure if there was any truth to it) that Gilette held a patent for a ceramic razor blade that would put metal blades to shame, but wouldn't license it to anyone because they didn't want to give up selling metal blades. I guess that wouldn't be possible if what you state is true.
  • My only big concern about the new PocketPC devices is that they are still somewhat expensive (about US$500). They should release a backlit monochrome LCD version for around $299--and that will become a viable competitor for Palm devices.


    There is one already. Compaq 1550, the excellent 1530 with an updated ROM with the faster and more complete new OS. It is a very thin and light device.
  • I would say there's been lots of UI shock in what Microsoft has done.

    First they loved MDI, then they moved away from it.

    They started out with double clicks, and shifted to explorer windows using one click to run things.

    They have changed Office who knows how many times, in many ways.

    The interface to Outlook has shifted in many annoying ways over the years.

    They offered up the paperclick to interrupt your computing experience.

    It only seems seemless because everyone has gone through the same UI shock at the same time.

  • Palm is more than willing to license the PalmOS to anyone interested. Strike up a contract, and build your own LapPilot.
  • Visor's Date Book+ lets you put the todos on the calender page. Even lets you select which catagories of todos get included and how many days in advance they show up.

    Don't know how you would do this on a Palm though.
  • Whatever. Nobody uses a CE PPC over a PalmPC unless they're on PCP. Have you seen how big the Start Button looks on those things? It's gigantic. M$: Stupid Design In the Name of Branding.

    Hmm... looks like it's 16x16 pixels on my Jornada 545... and it's actually making semi-useful use of the area that's reserved for the app name on a Palm Pilot.

    Simon
  • try Datebk3, you can seee a mount at a time with it. then look for Phlegm Hack and hot date.

    a palm can be soo help full.


    nmarshall
    #include "standard_disclaimer.h"
    R.U. SIRIUS: THE ONLY POSSIBLE RESPONSE
  • Microsoft is so worried about the windows cash cow that they do everything in their power to make it impractical to use a CE machine without syncing it to a desktop. They distribute drivers and updates as .exes that have to be run from the desktop and encourage other developers to do the same. They've been extremely reluctant to add basic features that'd reduce desktop dependence, including things like printing. (okay, you can print to a PCL printer, but nothing else -- any guesses about who's one of the biggest CE developers?) They include "Pocket PowerPoint", but there's no way to create presentations -- you have to import from the desktop.

    The sad part is that CE's actually a decent product. It's really nice to have a machine with a power-on and power-off time of a second. It crashes, but far less than windows -- although this may be related to the lack of complicated applications. I'd love to have a larger CE machine (like the Jornada 820) as a laptop replacement. Unfortunately, Microsoft realizes that too, so they've cripped CE so that it doesn't compete with their other OSs.

  • I'm sorry but that review was pretty much biased.

    I think the reviewer himself made that pretty clear near the top with his disclaimer:

    First, in the interest of full disclosure, a comment or two about the reviewer. I do not currently use a WinCE device. I used a Palm III from August 1998 until just last week, when I upgraded to a new TRGpro (a PalmPilot clone that looks almost identical to a Palm IIIx, but has PalmOS 3.3, 8 MB RAM, the new Palm screen with reverse backlighting, and a type II CompactFlash slot). I am also the Secretary for the DePaul Linux Users Group at DePaul University, Chicago. There is no love lost between me and Microsoft, and I would be perfectly happy to see the company broken up, but I do acknowledge that, on occasion, Microsoft has done something useful or beneficial.

    If you read the page as a summary of the first, brief impressions a TRGpro user received as he looked at two new PocketPC devices, you'll likely be less disappointed. It's not an exhaustive, objective comparison, and from what the disclaimer says, it's not meant to be.

    The writer prefers the smaller size, longer battery life, and slightly increased speed Palm devices provide. In contrast, you want something "like [your] home PC", and that's the PocketPC platform. I own neither a Palm or Windows CE/PocketPC device, but I am researching my options in preparation for buying one. At the moment, I'm leaning toward a Palm device, but I'm interested to read more of why Windows CE/PocketPC devices are better, if you're willing.

    Thus far I've found the Palm devices more interesting because precisely because they're smaller and lighter. I decided these were my priorities after looking at the notebook computer I use: a Compaq Contura Aero 4/33c. Though dating from early 1995 and boasting only 486SX-33, 20MB of RAM, and a 640x480x16 display, the Aero is small, weighs only 4 lbs., and gives me more than 4 hours of use off one battery. I have no need for sound, don't need more than 16 colors for a Linux console, and certainly don't want to lug more than 4 lbs. around with me. If I had the cash, I might replace my Aero with a late model Libretto to shed some more weight, but it's not worth it right now. Anyway, to me I think I'd be happier with a small, lightweight Palm device than a PocketPC, but I may not be considering everything I should.

    As a side note, am I the only one who keeps typing "Poqet PC [best.com]" instead of "PocketPC"? Maybe not too many others remember the Poqet PCs.

  • ot (Score:1)

    by Ateran ( 44130 )
    Ok, so this is somewhat off-topic, but I've got a major gripe with the Palm.

    There's no way to synchronize datebooks, addressbooks, etc., with another person.

    I can't believe I'm the only one out there who thinks that it would be extremely useful to synchronize schedules with someone else, so that if I need to know where they are, and what they're doing, I can just click a tab and look at their schedule. Am I missing something?
  • That being said why exactly would you want a PC in that small of a package? Sure...give us similar apps and 1/4 the functionality and make it harder to use (because of the size,etc). The reason the Palm has been successful as it has is because it does what most people want a PDA for right out of the box...contacts, todo list, appointments.

    Well Palm doesn't have what I want from a PDA. I really want to have a real computer that can fit in my coat pocket. I don't only need an agenda and todo list, but also something that can run almost any apps I could need in a PC. I'm probably not the only one who wants to surf the web or listen to music on the road.

    I also don't quite get how MP3 is a 'great killer app' for a PDA. Its a cool, whiz-bang thing yes...it is not practical at all with the memory constraints these devices have out of the box

    I think you are not very informed here. It is just a matter of buying a flash memory card and pluging it in. It IS practical ! I use it all the time when in the train. I don't see why I should by a 300% Rio 500 when adding a 150$ 64 MB Compactflash card to my PDA gives me exactly the same functionnalities, and is one less device to carry around. When Walkmans got FM tuner included, did you complain that "there's no need for it, it is better to buy an extra portable tuner ?"

    What MS seems to be forgetting is that it makes no sense to duplicate desktop PC functionality in a handheld format.

    Again you are wrong, it does ! Sure Pocket Word is of little use on a PDA, but Pocket Internet Explorer is great, as is the MP3 player, a gameboy emulator (PalmGB) or Pocket Streets.
  • Well if all you want is the regular agenda/todolist/memo/etc. then a Palm is fine. But if you are a true geek that likes to be able to email instantly the pictures he takes with his digital camera, or find your way around with Pocket Streets, or don't have yet a portable MP3 player, etc... then Pocket PC is the way to go. It is really a PC in a PDA, nothing less. Of course there's no keyboard and the screen is small, but it is still a real computer, not an enhanced organizer. And most Pocket PC are not THAT bigger than a Palm, if you can fit a Palm in your pockets a Pocket PC will go as well.
  • I'm sorry but that review was pretty much biased. The Pocket PC is a POCKET PC (I don't know how to say it more clearly : it is PC that fits in a pocket !). That's why there is a hierarchical file system and all this extra stuff that made the reviewer complain. It is why I like my E105 more than the Palms I tested : it can do a lot more stuff, and work pretty much like my home PC.

    The reviewer assumed all you expect from a PDA is take a few notes and check your appointments - because that's what his Palm experience made him expect. Well, I'm sorry, but there's no reason why PDA should be restricted to this. MP3 for example is a great killer app for a PDA.
  • Does anyone want to attempt to lisence the PalmOS and port it over to a wince machine? That'd be uber-cool.

