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Hardware

Seagate Spins 15k RPM HDs 255

An anonymous reader sent us a story about Seagate spinning 15,000-rpm disk drive. This stuff spins faster then my head ;) I don't shop for hard drives very often... it kinda blew me away to see 40 gig IDE drives for only a few hundred bucks. I'm getting all nostalgic for the days of two 360k floppy drives. Weird.
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Seagate Spins 15k RPM HDs

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  • I had a 180K in my Heathkit running CP/M on a green terminal!

    -=-=-=-=-=-=-
    This signature contains text from the worlds funniest signature.

  • But how fast do the HEADS move? That's the other most important side of the equation...
  • I remember the days when floppies were the size of records! Those were the days!
  • Not exactly how fast the heads move but, from the article

    "A 15-k spindle speed helps bring latency down to 2 milliseconds on the Cheetah X15, he explained, compared to 2.99 ms on the company's 10-k rpm class drives and 4.17 ms on its 7,200 rpm drives"
  • Why, I can remember the days when I used a wax-based 33rpm storage system! None of this 15,000 kind of stuff for me, nosir, it's LPs or the highway.
  • Just how fast can current technology take us with hard drives? What are the other technologies being developped to cope with speed limitations that we'll certainly hear about in the near future, not to mention to lower the price of the current hard drives out there?

    EraseMe
  • by whoop ( 194 ) on Wednesday February 23, 2000 @01:14PM (#1250134) Homepage
    Wow. 15 whole RPMs? Watch out, we're cruising now... That's what? About 1 Round every 4 seconds???

    What Taco didn't mention, is that the platters are about four kilometers in diameter. So, 15 RPM looks pretty sweet.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 23, 2000 @01:16PM (#1250135)
    I've done some reading about these new drives and word is that the super high RPMs generate so much heat that Seagate has taken to routing coolant through the drive heads just like blood through your body. Of course the little coolant pipes are tiny tiny, but they're there, chillin out, to use the parlance of our times.
  • by drivers ( 45076 ) on Wednesday February 23, 2000 @01:16PM (#1250136)
    Try reading the article instead of trying to get a fast post (#6 in your case). Yes, it has a faster actuator/seek time as well as faster spindle speed, 3.9 ms. The spin also brings the latency down from 2.99 ms to 2.0 ms, they said. I am curious how noisy those suckers are going to be.
  • These modern "digital data storage" mechanisms just can't match the analog data warmth of LP. Dataophiles everywhere know that LP gives the best-flowing data anywhere.
  • Wow, that's really fast...the engine in my car would blow up if it even thought about going that fast.

    What is the access time on a Hard Disk like this? If it's not much faster than the current 7200 drives, i'll just hold out

    -Tim
  • You know what pisses me off most about this stuff? Every time I shop for hds for my Linux box (I don't do IDE, except for spare storage space), they require a whole new SCSI card.

    Back many years ago, I started with a simple $15 NCR SCSI2 card and two or three 2g Seagate drives. That was great for a while, then I wanted more. After shopping around for quite a while, pretty much anything over 4g was Ultra-Wide. Ok, so I plunk down the money for an UW card and a couple 4.5g IBM drives. Now, I figure it's time to upgrade again, and guess what? Most all the 9g drives I see are Ultra2 Wide. I'm going to have to talk with Al Gore to stop inventing these new technologies so dang much!!
  • by A nonymous Coward ( 7548 ) on Wednesday February 23, 2000 @01:21PM (#1250141)
    And I used it in the early 1970s. Univac SS90 (90 column cards, round holes) had a 50,000 digit (5000 words x 10 digits) 17,000 rpm drum for main memory. Now Seagate is getting close, but they aren't up to that yet, and by gum, never mind that Seagate claims all the other manufacturers are 2 quarters behind: they are all 42+ years behind Univac.

    Dang thing took an hour to spin down and ten minutes to spin up.

    --
  • now THAT's funny.

    cheers,
    -l
  • I remember my old BBC Micro. A single tape drive that was pretty unreliable at 300baud.

    Mind you, it had a BASIC interpreter and a neat 6502 assembler in 16K of ROM, and would boot in less than two seconds.

    They don't make them like they used to. Fortunately.

    (Incidentally, I've still got it. Must see if I can get it to run NetBSD some time.)
  • Now that's fast. I remember when 60ms was fast.

    Now we're talking about a mere 18G drive, but I suspect that such speeds will probably be available on larger drives shortly. (I don't have any inside info on that, though.)
  • These modern "digital data storage" mechanisms just can't match the analog data warmth of LP. Dataophiles everywhere know that LP gives the best-flowing data anywhere.

    I've been storing my jazz and classical MP3s on my LP hard drive. Of course, I had to get a way bigger case for my G3, but it's totally worth it.
  • for now.
    some work on replacing CDDA have much higher sampling rates. once the rate is high enough that you really REALLY can't tell (obviously Sony (or whoever) invented CDDA didn't do much tripping with the headphones on...) then you should maintain much more of the waveform like you get with a fresh-out-of-the-box LP.
    on the other hand, i'll take a few pops or skips on an LP any day before a skipping CD.

