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Handhelds Hardware

Microsoft Pits Pocket PC Against Palm 310

Posted by Hemos from the trying-to-fight-the-master dept.
DeepDarkSky writes "Microsoft unveiled the Pocket PC today. Products being available by its partners include: HP Jornada, Compaq iPaq H3600, Casio Cassiopeia E-105 and Symbol PPT 2700. Microsoft's touting it as being better than Palm. Here's a list of features, significant among them: Microsoft Reader (for reading e-books), Windows Media Player (for playing music), Pocket Streets (a map program), Pocket Internet Explorer, and "Pocket" versions of office productivity tools like Outlook, Word, and Excel. " Check out the preview on C|Net as well.
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Microsoft Pits Pocket PC Against Palm More

Microsoft Pits Pocket PC Against Palm

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  • Palm vs. CE, and the DOJ (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    My company has around 10-15 Palm users out of 70 staff, 2 Psion users and 2 CE owners - of the CE users, one uses his device (a handheld PC with keyboard) regularly, and the other one has given up on his (a palm-sized CE device). All the Palms seem to be heavily used, and one Psion user has recently switched to Palm because it has better syncing softare. As a result, the sales department has now standardised on Palm's.

    The main reason seems to be that the Palm just works and is very simple to use with minimum effort - particularly if you sync it to a networked PIM such as Exchange. The long battery life is a key issue - my mobile phone is always running out of juice, but I've never been caught short with my Palm.

    The Palm does occasionally crash, perhaps once every few weeks to few months, which is a pain, but only with certain third party applications. The last major crash I had was when I dropped it on a concrete floor, for which it can be forgiven I think!

    Microsoft's Pocket PC comparison is very careful to say 'out of box experience' is compared - this is because there are third party applications available for most of the things that Pocket PC bundles, i.e. web browsers, email programs, Word/Excel viewing (or Excel editing for that matter), PDF viewing, street maps, and so on.

    If Microsoft was charging the market price for this software, would it still be possible to sell these devices at the same price? Or is it using its deep pockets to fund entry into another market segment? For example, some of the packages above cost $50 or so on the Palm (the more complete ones - some are free or $10). Answers on a postcard to the DOJ, please :)

  • I don't have time for apologists. (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Or, do you want a device that is a gameboy, cellphone, MP3 player, memo pad, PDA, camcorder, phaser :), etc. all in one slim form factor?

    No. I want to have a single display device (probably similar to eyeglasses) which connects to my computing device using a standard local wireless network.

    Most of all, I don't want a device which crashes even once, ever. I have work to do and fun to have; I don't want to be frustrated by my equipment. I don't want to curse Microsoft. It should just work.

    This is why I had my company buy me a Palm instead of a ultralight.

  • Microsoft Innovation (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Microsoft may be giving away its handheld devices along with MS Reader with the purchase of any new PC with Windows 2k preinstalled, or so I hear. These new devices can only transfer data to and from Win 2k. I hear that it will even be possible to rent books from your local library (which will be running a Win 2k network) in the MS Reader format, and that the books will automatically stop loading when the due date is reached, so that delinquent users will have an incentive to check them back in! (The library pays a fee per 2 week checkout period to MS for this service, with the book's author getting an royalty from EACH reader!) See, MS is not restricting, but enhancing, the flow of information, while also rewarding authors who have been poorly compensated by traditinal publishers in the past and improving our community infrastructure!

    While the rest stand still, MS continues to innovate. MS has encouraged rapid growth of the Internet with its IE Browser giveaway - remember when browsers used to cost $30 or more? MS has given the world more free software than all of so called "open source" combined! It has truly democratized the Internet for millions of average people everwhere, so it is not just a thing for geeks to use to send cryptic messages in plain text back and forth to each other.

    MS will never be heavily penalized by the US government! After last week's stock market scare, people all over are realizing that this was due to just one thing - a finding of guilt against MS. Investors feared that innovation would be stifled and that economic growth would stop if MS is handicapped by any kind of legal penalty for things that happened years ago, and rightly so! Bill Clinton and others got the message, and that gets passed along. The American public properly understands and appreciates the source of its prosperity, innovation deriving form Miscosoft.

    Let this be a lesson to all who doubt!

  • The real reason why Palm is winning... (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    And it's BRAND NAME RECOGNITION.

    I always find these comparisons funny, because they never get to the root of the situation. Instead it's like jusification after the fact.

    Palm is winning for the same reason that Windows won on the desktop, because everybody else has it.

    The Palm was the first PDA that came out that let people synchronize up with their Outlook calendar, and later email.

    It was the synchronization feature that sold everybody on the concept.

    But it is the brand regonition that sells everybody on the Palm. WinCE synchs too, it is actually much superior to the Palm in this regard, but that doesn't matter.

    Most of these devices are purchased by business people, executives, sales, etc. One thing that they all have in common is, they want to be the same as everybody else.

    They buy the same brandname clothes, the same cars, the same everything. Being different is not a quality they admire.

    Even if the PocketPC had been available in 1997 and I had showed it to those executives. They would have been clamoring for that Palm. And why? Because that's what Joe has over in accounting.
  • And I won't be surprised when these fail to capture much of Palm's marketshare either. Windows simply does not translate well to a handheld environment. It may work passably well on the desktop, but -- and I'm not the first or the most influential person to say this -- the Windows look and feel falters on devices that are this small. Windows CE is still trying to be all things for all devices (cell phones, set-top boxes, and now these things -- can't fool me, it's still CE.) The Palm OS design, on the other hand, was built specifically for Palm-sized computers and the design simply _works better_.

    So it can play MP3s. Show me something nowadays that _can't_.

    - A.P.
    --


    "One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad

  • The Handspring Visor has an MP3 module available for it. It's tiny. And it plays MP3s. It's also about $100.

    - A.P.
    --


    "One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad

  • I wouldn't buy a MS product, but they have the right idea by putting mini versions of the MS apps right on the thing. It ticked me off thoroughly to learn that Palm's idea of sw add-ons was to push a mountain of shareware at you and say "good luck!" You mean I paid $400 for this Palm Vx and I can't put a simple database on it without schlepping another $24.95 to some nearly anonymous company in West Podunk? (And which West Podunk company should I deal with anyway?)

    The next question will be: can I drop Office 2000 off a cliff and just use the mini-versions on "normal" PCs? Maybe then the bloat will settle.

  • Seeing how the Palm does great Wireless networking (802.11b) -- (yeah, right) and how great the Web capabilities are, I think one offers more than the other.

    Wireless Ethernet works only for few hundreds feet -- it means that you are in the same building with your network, and you need such a speed only to so something time/resource-consuming anyway, so for things like that small laptop/notebook will be a better choice, (I have vaio n505vx with wireless ethernet). However if you need to do something remotely where "remote" is another building (or city), it won't be of any use -- you need a cellular or cellular-like radiomodem. All versions of Palm support those things pretty well (VII has builtin wireless networking, but I prefer III{"",x,c} with faster Metricom modem) -- and when I need to use a notebook at some remote location I can just connect the same Metricom modem to it.

    Another problem with wireless networking is power that it requires. Those things eat a lot, and unless separate power supply is used for them, it has a good chance to drain the battery very fast. PalmVII and everything that involves external radiomodem use separate battery for wireless networking, but I am not sure that WinCE/Palm PC/Pocket PC/whatever have enough space inside for a separate battery that powers PCMCIA/CardBus cards -- so the only real alternative to keeping wireless networking disabled is having an external power supply attached. Oops, that completely negates the point of having a PDA with wireless networking, and it's easier just to carry a notebook that has big enough battery to support radio Ethernet.

  • Proxiweb is a real browser -- it requests pages through proxy that re-formats them into a format, readable by the client running on the Palm, so even though it doesn't parse HTML on the Palm, result is the same. I use it for things like searching for products specs while at the store (which of cards is supported under Linux?, what chipset is in this thing?, etc.), maps from mapblast.com (using coordinates of the nearest retransmitter taken from Metricom modem), etc.
  • Nope. They are just expanding to places where they weren't present or successful before (like cancer). X-box is a renamed PC, and Pocket PC is a renamed Palm PC that uses their Windows CE, that happened to be an application of Windows design and GUI ideas to completely different idea and market.
  • Even CNET advises to be prepared for some crashes. I can't think of a single time my Palm Personal has crashed, other than the times I've dropped it accidently.

    Frankly trying to shoehorn Windows onto a handheld is about as useful as putting Linux there.

  • I've owned and used Psion machines since 1993, including a current Series 5MX.

    EPOC/32 is decidedly not an alternative to PalmOS (although the Quartz demo -- EPOC/32 on a colour handwriting-type PDA a la Palm -- might well be if/when they ship it).

    EPOC/32 is a great OS, handicapped by the fact that Psion Software (note: not the same company, but part of the same group -- Psion's internal corporate structure is confusing to outsiders) seem congenitally incapable of comprehending the idea that people might want to use it in conjunction with any OS other than Windows. For example, the Psion Word import/export filters are built into the PsiWin app that runs under Win95/98/NT, and there is no native import/export. They don't even publish file formats; the EPOC/32 apps are based on an OO stream-store system implemented in C++ and accessible only via an API available using their Windows development toolchain.

    EPOC/32 basically ties Psion to Microsoft's apron strings -- a really foolish place for Psion to be, and only partially mitigated by their Symbian scheme. There are signs of them wising up about the need for EPOC/32 to be a general-purpose OS, but right now it's an obligate peripheral to a Windows box, just like CE.

    (Finally, EPOC/32 does too take whole seconds to boot! And I've had crashes. But maybe it's just sensing my innate hostility to anything so Microsoft-friendly ;-)

  • Still, I think that MS has little chance in this arena because the palm already controls 70% of the PDA market and the Palm OS does what it does so well.

    Kinda like Netscape in the web browser market?