    The end result would be a more expensive machine whose apps usually only use part of the screen, but it'd be an interesting hack if possible?
    --

  • Or just run a palm emulator in linux so you could run all your native apps... It certainly seems to have the horsepower to emulate a much slower processor.
    --
  • You have to consider that Palm and CE vendors report battery life differently. Palm says 2 weeks for my Vx, but that's at about 30 mins use per day, for a total of 8 hours which is close to a CE device. If I use it a lot it goes down quickly.
  • Casio is laying low until their deal with Siemens to produce a wireless Cassiopeia is finished.

    -
    Ekapshi.

  • OTOH, the WinCE devices were designed to play MP3's, MPEG's, and generally to be impress-the-chicks devices.



    Are chicks really impressed by gizmos? It's a shame they're not because that would make things easier, but evidence shows that sadly, they are not. The stuff that impresses geeks simply does nothing for chicks (implicitly assuming that {chicks} intersect {geeks} is {}).

    I live in chicago and I remember for a while the mass transit system had billboards saying "consider us your second car" with a picture of a big 'ol train in the garage. My first reaction was "man, I'd get all the chicks if I really had a train in my garage", but then I realized that simply wasn't true.

  • I can see why /. wouldn't post this. There would be quite a bit of posts if every lug got announcements regarding their "vital information" or such activities posted on Slashdot.
    If my local lugs were organizing a protest I'd already know about it because I'm already a member. Since I'm not a member of the NY lug the demonstration its self really doesn't concern me. Not that I disagree with the protest or anything.
  • I can see why /. wouldn't post this. There would be quite a bit of posts if every lug got announcements regarding their "vital information" or such activities posted on Slashdot.


    We already get "Quickies" articles with lots of news items, none of which individual merited an article. I don't see anything wrong with something similar containing important activities of various LUGs. It should probably be limited to protests, participation in larger events (appearances at non-Linux-related conventions, etc.), special appearances by open source personalities who have achieved wider fame, etc.
  • sadr's reply to your post makes the most sense. But in case you're still interested, one of the many vapor modules that's supposed to come out for the Handspring visor is a cell phone module. I've seen pictures of prototypes. There's an ear piece for the speaker, and you use the built in microphone on the visor as the mic. Unfortunately I don't have the url off the top of my head, but there is a decent list of modules and status [visorcentral.com] at VisorCentral [visorcentral.com].

    Jason
  • Does anyone want to attempt to lisence the PalmOS and port it over to a wince machine? That'd be uber-cool.

    Well, people are trying to port [linuxce.org] Linux to WinCE. You could probably create a PalmOS like GUI to run on top of the kernel and have yourself a pretty nifty little device.
  • While it would still be neat to carry around a PDA that plays music, browses the web, acts as a universal remote, and does the dishes, more computer users are going to be using dedicated lines like DSL and cablemodem. I would like to see a PDA that works more closely with my computer--something more along the lines of a portable telnet/ssh client or even some type of X11 terminal (or RDP). It should have an ethernet port, IR, modem, or maybe even some type of wireless. This way, you'd be able to access the more powerful apps and larger data storage that live on your computer albiet from a less-than-ideal interface without having to worry about filling up scarce RAM with applications and data that can be accessed from your home or work computer.
  • ... the WinCE devices were designed to play MP3's, MPEG's, and generally to be impress-the-chicks devices.

    I'm not impressed... :)

  • >Actually, the Handspring Visor's expandability is great, but finding one is a bit difficult.

    I ordered my Visor deluxe from Handspring recently and arrived via UPS ground in exactly one week. Last weekend I saw that the local Best Buy has a bunch in stock.

    However, we were supposed to have a bunch of modules by now, but there still is little you can do with a Handspring addon that's not yet attainable with a 3com palm. There's no mp3 player, no wireless internet, IDEO's camera still isn't out, nor is the promised universal remote control (but how many people would buy that, anyway), there's no radio receiver, no clic drive, none of the cool stuff that's been mentioned. You have a decent modem (which you can get for a 3com), memory expansion and backup and Tiger Woods golf. Woo-hoo.

    I don't mean to sound too negative, I really like my Visor deluxe, but it's primarily because the USB cradle syncs real fast, the price was right, and most importantly, it's blue.

  • There's some third-party stuff that does what you describe. One I like is ActionNames from iambic. This DateBook replacement lets you use different formats for day, week, and month (and 3-month) views, lets you put To Do items and appointments for the day on the same page in almost any view, and has an address book enhancement that tabs for organization. Cool stuff: iambic: software for handhelds [iambic.com]

    There is that preference to not show completed To Do items, but it is a pain to occasionally have to purge the list. I'm sure there's a third party program that does that, too...

  • Palm Killer? NOT (Score:2)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I'm still using my original, 128K Palm Pilot. It syncs up with Win95 and Linux, and stores every address I can think of, whips me at chess, and still has memory free. Why would I buy something with color, sound, and Excel and risk losing it, sitting on it, or running it through the wash? If you need to do real work, get a laptop.

  • The difference, of course, is that Microsoft is trying to gain marketshare for their device. As it currently stands Microsoft has been running the Windows CE flag out, at a continual loss, for quite some time and the Palm OS guys are eating them for breakfast. As things now stand Palm OS is going to be the de-facto handheld OS in much the same way that Windows is the de-facto desktop OS.

    If you think that the OS running on your PDA isn't a big deal then you clearly haven't ever synched your schedule with your wife's via Infared (sick, I know). Right now getting a Palm OS device is clearly the "safe" choice. There are plenty of applications, there are plenty of happy and knowledgeable users that can help you out, and it is much easier to share PDA information with other Palm OS users.

    While it certainly is true that most of these PDAs will get synched with Windows desktops, it is also true that the Palm OS devices will also synch with Windows devices. In fact, one of the reasons that the Palm has become so popular was because it was generally easier to get your Palm Pilot to connect to your PC than your WinCE device. I know, I have had to support both. Microsoft has no advantage in this area (other than the fact that they can change the APIs on the desktop).

    In Microsoft's current position they desperately need to include the greatest number of users possible. Ignoring entire sectors of the computer populace (especially sectors with as many PDAs as the Linux community) is a sure fire way to lose customers. After all, their competition's PDA will synch up with Linux without any problem. In the desktop arena Microsoft can afford to ignore us because they already have the majority, but in the PDA arena Microsoft is gearing up to be an "also ran."

    Of course, Microsoft isn't planning on supporting Linux, nor are they planning (probably) on releasing the information required to allow Linux users to support Windows CE devices. The reason for this is simple. In the short run the desktop is a much more important (and lucrative) market, and Microsoft will do everything in their power to make sure that all of their software ties users to Windows.

    When you're behind in the standards race it becomes important to use every means possible to make up lost ground. Microsoft may have added features to their product, but they certainly haven't added any freedom. They want to maintain control of Windows CE in the same manner that they maintained control of DOS. Well, the industry has already seen how that worked out. This is why almost all of the development in the handheld arena has been done for the Palm OS. The Palm folks have gone out of their way to make it possible for third party developers to hack the Palm. If it wasn't for Microsoft's billions propping WinCE up it would already be dead. No one else is writing applications for their OS, and hardly anyone uses WinCE devices. Microsoft isn't willing to pull out the stops, and so the makers of the Palm devices (who are willing) are going to eat them for lunch, plain and simple.

  • I own a Palm IIIx and I have a close friend of mine who owns a Casseopeia (which model I can't remember). I couldn't talk him into getting a Palm, he's into flash and "cool" factor.

    I'd say the a Palm V series have a lot of flash and cool factor about them, and good for them too. I recall your IIIx was once a dreamy high end machine. I finally started shopping around for some wearable computer to go with a Nokia GSM about a month ago. To my surprise, I ended up going the same route as your friend. Where at first I played with a friend's Palm V, looked at Palm emulators, went to have a peek at the IIIc in the store, and read Palm boards and newsgroups. Since I couldn't find anyone who had a CE machine, or any devices that appealed to me for sale in local shops here in Amsterdam, I didn't seriously envision WinCE in my future. Aside from that, Palms are just plain sexy. So I went to compare prices and models, and had my mind set on either a Vx or a IIIc. One thing that sucks about Europe; No Handspring, TRG hard to find, and the Palm that I really liked best, the IIIxe, isn't imported.