    $0.02USD,
    -l
  • by MountainLogic ( 92466 ) on Wednesday February 23, 2000 @01:27PM (#1250149) Homepage
    Progress in storage follow Moore's Law rather closely for both size metrics (Areal density)
    and performance (data rate). It is easy to over state capacity of a drive technology as the manufacture can just add more disks to up the drives capacity. The real magic is increasing the areal density of the recording media. The cost of building a drive is basically fixed. Heads cost X, disks cost Y, etc. The inductry adopts the next generation technology when it becomes cost effective.
    The business model of the drive business is crazy. It take 18 months to develop a drive and it has a market life of just 6 months. The manufacturers FLY the drives to the US using cargo 747s. Also the profit margins in the drive business are razor thin.

    The drive have also evolved some very cool tech over the years. If you kill power on a drive the motor becomes a generater and powers the head into the landing zone. Today's drive include either a ARM7 or 16 bit DSP class processor. As long as you don't shock the drive (1/2 ich can kill a drive) it will last forever, unlike drives of old.

    Scott
  • They are talking about 3.9ms access times, and faster seek times because the platters are half an inch smaller, that's why it can "only" hold 18GB.
  • Yeah, yeah, we've heard it all before. Magnetic storage has been around way too long. Break out the 4000gig holographic cubes!
  • The interfaces (SCSI, IDE, Firewire) have been able to handle uncompressed broadcast quality video for a long time now... Until just recently we've needed huge disk arrays in order to handle those streams. This will probably be the first drive that can handle that on it's own (27+ MB/Sec).

    Of course it's much easier to insert faster crystals into PCI cards than it is to make the jump from 7200 to 10,000 and now 15,000 RPM's... Sad thing is, i think all but one of my drives are 5400 RPMs... But next time i need one, i'll probably just buy on the high end again.
  • by OnyxRaven ( 9906 ) on Wednesday February 23, 2000 @01:29PM (#1250155) Homepage
    Very nice - the faster seek times and latency will help for big tables in databases and such. I wonder how big these drives will get however - I'd like to see some 32gb 15k RPM SCSI-3 UW drives in a big RAID 5 array. mmmmm...

    The big question is how loud is this thing? I mean, the 10k drives i've experienced are pretty loud - loud when spinning and it sounds like someone knocking on the door when it's seeking... I can't imagine something even faster being any quieter.

    --onyx

  • Why isn't this called a 50X drive? That's how much faster it is than a 5.25" drive [delmar.edu], and that seems to be how other drive speeds are measured, based on the speed of the first popular drive of the type... :-)
  • I work for Quantum Corp. We have a 15k SCSI drive that should be out soon. Code name Thor.

    And damn does this thing fly!

    Everybody who drools over cool new tech are going to love the storage options coming out in the next few years!

    Later.

  • I can see it now. They're going to get our hopes up like this, we're all going to buy, buy, buy, while they sit, greedy eyes staring into nothingness... "Sure, it's 15k RPM, but we never said it was ultra-ata 66" (evil laughter) Them major corporations are tricky. -herd
  • by Anonymous Coward
    The noise level is about the same. I purchased my current machine in August 1998. I bought a Seagate ST39102LW drive (10k RPM, Ultra2 wide 9.1 gig). About 6 months ago, I purchased another drive: ST39103LW drive (10k RPM, Ultra2 wide 9.1 gig). As you can tell from the last number, this is a 3rd gen drive. It actually very quiet compared to the older drive, its also a little faster both in real-world and benchmarks. The trick is using less platters with higher density. I imagine that the new X15 is probably as loud as my older 9102 drive. Its too bad Seagate is changing the naming scheme to X15. ST39102LW model numbers tells so much about the drive. Anyways... peace
  • I hate to be around one of those things without ear protection. Earlier this week, an old, slow, Barracuda crashed its heads on me, and I dropped in a 7.2K or 10K Hawk (forget which one) as a replacement. Man, that thing sounds like a jet engine when spinning up.

    The story doesn't mention the Db of the 15K drive. The noise from high speed drives almost precludes them from being used on the desktop, if you keep your machine constantly on. Now that I need to get another drive, for a "semi-hot" standby replacement, I'll definitely be asking the ambient noise level before I get anything.

    It's nice to see Seagate getting back into shape. Back in the ancient times (mid-80s), they were the undisputed king of hard drives. They almost bit the dust, but are now making some pretty good iron.
    --

  • Sorry, but it is. The drives in question deliver 160MB/s.

  • by Anonymous Coward
    We all know that speed isn't everything. We want large drives that are cheap. But also smaller drives that are fast. Becasue for most people the amount of data that needs to be accessed quicky is small (eg os) while the other data (eg all those pirated games and MP3s) dont need the speed. We want a cheap 100gig 3600 rpm drive + a damn cast 15k 4.3 gig. Keep us all happy
  • You don't have to upgrade. Ultra2 Wide will work fine with an UltraWide controller, you're just limited to 40MBytes/sec.