  • Isn't it ironic, that the same market forces that are making it difficult to unseat Windows on the desktop (primarily, the network effect, along with the fact that people tend to stick with what they know) are preventing Windows from making it on the palmtop?

    Microsoft doesn't know how to win over a market sector by making a better product. They only know how to steal a market sector by chaining a product to Office or Windows. That being impossible in the palmtop market, they don't stand a chance, unless they shipped a free Pocket PC with every copy of Windows. Hehe ... "Well, sure it's portable, and you can take it anywhere, but it's an integrated part of the operating system and we can't just remove it!"

    --
  • The first two aren't web browsers, they're web clipping systems. In what sense aren't they web browsers? You attach a modem to them, you can surf the web. I regularly read Slashdot through a wireless modem on my palm pilot. Although I'm not sure about Avantgo, I am aware that Proxiweb handles images, encryption, form submission, cookies, and limited javascript. If you consider lynx to be a web browser, I don't believe there is any grounds to consider these soley web-clipping systems, on a purely functional sense.
    Of course, both of these systems require a special proxy server (free service) to reduce the complexity of html/images. Perhaps this is the limitation you are refering to?

    --
  • A slight difference is that the PDA has your entire life on it - appointments, contact numbers, and so on - so it's hardly practical to lend it to someone for a week or two while they read the book...
  • Palm does need to get its act together on extras - most of the Pocket PC bundled features are available as addons (e.g. the TRG Pro is a Palm clone that has a CompactFlash slot, so it can support the IBM Microdrive I guess), but adding them all is a pain for someone who wants a simple tool.

    I think there is a market for high-end work+leisure PDAs - i.e. including MP3 player, good colour graphics for photos grabbed from digital cameras, good reader software, etc (by the way, see http://www.grc.com/ for details on the lack of innovation in Microsoft's ClearType technology for clearer text on colour LCDs - used in Apple II if not earlier).

    I'd like to see a better OS: perhaps the mobile phone manufacturers, who are all going for Psion's (now Symbian's) EPOC OS, may do this. EPOC is 32 bit, threaded, and so on, and may be a good way of hosting the PalmOS (Nokia is likely to do this according to a story last year) - so you can run the thousands of PalmOS applications and still have the oomph to process voice calls, Internet data exchange, MP3 playing, and maybe even video.
  • Actually Windows CE is (and always has been) 'new rope' - the only thing it shares with Windows on PCs is the Win32 API, and in fact it uses a subset of the full API.

    WinCE is not going to get much embedded market share IMO until it gets more reliable.
  • Win2000 already broke IrDA usage - the IrCOMM protocol (basically telnet-equivalent over IrDA) doesn't work at all, allegedly because of difficulties with serial port locking. Strange that Unix has managed to do serial port locking for 30 or so years.

    IrCOMM is used by anyone wanting to talk to their GSM mobile phone's built-in modem, e.g. if you want your nice new Win2000 laptop to talk to the Internet.
  • Anyone notice that all the shots of apps running on these things all had titlebars on them? Hell, some of them have titlebars and status bars. While the palm pilot silkscreened area is annoying, at least they designed their interface for a tiny screen. MS meanwhile just shoehorned the windows interface into a PDA, with no thought to space economy.

    And they damn well better have improved ActiveSync (aka ActiveStink) before I even consider getting one of these.

  • First thing to note, comparison based on out-of-box. That means none of the add-ons are considered at all. Let me go through and comment each with add-ons included.

    Full Email: They list "No" for the Palm. Multimail Pro provides it, so I consider that a Yes if I ever wanted to do email on a palm sized computer. Of course we're talking Pocket Outlook Express here. Considering the Deja [deja.com] poll on email clients has OE in the middle of the pack with the only two clients I recommend (PMMail [blueprintsoftware.com] and The Bat! [ritlabs.com] topping the list chances are I'd look for third party email even if I were going to.

    Web-Browsing: Well, considering the resolution (320x240) there aren't many sites that will come across looking decent in the first place. On a palm sized computer I prefer only snippits and text. IE, content instead of fluff. This is doubly true when you consider the bandwidth restrictions of wireless communications.

    AvantGo: Was a pig on the Palm, most likely a pig on MS's stuff and, IMHO, not worth a damn. I get more use out of iSiloFree and their web convertor for a fraction of AvantGo's space.

    Color: Hope the sun isn't out, right? :)

    Memory: 16-32Mb given. This is MS, something tells me 24Mb of it would be needed just to store everything they want to shoehorn in there leaving 8Mb, what the Palm offers. :)

    Speed: Up to 206Mhz compared to the Palm's 20Mhz. Of course, all the MS applications aren't coded as tight as Palm applications so they feel like it is 20Mhz. Honestly, I have a Palm IIIe that I have used Afterburner II to slow-down to save on battery life. I normally run at 13Mhz compared to the normal 16Mhz and it is fine. Most of the time the machine is idling anyway. Isn't like we've got RC5 going in the background.

    Expansion Slot: Welll, ok, they got it there, maybe.

    Sync: "Always ready to go with ActiveSync!" Like, ActiveX? ActiveDesktop? Uhm, I dunno about you but me, I'm fine with pushing a single button.

    USB connection: Aaand? USB may be nice but I've not really worried over a sync before.

    IrDA: No comment

    Handwriting Recognition: OK, everyone who can't read their own handwriting please raise their hands. Grey raises his hand. I like Graffiti because it is easy. Microsoft really is going for the lazy people here. "No more buttons to press, don't have to learn an input system that 90% resembles what you write anyway!"

    Voice Recording: Why? With 32Mb you can barely cram anything into that of any value. Besides, there are add-ons for the Palm that allow this.

    On-Board Financial Software: Wow, Money for PocketPC included. Works with Microsoft Money 2000. I use Quicken 2000 and PocketQuicken on my Palm. Wow, imagine that.

    Mapping Software: "Clarity of maps confined to low resolution screens." 160x160 compared to 320x240. Both of those, to me, are low resolution. Besides, those same low resolution screens work fine on specialized GPS devices for years now. I don't need the extra space for an effing animated streetsign (2nd cousin to the paperclip) to tell me to turn left now. One back-seat driver will be quite enough, thank you. Needless to say there are several applications for the Palm that provide this as well as several GPS modules for the Palm.

    Play MP3s: "No need to carry an additional MP3 player". Pocket PC, 32Mb. Rio, IIRC, 96Mb. There is a reason why I don't want my Palm to do MP3s, the specialized device does it better.

    Text reader: iSilo, Peanut Press, DOC format (dozens of readers there) TealDOC, etc, etc, etc

    Animated Games: The whole reason I started writing this. First off, I hate the corpspeak "experience". "A wonderful web experience!" "A great gaming experience!" "That new Star Trek show furthers the TV experience!" Get over it, it isn't an experience, it is a game. Furthermore, I guess Zap 2000! doesn't count as an animated game. What comes standard with the Palm PC that is awesome? Solitaire and Minesweeper? Definintely have to look add-on here in both cases.

  • When questioned as to exactly why it's better than the wildly successful Palm, and why it's better than the dismal failure WinCE, Microsoft Marketdroid #THX1138 replied:

    "Because it's got PC in the name."

    Then three guys in black trenchcoats grabbed the questioner and hauled him out back. Scanner listeners at the same time heard this exchange, filtered through Microsoft's proprietary new encryption routine:

    "eWay aveHay imHay"

    "oopWhay isHay amnDay assay"

  • Many years ago, someone in Japan had a 'wonderful' idea: create a standard for 'home computers' that allowed them to interoperate even if they were built by different vendors. The times were really different form now, and very little people did buy 'computers', mainly because you had to become a programmer to use them beyond the 'crappy game console' point.
    They thought: "with interoperability and support from over 15 vendors, some of them called Sony, Philips, Matsushita, we can't fail!".
    Almost. At the end, the MSX standard wasn't so bad (comparatively better than what WinCE is today) but... they shared a limited market base between 15+ manufacturers, and made so little money that after 2 years and an aborted MSX2, they closed shop. All 15 of them.

    Now, could this suggest something to Microsoft? They have a new product for a little-more-than-niche market, and are trying to convince the people actually building the devices that they'll somehow make profits. Where? In a market were, between Palm and Symbian/Epoc, there is less than 10% of remaining space? And where the wast majority of the potential PDA user base are NOT going to believe they marketing/FUD tactics because they know enough to 'see the truth'?
    MS do hope that their Windows user base will run to Pocket PC, but this will never happen: they are barely able to use a windows PC when they have to (work, school), and have no desire to buy another one to have the hassle always with them.

    I'm wondering why HP, Compaq & Co. accepted the 'deal' and tried again. I think that the answer could be very interesting for judge Jackson, too.

    Ciao, Rob!
  • However... "Handwriting Recognition" really worries me. I used it in Apple's Newton and was not impressed at all with it. I don't think MS' HW recognition works any better (I haven't tried it yet though but I draw this from my experiences with lots of HW Recognition packages). Graffiti will be more reliable at the long run since it is very easily recognizable by the software and mismatch rate (i.e. recognizing 8 when you wrote B) is extremely low.

    I have a Newton 130 and liked the HW recoginition when I first got it, but it became cumbersome and prone to error when your hand got tired. Guess what I did? I bought Graffiti (this was back when Palm was a software developer for Newton). Graffiti made the Newton HWR work soooo much better.

  • Your posting is succinct and right on the nail, Tom. I've no moderator points today, but if I may quote you, you can benefit from my karma whoring (moderators: please moderate up the original post, not this blatant rip off).

    Just for fun...

    The Microsoft Advantage

    Windows is the standard
    - Windows has more than 75% market share worldwide,
    - Windows has more software programs, 10-50 times more than any other platform.
    - Windows is supported by the leaders in enterprise software, including Oracle, Siebel, SAP, Lawson, Sun,and Sybase.