    But when I stopped to think about it, a Palm really wasn't what I wanted. What I am lusting for is an occassional burst of Internet connectivity on the go, and I imagined what a telnet session looks like on a Palm screen, even with a miniature font. Having to scroll around a lot just to see all of a ps aux was a turnoff. A screenshot of VNC for Palm revealed that you can just about fit the My Computer icon and Network Neighbourhood on a Palm screen. As for Web browsing on 160x160 pixels, ouch. I surveyed the rest of the market for a better palm terminal.

    I chanced upon a refurbished colour Compaq Aero for about the price of a Palm V and went with it. The nerd in me just could not resist a 70 Mhz MIPS R4000 with 16 meg RAM to go. Life at 320x240@16 bit depth turns out to be quite bearable, and while sound recording and a CFlash slot may not be things that I use daily right now, I'm kind of used to having sound and expansion slots on any computer I've had back to the Atari 8 bit.

    I'm reasonably content with this machine, although in retrospect I probably should've bought the Casio Casseopeia. The Casio's processor is faster, it has a joypad, and it runs more programs. But the Aero does what I need and WinCE talks PPP just fine with a Linux box. Add freeware iBrowser with auto picture downscaling and you can read in bed decently. There are a surprising number of websites that look quite ok, I guess I can skip WAP. Now it seems there's a CE 3.0 ROM upgrade coming in May, albeit for a 100$ fee, but still not too bad.

    One negative thing about WinCE that you missed is that there's not all that much software for it. There's isn't much included in the box, and what is out there is dwarfed by the massive amount of software that is available for Palm. Often you find that certain programs aren't available on all the WinCE CPU types, or that they stupidly won't run or have a messed up display on a particular form factor (P/PC, H/PC, H/PC Pro, you come to hate those terms), or that they were written for just one model. A few appealing games only support the Casio, for instance. Shareware/demo versions abound in WinCE land, and the simplest of programs tend to be commercial. But if you search long and hard you can assemble a decent toolkit.

    Anyway, this is a classic debate between an organiser and a more general purpose device, and although they're the almost the same size, you really can't compare a current Palm OS machine to a Windows CE one. I wanted a miniature computer and I think so did your friend. The extra abilities over Palm are offset by much weight and short battery life, and they're truely just flash and glitz if you want the optimal pocket organizer. But to me, they're useful.

  • Well, perhaps instead of just saying "the claims inb this article are not faire", you could counter them with claims and information of your own, rather than just being arbitrary? I'm sure we'd be fascinated to hear a different opinion, as long as it's not just "This article is very narrow minded".
  • I can appriciate what Palm has to offer, and the simplicity behind it's design. However, I'm still in favor of WindowsCE personally. (And I don't care WHAT Microsoft starts calling it, I will still be calling it Windows CE.)

    By all means, DON'T think I'm knocking Palm. I'd love to own a Pilot. I just don't think it would be worth my money. I would spend $400, and it would sit in the corner while I tapped on my WinCE devices. Sorry, but that's the way it is. (For Me.)

    I'm not supporting Windows on the desktop by any means. I'm a huge fan of Slackware...I Love it. However, in the PDA arena I would have to argue Windows CE over Palm. It just feels like you have so much more at your disposal to use. Multimedia Capabilities, High Color screens, compatibility with other CE devices from Other manufacturers, etc. Sure it's a cost of battery life, but hey - If that's a tradeoff you're willing to accept than do it. I have 3 CE devices, and I use them all.

    I own a Cassiopeia A10, and I upgraded the ROM to CE 2.0. It's the usual style upgrade, but I noticed when you tap the screen a lot, after a while the unit refuses any more input from both the keyboard and the screen. The only option is to reset. So I switched back to CE 1.0, and it's fine. That being the case, I'm a bit leery as to the stability of CE 3.0, but we'll have to see.

    Just my own opinion.

    -- Give him Head? Be a Beacon?

  • Well, I use my Everex Freestyle to help with my job (it keeps those movie times in check), the Cassiopeia and Mobilon are my development machines. (SH3 and MIPS)

    Mostly, I like checking out each different platform.

    -- Give him Head? Be a Beacon?

  • While I do agree that the Palm handhelds doesn't have ALL the functionality of a DayTimer book, the thing is that many people who USE DayTimer books don't use the full potential functionality of it.

    In that case, a Palm handheld works REAL well, to say the least. The Palm V series are definitely worth getting, especially with its very compact size. Especially now that Palm has reduced the price of the Palm Vx to only US$399.
  • On my Palm IIIe, according to runtime, Over the past 5 battery changes I have had a runtime of 22:47. The average time between changes is 14d, 17:41. Call it 14/22 and you get ~38 minutes per day of usage. A lot of that time is with the backlight on, so take it with a grain of salt. ;)
  • But if Microsoft really fixes their software, then Palm could have a problem. Spiff up their hardware, though, and it becomes a non-issue.

    Now that Palm is licensing their OS, we should see a lot more variety in the Palm hardware. Recent changes in the OS (with more to come) allow for deployment of Palm OS on a variety of different hardware configurations, and with a variety of different Kernels.

    I think that Palm is way ahead of MS as far as the software v. hardware race goes.

  • Microsoft is too focused on Palm, methinks, what with the form factor and all...

    What Pocket PC would rock in, I think, is in a digital camcorder, digital camera, or mp3 player.

    I only think that because PocketPC is too clunky, clumsy, and big, that Palm(with it's licenses to Sony et al) will get there first, and do it better.

    But that doesn't suit M$'s purposes, does it? Because in those devices, the OS is secondary and is only there to enable the devices themselves; record and playback, digital media, etc.

    -AS
  • In order to be successful Windows CE devices have to implement these:

    * Long battery life: 2-3 weeks
    * Lightweight: some are making progress but most are still not as lightweight as they should be.
    * Easy to use: the Start menu doesn't exactly translate to WinCE that much

    Once these are implemented Windows CE will gain a much stronger foothold.
  • > the WinCE devices were designed to play MP3's,
    > MPEG's, and generally to be impress-the-chicks
    > devices.

    Dude, tsk tsk. There are plenty of Palm apps with good "wow" factor. My favorite is the "Suck-o-meter," which tells you if an object you point the palm at sucks or not. I aimed it my friend eight times in a row, and he sucked everyone one of those time. Besides that, there is freecell, minesweeper, avantgo, and some other cool games. Color sucks too much batteries, and mp3s are pointless because you can only carry around the equivalent of 1 CD or so with you. And mpegs on a palm-sized device are pointless.
  • Well, my IIIx gets on the average 2 months per battery change, and a total ON time (unit in use/displaying something) just shy of 24 hours.

    So, a continuous 24 hour battery usage on two AAA batteries, I find that is pretty decent for a device like this.

    I don't use the backlight too much because I never needed it that much (great in low-light and outdoors, too).

    BTW, one of the reasons why Palm has so many more applications is that there's a free (beer|speech) toolset (the familiar tools - gcc, gdb, and other nice GNU stuff), and a commercial toolset. Support for other OS's helps, too. While gcc requires a not-so-nice hack in the code, it's a cheap way of development.

    AFAIK, WInCE requires a Win machine because CE sets up a serial network connection to sync, and to develop requires use of a Visual C++ variant (which costs $$$).
  • I have 3 CE devices, and I use them all.

    Your pockets must be full. ;) What do you do with three of these devices? (For the record, I have one Palm III and I use it - obsessively, some might say.)

  • Mostly, I like checking out each different platform.

    I hear that. I take it that, considering they're all running the same OS (namely, CE), that the differences are in the I/O - the different screens and input devices. Any insights?