    Since you're complaining about buying new scsi controllers, it's safe to assume you aren't planning to buy a drive capable of more than 40MBytes/sec. :)

  • For most people their harddrive is their #2 bottleneck right behind a lack of memory. If you have enough memory than it is the bottleneck. The thing I like to see here is the average access time of 3.9 ms, and either a SCSI 160 or 2GB fiber interface. Unfortunately I could not find any other details about other features of the drive. Improvements of this magnitude will have a greater effect on the average computer than an extra $200 spent for that last 50 mhz of processor speed.

    I wonder how long "trickle down technology" will take to get this to John Q Public? It is unfortunate that technology like this is never released on a broad basis. How long do we have to wait for someone to make something like this in a large scale? Whoever does so will quickly capture a substantial portion of market share if they can just make enough...

  • by SuperCujo ( 151089 ) on Wednesday February 23, 2000 @01:42PM (#1250169)
    One thing that has interested me for a while is what is the chance of a HDD fragmenting. I dont mean no data defragmentation. I mean physical defragementation.

    At 15,000 RPM can a HDD case contains the pieces. Even if the chance was 1 in a million I would like to know if I should put some more steel casing around my drive bays.

    A friend of mine has lost feeling in his foot from a flywheel in his RX7 breaking up, it broke through the bell housing, through the steel floor then through the carpet breaking his tibia. I know it is different but a piece of HDD platter could do some serious damage.

  • If the sounds of these drives are anything like their Cheetahs we may need to sue them for tinnitus aggravation.

  • >Try reading the article instead of trying to get a fast post (#6 in your case)

    Why read when I can just press (in netscape 4.x): Ctrl-F, "head",

    and find nothing (but ahead... bad pun, sorry) :-)

    BTW: I did read it... there isn't too much to read. If you can't read that in 5 minutes, might I reccomend a speed reading course? :-)

    Sure, they say 3.9 ms access, and 2.9 ms, and 2.0 ms, that doesn't rule out a head that takes 1/10th second to travel from extremity to extremity... Maybe spindle rotation is the only major important thing in storing uncompressed live motion video, but what about fileserving - for that I don't much care about RPM, I care about full head seek time.

    Noise would be important for me too - I like to listen to music while using my computer. Noisy hardrives make that difficult.
  • by dattaway ( 3088 ) on Wednesday February 23, 2000 @01:46PM (#1250173) Homepage Journal
    Now that's fast. I remember when 60ms was fast.

    Several years ago when I worked for the university, I helped throw out an old word processing system that my boss insisted was outdated (it wasn't broke, so why fix it?) It sported an old 10MB hard drive and if I remember right it was powered by a three phase motor [geocities.com]. I laugh when a person today says installing a hard drive is complicated. Today's drive weighs less than 100 pounds and doesn't require a special circuit breaker.

    Makes me want to install my advanced MFM card and see how well those state of the art IBM drives will work with my 2.2.12 kernel. Does anyone still know what RLL means anymore?
  • Oh sure, (I apologize profusely for the following cliche) rain on my parade, why don't you?

    Hey, I wonder how those, uh, watchamacallits... The 10 layer Discs with a 1gig throughput are going... Constellation 3D? Something like that. Now, if they got those into harddrive production (if it's possible, I doubt it)... Which reminds me, I need to go buy some of their stock.

  • makes ya think you should actually get an account at slashdot to collect those moderator points (positive or negative)
  • At that speed, the noise will be a fault line rupturing 0.25 Hertz!

    Let's get those puppies spinning in sync so we can slow down the spin of the earth and put more hours in a day!

  • by Anonymous Coward
    It actualy exist, or at least have existed. I remember that a friend of mine had a LP where the last track was a program for a Sinclair Spectrum. The program was ment to be started at the same time as you played the music and wow, you get a music video. (The Spectrum normaly stored programs on an audio casette recorder, through a standard line out/line in.) I don't remember the title on the LP, not even the artist/group.
  • by ubertroll ( 153053 ) on Wednesday February 23, 2000 @01:51PM (#1250180)
    If you can't stand the risk of getting killed by your hard disk, go and play with dolls instead.
  • they are???? I learned to program FORTRAN on a sperry univac that had a DRUM as a harddrive....
  • or ever a 4 terabyte one! ;-)
    --
  • by Spazmoid ( 75087 ) on Wednesday February 23, 2000 @01:53PM (#1250183)
    The things will be SCSI. Segate is aiming them at the Enterprise and upward class server market. Anyone who puts an IDE disk in an important server is an ignoramous. There anre a plethora of reasons to still use SCSI for server applications, although IDE is becoming very fast.

    1: SCSI lets you do various EASY raid arrays.
    2: The drives in a SCSI chain seek independantly of each other. The slave does not have to wait for the master.
    3: More drives per buss and longer bus length.
    4: Did I mention RAID already? Hot swappability rules. ten 10 GB disks beat four 25 GB's any day when you can pull a bad one out on the fly.
    5: With multiple smaller disks, the data is not spread as far out on the platter, increasing seek times slightly.