    Just can not abide with the tone of Palm's response.

    I hate Microsoft. Never use it. Ever. Nothing from them infects my hdd. But, Palm is parrotting Microsoft's PC marketing message. None of this matters. I could give a crap about the number of software titles...Are they any good? This is used against Mac users constantly, but I have no trouble finding enough (too much, actually) software to run. This whole "standard" thing too pisses me off. This gets used vs. Linux constantly by PHBs. So fscking what if it won't run Office. There are options, some of which work better.

    Makes me sick to see Palm ape Microspeak.

    Tom Dutton

    I was going to get a Palm. Now I'm going to get a PocketPC instead. That poor little piece of Marketing propaganda just made it inevitable.

    Consciousness is not what it thinks it is
    Thought exists only as an abstraction

  • I will be up front in this, I own a Palm IIIx. So here, my view is a little biased. Still, I think that MS has little chance in this arena because the palm already controls 70% of the PDA market and the Palm OS does what it does so well.

    I admit that it would be neat if my Palm had the capability to play MP3's and had color (like the IIIc) - But I don't need it. I use my Palm as a organizer, and a E book. It does these things very well. Sure, the new features are nice (like the Ebook reader) but again, MS is missing the point of a PDA.

    It is, first and foremost, an organizer. Everything else is secondary to this. Palm spent a good deal of time optimizing their interface for the "tap number" to make them easy and fast to use. For anyone who has used a CE device (and I have) you realize just how much they behave like windows... EXACTLY like Windows. Try using the search function on a CE device and then try it on a Palm, you should notice a signifigant difference in speed.

    The idea that MS has that people want the interface on their PDA to be a windows one is not a bad idea, but its not great either. The Windows interface was simply not designed with a PDA in mind. The Palm OS was.

    In fact, upon refection I think that MANY GUI's could learn a thing or two from the Palm. I have been working with computers for some time, and I have yet to see a GUI that has been as intuitive to use as the one on a Palm. Everyone that I show my Palm to masters the interface quickly (although not the grafitti). I have seen people struggle with the "standard" Windows interface for YEARS, never mind the looks that they give me when they see Gnome running E and my themes... But I digress.

    The Palm OS has IMO become the standard, much as Win9X has become the standard OS on 90% of PC's. You don't need to have WinCE on a PDA, and Palm OS is easier to use. I think that the people have already spoken. The Palm has already won this battle.
  • Yeah, I bought a WinCE-based Nino. Pretty impressive unit, for about a week. Slightly larger than a PalmIII.

    Slow, crashes, little storage memory (app bloat), slow, cumbersome GUI (scaled down Outlook), slow, "What do you mean I have to close an app to add a new appointment? All that's running is the Calendar and the Address Book!!", oh and did I mention SLOW?

    No thanks Microsoft. A PalmVx running at half the speed will do nicely, thank you. So I can't look at a video clip in 16-bit color, so what? Why would I do that on a PDA?

    Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. And just because someone else almost did, doesn't mean you must. Then again - seeing ANOTHER MS gimick do a face-plant might be entertaining. Remember Bob?

  • Note the emphasis on software that uses proprietary interchange formats (Microsoft Reader, Microsoft Media Player), so that no one will be able to compete compatably. Microsoft knows exactly what they are doing. You can bet your ass they are making 'strategic agreements' with content providers to make sure that many things are available only in these formats. (Remember that Steven King couldn't even read his own book!)

    The next few years are going to be painful.


    ---
  • Whill this be a real PC, or just like the WinCE-machines? I.e., will it be an x86 device with normal hardware, just like any portable x86 machine?
    That dictates how hard it will be to port Linux to it. If it is a full-featured machine w/ MMU, I don't see any reason not to port Linux to it. SO, then, the only thing missing is handwriting support in Gtk and Qt...
    --The knowledge that you are an idiot, is what distinguishes you from one.
  • Here is the link to the thread http://slashdot.org/comm ents.pl?sid=00/04/18/237234&cid=42 [slashdot.org]. I guess the editors don't read the actual discussions to see what people are talking about ;o)
    ---
  • It's called competition. If no other pda devices existed besides the Palm, everyone would be screaming evil empire, and the justice department would be on them as soon as they finished with microsoft.
  • So, seriously, can one install the new software onto an old WinCE machine?

    That would have been a very nice feature, for those who have invested in the older hardware/software...

    Can't see anything in the FAQ at Microsoft's site... will look more at some other sites though

    Anyone have any info?

    -AS
  • I don't think so. Not when PDAs are approaching the price points of TVs...

    Do you ever hear the complaint that there are too many kinds of TVs with different features? Trinitron, ultra-flat, HDTV, PIP, auto-scan, etc?

    It's not glutting the market. The market isn't even very well defined yet, so all these different PDAs will help define the market.

    Though I do suspect that what happens is that 80% of the market will consolidate around 4 PDAs using the PalmOS.

    Sony will replace their remote controls with a PalmOS device, that will also happen to play their digital music format, use the memory stick, connect to the PSX2 via USB, and generally focus around their consumer network. We might also see PalmOS inside camcorders and cameras.

    Palm itself has the business PDA locked tight. Or Handspring.

    Apple might have itself a kids/general PDA. Bright, colorful, fun. Use it to interface with the Macs and the wireless network. Perhaps a client of Mac networking software, it will give them access to Quicktime movies, music, the internet(and search engines), etc.

    Someone will come out with a Gameboy type Palm. Or Nintendo will. For gaming, music, movies. Perhaps it won't even be a handheld! A monocle, an earbud, a microphone, all connected together via BlueTooth, where the PDA itself is just a small pager like device that accepts a CD the size of a quarter. Or a IBM microdrive.

    If not Sony, then someone else a PalmOS camera/camcorder, IBM microDrive for storage, mp3-like software to encode voice through the microphone, mpeg encoding for the video, in something the size of a pack of cards. The lens should be the biggest component, and then the LCD display. Oh, and power.

    So no, I don't think there is a glut. Just plenty of spaces for handheld devices to grow

    -AS
  • Somehow my post got scored redundant(fine, perhaps it is...)

    But then chacal's <a href="http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=00/04/19 /1733239&cid=157">reply</a> to me also gets moderated as redundant...

    It's not as if we're trying to burn karma points here. Especially since I'm not seeing anything above it that's asking the same question or getting answers...

    Of course, then there's the strangeness that Slashdot is not even showing me any of the posts of 2 or so. Is there something screwy going on with Slashdot right now?

    -AS
  • Well... the specs certainly look impressive and the feature list is many times better than that of Palm. This will definetely give Palm run for its money.

    However... "Handwriting Recognition" really worries me. I used it in Apple's Newton and was not impressed at all with it. I don't think MS' HW recognition works any better (I haven't tried it yet though but I draw this from my experiences with lots of HW Recognition packages). Graffiti will be more reliable at the long run since it is very easily recognizable by the software and mismatch rate (i.e. recognizing 8 when you wrote B) is extremely low.

    Also, what is the stability of this new MS operating system (which is nothing but new WinCE)? If it crashes a lot... forget it. I prefer having less but more stable set of features.

    --
    GroundAndPound.com [groundandpound.com] News and info for martial artists of all styles.
  • This was in my email this morning. It is from the Palm Developers mailing list. I had to laugh because, well, Michael Mace hits it right on the head! Ya gotta like a guy who tells it like it is.

    Dear Palm Solution Providers:

    We've received some questions from the Palm economy regarding what we think about the new version of Windows CE, which Microsoft calls Pocket PC. We expect that Microsoft will make a very big launch event and advertising campaign starting April 19, just as they did with the last version of Windows CE.

    Just like last time, some industry analysts will announce that Palm is dead, because Microsoft's handheld has more PC features than Palm handhelds. And just like last time, when the smoke clears we think Palm will still be on top.

    We don't ever underestimate a competitor, though. The market is too competitive and changes too fast. Besides, there's no question that Windows CE is less unpleasant than it used to be. So we'll continue to work hard to tell Palm's story, including the amazing array of great software and hardware products that you bring to the Palm platform.

    Now that we're a public company, we have very aggressive plans to drive the long-term growth of the Palm platform. We'll be revealing more about those plans in the next several months. And in the meantime, we think we have a great story to tell about Palm and our partners today. Here's some of the information we'll be distributing. You'll see this reflected in new and more aggressive marketing campaigns this summer. If you get questions about Palm's competitiveness, we encourage you to pass this information along. And we'd like to hear from you if you have comments on this memo, or ideas on things that we could do better.

    Please email your comments and suggestions to devinfo@palm.com with "Pocket PC feedback" in the subject title.

    Thanks very much for your support of the Palm family.

    Michael Mace
    VP, Product Strategy
    Palm, Inc.

    I was wondering something though. Will the Pocket PC come with a billiards game?
  • I thought it was a pretty intelligent move on Microsoft's part to incorporate Media Player (which is actually pretty good on Windows) into PocketPC. After all, that's a great technology for consumers that Palm can't easily duplicate. But then I stopped and thought: even the heaviest PDAs have at most 32 megs of memory, much of which will already be consumed by the OS (especially for a Windows-based one), applications, and real work. So that leave, what, 16 megs in which to store your movies?
    This will be a key feature, say, two years down the line when technologies like the memory stick expand their storage capabilities and gain widespread acceptance. Until then, just a novelty. . .
  • I can see why they want to get into these lucrative markets, but essentially they're trying to get money for old rope. If M$ really want to corner the embedded OS market I'm sure they could, provided they make a new product for it - but they're not going to conquer the PDA market (or, for that matter, the games console market) with the latest version of DOS.

    But DOS is a somewhat popular OS for x86 based embedded systems. A lot of the ads in Circuit Cellar are for 386 and 486 based single board computer running DOS usually with a Flash ROM instead of a hard drive.