  • I got my first Palm when it was a Pilot, years ago before 3com had bought the company. I've been a loyal user until about 2 weeks ago, when I switched to a Compaq Aero 1530 from my PalmV.
    I finally switched because the size and speed of the devices became reasonable. My Aero is the same thickness as my Palm V was and is a LITTLE bit taller. It fits in my front pocket perfectly. It is noticably slower than the Palm, but very usable (NOT like the earlier CE devices, which sometimes took multiple seconds to do things).
    The key for me was the increase in functionality. The scheduling tool is far more flexible than the one that came with my Palm and Pocket Streets is incredible. Some people might think that it is overkill for a handheld, but I LOVE being able to locate addresses and establishments when I am away from my computer. The voice recorder has also been handy at times-It is easy to record notes for myself that get emailed to me when I sync.
    Also, it was reasonably cheap-about $280. It is greyscale, but I don't have a need for color and like the improved battery life.
    I haven't had a single crash (I actually don't even know how to reset it, I should probably find out just in case). I did have crashes at somewhat regular intervals with the Palm, but I was running more 3rd party stuff on it (because most of the built-in apps kind of sucked (what's up with not being able to postpone a meeting notice? At least there is DB3)). I do have to say, however, that the support for Palms has always ROCKED.
    I just ordered the upgrade rom to go to the PocketPC software from CE and am looking forward to seeing if it is any better. I do wish the hardware were a bit faster (I sometimes have to wait a second or so), but that will change over time-it's sure gotten better since the last versions.
  • Did you see? The camera is available. Takes greyscale or color pictures.

    Slowly but surely, here they come. I'm really hoping for a phone, but I'll settle for that CUE radio.
  • I have a Palm III and I love it. As a student it does everything I could ever want it to do. Sure color/audio/wireless is alright, but at the cost of size/price/battery life? No thanks.

    Basically even if MS comes out with a perfect "Palm killer" that has all of the above hardware features and none of the drawbacks, I will still remain with Palm because of:

    A) Brand trust (that still matters doesn't it?)
    B) Linux/Beos/whatever-alternative-OS-I-may-play-with compatability.

    And of course we all know, that Palm and company (Handspring, etc.) are going to sit idly by while Microsoft tries to invade their space. Hopefully by the time the Palm IX (I just made that up, don't get excited) is out, I can afford a new one on my student wages (read: none) :-)

    Spyky
  • Not to feed the flames of offtopicness, but in that case, you should consider posting it to the FOSE story on /. today as well. You might get a higher percentage of DC-area readers in that thread.

  • It will be a great day when Psion finally figures out how to let the world know about its palmtop.

    I've been using the Psion Series 5mx [psioninc.com] (and previously the 5) for several years now. It does everything I want in a Palmtop. Can run more "real" apps than the Palm, and does them better than the PocketPC. Why does this great tool go unnoticed?

    Just to give a few software examples, it's got a fine word processor, spreadsheet and flat-file database. (A relational database is available aftermarket.) It comes with calendar, contacts, email, web browsing ... all the expected items from a "connected organizer" And it does synchronize with many desktop apps.

    After the standard software, things get interesting. There's a large and dedicated bunch of people making amazing things for the Psion. I've got Doom [palmtop.nl] (yes, you can get it for CE, too), a PDF viewer [xs4all.nl] , and pretty much anything else you'd ever want. It's a real computer, with real applications for it. And the crowning glory is that the Psion has Perl [linuxstart.com]. There is even a project to put Linux on the Psion [calcaria.net], but the built in OS is really quite good.

    On to hardware: The best thing about the Psion is its keyboard, a real one. I can even touch type on it. No chiclet keys these, but full-travel good feeling keys. Yes they're close together, yes you have to do a key combination to get slash, but I can type so much faster than I can graffiti, it's worth a few adjustments.

    The 5mx is as speedy as I need, 36mHz ARM processor; 16 megs of RAM built in, with a slot for Compact Flash cards. And the screen ... well, it's big, and useful, 640x240. The 5mx is brighter than the 5, but they still could learn something about bright screens from Palm. Oh, 16 shades of gray, too, makes viewing images much nicer. Finally, battery life: I get a month out of 2 AA batteries: somewhere between 20 and 35 hours depending on how much I use the backlight.

    As far as palmtops go, I've never seen one that does everything I need it to do, and does it the way I expect it to be done, as does the Psion Series 5mx. Psion also makes other palmtops, the more consumer oriented Revo [psioninc.com], and the larger, color, Series 7 [psioninc.com], but I still think the Series 5 is the best of the bunch.

  • I own a Palm and it is NOT a daytimer replacement. It's good for names/addresses/phone numbers/emails because you can do a (not great, but decent) search. The screen is so small, you can't see a month at a time, and it's not very easy to look ahead in time. In the daytimer I have my to do list on the same page as the appointments, and you can't do this on a Palm. I've also found the to do list hard to use because it doesn't delete the items by itself, you have to go in and delete all the things you did a few weeks ago. It's just not very practical in my mind.

    But for something small to carry around, with entries easy to delete once they become obsolete, in the address book... this is the #1 thing I use it for. How many times are you in BFE, you forgot to bring your daytimer because it's too large to carry around unless you think you're going to use it... and you NEED the number of... the local police, AAA, your great aunt who lives nearby but you weren't expecting on being in that area of town... any number of things.

    That's why they sell daytimer covers with pockets for your Palm as well... they are great for in conjunction but the Palm is no replacement for it.

  • It will be a great day when Psion finally figures out how to let the world know about its palmtop.

    Why does this great tool go unnoticed?

    For the same reason that the clamshell WinCE devices with tiny keyboards were even bigger duds than WinCE handhelds. Users see them as tiny laptops. Notebook computers are getting smaller and smaller to the point where you're not really giving up much in the way of weight to a palmtop device.

    As a result, the palmtop market got killed, or at the very least smothered, by Win9x mini-notebooks. WinCE handhelds also ate into the palmtop market from below. Now that Microsoft has begun to get its act together with PocketPC, what's left of the palmtop market will be further eroded as users of clamshell WinCE devices decide that they are willing to give up their devices' tiny keyboards.

    IMHO, as PalmOS and PocketPC devices get more sophisticated and mini-notebooks' battery lives improve, the market for clamshell palmtops like the Psion can only get smaller.
  • >Actually, the Handspring Visor's expandability >is great, but finding one is a bit difficult.

    Handspring does great business selling Visors direct. Go to the website and you shouldn't have much trouble ordering one online. I know they also sell them direct over the phone.

    I've been very interested in Handspring's Visor, but I'm waiting for Springboard modules that aren't vaporware. It looks like there's gonna be a GPS springboard module Real Soon Now. As soon as that's out I'll be looking very closely at getting a Visor. My only gripe is that the maps that come with the GPS module don't include U.S. railroads.

    -carl
  • Actually, I don't think that the Web Surfing Cell Phones are the answer. Nor is turning the PDA into a Cell Phone. As you point out, the Qualcomm thing just doesn't cut it. But any integration of a phone and PDA has to make compromises.

    A better solution is to use Bluetooth. Bluetooth can be used as a "Person Area Network". If your cellphone has Bluetooth and your PDA has Bluetooth, then you can surf from your PDA with no problems. And you can dial a number on your PDA. But you don't have to worry about not being able to access your PDA if your phone's battery dies. And if you change cell phone providers, No Problem, as long as your new phone is Bluetooth enabled as well.

    I want a bigger screen, and different input, than you can possibly fit on a cell-phone. And in the end, I just want about 14 buttons on my cell phone so I can dial a phone number.

    Don't try to force things together that just don't fit.

    SKG
  • IMHO, as several other people have pointed out, comparing PocketPC and Palm Pilot is kinda like comparing apples and oranges. Well, not exactly, but close.

    PocketPC tries to live up to its name, a PC that fits in your pocket. It's got a color display, an operating system, file system, and apps up the yazoo. Oh, and it's also got an address book, contact manager, and todo list.

    Palm Pilots excel at being address books, contact managers, and todo lists. Oh, and they also run some other cool apps. (The preceding characterizations are oversimplified to illustrate my point.)

    I wouldn't say the review was "not fair", it's perfectly fair from the standpoint of someone who only needs a pocket-organizer, reviewing a pocket-computer (I delibrately didn't use the product names so as to emphasize their functions).

    IMO, Palm has little to worry about as long as they stick to their "core competency"; i.e., small, energy efficient pocket-organizers (that maybe run a few other apps). IMO, the only danger is if MS decides to release a "dedicated app" version of their PocketPC (basically a stripped down PocketPC that only runs MS Outlook) then Palm might have to worry.

    ---
    Any correspondence between my opinions and reality is purely coincidental.
  • You can have my Visor when you pry it from my cold dead fingers. Kicks the palm around the room and at a much better price! Now if they would only come through on their promises of the Springboard cards....
  • The protestors need something to sing and dance to while playing.