    I am no SCSI guru so I am sure there are more reasons!

  • I think you have got more chance being killed by dolls actually.

    You could swallow one of their cute closing eyes and choke. I dunno how the eye would find its way into your mouth though.
  • Hah!!, not only do I know the answer, I have a link for you:

    RLL==RUN-LENGTH LIMITED

    Source: the Maxtor Hard Disk Glossary [maxtor.com]

  • by shepd ( 155729 ) <slashdot.org@gmail.3.14com minus pi> on Wednesday February 23, 2000 @01:58PM (#1250190) Homepage Journal
    It is very dangerous if something like this were to crack, and fragment into tiny pieces while going at a high rate of speed. But highly improbable that it would happen. The platters are made of metal (or something similar), so they are hard to break. I know, I opened up a (dead) 1 Gig Drive the other day. I was kinda mad so I did a "manual" fdisk on it. It took about 5 minutes of beating on it with a ballpeen hammer before I split it.

    As far as fragmenting at high speeds, I experimented with that (for the danger of it...).

    [Danger Will Robinson: Don't do this unless you enjoy being blind and hospital stays. If you are really stupid, you might die... You have been warned]

    I opened up a (mostly broken) 24X cdrom. I faked it into thinking all the safeties were working fine, and got it spinning my old "abuse" shareware game CD up to full speed (ahh the irony). I closed my eyes (for some safety). I then took an exacto knife and quickly cut into the side of the disc. It shattered, and high velocity peices hit me. Fortunately not at all in the face, but they still hurt.

    And that is ONLY a 24X CDROM (how fast is that in RPMs?).

    The metal casing on a hard drive would likely be a good protection, so there is little to worry about unless you open it...
  • The speed is nice but I read an article on AnandTech.com that says that to acheive such speed, they had to reduce the plater size considerably. Meaning that these drive are curently limited to 18 gig. Not bad but it still makes you lon for those 40+ gig monstrosities that are comming out.
  • Hardly a good idea for a heard drive. Building one of these today would run $100K for just 5K+ bytes. I assume that they had 10 heads running in parallel to give word access (thnk of this as the original raid disk). This beast was a drum NOT a disk and for main memory NOT secondary memory. Very expensive to build. 17 KRPM lets see that gives you 55.5 mS max access time on you main memory or almost 6000 time slower than todays memory. Did the Univac even have a cache? I don't think so.

    -Scott
  • Very nice - the faster seek times and latency will

    Latency of the drive is not directly proportional to the RPM rate - you also have to take into account several other factors such as how many heads, the speed of those heads (how quickly it gets into position). RPMs != latency. That's a common misconception.

    There's other factors to take into account such as the Internal Transfer Rate of the drive - how fast can that head move the data? You also need to take into account the delay (electrically, not physically) to "switch heads" - you can't have all those heads reading/writing at once b/c at it's core a harddrive is a SERIAL-based system. It processes one request, then the next, then the next. Yes, it sucks, but that's how it works.. and THAT has a bigger impact on latency than rotational delay.

    Also, you mentioned that faster = noiser. No. Noise is caused by improper sound-proofing / vibration reduction. It's /that/ simple - anybody can cut their drive noise in half by putting a sock around it. I'm serious - take a sock and wrap it around your HDD. Make sure it doesn't come in direct contact with your case. Notice that whisper of noise now? Nice, isn't it? Be sure when you try this to leave the air hole on top CLEAR or you'll heat that thing up faster than an overclocked PIII without a heat sink.

  • For a preview on the drive at (duh) www.storagereview.com
  • >That's Alt-F. Oh, wait. You were using Windows, right?

    Sure was...

    (Not that I don't like Linux, I use it all the time, but I decided to watch a DVD while I posted that... :-)
  • Yes, but that was drum memory. Emphasis on 'memory'. How would you like it if your main memory was barely faster than your hard drive? Considering our main memory is now up to 400MHz (PC800 RAMBUS memory, which could be compared to 400,000,000 rpm...) in sizes of up to 512MB (which can hold approx 1073741824 decimal digits,) I think we've come a long way. So what if our hard storage only spins at 15,000 rpms; it can hold easily a terabyte in the space that your Univac drum memory took up.

    Although, I think RAMBUS still takes an hour to spin down and ten minutes to spin up... ;-)
  • by Skapare ( 16644 ) on Wednesday February 23, 2000 @02:04PM (#1250201) Homepage

    If the drive heads warmed up less than the platters, the differential expansion due to thermal changes would surely distort the spacing and change the character of the way the heads ride over the platter airflow. A difference in the temperature between the air and heads could also be a source of potential problems. I have doubts they specifically cool the heads. But perhaps they do have coolant running through everything, or maybe the outer frame.

    The heat sources would be the electronics (mostly underneath, but some are inside, such as the head pre-amps), the platter motor, and the voice coil. The better the bearings are, the lower the resistance to spin, and the less energy required to maintain RPM. But at higher RPM, the resistance increases by some formula I have long forgotten, so there will still me more energy needed, and thus more heat dissipated, to maintain RPM. Lighter platters would also help, but I'm not sure just to what degree this is once the drive has spun up. Head seeking needs to be faster and faster to meet our demands and expectations, too, and that means more energy in the voice coil to increase the acceleration.