  • I just got ActiveSync 3.1 working great with my Cassio 105. And I think you can at least get the Maps working. I don't know about the rest, but the Media Player is already there...
  • May I ask why one would want to remove the reader?Considering it doesn't free one up any space. If you want, there is also nothing stoping you from downloading books in both HTML and TXT to read. Heck, you can even use RTF if you felt like it.
  • ... people still argue over Windows CE versus Palm. I own a Casio E-100 (WinCE), Palm IIIx, and a IBM WorkPad Z50. Each one has positive and negative points.

    They ALL make fine tools for keeping track of personal data and doing simple tasks. This is why you bought one, right?

    Okay, so a search takes a little longer on the Casio than the Palm. It'll take you longer to reply to this post than the extra time you'll spend doing 1000 searches. The Palm doesn't play MP3s, which I find convenient, but it's smaller and cheaper. And so on and so on.

    In the end, get the one that fits how *YOU* will use it and stop trying to justify your purchase publicly. Just enjoy your gizmo and think, no matter how slow the search is, it sure beats hunting though paper.
  • Handwriting recognition: I _hate_ Graffiti. Produces too many errors and it's not flexible enough. By all accounts, Jot and Calligraphy are better.

    Resolution: I wouldn't object to haveing a bigger screen, and CE boxes have screens three times the resolution. Plus, the writing area isn't fixed like the Palm, it's just another part of the screen. So, if you're not writing you can reclaim the space, and the virtual keyboard takes up the same amount of space as the handwriting pad.

    Voic recording: it's designed for quick notes and it compresses. You can get quite a bit into that much memory and I'd like that featuer on my Palm. Except I can't without effectively strapping a separate machine on.

    Play MP3s: Perhaps I don't want to carry _another_ little box around. I'd love one of those Symbian Quartz prototypes, simply as I don't much like carrying round a Palm and a phone when there's clear overlap.

    I don't dispute that Palms are nice, or that WinCE as was has problems. But there's an awful lot that's very nice about those machines and if they'd only get a sane person to redo that UI, I'd want one.
  • ... when you need a 200mhz chip, for web browsing, mp3 playing, editing and organizing information. I know.. I know.. "MS isn't producting the product..." but encouraging the manufacturers to use higher end hardware doesn't make things cheaper. Windows2000 anyone?

    ---
  • I always liked the winCE hardware. The color, the built in periferals (namely mics, real speakers, and real ports). I just hated the software. Looking at the new hardware that lusting continues. However I still don't like the software. I will admit though that this new software looks much better. If I was Palm or Handspring I'd be afraid of this thing. I'd improve my hardware (Similar to the way Handspring has done, but only with standard pcmica cards, not those handspring modules).
  • Once again... Microsoft bigotry on a slashdot forum... what a surprise! First of all, I've owned both, a PALM IIIx, and a Cassiopeia E-105. I love my E-105 and never use my IIIx any longer. I can't believe this post was moderated up to three already...

    >>> Full Email: They list "No" for the Palm. Multimail Pro provides it, so I consider that a Yes if I ever wanted to do email on a palm sized computer. Of course we're talking Pocket Outlook Express here. Considering the Deja poll on email clients has OE in the middle of the pack with the only two clients I recommend (PMMail and The Bat! topping the list chances are I'd look for third party email even if I were going to.

    Multimail Pro? Is this a Palm V thing? Or is this an addon? I thought we weren't comparing add-ons... If this is an addon, it's rather unfair to consider add-ons for the Palm but not for the PocketPC device.

    >>>> Web-Browsing: Well, considering the resolution (320x240) there aren't many sites that will come across looking decent in the first place. On a palm sized computer I prefer only snippits and text. IE, content instead of fluff. This is doubly true when you consider the bandwidth restrictions of wireless communications.

    Ok, Let's take this once piece at a time. Guess what, there are websites around that are made for these devices and most of them have more content then fluff. However, if I need to color coded heating diagram of a house, guess which device screws me over? Who are you to determine what's content and what's fluff? I have a friend who does security installations... blueprints of homes are not fluff even though their images. If you consider it fluff, don't download it... at least with the PocketPC device you HAVE that option.

    >>>>> AvantGo: Was a pig on the Palm, most likely a pig on MS's stuff and, IMHO, not worth a damn. I get more use out of iSiloFree and their web convertor for a fraction of AvantGo's space.

    Why are we comparing an addon? I take it's MS's fault that AvantGo is bloated, right?

    >>>>> Color: Hope the sun isn't out, right? :)

    Wow, we really have to do our research don't we? The new PocketPC devices have light sensors that detect ambient light accordingly. Can your Palm IIIc do that?

    >>>>> Memory: 16-32Mb given. This is MS, something tells me 24Mb of it would be needed just to store everything they want to shoehorn in there leaving 8Mb, what the Palm offers. :)

    Becuase the Palm offers a multimedia, multitasking OS, correct? And frankly, the PocketPC OS is on ROM so guess what... come on.. guess... That's right, it TAKES NO MEMORY! Once again you are making claims without any substance. Have you ever touched one of these devices? Naturally slashdot will moderate you up, since your claims are anti-MS.

    >>>>> Speed: Up to 206Mhz compared to the Palm's 20Mhz. Of course, all the MS applications aren't coded as tight as Palm applications so they feel like it is 20Mhz. Honestly, I have a Palm IIIe that I have used Afterburner II to slow-down to save on battery life. I normally run at 13Mhz compared to the normal 16Mhz and it is fine. Most of the time the machine is idling anyway. Isn't like we've got RC5 going in the background.

    What a geek you are, not wanting to run RC5 in the background? :) Secondly, I guess my old 8088 running WordStar is just fine for all my work. Right? Of course, you need 200mhz when you are doing as much as these PocketPC devices... try decoding an MPEG on a 13mhz machine... oh wait, you don't even have color, or a speaker, or the storage... damn, you're out of luck. Plus, let's look at prices.. A 13mhz Palm IIIe costs $200, a 200mhz PocketPC costs $500. Would you make this same argument if they were actual PCs? You might say, but it's a PDA. But, seriously... why limit yourself? oh, I know... becuase it's Microsoft.

    >>>>> Expansion Slot: Welll, ok, they got it there, maybe.

    Maybe? It's got CompactFlash! The only addon's for Palms are proprietery. I can go anywhere and buy TONS of CF stuff.

    >>>>> Sync: "Always ready to go with ActiveSync!" Like, ActiveX? ActiveDesktop? Uhm, I dunno about you but me, I'm fine with pushing a single button.

    Wow, once again, something you have apparently NEVER TRIED!!!! ActiveSync is a great piece of software that not only allows you to sync up your stuff (just like the palm) but you can also search your device as if it's another drive... How can you tell me that you DON'T WANT THAT FEATURE? If you don't, at least you can ignore it. It's not an option on the palm.

    >>>> USB connection: Aaand? USB may be nice but I've not really worried over a sync before.

    That's becuase your palm doesn't have the ability to play Mpeg files and mp3 files which are pretty large. Oh wait, I guess that's the bloat you were referring to!

    >>>>> IrDA: No comment

    Same thing on both. I guess the Palm does tie on something.

    >>>> Handwriting Recognition: OK, everyone who can't read their own handwriting please raise their hands. Grey raises his hand. I like Graffiti because it is easy. Microsoft really is going for the lazy people here. "No more buttons to press, don't have to learn an input system that 90% resembles what you write anyway!"

    Um... no. Once again it's an option that can actually be removed from the system. If you want Graffiti, you can have it. It just won't take up that screen real-estate when it's gone.. Pretty nice don't you think? Can your silk-screen disappear like that?

    >>>>> Voice Recording: Why? With 32Mb you can barely cram anything into that of any value. Besides, there are add-ons for the Palm that allow this.

    With one line you say it's not needed, with the next you say you can get it. Why bother stating it? Plus, we're talking out of box. In addition, voice recordings don't have to be CD-Quality, and low quality (but understandable recordings) are rather small. I fit an entire lecture class of 90 minutes on my Cassiopeia before upgrading it's ram (which is cheap since CF is standard) and still had TONS of room free.

    >>>>> On-Board Financial Software: Wow, Money for PocketPC included. Works with Microsoft Money 2000. I use Quicken 2000 and PocketQuicken on my Palm. Wow, imagine that.
    I guess we both have it. Cool, but guess which one is more feature rich?

    >>>>> Mapping Software: "Clarity of maps confined to low resolution screens." 160x160 compared to 320x240. Both of those, to me, are low resolution. Besides, those same low resolution screens work fine on specialized GPS devices for years now. I don't need the extra space for an effing animated streetsign (2nd cousin to the paperclip) to tell me to turn left now. One back-seat driver will be quite enough, thank you. Needless to say there are several applications for the Palm that provide this as well as several GPS modules for the Palm.

    Right, apparently you've never used this either. The map is obviously going to be easier to read in 16bit color.

    >>>>>> Play MP3s: "No need to carry an additional MP3 player". Pocket PC, 32Mb. Rio, IIRC, 96Mb. There is a reason why I don't want my Palm to do MP3s, the specialized device does it better.

    Does it? I can't skin my Rio (which I also own.) My Rio can't play WMAs, MOVs and WAVs. My Rio can't be upgraded to newer versions. Aside from that, I really would rather carry one PocketPC device over 10 little devices. Everyone argues how bulky the PPC is... but you know what's bulkier? A book, a voice recorder, an mp3 player and a PDA. This has everything in one package.

    >>>>>>> Text reader: iSilo, Peanut Press, DOC format (dozens of readers there) TealDOC, etc, etc, etc

    Right, and they're out for the PPC as well. You're penalizing MS for a bundled piece of software?

    >>>>>> Animated Games: The whole reason I started writing this. First off, I hate the corpspeak "experience". "A wonderful web experience!" "A great gaming experience!" "That new Star Trek show furthers the TV experience!" Get over it, it isn't an experience, it is a game. Furthermore, I guess Zap 2000! doesn't count as an animated game. What comes standard with the Palm PC that is awesome? Solitaire and Minesweeper? Definintely have to look add-on here in both cases.