    Why not a rewrite of YMCA by the Village People seeing as DMCA sounds like YMCA?

    Anyone want to help with the words to this? If you can help in any way (especially the original words).

    Send suggestions to hoss@technologist.com and next time there is a DMCA related story I'll try to post it!

    ------------------------------------------------ -
    "If I can shoot rabbits then I can shoot fascists" -

  • hmmm...Ok, I'll agree with you on those, but I think that UI shock within Windows family is minimal, especially after 95. Application UI changes, well, that's a different story. But I'll tell you, though I'm not necessarily proud of it, I'm pretty sure Cut and Paste works the same way in most Windows programs. The kind of UI shock I'm talking about would something akin to going from using shift-delete to ctrl-x for cut, and shift-insert to ctrl-v for paste (even though the shift key combos make more sense in a way).

    But it definitely does help that everyone is giong through them at the same time. Being frustrated together is certainly better than being frustrate alone.

  • I didn't say there wasn't any. DOS to Windows, certainly. But in keeping with Windows everywhere "vision", Microsoft's various versions of Windows is actually pretty stable. Windows 3.x to Window 95 is the biggest shock event in Windows history. The ActiveDesktop and Win2K difference is negligible, as many critics will point out there it's basically the same, no significant improvements. Windows and WinNT? No major difference as far as I'm concerned. Only when you try to look under the hood.

    But you know what? This brings to mind something else: Apple. The Macintosh has had a very stable UI as well, and they've built a loyal user base because of that. Windows built a larger one and faster because the hardware was open and cheaper and therefore more accessible. Apple wanted to maintain integrity, and good for them that they were able to hang in so well.

    My point with all of this is that the Linux community can be well served to learn some lessons from AOL and Microsoft (and Apple). Don't constantly jump to something completely new and different just interest of technological/philosophical superiority. Geeks in general can be extreme and fanatical in regards to this. How about thinking about users for a change? Actually, I take that back. People in the Open Source/Linux community can do whatever, because everyone together serves as Research and Development. It is up to the companies that package and bundle and value-add Open Source software to make the user's experience smooth. They are the ones that need to think about the user.

  • I have a question relating to the handwriting input for the Pocket PC. I assume that if MS really wanted to lure Palm users to come use the Pocket PC, they would not only offer things that Palm does not, but also offer "transitional" features that are familiar to Palm users to ease their migration to the Pocket PC, much the same way that Microsoft offered Netware connectivity from NT, or Microsoft's failed attempt to hijack AOL Instant Messenger users with their own version of messenger. So why don't they offer software that would recognize graffiti? Or would that be in violation of Some Legal Thing(tm)? Or is it that it would just be too confusing?
  • Quoting "The Microsoft people didn't bother (I'm not sure if they even knew it was there, to be honest), they just rebooted the device every few minutes. " HELLO!?!?!? In the "old" days they either seemed to cover up reboots, or blame them on other things out of their control. Now M$ seems to think everybody will just accept this, and right there, in plain sight, at a product launch no less, says "ah, hold on just a sec and we'll reboot it again" WTF!?!?!? Is the public this accepting of crappy stability that you can be REQUIRED to reboot something at it's launch (when I would think it should be on it's best behaviour) "every few minutes"!?!? Oh jeesh do I truly despise this company....
  • Yes, a Newton with todays technology, that
    would a real useful PDA. I still prefer my
    Newton 130 over everything thats on the market.

    Mr. Jobs, how about buying Palm Inc. and merging
    the Palm with the Newton. I think this could be
    a real Killer Device.
  • The book on Palm programming describes the function of Palm devices as a "satellite" to another PC or PCs. Notice that Palm devices don't have keyboards. This is totally intentional, as if one is going to do a lot of data entry, then you'll do it on your PC and sync it. Palm devices are designed to be compact enough to fit into a shirt pocket, and still deliver all the functionality of a PDA. So with a Palm, I can do all the necessary things I need to do while traveling, doing business, and in transit. This rarely invloves doing spreadsheets or writing anything other than small notes or memos.

    WinCE devices seem to elude definition. Are they PDAs? Are they small computers? I can't imagine how frustrating it would be trying to use Excel or Word or any serious desktop app on a hendheld device. Sorry, I like not being blind. If they're "Pocket PCs", then I expect a keyboard and pointing device, and much of the same functionality of a laptop computer, without having to sacrifice too much. The price of these little honeys has to make it worthwhile.

    One of the things I've always admired was the minimal-minded approach to the Palm devices, and their cousins the Handspring PDAs. The OS is stable, and it's always there when I need it. I did not buy a WinCE device because I felt that I didn't need or want the functionality that the WinCE devices supposedly provided. Reports of WinCE's unreliability also put me off.

    Software is another big issue for me. I love the variety and selection of software available for the Palm device, and this is due to the support developers get from Palm. WinCE developers are in the same position as Windows developers. The same predatory practices that led to Windows domination and the deaths of Lotus, Novell, etc. are in play here as well.

    But I digress. My original point is that the Palm family of devices do not, at least apparently, have the same reason for being that WinCE devices do. I think the similarity between the devices ends beyond their small size.


  • I'm surprised that neither Palm nor Microsoft has added cellphone capability onto their devices. Palm announced wireless Web and/or Bluetooth will be part of the next generation of devices, but it seems to me the competition is not just from Microsoft, but from those Web surfing cell-phones. (Sorry, that Qualcomm frankenstein thing just doesn't cut it just yet.)

    It won't be too long before the little PDA becomes yet another object of convergence: cellphone, voicemail, and wireless Web + address book, organizer stuff + fax + MP3 radio + games, games. (Plus IrDA and Bluetooth.) I hear in Japan they already have point-to-point video via their cell-phones.

    Now just add extended battery life, a screaming processor, and Linux...

  • Let's face it, PalmOS is a great program, but palm devices are good only thanks to third party applications. Palm is a bad company that is behaving exactly like a monopolist should bahave. Think about:
    1) How they handled their shipping of maany defective screens on their new PalmIIIx: the streaking problem was solved by a third party programmer: they should have bought the code and given it away to all who spent $300+ for the new device
    2) Crappy built-in applications: for example addressbook not integrated with to-do: we're lucky there is datebk3 (and I have seen a prerelease of db4, oh boy it's goooood)
    3) Lack of a speaker capable of dialing phone numbers: I have seen someone claiming that a dialing speaker would cost only 50c more than the current speaker
    4) Crappy synchronization: why is it synchronizing only built-in applications? 5) USB: what in the hell are they waiting for?
    I only hope that the new competition will force them to think seriously about trivial feature they should have improved long ago. I love palm, but if it weren't for the third party applications I wouldn't be so impressed.

  • OT (sort of) YOPY Dev Kit Out April 30th (Score:3)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 21, 2000 @04:17AM (#1119991)
    I got an email from Gmate [gmate.co.kr] saying the software development kit for the Yopy will be out on April 30th. In case you don't know, the Yopy is a Linux based PDA that will be marketed by Samsung [samsung.co.kr]. It runs on the 206mhz StrongARM and has a 4" TFT color screen, stereo audio, 32 meg ROM, 32 meg flash RAM (both upgradeable), compact flash slot, RS-232 and USB, 4-way game type buttons, a LiOh battery and runs Linux with W Windows [students.tut.fi]. Gamate is developing lots of fun gadgets to plug into the CF slot (digital camera, PCS phone, Bluetooth and other wireless stuff). The Yopy itself is due out around the first of June. Cpt_Kirks

  • Re:Palm great if you want it as Daytimer replaceme (Score:3)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 21, 2000 @05:14AM (#1119992)
    If you really want a Handspring Visor or Visor Deluxe, go to your local Best Buy, Staples, or CompUSA!! It's that easy! The prices are the same...and, if you're lucky, they will have the color you want. Last I checked, the local Best Buy didn't have Orange or Green Visor Deluxe's. Springboard modules are comming available very quickly and support is expanding! The Ideo EyeModule is now available! The EyeModule is a digital camera capable of storing up to 500 b/w photos, 125 160x160 pixel photos, or 25 COLOR photos!!! It retails for $149. Alot cheaper than your average digital camera! - KMS

  • Re:I just want the Newton back (Score:3)

    by Geoff ( 968 ) on Friday April 21, 2000 @04:33AM (#1119993) Homepage
    Yeah, me too.