    So, they will be very hot! But will the heads specifically need to be cooled? I doubt it. And running coolant out to the heads would likely weight them down a whole lot.

  • The motor of the YZF-R6 redlines at 15,000rpm.

    Heck, Honda hit 17,000 on their NSR500 a while ago. So, why can't hard drives spin faster than a 200-lb motorcycle engine?

    Just food for thought. What's the design bottleneck?

  • When I think about getting a 10,000 (or now 15K) drive for home use, I wonder about the additional cost in electricity usage if the drive is left on all the time for each year of ownership. Does anyone have the information to calculate this or a good feel for what an estimate might be?

  • by TheDullBlade ( 28998 ) on Wednesday February 23, 2000 @02:07PM (#1250204)
    You'd think the advantages of drums would still apply today. I bet the data density and sustained read would be a lot better (and obviously more consistent) in both cases.

    Are discs just that much cheaper or smaller, or what? I mean, a drum wouldn't fit nicely in the drive slot, but they might come in handy for high-performance web servers.

    I bet if you had some nice solid drum drives running at that speed, you could mount them in your car and use them as flywheels for regenerative braking and to hold the world's greatest portable mp3 collection.
  • Maybe speed reading is your problem. You don't go for comprehension. They made it clear that two different aspects have been sped up. In fact I thought I made it clear as well. Spindle speed and the thing that moves the drive head were both separately improved. Read the article again. SLOWLY. :)
  • MFM still works fine. I was running a 486 with 2 40 MB MFM drives (One IBM, one seagate) a short while ago with 2.2.0(pre8). One was /home, the other for / (with boot, root, bin, sbin, var, etc), and the rest was, shall we say, NFStory. NFS over arcnet [the network attached to this computer] was faster than these crappy things, anyways.

    FYI: This was with a Full length WD MFM card.

    Fun - I remember the cool sound they make. And I still have them. And the very best - a broken one with a serious head problem - it won't stop violently moving it's heads back and forth. A 5 1/4" full height drive doing this means it will move off your desk in 2 or 3 minutes.

    Nothing scares people more than when I say "hold this for a minunte" just before I power on that drive. Haha. Almost as fun as throwing charged capacitors at people (I must have been _real_ popular, huh? >:-)
  • The last HDD I took apart was a 420 MB Conner that had a head crash. The platters in that were quite substantially thick, thicker than a CD and made out of metal.

    I thought I was asking a valid question (it got a 2, Interesting). Do the HDD makers take the risk of fragmentation into account?

    If you want to insult, don't be a coward.
  • by helix_r ( 134185 ) on Wednesday February 23, 2000 @02:17PM (#1250210)

    Platter speed is not the only concern, of course. Bit density is just as important.

    There is still a long way to go. It is possible to increase the current commercial storage density by at least another order of magnitude-- I'd have to look it up. Try IBM's website, they have recently read and written in laboratory tests densities of 35.5 Gigabits per square inch.

    Other technologies include ferroelectric storage (using electric polarization instead of magnetization). This has, in theory, far greater storage density than magnetic storage because the walls of ferroelectric domains are typically thousands of times thinner than those of ferromagnetic domains.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 23, 2000 @02:17PM (#1250211)
    Yes that's 75,000,000,000 RPM. Because, assuming a 3 inch diameter platter, the speed of the outer tracks would be just hitting c. Of course, even if we could spin drives this fast, the drive would actually be slower (!) than a floppy on the outermost tracks, because, in our frame of reference, it would appear to take years for that tiny sq. nm area of metal to magnetize to store the bit, due to time dialation effects!

    The calculation of the rotational speed that gives the maximum access speed is left as an exercise for the reader.

  • Given the utterly clueless replies in this thread, I suppose I should clarify that I mean the advantages of a drum compared to a disc using the same modern material science advances etc. NOT the ancient main memory drum vs. modern RAM or even against a modern HD.
  • >an HDD platter is about the same in stiffness as a piece of cardboard nowadays

    Which drive did you open? I'd be interested to read the specs on it.

    Wouldn't cardboard platters be likely to deform if you used them in a moist environment (must be why they pack them with silica gel). :-)

    All those I've opened are about 10X tougher than the computer they are are in (this follows with time - old cases were made of what seemed to be die cast iron, so the hard drive platters are very tough, almost impossible to bend. Today's plastimetal cases usually enclose a somewhat tough, difficult to bend, set of platters, IMHO. Although I haven't opened too many new HDDs lately.).

    Oh, and hey, no need to insult (>youre an idiot). And if you feel the need to, try and make sure you post using proper capitalization and punctuation. No need to flame me for it, I'm not trying to flame you.
  • I have a Seagate 10,000rpm disk [seagate.com] that pulls 27mB/sec easily on the bonnie test. And that's with a tagged queue depth of only 8 on a UW controller. The drive supports LVD and much deeper queues, so I'm sure it can go even faster.