    I guess you do... but then again, the Palm's games aren't too stellar either... add-on or packaged. At least I can get Doom (which runs at 24fps and only takes up 5megs) for my CE device... or a color gameboy emulator. Can your palm play color gameboy games?

    Sure you might not waht to play color gameboy games... but then you don't have to install that feature. Once again, with the PPC it's an option.

    I love my WinCE device and can't wait to upgrade to the PPC devices. And no, I'm not a Microsoft lover... I'm running FreeBSD over here and even own a Mac (running LinuxPPC) Before you jump on me, yes the WinCE device CAN sync to Linux PCs.

    Don't flame MS because it's "cool" and they're evil. They actually did good with this device, and I think Palm should really have to worry. Especially if the IIIc is all they can come up with.

    -Nick Vlku
  • Do a search for Yopy on slashdot here and you get one of these with linux on it. Samsung is making them. also check out www.yopy.org
  • The battery lives quoted are in hours of actual use, not "real time" required between battery changes or recharges. Using a program called BMonitor, I find that I get about 25-35 hours on a pair of AAA's in a Palm III. I change batteries every couple of months. YMMV, of course.

    Still, it's better than any of the WinCE's or PocketPC's, but make sure that you draw comparisons along the same lines.
  • PalmOS has been licensed for use in such devices as the HandSpring Visor [handspring.com], TRGPro [trgpro.com], and others. Furthermore, you can run ucLinux [uclinux.org] on it.

    With many WinCE devices, developers had to produce multiple versions of the same program to cope with different devices' displays, controls, and processors. Hardly an open standard.

    While you're scrawling commands at a prompt or waiting as X groks away the last of your memory and rejoicing "Hooray for Open Source!" the Palm users will be -- get ready now -- using their PDA's for productive use.
  • I couldn't disagree more. Come on people, what is the ultimate goal for handhelds in your world? In 10 years, do you want us al to be using Palm MCXXIII's with 24-bit color and wireless internet but still running minimalist PIM software?

    Or, do you want a device that is a gameboy, cellphone, MP3 player, memo pad, PDA, camcorder, phaser :), etc. all in one slim form factor?

    When I first got a Palm device a couple of years ago, I was shocked when I later saw Palm's marketing material. If I had seen just that, I would never have bought a Pilot. A fancy electronic rolodex and notepad - an executive's toy. Bah. Not for me.

    But despite what the marketing fluff claimed, I hadn't bought a PIM. I had bought a slick device that developers were busy hacking all kinds of odd and interesting hardware and software for. While the standard apps ARE amazingly valuable, there are other 3rd party apps that also earn their (and the Palm device's) keep. Everything and the kitchen sink? If it's done well, load it on.

    Microsoft incorporates into the Pocket PC's many of the things that ultimately I dream of using in my PDA. They are *far* ahead of the game technologically speaking. But their implementation sucks (at least it did in WinCE, and the C|Net review suggests it still suffers from those problems).
    Well... yea. Implementation. That's the rub. Its a nice thought to say MS is ahead of the tech game... but if their offering isn't implemented properly, is it REALLY ahead? I don't think so.

    Palm has succeeded for some very good reasons - they're functional. They work. They weren't the first PDAs available. They weren't able to leverage success in other markets. And they went against some stiff competition. Yet, they still come out on top. Palm's approach to functionality may not LOOK sexy to some people (I personally subscribe to the concept of "less is more") but its usefull.

    Other attempts at PDA design have missed that very same mark.

    Newcomers to the PDA scene would do well to take a good look at Palm's leasons learned. I think the subtle point here is that a Palm device CAN have tons of nifty gadgets hanging off of it - but it is not a replacement for your choice of computing platform. Its an extension to your desktop (or laptop as the case may be). It allows your data to be a bit more mobile. Perhapse it also enables you to do some things (manipulate a small amount of data, play a game, pull down a map, etc) on the move. But that's the limitation.

    There are tasks that a PDA just isn't right for. Trying to force a PDA to do those tasks is an exercise in futility and a path to a failed product offering.

  • Nothing on color screen is readable in direct sunlight. My libretto can't show shit in those situation.
    Your Libretto does not use the same technology that's in a Cassiopeia. I can't remember what it is, but I do remember that when it was first introduced, the Cassiopeia was the first commercial product to use that kind of display.

    Sigh... I guess I'll have to rummage around for some info to back this up... *rummages*... *rummages*...

    Okay, I can't find any, and I'm tired. But just trust me on this: Don't judge the Cassiopeia's screen based on other color LCDs. It's different.
  • No, he was stating that the MS comparison list was using the term out-of-the-box misleadingly and compensating accordingly.
    Whoops, you're right. But I don't think there's anything misleading about making an out-of-the-box comparison... All those add-ons he mentioned add up to a sizable amount of money, as well as a sizeable chunk of the Palm's tiny RAM space.
  • Well, there are web browsers for the palm pilot. www.proxinet.com, www.avantgo.com, and handweb(don't know the url off-hand) just to name a few.
    The first two aren't web browsers, they're web clipping systems. The third is discontinued. (http://www.smartcodesoft.com/ [smartcodesoft.com])

    There may very well be web browsers for the Palm out there, but you've got to be look carefully... The claims they make about fake browsers like AvantGo are downright deceptive.
  • Others in this thread have effectively refuted most of this FUD, but let me just add a few points:

    Of course we're talking Pocket Outlook Express here.
    No, we're talking about Pocket Outlook. (And yes, there is a difference.)

    Web-Browsing: Well, considering the resolution (320x240) there aren't many sites that will come across looking decent in the first place.
    FWIW, I use iBrowser on my Cassiopeia, and it's not that bad. The software scales images, so the formatting looks roughly the same even on such a narrow screen. I'm sure Pocket IE will do the same.

    Color: Hope the sun isn't out, right? :)
    I can't speak for the other Pocket PC's, but Casio's line uses some kind of magic display technology that's far more readable in sunlight than a black-and-white Palm is.

    Multimail Pro... Pocket Quicken...
    Sorry, didn't you say you were comparing them "out-of-the-box"? According to Palm's website, neither of these two programs are included with the Palm IIIc. (And as others have pointed out, even if you buy them separately, you would have to waste RAM on them.)

    Play MP3s: Pocket PC, 32Mb. Rio, IIRC, 96Mb. There is a reason why I don't want my Palm to do MP3s, the specialized device does it better.
    If I ever actually wanted to play MP3s on my WinCE machine, I'd pop in a 340 MB hard drive. You don't have that option on Plams. (Do you?)

    Most of your complaints seem to be that Pocket PCs have too many features (at roughly the same price.) Why exactly is that a problem?
  • They fail to mention that the Palm, along with a modem, also allows unlimited web access.
    Is that true? I know the Palm OS is capable of using a real PPP connection, but I don't believe that it includes a web browser. (Or even a POP3 email program.)
  • Of course, both of these systems require a special proxy server (free service) to reduce the complexity of html/images. Perhaps this is the limitation you are refering to?
    This thread is pretty stale, but you asked a question, so... Yes, that is what I had in mind. It was wrong of me to call Proxiweb a "web-clipping" system, but I don't think it's a "real web browser" in any reasonable sense, just because it requires that you support it with your own server. It looks like AvantGo might actually be a real web browser, although they don't make that very clear in their ads.

    Anyway, I'll concede that there are web browsers for the Palms. (It's a law of nature that if a computer is capable of doing something, someone will write the software.) My original point was that it doesn't include a real web browser, unlike the new WinCE machines.
  • However... "Handwriting Recognition" really worries me.
    The new natural handwriting recognition is supposed to be optional. (I had a Newton too, and it was a pain.) Palm-style letter recognition will still be available, as it is in current WinCE machines.

    Incidentally, my Cassiopeia hasn't crashed once. I'm not sure where all these WinCE instability stories are coming from. (But I have an idea...)
  • I've had a Cassiopeia E-105 for six months now, and it is definitely not a WinCE 3.0 machine. According to Casio's press release, the model introduced today is the E-115. I haven't seen any information about its specs or size, so it may be quite different from the E-105. (Though I doubt it.)

    I think the Pocket PCs are dandy. It looks like Microsoft has really combined the best features of WinCE (applications, a real OS, support for better hardware,) with the best features of Palm's and their kin (a simple and fast interface, USB support.)

    Those of you who are complaining about the speed of current WinCE devices, you should note that the current version of WinCE wastes massive amounts of CPU time pretending to be Windows. Now that Microsoft has given up on making WinCE look just like Windows, it's reported that the new OS runs more than twice as fast on the same hardware.
  • For anyone who has used a CE device (and I have) you realize just how much they behave like windows... EXACTLY like Windows
    Have you read the linked-to articles? The whole point of "Pocket PC" is that it no longer uses the Windows interface. The Pocket PC interface is designed for palmtops. They've eliminated all the features from WinCE that don't make sense on a palmtop, like double-taps, a task bar, and cascading menus. (Not sure I like that last change, but we'll see.)
  • forget that cheap part, Wince machines cost 2-3 times a much as a palm.
    Palm IIIc: $449 [palm.com]

    Cassiopeia E-115: $599 [casio.com]

    Hmmm... I actually thought the WinCE machine would be cheaper, but it sure isn't "2-3 times as much." 'Course, these are list prices. I bet the difference is even smaller at retail.
  • Is it just me, or does anyone else think that the PDA fad is glutting the market with cheap replications of existing products? I'd like to see some real innovation come about in the PDA market, like Blue Tooth-enabled devices, or RJ-45 jacks on PDAs. Now that would be nice...
  • So, does anyone know what kind of processors these babies have? Is it supported by GCC? Well, then, how about Linux on one of these?
  • UMMMMMM..... Why would one bother to download the trailer, send it to thier pda, waste valuable memory, and watch it on a tiny batter-powered screen. Watch it on yer damn computer and use your pda for something USEFUL. I carry around this little grey brick in my pocket because it has piles of useful info that makes my day a heck of alot eaiser. Its quick and easy, becoming a seamless extension of your everyday life. It does exactly what 80% of the pda market wants.....
    Anything more, and you buy a *laptop*.
    Heck, you can even get a mini sized laptop for not much more than these things anymore.