    Several years later, I still haven't seen a handheld with the potential of the Newton.

    I suppose Jobs had his reasons, and time and the stock market have validated his move, but I sure do wish they'd kept the Newton (or kept it spun off as Newton, Inc.)

    Just image with Newton OS 3.0 running on a MessagePad 3200 might have been like. Then again, don't. It's too depressing.

  • I know what I'd prefer (Score:3)

    by nathanh ( 1214 ) on Friday April 21, 2000 @04:06AM (#1119994) Homepage
    This is the inevitable car analogy, but I think that there's
    a similarity to car buyers that needs to be said.

    Given $40k to spend on a car there is one sort of person who
    will buy the sports car with a huge engine and sunroof. The
    Imprezza or an M2 attracts this sort of person like a fly to
    honey. They want the horsepower, the bucket seats, the mags
    and sports tyres, etc.

    Then there's another sort of person who thinks the Imprezza
    or M2 is impractical. You can't seat four people in comfort,
    the bucket seats are small and restrictive, the big engine
    is a waste of petrol for city driving, and the boot is just
    too small. These people prefer a nice roomy sedan.

    My opinion on this is that some people want a car they can
    show off to their friends. They want to tell everyone how
    big the engine is, how fast it goes, how much it cost. The
    sedan owner just wants a car they can use every day, that
    is practical and useful, and is good value for money.

    My Palm Pilot 3 is practical and useful. I also think I'd
    in all honesty prefer a sedan to a sports car.

  • Re:What nobody seems to get about WinCE (Score:3)

    by jht ( 5006 ) on Friday April 21, 2000 @07:16AM (#1119995) Homepage Journal
    It's the Version 3.0 phenomenon.

    Version 3.0 of WinCE is just Microsoft finally "getting it right" as they have in the past. The same thing was true of Windows, it finally became viable with the 3.0 release.

    Windows NT 4.0 is even the third version of NT (3.1, 3.5, 4.0)....


    You do have a good point - There have been a handful of programs where Microsoft has had a winner from the first rev (the first version of Excel - on the Mac originally - was pretty innovative, and Word PC was fairly solid from the start - in fact, on the Mac side at least the 3rd version of Word was a disaster) - but they typically require a few iterations to really tune the product. The Microsoft pattern seems to be something like this:

    1: Pre-announce to try and freeze the market in place.

    2: Release version 1. This product usually has major shortcomings, but is reasonably stable - just exasperating.

    3: Incorporate loads of new features and call it version 2. 2.0 usually is pretty bloated from all the new features and buggy as can be. It pretty much serves to full the features checklist that the suits use to buy software.

    4: Fix most of the bugs, streamline the program, and fix the funky stuff in the interface (well, most of it...). Begin dominating the world with it.

    The one thing positive I'll say about their process is that they do listen better than many companies, and by version 3.0 they typically have what Joe User wants. There is at least some basis other than pure monopolistic spirit behind Microsoft's dominance in most areas - they may not be doing the Right Thing, but they give enough to most users that the market is willing to put up with them.

    Remember, Microsoft would love it if they had all the computing world, but those of us here on /. are not their market. And we're a distinct minority, unfortunately.

    - -Josh Turiel

  • What nobody seems to get about WinCE (Score:3)

    by jht ( 5006 ) on Friday April 21, 2000 @04:43AM (#1119996) Homepage Journal
    The newest generation of WinCE devices do succeed at one thing: Microsoft is no longer a handheld laughingstock. The devices are enough of a step beyond the earlier generation of CE to restore some credibility to Microsoft - I think that was their major objective. I've used CE somewhat (and I have a Jornada 540 on the way from HP as a premium from a promotion they had on their network switches) - and CE devices have some good points. From a software standpoint, there is some commonality between desktop Windows and CE, so that the developers have a head start. From a user perspective, the interfaces are just similar enough as to not be a major problem. However, here's the biggest differences:

    Palm has smaller devices, much better battery life, a large and robust developer community, and far more applications. The prices are cheaper, and the Palm OS devices (Handspring and TRG included) are pretty flexible - Palm sticks to the basics and the licencees concentrate on cost and expandability. Palm OS systems also integrate much better with non-Windows operating systems.

    WinCE has bigger screens in all versions, a variety of form factors, a shorter development learning curve for Windows programmers, arguably better networking capability and Internet functionality, and more developed basic applications - even if Pocket Word is the equivalent of WordPad, that's still far better than the built-in Memo app on Palm OS. And Palm has no (standard) ability to handle any kind of spreadsheet or presentations.

    The name difference does mean something. The Palm is a true PDA that has relatively little built-in functionality but what it has, it's really good at. Palm also is extremely extensible. Microsoft has concentrated on putting as much functionality as possible into their platform, and they've succeeded - they even have managed to be compatible with all the memory leaks in desktop Windows! Microsoft is the master of cramming ten pounds of shite into a five-pound bag, and CE/PocketPC is a wonderful example of it.

    The devices will sell a lot better than the older ones did, but the likeliest effect of PocketPC will be to grow the overall market rather than to erode Palm's market share. This could change, of course, depending on what Palm does next.

    - -Josh Turiel
  • 2) there are apps available to sync with any unix flavor. You just have to look good.

    See? Microsoft discriminates against ugly people!

    --Joe
    --
  • is a billiards game.

    Um, if you have to ask... um, well, nevermind....

  • Re:I know what I'd prefer (Score:3)

    by SuperKendall ( 25149 ) on Friday April 21, 2000 @06:32AM (#1119999)
    I'd prefer a sports car - specifically an Audi TT [audi-tt.org]. That's why I have a Palm V - I want something that is really really good at what it's built for - weither that be driving or PDA'ing.

    The Palm V is the only PDA that can fit comforatbly in my jeans pockets day after day. With the hard case [modusmedia.com], the thing is nigh invulnerable and I can keep keys in the same pocket.

  • I think to some degree comparing the Palm GUI to WinCE GUI is not entirely valid. Our company works with both, and each have missions in which they excel.

    The Palm is a great example of how sometimes less is more: smaller, lighter, cheaper, simpler. We use it for bread-and-butter kinds of field data collection applications. It's an easy sell and it works great.

    WinCE devices try to bring powerful computing capabilities down into a tiny form factor. Obviously, the success depends a great deal on the manufacturer's choice of hardware -- and the choice of application. As far as the GUI is concerned, you obviously can't shoehorn a full sized desktop GUI app into a palmtop. However to be fair that's not what WinCE does, so its a bit of a straw argument. There is an optimal size form factor for writing the Great American Novel; and viewing a spreadsheet on a palm sized screen negates the two dimensional advantages of the spreadsheet paradigm.

    However, the fact that these don't work well have nothing to do with WinCE and everything to do with the nature of the tasks being performed. These applications simply do not scale to palmtop size very well. There are many sophisticated applications that fit very nicely onto a palm top. For example, we use WinCE for field surveying and mapping with GPS. The palm platform, even in its new color incarnation, has neither the computing power nor the display quality do handle these tasks very well.

    The Palm devices, because they are more constrained, can be svelter and cheaper. These are real advantages in day to day use, but not a crushingly deciding factor in Palm's favor. The real factor in Palm's favor is not in the OS per se but in the integration with the desktop. It was as if in creating ActivSynch, Microsoft said, "let's take the HotSynch idea and make it better," which in Microsoft-ese means stuff it to the friggin' gills with gee-whiz features.

    Any time you integrate two pieces of technology, there's no higher praise than to say it runs smoothly, and no greater criticism than to say it is unreliable. Unfortunately for WinCE, ActiveSynch is more elaborate and elaborate also means flakier. ActiveSynch is, in a nutshell, a pain in the ass. It creates compatability problems; when it doesn't work you have to fuss with it; it offers integration metaphors to the user that are clunky. If I'm a user managing data entry from thirty or more employees in the field (like some of our clients do), the last thing I need is to have five percent of them have oddball configuration nightmares in any given week.