    Sure, faster disks are going to be nice. But they're going to be pretty demanding on the bus. If a 15,000rpm disk is even 50% faster than a 10,000rpm disk, there's not room for many neighbors on a LVD bus. Forget UW SCSI - it'd be a bottleneck with even one of these disks. Looks like it's finally time to break out the fiber...

  • Then we'll _never_ get to see Internet 3!
  • Most hard drives have current ratings right on the label. All the ones I have say something close to this:

    5VDC@0.41A
    12VDC@0.21A

    So that would less than 5W. A faster drive would probably take more juice, but even four times as much (20W) would only cost you $17.52 a year assuming 10 cents per kilowatt hour.

  • Wow, 15,000 RPM's. Putting that through my trusty calculator, thats 250 R per second. Pretty soon these things are going to be going so fast they'll injure someone if they get loose and fly out. Just think about the damage one of those things could cause inside your computer. :)


    -- Moondog
  • by Anonymous Coward
    You can watch the bits come off the platters.

    Oh, and it's "Weird".
  • 14 or so watts (I'm too lazy to calculate) during full use status for seagate 10K RPM drives, 11 watts idle for both seagate 10K RPM and 15K RPM drives.

    Not even as much power as a flourescet light bulb. :-)

    Read these links for the info:

    (10K RPM DRIVES): http://www.seagate.com/cda/products/discsales/ente rprise/tech/0,1131,223,00.shtml

    (15K RPM DRIVES): http://www.seagate.com/cda/products/discsales/ente rprise/tech/0,1131,245,00.shtml
  • I mean, the 10k drives i've experienced are pretty loud - loud when spinning and it sounds like someone knocking on the door when it's seeking... I can't imagine something even faster being any quieter.

    Why should there be a correlation between spin rate and head movement noise?


    ---
  • by snack ( 71224 )
    Comeon man,

    I've got a stock '89 Volvo 240.
    The engine has never been rebuilt, and pretty much the only work done on it is the standard every 10k maintence.

    My computer is worth more than it is (but the car does a good job carrying my computer to lan parties). I don't think that i'll be putting a turbo in it anytime soon.

    -Tim
    Yes. This is a tank.
  • >>know, I opened up a (dead) 1 Gig Drive the other day.

    If you're gonna open up a hard drive, you might as well take out the NIB magnets. NIB magnets are the most powerful permanent magnets known, and they are used in hard drives. You can do all kinds of neat things with them. They are so powerful, that you can build a compass just by setting one of these magnets on smooth surface, such as a plate. They will overcome the surface friction and point north-south! Also try dropping a NIB magnet between 2 closely spaced big aluminum CPU heat sinks. They induced eddy currents will cause the magnet to descend rather slowly.

    Have fun!

  • Ok, let's do the math...

    Circumfrence of a 3" diameter platter is 3*PI or 9.42"-ish. If this is spinning at 30,000rpm (just for fun :) the outer edge is moving at 282743ish inches per minute. This is a useless unit of measure so let's convert it to feet per second - divide by 12 and then by 60. 392 feet per second.

    I don't know off hand how forward motion correlates to centrifugal force, but if it is 1:1, then those bits of metal are attempting to spin off the drive at 392 feet per second, that's 40G's. If the outer portion of the head weighs 1 oz (very much an overestimate) then it has to withstand 40oz of force. 2.5 lbs. Distributed evenly, a piece of aluminum foil could withstand that. :)

    Now, if the head arm breaks off (don't laugh, I've seen it :), wedging one side of the platter against the drive casing, the other side of the platter is going to hit the other side of the case with 2.5lbs of force moving at 392 feet per second wedging it against the other side of the casing.

    Platters (being flat plates) are stronger in tension than compression, they may not be able to handle what amounts to a well-hit baseball impacting them on-edge if the metal used in the disk run was suspect. It could crumple an extremely brittle platter, leaving it unable to handle any remaining tension forces.

    Of course, if all of that energy from moving 2.5 lbs at 392 feet per second was used in crushing the platter, there wouldn't be any left to cause the platter to fly apart and puncture the drive casing.

    I'm sure some of the math in that was off by an order of magnitute (I'm really not at all sure about the centrifugal forces involved), but if so, it's off in the direction of safety.

    However, if a platter did disintegrate, it would sound really cool.. :)

    I would be more concerned about the turbofan on your average airliner losing a 3' blade spinning around at 500mph to slice clean through the adjacent hydraulics line causing the plane to catch fire and the pilot to lose control seconds before landing causing it to crash into the airfield.

    Oh, wait, that's already happened [panix.com].

  • by /ASCII ( 86998 ) on Wednesday February 23, 2000 @03:28PM (#1250244) Homepage
    How loud is the thing? The 7200RPM drives usually whine a lot...

    Not all HDDs are created equal. IBMs Deskstar 7200 RPM:ers are less noisy than most 5400 RPM:ers. And a 20+ GB drive costs about $200. Jikes! (Pun intended)

  • "latency" in regards to hard drives is defined as "the time it takes for the platter to turn 0.5 revolution." Using this definition, latency is inversely proportional to the spindle speed.