    My palm only crashes with explicit conflicts. I *never ever ever* get random-ass crashes. Only when something dosn't happen to like a hack I have installed or is missing something critical, or dosn't like something that was added/changed in the latest revision of the Palm OS...


    ----------------------------------------------
  • The Handspring Visor is build w/USB, not the serial connection in Palm handhelds.... I have a couple of USB->RJ-45 adapters lying around in my apartment right now--just need to get a driver together to make the Handspring recognize TCP/IP...Sure, it's not going to be anywhere near as fast as a 100Mbps card, but who really needs to swap out the entire memory of their handheld 1.5 times/second?hmmm... new project for me, I think...
  • CE devices use MIPS 4xxx, Hitachi SH3/SH4, and StrongARM CPUs.

    I don't know about gcc support, but someone's probably done it or in the process of doing it. Check out linuxce.org [linuxce.org] for a Linux port.
  • "be prepared for some crashes" says Cnet! Looks just like CE all over again. For market watchers, the fact that Palm went UP while MSFT went DOWN might tell you how the investment world took the news.
  • MS Book reader?

    Whoa, a book is basically text, and perhaps a few pictures. WTF is wrong with using HTML for that? I mean HTML is standard, open, simple, portable and unencrypted.

    Oh wait, it's standard, open, simple, portable and unencrypted.
  • Who the hell is going to buy a $800 electronic device ill-suited for anything other than Solitaire! Hell, even Solitaire has to be difficult to play, what with the tiny form factor and Windows interface!!

    I vote we dub it 'The Microsoft Gameboy'. After all, is is just a toy compared to a Palm.
  • Simply put, people keep forgetting why the Palm Pilot has done so well.

    It ISN'T a PC.

    It IS an extension of your PC.

    And so, you don't need desktop bloat to get real value for your money. Hence, 2-3 months on a couple of AAA's.

  • When I'm at a customer site, the main reason I lug a heavy laptop is to give Powerpoint presentations - a PDA with a VGA port and Pocket Powerpoint and a good MSBriefcase-like file synchronizer would let me leave the laptop behind
    and still do calendars and read email on the train. Even a VGA PCMCIA card would do, if the PDA knew how to use it. But without the ability to talk to a monitor or projector and enough ram for the typical 4MB bloated PPT, there's no point in hauling the bigger MS apps around, and I'd much prefer a lightweight friendly PDA OS like the Palm or Psion or at least the old HP MSDOS PDAs.


    My Psion 3a was a wonderful machine; just at the upper limits of "pocket-sized", but I could type at full-speed (Graffiti - arrgxx\\gh) and the apps and OS were well-though-out, convenient, and synced well with PC apps. The 9.54MHz 8086-clone was more than enough horsepower for the apps it had, though crypto could be a bit slow. Hardware was extremely durable and solid, but unfortunately you can only drop it on the floor so many times and Psion's gotten a lot less responsive to US repair customers, and the cool new wares are mostly being written for Palms anyway.


    One of my friends has a Cassiopeia with the new camera, MP3 player, etc. - good toys do somewhat make up for the OS :-)

  • In that article they say thet Byte estimates there are only 200 windows ce developers worldwide. I find that hard to believe. I'm a wince developer in India, and considering the companies other than mine that do wince work, I am pretty sure that we must have that number in India itself. And there are a whole lot of WinCE apps out there - SOMEBODY must have developed them. Comments, anybody??
  • I think we (/.) should launch a public relations drive to help MS keep their "Freedom To Crashinate". A freedom to crashinate network.

    IT workers world wide deserve several 10 min. coffee breaks per day while their windows computer "un-crashinates" (reboots). lol
    ___

  • It's not anything new. Palm has ms beat on price and share and has lock-in on developers. I don't care if ms can make a PDAos whistle zippity do da, it's still to expensive.
    ___
  • I picked up a copy of USA today and found an extensive write-up on how Microsoft is releasing new PDAs. I then read on to find a lengthy article that compares the palm to the HP and talks up Microsoft for all their hard work. I then turn to the back page to find a full page add touting how wonderful Microsoft is for making these little battery burners.

    Newsflash: MS DOESN"T MAKE A PDA !

    Why in the world would 2 companies with a strong user base and solid brand name put themselves in a PR position that makes them look like "The guys who make the kewl little PDA case" and ms comes off looking like the 8th freakin' wonder of the world (all without ms making or selling any product).

    It's a horrible PR deal for any company making units for MS to position themselves as yet-another-ms-product-distributor.
    ___

  • I know most /. readers hate Microsoft with a firey passion, but come on.... To say that MS has no chance is this field because Palm already has 70% of the market is bull! The hand held does not have the same type of lock-in that desktop operating systems have. Its not like you invest a lot of time learning your Palm and invest a lot of money in software. Users can easily switch from PalmOS to PocketPC. They're both easy to use, have the same general functions and come with most of the software needed to operate one. Once consumers start seeing both on the market and can compare price/features side by side, I doubt brand loyalty will keep them from switching to the best solution for them. I see MS having no problem getting over %50 of the market here. ...enough of my rambling.
  • No.

    The OS is in masked ROM. Its up to the OEM to provide a ROM upgrade to the new OS. I haven't seen any official announcements of OEM's like Casio/HP/Compaq except for some vague report that filtered in from Compaq germany.

    Based on past history, they will offer ROM upgrades. You'll have to send the device back to the factory and it will probably run $100 or so...

    I think people who purchased compaq devices in the last month or so are eligible for free upgrades. I haven't seen any other OEM's making announcements about this yet.
  • First off, having these applications in ROM is a big deal. The OEM can mark them XIP (eXecute In Place) which means that there is no need to page the app into memory at all. Big memory savings! (Sure you still need heap space and stack space - but no paging of the executable code itself)

    Full Email app in ROM is a big plus. This leaves you more space for messages. Pocket Outlook is nothing like outlook express. Its a slimmed down client perfect for a small device.

    web browsing Clipping and mirroring are nice. You point out you don't need a web browser for that. You still can do it with Pocket IE. But for those times you need to find information you forgot to load up before leaving the office/home you still can get to them. This rules. Real web browsing is critical imho. (Yes the screen is small (but still huge compared to the little palm), but sites light slashdot are fine)

    avantgo in rom you don't waste any space... Pig it may be, but its a free pig.

    color The new hardware performs pretty well. The contrast/resolution is much much much superior than color palm or the b/w palm. Even b/w ce devices beat color palm if you are using them for extended periods of time.

    memory As I pointed out before, only gets used by running apps, not stuff bundled in ROM. (bundles are OEM decisions - not MS)

    activesync and you never forget to push the button when you run off late to an appointment. Then you probably don't need a pda. For those of us who aren't so organized, the auto sync rules.

    usb if you had a device that you could really store a lot of data on, you'd appreciate the speed of USB or ethernet. But if you were really concerned about this before you just bought a NIC. (oops palm has no expansion slot sorry, i forgot.)

    financial software ok you got me there. MS Money is crappy. But from a cursory inspection, it looks like pocket ms money is all I ever needed. (I use a spreadsheet at home to track full info - neither quicken or monoy is good enough on the desktop)

    mapping software you need to compare the screens side by side to understand the resolution of the screens. CE lcd panels are nice, palms are crappy. Maybe like the difference between sony trinitron and zenith curvy...

    mp3 don't forget about the 512MB IBM Microdrive you can throw in the CF slot. (well and the really really long power cord you need...yes I understand this problem)

    text reader again, ROM rules for memory savings.

    games yeah experience is marketing speak. But color games rule, but no nothing cool comes with the in the box.


    so obviously I think the PocketPCs are cool. I've used both extensively, and I must say Palms are way too low tech. They can't do what I want them to do and believe it or not, I find the interface difficult and frustrating. win95 is probably worse on a palmtop. But the new PocketPC/rapier shell is a big improvement. I think its at least as good as the palm.

    The comparison should always be out of the box. There's plenty of add-on software for both platforms. But it takes extra effort and likely extra money to get those features... The PocketPC will turn heads, it is at least on par with the Palm. IMO it surpasses the Palm, but I figure thats just my opinion so far...
  • This is comparing apples and oranges. Palm devices were not made to play mp3s. They are PDA, not pocket entertainment center. I prefer my Handspring Visor, the batteries last for over a month, I can plug in a springboard module if I need extra functionallity.
  • Only Microsoft could silence 50 years of innovation with one fell swoop.

    That is, until the Amish take over the world! [tripod.com]

    Mwa ha ha ha ha!

  • " Microsoft Reader prevents the free exchange of information by preventing the sharing of e-books, the same type of sharing you might do with a paper book that you own."

    So, what's to prevent you from sharing your e-book? If there's a friend you trust enough to lend your PDA, then there's nothing to keep you from physically transfering the device from your hand to his, letting him read any e-books contained therein, and returning it to you when he's done.

    Kind of like a paper book, isn't it?

  • I'm posting this just as I received it a few minutes ago....

    Subject: Palm talks about Pocket PC with Palm Advantage attachment
    Date: Thu, 20 Apr 00 00:49:19 -0800
    From: Palm Developer Program <reg_dev@palm.com>
    To:

    The Palm Advantage attachment is included.