    The HotSynch technology from Palm is simpler, and simply works without any headaches or fussing at all. It puts integration complexity squarely where it belongs -- on the application developer.

    So, all in all I'd rate WinCE as the best of the MS OS lineup. I have no problems at all with running applications that are suited to the form factor on WinCE. However, if I had to manage a bunch of these, or were not the type of person who has the willingness and time to balk with ambitious and flaky software, then I'd go with Palm, not because of the OS but because of the flakiness of integrating with the desktop.

  • A few comments (Score:3)

    by kaphka ( 50736 ) <1nv7b001@sneakemail.com> on Friday April 21, 2000 @09:59AM (#1120001)
    Coming from the perspective of a Cassiopeia E-105 user, who has owned a PalmPilot and a Newton in the past, but has not seen the new Pocket PCs in person...
    So it there are effectively 8 buttons on the Palm, 5 on the Jornada (counting the record button), and 4 on the Cassiopeia
    You sure that's right? My Cassiopeia has four app buttons, an "escape" button, an "action" button, and the directional pad (which is also a button.) In addition, there is the two-way rocker and the four-way directional pad. Have they removed some of these? (That would actually be a good idea, IMHO, but I doubt it has happened.)
    They claim no performance hit on the PC when this is running.
    I hate to knock WinCE based on anecdotal evidence, but on my PC, ActiveSync 3.0 uses about 8% of the CPU when it is otherwise idle. I'm pretty sure this is phantom CPU usage (I haven't had any problem playing Quake while it's running,) but I'm still troubled by it. Does anyone know what the deal is?
    almost anything the PocketPC does out of the box you can get for a Palm via third party software or hardware
    But remember that all of that third-party software uses up some of your 8 MB of RAM. A Pocket PC with all those features still has all its memory free.
    There is no dedicated entry area as there is on the Palms.
    You mention this several times, as though it were a good thing. I can't imagine how an unbiased user would prefer to have a third of his potential screen area dedicated to a function which may only be used 20% of the time. Personally, I really appreciate using that extra inch and a half to view web pages, read email, etc.
    You can't use a pen stroke [for "return" or "backspace"] the way you can with Graffiti.
    Has this changed in WinCE 3.0? On my WinCE 2.x machine, those strokes work just like on the Palm. Maybe the new buttons are just alternatives?
    The Home App on both devices is similar to the Launcher on PalmOS, but not really. It doesn't list all the programs on the device.
    You neglect to mention that it does list your new email messages, your high priority tasks, your appointments for the day, etc. (You can set it up to show pretty much anything.) I find that feature really useful, and my PalmPilot Pro didn't have it. Do the new Palms do that?
    Then there's also the Programs item in the Start Menu, which lists more programs. The lists don't coincide.
    This is intentional. With so little space on the screen, why would you put the same item in two places? The Programs folder is supposed to be for less frequently-used apps. (That's the philosophy, anyway, I'm not sure I like it.)
    In addition, some programs you close with the "Tools | Exit" menu (which is at the bottom of the screen) and some you close with an "ok" button in the upper right corner. Others don't seem to have an Exit option, at least not one that is obvious.
    I went crazy looking for the "exit" command for the first week that I had my Cassiopeia. Eventually, I understood the way CE works... Since processes are persistent, you're never supposed to exit them. They just go away when the OS decides it's time. Dialog boxes, of course, have "ok" buttons, just like in a Desktop OS. Unfortunately, some badly written third-party apps have "exit" commands, which is confusing.
    Programs are copied from "storage" RAM to "active" RAM to run
    Of course, almost everything you'd ever want to use is actually stored in ROM, not RAM. (See above.)
    If you run out of "active" RAM, you have to close programs
    This is a little misleading. The OS swaps programs out of memory automatically, and it's completely transparent. I suppose that if you didn't even have enough RAM to run a single program, you might have a problem, but I've never seen that happen.

    You know, when the reviewer prefaces almost every fact with "supposedly", it kind of damages the credibility of the review. The facts in this review are basically accurate, but the tone should be taken with a grain of salt.

    And speaking of credibility... I've been posting like crazy in defense of WinCE lately. I'm not a shill for Microsoft, and I'm not even really much of a Microsoft booster. I do get a little annoyed at the severe hypocrisy among /.ers (who seem to love monopolies, as long as they aren't Microsoft,) but that's not why I'm defending WinCE... I honestly just think that it's a shame that geeks are letting their bias prevent them from enjoying what is clearly the cooler, more geek-friendly option.
  • Jornada. Is that some sort of an HP engineer's in-joke?

    "Hey, what's that?"

    "An HP Jornada"

    "Jornada what?"

    "Jornada very intelligent, are you?"

    Or better yet:

    "Hey, what should we call this thing"

    "Let's call it 'Not a Palm.'"

    "Hey, Prototype! Jornada Palm! You hear me?"

  • Don't forget EPOC... (Score:3)

    by Colm@TCD ( 61960 ) on Friday April 21, 2000 @05:35AM (#1120003) Homepage
    It's not Microsoft that Palm should see as their major competitor, it's Symbian's EPOC [symbian.com] system. Symbian's on a bit of a 'slow burn', but don't lose sight of the fact that all the world's largest cellphone manufacturers are lined up to put EPOC on their next-gen phones and phone/PDA hybrids before the end of this year, or the middle of 2001. While it's obvious to most people that current attempts at integrating cellphones and PDAs haven't been entirely successful (the Nokia 9110i [nokia.com] is probably the best, but not entirely satisfactory as either a phone or as a PDA), the advent of devices such as Bluetooth [bluetooth.com] headsets should really change that situation. Imagine something with the form-factor of a Palm Vx [palm.com], running Symbian's EPOC, talking via Bluetooth to a headset, and via GSM to the phone and data networks, and the possibilities should become apparent... there are a hell of a lot of cellphone users out there; whoever conquers that market is practically guaranteed dominance in the 'traditional' PDA market.

  • Logical step for Microsoft (Score:3)

    by DeepDarkSky ( 111382 ) on Friday April 21, 2000 @04:15AM (#1120004)
    Forget for one moment that this is Microsoft's attempt at breaking into the market of handhelds. Forget that there's Palm and that it just simply works better for what it is supposed to do (in contrast to feature cramming). I'm sure for usability, Palm and many non-WinCE devices work better than PocketPC.

    But Microsoft is doing what it has been doing all this time - putting Windows everywhere. From their point of view, of course, it's corporate strategy. But surprisingly, it is also something that serves current users of Windows of any flavor well (sort of. What they don't know won't hurt them is the line of thought here).

    For me, one of Microsoft's single greatest feat was NOT making a superior OS, but make an OS that is backwards compatible and provides good continuous user experience. What I mean is that there's no "UI-shock" except when you went from DOS to windows. But those were gradual steps. Microsoft had to build their OSes so that it would support countless different combinations of hardware devices stuck together that we roughly called PCs. Throughout the lifetime of Windows, the users were able to expect certain things to work similarly to previous versions. That says a lot about keeping users in mind.

    Sure, we can come up with really great and intuitive UI that blows Windows away, but what about the users? It will take time to re-educate them. One might argue that a great UI will require minimal re-education - but we are not quite there yet, are we? In the mean time, Microsoft is trying to break into the handheld market with Windows. Not a surprise. The execution is poor because they are trying to cram so much into the PocketPC. But that's what they are doing strategically to get market share. They are trying to bring Windows users who's never had a handheld before to start using PocketPC. That's a smart move any way you look at it. And they do it by giving the user the familiar Windows UI that they've been used to. In some ways, that's very applaudable. Look at the two giant companies today: AOL and Microsoft - they build their business by making things easier and more accessible, but not necessarily better than everyone else. And that's why they are the big corporations they are today. Most people out there are not looking for technologically superior products. They are looking for easy to use, accessible stuff that everyone else has.

    I think there's a lot of lessons to be learned from Microsoft and AOL, big evil corporate empires they may be. Miguel from GNOME certainly did, when he just copied all those the features from MS Excel. Learn to extend and embrace.