    --
  • At least not in the one I programmed. Nothing but drum. No core, no RAM. One gate per circuit card I think. Worked on it for about 3 years. Maybe they snuck it in by the time you got to it :-)

    --
  • 200 words per band sounds familiar. No parallel reads; all serial. 17 microsecond word time.

    I loved optimizing the instructions (one + one: 2 digit op code, 4 digit data address, 4 digit jump address (every instruction jumped)). You optimized it so as each instruction finished, the next instruction was coming up under the heads, and the data was right there too. Not nearly as bad as it sounds, because you had bands to choose from. Sort of like a 25 way cache. For example, instruction at 205 referenced data at 410 and next instruction at 615. Total 10 words, 170 microseconds. If you know "Mel the Real Programmer", that was a drum machine.

    --


  • Seagate's spin relies on latency (2 ms) and seek time (1.9 ms) and as usual, they don't tell us how they come up with those figures.

    Even if those figures are correct, that still doesn't explain how Seagate's new 15-K rpm drives would be better.

    Imagine now, you have a server, it's transaction-busy, and you need to have lots and lots of io.

    Would you rely on ONE 15-K rpm hd, or would you rather have 2 or more slower-spinning drives, maybe several, connected to raid-5 array, so to spread out the io load?

    Think of it, willya?

    A drive that spins 15-K rpm spins twice as fast as a drive that spins at 7400 rpm, that means, a 15-K rpm drives will NEVER last as long as the other one which spins half as fast.

    I would rather have a full array of 7400 rpm drives in raid5 configuration than rely on the faster spinning drives that may crash before its time, and that will certainly give me lots of headache. For crashed drives means lost data, and if my server is transaction-busy, lost data means lost income.

    Furrthermore, the recent MTBF from all HD manufacturers are almost always bogus anyway. How I long for the old time where MTBF means just that, Mean Time Between Failures.

  • Information Society did something like that on one of their albums. You hook up your tape deck to a 300 (or was it 1200?) modem and download some story off the album. I never did it myself though.
  • My Fujitsu 10K drive (which gets about 15 megabytes/second according to bonnie) is barely warm to the touch. Earlier-generation drives were really shitty (the early Cheetahs, for example), but technology has progressed, as it is wont to do, to the point now where 10K drives are pretty cool-running.

    I'd stay the hell away from these new 15K drives though until at least a couple of generations from now.

    -A.P.
    --


    "One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad

  • Hey, as great as this may sound, our quest for speed is creating hardware dangers. At 15,000 RPM, on a platter about 3" in diameter you're getting speeds around 140 mph. For those of you in metric (as we all should be) that's about 8 cm diameter, 60 feet per second, or 230 kph. That's really fast. That could break through casings and possibly sink an inch or possibly much more into soft tissue. In the right places, that can kill. Sure, the odds are low, but who wants to take that chance? (Remember the guy whose story was recently posted here because he was misidentified in a DNA match?) If it's in mass distribution, it could happen. A notable feature of Moore's law is that as technology advances, it also changes. A modern chip (Athlon, PIII, UltraSPARC, G4, Alpha, or your favorite miscellaneous supercomputer) is far more complex than the 8086 that's rusting in the next room. They did a lot more than just make it more compact for the transistors and increase the clock speed. Periodically, the technology must change qualitatively to enable further quantitative improvements. From what I can see, we should start examining more optical solutions, since that seems to be much greater opportunity in density, although it is not yet being fully exploited. Maybe holographic cubes are the answer. I recently saw some specs for an experimental quantum system (binary) that uses lasers to access data stored by bacteriorhodopsin, a chemical similar to what activates the light sensors in our eyes. They think they can make a system that would run at about PC33 speeds, with a cubic dimension of a centimeter, with 4096 storage nodes in each dimension. That's 4096x4096x4096 bits, or 8 GB, at nearly RAM speed. A few modifications, and I'll be a happy customer.
  • Does "15000rpm" strike anyone else as odd, considering that mainstream drives have spindle speeds that are multiples of 1800rpm (e.g. 5400, 7200)?

    I have a feeling that this new drive actually has a 14400rpm spindle speed -- especially since the article mentions "7,500-rpm drives". Is there actually such a thing as a 7500rpm drive, or is the author of the article just plain clueless?

    If the new drives are in fact 14400rpm, and not 15000rpm, and Seagate has the gall to market them as 15000rpm, then we might actually have a nice juicy class action lawsuit on our hands. (But then again, look at the so-called "56kbps" modems...)
  • I was told while on a site visit to IBM Alamden research center (inventors of the MicroDrive) that the most serious impediment to further progress is the fact that the head must be at least as close to the disk as the bits are spaced apart. When the bits get really close, you're only looking at a few atoms space to fit the lubricant, air bearing, protective coating on the platter, etc. This will happen when the bit density approaches 1 terabyte on the currently 340MB, quarter-sized platter of the Microdrive. At current bit densities, the MicroDrive holds about 1GB, so we're only looking at a factor of 1000 between now and what looks to be a serious wall. On the other hand, they said that a lot about transistors, and it hasn't happened yet.