    ------------------------------------------------ -----

    Dear Palm Solution Providers:

    We've received some questions from the Palm economy regarding what we think about the new version of Windows CE, which Microsoft calls Pocket PC. We expect that Microsoft will make a very big launch event and advertising campaign starting April 19, just as they did with the last version of Windows CE.

    Just like last time, some industry analysts will announce that Palm is dead, because Microsoft's handheld has more PC features than Palm handhelds. And just like last time, when the smoke clears we think Palm will still be on top.

    We don't ever underestimate a competitor, though. The market is too competitive and changes too fast. Besides, there's no question that Windows CE is less unpleasant than it used to be. So we'll continue to work hard to tell Palm's story, including the amazing array of great software and hardware products that you bring to the Palm platform.

    Now that we're a public company, we have very aggressive plans to drive the long-term growth of the Palm platform. We'll be revealing more about those plans in the next several months. And in the meantime, we think we have a great story to tell about Palm and our partners today. Here's some of the information we'll be distributing. You'll see this reflected in new and more aggressive marketing campaigns this summer. If you get questions about Palm's competitiveness, we encourage you to pass this information along. And we'd like to hear from you if you have comments on this memo, or ideas on things that we could do better.

    Please email your comments and suggestions to devinfo@palm.com with "Pocket PC feedback" in the subject title.

    Thanks very much for your support of the Palm family.

    Michael Mace
    VP, Product Strategy
    Palm, Inc.
    =================
    The Palm Advantage

    Palm OS(R) handhelds are the standard
    - Palm OS has more than 75% market share worldwide, and our installed base doubled in the last year.
    - Palm OS has more than 5,000 software programs, 10-50 times more than any other handheld platform.
    - Palm OS is supported by the leaders in enterprise software, including Oracle, Siebel, SAP, Lawson, Sun, and Sybase.

    Palm OS handhelds are the leader because they were designed from the ground up for your needs
    - They're designed for information management when you're on the go, not to be a shrunken PC. Key features of a handheld are different from a PC:
    - Simple. You can instantly access the information you need.
    - Wearable. It's small and light enough that that you can carry it in a pocket or a purse all day, and the batteries last long enough that you can go on a business trip without fear of losing information.
    - Mobile. You can always update your information through wired or wireless connections, even when you are on the go.
    - We believe Palm remains the clear leader in all three areas.

    What to ask when evaluating a handheld
    - How many software programs and hardware options are available? As for any other computing product, the number of software and hardware options determine how much you can do with it. Palm OS has by far the largest selection, with more than 5,000 software programs and hundreds of hardware expansion options.

    - Do the people around you use it? Handheld users share information. They use the infrared connection to exchange business cards, information, and even software programs. Make sure you're not stuck on a handheld island.

    - How many companies sell it? Which companies support the platform? How many? How innovative are they? Palm licensees and OEMs include many of the most innovative companies in electronics, including leaders like Sony, Nokia, and IBM, and hot new companies like Handspring, Qualcomm, and TRG.

    - Is it open? Make sure your freedom of choice is protected. Some handhelds restrict your choices by forcing you to buy all of one company's software programs, limiting you to a single expansion technology, or not working with the full range of corporate software. The Palm platform gives you freedom of choice in software, with a multitude of different spreadsheets, document editors, e-book readers, mapping programs, financial management programs, etc. (see "Did You Know," below). The Palm platform offers the most expansion options -- hundreds of external expansion products for the Palm-branded family, Springboard(TM) modules from Handspring, CompactFlash(TM) from TRG, and coming soon Memory Stick(R) technology from Sony. And Palm OS handhelds are designed to work with all leading computing environments, including PCs and Macs; Outlook and Notes; Yahoo and AOL; and the leaders in enterprise software.

    - Are you forced to pay for features you don't want? Everyone wants different things from a handheld. Adding hardware features increases the weight and cost of the system. Bundling extra software costs you money, and uses extra memory which adds even more cost and reduces battery life. You'll carry your handheld with you all day -- make sure you're only carrying the programs and features you'll really want. Palm puts the basics in its systems, and makes it easy for you to add whatever you want.

    - How simple is it, really? Beware of companies that try to cram an entire PC into your pocket. Adding PC-style menus, windows, and programs can make a handheld too complex, and forces you to pay for extra memory and high-powered processors that can destroy battery life. Remember, the most important features of a handheld are getting to the information you need instantly and reliably, and getting a battery life long enough that you can travel without the fear of losing your information.

    - How well do the features work in real life? Sometimes features work better in a demo than they do in real life. A prime example is browsing the Web. When connected to a phone line, browsing can look very fast. But when using a wireless connection, which is what most handheld users want to do, the Web slows to a crawl. You can get browsers for the Palm platform, but we also offer Web Clipping, a Web technology designed specifically for handhelds, which allows access to Web information in under ten seconds, even over a very slow connection.

    Did you know that software and hardware announced for the Palm platform includes...
    --More than a dozen e-reading programs and thousands of e-books.
    --Several full-function spreadsheet programs that can read and edit Excel files.
    --Numerous document-editing programs that let you read and edit Word files.
    --Online shopping from Amazon, Ebay, and many others.
    --Several full-function database programs.
    --Corporate tools that let you fill out forms, check inventory, take orders, and even make job offers through a wireless connection.
    --Hundreds of games.
    --Many financial management programs.
    --Numerous drawing and painting programs.
    --Tools that let you easily develop your own Palm OS programs in minutes.
    --Two Web browsers.
    --An MP3 player.
    --Global Positioning System receivers and several mapping programs.
    --Cellphones that are also full-function Palm-compatible handhelds.
    --An electronic camera that lets you view pictures on your Palm handheld.
    --Online weather from Weather.com, sports from ESPN, and news from ABC, the New York Times, and the BBC.
    --A voice memo recorder.
    --And thousands of others.
    ---
  • So what's changed between Windows CE flopping heinously and Pocket PC? Windows CE didn't fail because of the name, it failed because it's desktop OS shoe-horned into a PDA. Doesn't look like much has changed except the name.

    I suspect that they changed the name so they could claim "it isn't Windows" and shield it from some action they thought might happen to it in the antitrust case. What action that might be, I'm not sure. But as I've said before, the most effective remedy is going to be opening all the MS APIs [slashdot.org]. Maybe they think that they'll end up having to open the Windows source to public view, and wanted to keep this from happening with Windows CE (er, Pocket PC).
    ---

  • I think these actually look pretty good, I have had both palm and Compaq PDAs, and I, for one, found the compaq far more useful, since I use outlook at work and at home, and it was a snap to synch all my data, also, the PDA itself had a similar interface to outlook.

    I like that they're including Media Player on these, too. Saves me the trouble of buying an MP3 player.

    When can I get one powered by Crusoe, though?
  • So what's changed between Windows CE flopping heinously and Pocket PC? Windows CE didn't fail because of the name, it failed because it's desktop OS shoe-horned into a PDA. Doesn't look like much has changed except the name.

    And it crashes, or so the report says. Who has time for a PDA which crashes? Microsoft really needs to learn that the Golden Rule of embedded systems is that they don't crash.

    I can see why they want to get into these lucrative markets, but essentially they're trying to get money for old rope. If M$ really want to corner the embedded OS market I'm sure they could, provided they make a new product for it - but they're not going to conquer the PDA market (or, for that matter, the games console market) with the latest version of DOS.

  • I do not think it will kill Palm just yet...

    From the CNET Review: [cnet.com]

    Crash City; Poor Character Recognizer

    Unlike Palm OS's easy Grafitti writing program, Pocket PC's character recognizer is inconsistent. We like the fact that you can actually see the letters as you write them on the device's screen, but we wish that the character recognizer would translate written characters into the correct letters.

    Although Pocket PC has many helpful Windows similarities, it also inherited one of the OS's most annoying traits: it crashes. Just like good ol' Windows 98, this little OS crashes more often than we'd like. Our machine froze four times in less than three hours.

  • Yeah, a feature list that touts "With the Palm you have to press the HotSync button, but with ours it's automatic" really impresses me.

    I'm sorry, but people buy a PDA because it's a small handheld device to do specific things. Microsoft keeps repackaging their products and OS to platforms that don't make much sense. If I wanted Outlook or an Internet browser I would have bought a laptop to put it on, not a PDA.
  • A few odds and ends about Microsoft's latest inroads into the PDA market...

    I think it was in the Journal today that I read something about Microsoft finding out what Apple feels like. That's not really a fair comparison -- after all, Apple's situation was (largely through their own stubbornness) having the rug pulled out from under them. WinCE was never more than a reaction, and now that Palm owns the market I don't think there will be much for them to worry about.

    I do think it might be in Palm's best interest to opensource PalmOS as a preemptive strike against MS attempting to force corporate hands (i.e. we can't guarantee that your Win2K machines will be able to HotSync properly after the next service pack release). I doubt their revenue stream is all that dependent on licensing anyway; they probably make the bulk of their money off of hardware.

    At any rate, I think Microsoft is playing the same card they played to dilute the Network Computer revolution (a misguided idea to begin with, but bear with me). *Of course* users want extra functionality! *Of course* they want better integration!

    You tell me: do you really need a PDA that can do everything a laptop can do? I don't know about anything else, but the day I can finally afford one what I'll be looking for is a smart notebook, not something I can use to replace my Mac and Linux box with on the road (that's what laptops are for).

    I don't think I'd buy a WinCE machine (old or new) unless I could nuke WinCE and replace it anyway. That's just me, though.