  • Palm Users Retaliate (Score:4)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 21, 2000 @03:53AM (#1120005)

    I saw this posted to one of the Palm news sites.

    http://www.mikew.org/html/PalmSimple.html [mikew.org]

  • Palm could learn about hardware (Score:4)

    by kzinti ( 9651 ) on Friday April 21, 2000 @03:16AM (#1120006) Homepage Journal
    Although I despise the software running on the WinCE devices (or whatever they're being called this month), I think the hardware has some extremely cool aspects to it. For starters, there's the larger 16-bit color displays; yes, Palm now makes a color device, but it's 8-bit color and it's still the old 160x160 pixel screen. Second, I like the audio-in/audio-out capabilities of (some of) the CE devices. Being able to record audio notes, or to play MP3s would be something I would like to be able to do on my Palm. On the other hand, the CE devices require faster CPUs, resulting in dismal battery life. They require more memory, which jacks up the cost. And they're still clunky compared to the sleek slim design of the Palm V (I haven't played with the latest generation of the CE devices. though).

    So I'd like to see Palm stuff a spiffy new display and some audio capabilities into their devices while still retaining the slim form factor and decent battery life, and of course keeping their software and UI relatively unchanged. Do that and they'd bury Microsoft. As it is, the fancier hardware on the CE toys is going to entice some people over to the Dark Side.

    I know two engineers who once carried Palms but ditched them for the better hardware available on CE devices. However, after six months of carrying their CE devices, these guys both said they regretted the decision and like their old Palms better. But if Microsoft really fixes their software, then Palm could have a problem. Spiff up their hardware, though, and it becomes a non-issue.

    --Jim

  • Palm great if you want it as Daytimer replacement (Score:4)

    by RayChuang ( 10181 ) on Friday April 21, 2000 @03:22AM (#1120007)
    Having tried the Palm Vx, all I can say is that if you're looking for a complete replacement for that DayTimer book with direct access to contact manager programs, look no further. In fact, that's what most people use Palm devices for.

    But try to do things like surfing the Internet and it gets a bit awkward. The Palm VII is an interesting idea but it forces you to read web pages in a form that is extremely reduced and a bit difficult to navigate.

    My only big concern about the new PocketPC devices is that they are still somewhat expensive (about US$500). They should release a backlit monochrome LCD version for around $299--and that will become a viable competitor for Palm devices.

    Actually, the Handspring Visor's expandability is great, but finding one is a bit difficult. :-(

  • Yeah, that's the ticket (Score:4)

    by FascDot Killed My Pr ( 24021 ) on Friday April 21, 2000 @03:30AM (#1120008)
    Palm Prez: Hey, Sales, how are we doing?
    Palm Sales: Through the roof boss. Our sales outstrip all other PDA's put together.
    Palm Prez: That's great news. Hey Marketing, how can we keep this trend going?
    Palm Mark: I have a great idea! What we're doing now is working so well, it obviously needs to be changed! Let's do what our weakest competitor is doing and slow down our software while making the batteries wear out faster! It's working for Microsoft!
    --

  • Wrong ideas... (Score:5)

    by pen ( 7191 ) on Friday April 21, 2000 @03:30AM (#1120009)
    I don't see why people see these things as Palm competition... They are exactly what they say they are - pocket PC's. Exactly what Palms are not.

    A Palm is a small device which was designed to fit into your pocket and always be with you. It was designed so that you rarely have to worry about batteries or the OS crashing. OTOH, the WinCE devices were designed to play MP3's, MPEG's, and generally to be impress-the-chicks devices. They're bigger, they will not last for more than a day or two on the batteries, and (even CNet agrees) the OS will often crash.

    (While there are reports of WinCE being stable, it seems to be the same as NT - depends on luck. At work, the NT box I use has a 5-week up time. At home, the NT box will always freeze after a week. (As you can see, I'm not a 100% *nix guy.)) The article linked in the Slashdot post will tell you the rest... :)

    --

  • More thoughts from a Palm user (Score:5)

    by DGregory ( 74435 ) on Friday April 21, 2000 @03:43AM (#1120010) Homepage
    I own a Palm IIIx and I have a close friend of mine who owns a Casseopeia (which model I can't remember). I couldn't talk him into getting a Palm, he's into flash and "cool" factor.

    He likes it because he can watch the Star Wars trailer on it (even though 1. he's seen the trailer a billion times and 2. it is EXTREMELY slow to transfer from his computer and his Casseopeia). He loves the fact that he can listen to mp3s on it, and he doesn't mind sticking it on the charger every night.

    So, of course I got to play around with it. I found the device really heavy to hold. He's got a little belt holder to stick it in. It's quite a bit thicker than my Palm IIIx, and probably twice as heavy. I just don't find it to be the kind of thing that's easy to carry around. I keep my Palm in my purse and replace the batteries every couple months. I also have a REALLY hard time keeping my cell phone charged, I know that if I had a Casseopeia or even a Palm V, It'd be constantly running out of battery power.

    I did find the interface on the Casseopeia to be clunky, and Jot wasn't terribly easy to use (about as easy as Graffiti was to learn... easy enough if you sit down and learn how, but just picking up the stylus with no training on Jot, there was really no way.) Of course his was running WinCE, and I don't think he's had it crash on him.

    My one concern about the fact that the Win devices constantly sync with the computer is, what if I want to replace the info on the computer with the stuff from the device? With the Palm, you stick it in the cradle (without fear of anything happening cause you haven't pressed the button yet), and set how you want the sync to go, then press the button. I haven't tried syncing a Win device, but that's the impression that I got.

    Good things about Casseopeia/WinCE:
    1) Multimedia
    2) NICE full color!!
    3) more screen space

    Bad things (IMHO) about Casseopeia/WinCE:
    1) HEAVY
    2) Clunky interface - slow to find things
    3) Battery life
    4) Multimedia has only cool factor, no real utility factor, not practical
    5) Not very easy to tote around (thickness, large size)

    I guess it depends on what's most important to you. Some people like flash and glitz even though there aren't too many practical uses for the flash and glitz (kind of like being the only person on the internet. :) I use the Palm for addresses and phone numbers, directions to places, and notes like the flight number & time of when my flight is. And games for when I'm stuck in traffic or sitting on a bus. My friend uses his Casseopeia for those same things plus showing people the multimedia so they can go OOOOHHHH. I don't think there's enough positives about the devices to merit junking the Palm IIIx just so I can show off something cool to people.

    Oh yeah.... whatever happened to the whole "Windows Powered" idea?? Did they scrap it for Pocket PC or is the "Windows Powered" going to be something else?

  • Response from Palm (Score:5)

    by BigTed ( 78942 ) on Friday April 21, 2000 @03:39AM (#1120011)
    Here's a copy of Palm's response to the PocketPC sent out to the Palm Delevepers Group [palm.com]. Basically they're not worried. They've had the Palm is dead line before .

    Dear Palm Solution Providers:

    We've received some questions from the Palm economy regarding what we think about the new version of Windows CE, which Microsoft calls Pocket PC. We expect that Microsoft will make a very big launch event and advertising campaign starting April 19, just as they did with the last version of Windows CE.

    Just like last time, some industry analysts will announce that Palm is dead, because Microsoft's handheld has more PC features than Palm handhelds. And just like last time, when the smoke clears we think Palm will still be on top.

    We don't ever underestimate a competitor, though. The market is too competitive and changes too fast. Besides, there's no question that Windows CE is less unpleasant than it used to be. So we'll continue to work hard to tell Palm's story, including the amazing array of great software and hardware products that you bring to the Palm platform.

    Now that we're a public company, we have very aggressive plans to drive the long-term growth of the Palm platform. We'll be revealing more about those plans in the next several months. And in the meantime, we think we have a great story to tell about Palm and our partners today. Here's some of the information we'll be distributing. You'll see this reflected in new and more aggressive marketing campaigns this summer. If you get questions about Palm's competitiveness, we encourage you to pass this information along. And we'd like to hear from you if you have comments on this memo, or ideas on things that we could do better.

    Please email your comments and suggestions to devinfo@palm.com with "Pocket PC feedback" in the subject title.

    Thanks very much for your support of the Palm family.

    Michael Mace
    VP, Product Strategy
    Palm, Inc.

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