    /Brian
  • Does anybody know what the battery life expectation is for these devices? I'm assuming I'm not looking at the 3 months or so I get on my old Palm Pilot, but Its about time to upgrade (touch screen problems).. I'm curious to see what the usability of these devices are.
    What are the alternatives to the silly "start" menu? Has the Evil Empire [microsoft.com] finally made something to compete with the Palm? [palmpilot.com]

  • My take on the comparison, FWIW (Score:3)

    by Kris_J ( 10111 ) on Wednesday April 19, 2000 @02:10PM (#1123055) Homepage Journal
    Quick background; Company size=55, No. of PDAs=4 (me - IT Manager, TRGpro; "LB" - Property Manager, PalmV; "WI" - Sales Rep, PalmV; "PS" - Investment Sales Rep, Casiopea, umm 105? B&W)

    Two lies in MS's comparison; Palms do have IRDA, it used it for hotsyncing and mobile internet connect (Nokia 8810) without any additional software. I didn't use the cabled cradle until almost a month after I got my TRGpro. Second lie, "Animated Games". Of course the Palm platform has games.

    Quick observation; The 3 Palm owners use our devices very heavily. News, spreadsheets, e-mail, appointments, etc. The WinCE owner hasn't worked out how do use his device properly yet. He's had it longer than me, but you just can't work out how the WinCE system works without reading the manual, if you're not particularly computer literate. On the other hand, the two PalmV owners have read just as little of their manuals, but have no problems using their devices.

    This isn't a troll, I'm not making any judgements, this is just the truth...

  • Wired Article (Score:3)

    by Col. Klink (retired) ( 11632 ) on Wednesday April 19, 2000 @11:13AM (#1123056)
    I'm surprised no one cited the Wired artice: Strike 3 for MS Handhelds [wired.com] article.

  • Wireless and the Pocket PC (Score:3)

    by Cef ( 28324 ) on Wednesday April 19, 2000 @05:04PM (#1123057)

    Just a note that the Symbol PPT 2700 has their Spectrum24 Wireless Networking as an option on the unit (PPT 2740). Spectrum24 is an IEEE 802.11 certified system for wireless communication over short distances using the 2.4 Ghz ISM band.

    The Symbol units also have an integral barcode reader which aims the device at data collection. This is quite understandable given that Symbol have been working with barcoding technology for many, many years. (You can also use the barcode reader as a laser pointer.)

    However, Symbol also have another unit that runs PalmOS (SPT 1500 and SPT 1700) and also has a Spectrum24 Wireless Networking option (SPT 1540 and SPT 1740), and also ships with a radio capable version of the HotSync product. The SPT 1700 series is a ruggedised version of the SPT 1500 series product, and more resembles the shape of the PPT 2700.

  • Re:Microsoft Reader (Score:3)

    by Wah ( 30840 ) on Wednesday April 19, 2000 @11:24AM (#1123058) Homepage Journal
    Kind of like a paper book, isn't it?

    Only Microsoft could silence 50 years of innovation with one fell swoop.

    --

  • Re:Battery Life? (Score:3)

    by quiller ( 67784 ) on Wednesday April 19, 2000 @11:25AM (#1123059)
    Battery Life is supposed to be 8 hours (on the HP device).

  • Re:There's a deceptive line or two in their releas (Score:3)

    by GossG ( 108241 ) on Wednesday April 19, 2000 @04:31PM (#1123060)
    A friend of mine has had a palm for at least a year (a 3?). He has a phone that works with it.

    Put the phone on the coffee table, and sit back on the sofa with the palm. The palm talks to the phone by infrared. The phone talks to the rest of the world via whatever cellular protocol Fidonet uses. I've seen him call up MapQuest with it. Took a lot of scrolling.

    The phone is cordless "at both ends". It pressed my future shock buttons. That was at least a year ago.

  • Microsoft Reader (Score:3)

    by CmdrPorno ( 115048 ) on Wednesday April 19, 2000 @10:58AM (#1123061)
    Much like Internet Explorer, there is no way to remove Microsoft Reader from these devices, since it's burned in ROM. As you may remember from a previous article, Microsoft Reader prevents the free exchange of information by preventing the sharing of e-books, the same type of sharing you might do with a paper book that you own.

  • Most humorous comparisons in table... (Score:4)

    by SuperKendall ( 25149 ) on Wednesday April 19, 2000 @06:06PM (#1123062)
    On the Microsoft site they have a comparison [microsoft.com] (note that it's an ASP so they can add more as they think 'em up!) table listing features of the PocketPC and comparing them to a Pilot. I thought I'd list some of the more amusing ones (I left out the description of the benefit figuring everyone would already know with most of the items:

    -------

    Feature: Synchronization
    PPC: Fast, continuous and automatic with ActveSync.
    Palm: HotSync - must push button.

    Feature: Mapping Software
    PPC: Pocket Streets included - with COLOR maps. (Create new maps from MapPoint or Streets & Trips.)
    Palm: Yes, however clarity of maps confined to low resolutions screens.

    Feature: USB Connection
    PPC: Yes.
    Palm: USB access via serial port adapter. No Windows 2000 support as of this writing.

    Feature: Integrated AvantGo
    PPC: Integrated AvantGo client
    Palm: User must load from CD or Internet.

    ------

    All typos are Microsoft, I just copied in the text. Some of the funnier things here include the perceived difficulty of hotsync (I have to press the button AGAIN?), and also the seeming horror of having to load software from a CD. Also, I find it funny how they point out there is no Windows 2000 support - is the current Palm hotsync broken in Win2K? That seems pretty suspicious considering they are releasing a PalmPC of thier own...

  • Re:Couldn't disagree more (Score:4)

    by MosesJones ( 55544 ) on Thursday April 20, 2000 @12:56AM (#1123063) Homepage
    If you want all of this now in a reliable package
    Psion [psion.com] have it. Full compatibility with Word, Excel etc. A full Java 1.1.4 runtime so a Full Web browser. Never crashes, boots in milliseconds.

    All of that is here now it runs using EPOC. And as with the rest of the mobile revolution the major players are in Europe and using it right now, not in some fluffy time in the future.

  • My Favorite Opening Line Ever (Score:4)

    by bcilfone ( 144175 ) on Wednesday April 19, 2000 @11:12AM (#1123064) Homepage
    Direct quote from the CNet article:
    If you love Windows, you're going to love Microsoft's newest version of Windows CE, Pocket PC.
    Ha ha ha ha ha... oh yes, I love Windows. I can't get enough! Can I have it on my toaster too!

  • Re:A quick review of their comparison (Score:5)

    by konstant ( 63560 ) on Wednesday April 19, 2000 @12:38PM (#1123065)
    Greydmiyu, for the record I own a Handspring Visor and neither want nor can afford a Pocket PC. However, your post (which by now certainly has reached Score:5) dips pretty deeply into the realm of self deception.

    Just listen to yourself:

    PocketPC has better email than Palm, but that doesn't count because you don't think retrieving email on the go is important.

    PocketPC has better color than Palm, but since you spend all your time outside, you don't care.

    PocketPC has more memory than Palm, but "something tells you" that it doesn't matter.

    PocketPC is about 10x faster than Palm, but you have a feeling that this is irrelevant. Anyway, 20MHz is enough for anyone.

    PocketPC doesn't require extra attention to sync, but that doesn't count because the buzzname they're using resembles a technology you don't like.

    PocketPC has more sophisticated handwriting recognition than Palm, but that doesn't count because it's completely reasonable for people to learn how to write twice simply in order to use a PDA.

    PocketPC allows voicerecording at no extra charge, but that doesn't count because you can't imagine anyone will ever want to record sound in a meeting.

    PocketPC has superior and more intuitive mapping technology, but that doesn't count because real men use astrolabes.

    PocketPC has better music support, but that doesn't count because everyone should have at least two wallet-sized silicon devices on them at all times.

    PocketPC incorporates ClearType to a better eBook experience, but that doesn't count because, hell, it's all just text.

    PocketPC supports more sophisticated games (I've seen a cutesy little DOOM) but that doesn't count because you've got pong when you need it.


    -konstant
    Yes! We are all individuals! I'm not!

  • Couldn't disagree more (Score:5)

    by konstant ( 63560 ) on Wednesday April 19, 2000 @12:23PM (#1123066)
    In the Wired article somebody cites below, I found this quote that I feel is fairly similar to the opinions being voiced on slashdot:

    "I think it's going to be more of the same," said Michael Mace, Palm's vice president of product strategy. "They are trying to cram a whole PC in your pocket and that's not the way to do it. It makes for a limited PC and an overstuffed handheld. If you want to make a successful handheld you have to figure out what matters most and only put that in."

    That certainly is one way of looking at things - what you might call the developer's outlook on software. Keep it simple, flush out the flaws, and eschew unneeded complexity. If that means forsaking some flashy end-user features, so be it.

    I couldn't disagree more. Come on people, what is the ultimate goal for handhelds in your world? In 10 years, do you want us al to be using Palm MCXXIII's with 24-bit color and wireless internet but still running minimalist PIM software?

    Or, do you want a device that is a gameboy, cellphone, MP3 player, memo pad, PDA, camcorder, phaser :), etc. all in one slim form factor?

    The problem with Microsoft's offering in the handheld market is emphatically *not* that they give the consumer too much. The problem is that they aren't delivering stable lean software. Microsoft incorporates into the Pocket PC's many of the things that ultimately I dream of using in my PDA. They are *far* ahead of the game technologically speaking. But their implementation sucks (at least it did in WinCE, and the C|Net review suggests it still suffers from those problems).

    Palm by contrast, is, yes indeed, very stable. And also is not likely to enrich our lives with fantastic new consumer technologies. Contacts are contacts. Appointments are appointments. They are useful, but are they really what you crave when you think about embedded palm-held technologies? If the sluggish rate of Palm's software innovation is any judge, this form of competition from Microsoft is precisely what the industry needs.


    -konstant
    Yes! We are all individuals! I'm not!
  • >unlike the Palm, which offers limited Internet
    >accessibility with "Web Clippings," the Pocket
    >PC, along with a modem, allows you unlimited Web
    >access

    They fail to mention that the Palm, along with a modem, also allows unlimited web access. Web clipping only applies to the Palm VII, a wireless capability that the PocketPC doesn't even have.

    It's a non-statement, and deceptive.

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