    Walt
  • by starman97 ( 29863 ) on Wednesday February 23, 2000 @08:17PM (#1250303)
    Stability of a spinning drum might be a problem...
    On a drum, there's a lot of mass at the outside, with a disc, only the outermost rim is moving as fast as the entire surface of the drum. At low RPM's , not a problem, a drum would optimize the read/write speed, but if you want low latency, you have to spin it fast.
    Imagine a 5 inch diameter metal cylinder spinning at 15,000 rpm sitting on your desk? It'd make a mess if that came apart, or a bearing failed.

    Running a linear voice-coil across the drum or multiple linear arrays of heads would be required to get track density up to disc track density.

    Lesse.. 3 inch platter, spinning 15,000 Rev/minute, at the rim, thats 98 ft/sec, speed of sound is 1090 ft/sec, or 66MPH , so they could spin them faster by a bit...
    And... a 3inch platter has 28 sq inch on a side, while a 3inch high,3inch diam drum has 84 sq inch, roughly the usable area of 2 platters, both sides...
  • UNIVAC then went on to build, in the 1970s, the biggest drum memory device of all time, the FASTRAND [fourmilab.ch]. 90 megabytes. 880 RPM. This monster had two drums six feet long, and weighed two and a half tons. Special cast concrete mounting pads were required.

    UNIVAC stayed with drums longer than any other vendor, but the FASTRAND was just too much. They bought a disk manufacturer (ISS) and went to disks. So the FASTRAND ended the drum era.

  • yeah, but they are making cam's and the like out of titanium and pricier metals. The bottleneck is price and reliability.

    Try pegging one of these engines at 17,000 rpm for several hours on end and you will be the owner of one expensive semi-solid chunk of metal.

    Instead of comparing peak RPM with sustainable RPM, lets compare similar things. Look at a modern Formula 1 racing engine (i.e. an engine capable of sustaining high RPM for a "long" time). In a recent Car and Driver they do the math to look at acceleration and masses involved. The average piston weighs 14.9 ounces. These engines redline at about 18,000 RPM. If you work out all the math, at that RPM the piston accelerates from a dead stop to ~100 MPH in ~46mm. To top that it does this 600 times per second. All of this translates to 9000 pounds of force being exerted on the sysetem every 1/600th of a second. Want to be on the wrong end of that when it explodes?

    Similarly Chrysler was designing an electric (?) race car a while back that stored extra energy in a flywheel. To protect the crew they had to encase the whole thing in several layers of Kevlar after one tore apart and caused some serious damage.

    Anyway, point of all of this is, cost keeps us back. Note that these things all come from expensive racing programs and most don't last for more then a few hours w/o a rebuild anyway.

    I'm sure with current technology we could build a hard drive that could "peak" at much higher rates, but that couldn't sustain them. Following the motorcycle example, these special bikes spin at a rate about twice that of a "normal" bike.

    So what do you say... how about a hard drive that peaks at 30,000rpm... now that would be something

    MIKEOC
  • I remember my friend showing me a SCSI hard drive a few years back they had somehow gotten to go spin faster than it was supposed to, and generate enough centripetal force to knock over the entire computer case. Quite amusing.
  • <blockquote>The manufacturers FLY the drives to the US using cargo 747s</blockquote>

    Has anyone ever worked out the bandwidth of one of these planes if you loaded up the drives with data before shipping. I guess the drives weigh 100g each, and a cargo 747 must be able to carry 100 tons, so thats approx 1 million drives (reality check, this is a pile 10m x 15m x 2m, should fit in easily), so a single flight carries about 18 PB (peta bytes, 10^15 bytes) of data. Say it can make one delivery every other day, that is about every 180000 seconds, so we get a bandwidth of 100GB/s, or 800 Gb/s -- who needs project Oxygen (320 Gb/s transocean cabling) anyway?

    "Latency" do I hear someone ask? "Don't be small minded!" I say. Latency can be dealt with by proper caching strategies at a higher level of the protocol stack.

    Steve Linton

    PS a 100 000 ton cargo ship full of these things does even better.
  • Wow. I really like these drives going faster and faster. I can't wait till they break the light barrier. Imagine a harddisk that spins faster than the speed of light. Due to time dilation, your requested data will arrive before you even requested it! That would be a solution to a lot of problems. Of course, there's the problem that it's impossible for matter to go faster than the speed of light, but hey, one has got to fantasize, right?

    ----------------------------------------------
  • I have a 52X Kenwood, and lately it's been getting more picky about what CD's it wants to read. I'm also getting more and more buffer underruns while copying from that drive, so I have to copy through the HD. Never had that problem with my previous CD Reader. Seems like I've been reading reports on low reliability around the newsgroups also.
    When it's working, it's a very fast drive! Too bad it doesn't rip audio as fast as my Sony CDRW though.

    Now perhaps there's a firmware update, I just haven't gotten around to checking yet...
  • 15,000 rpm. That's 500 rpm SLOWER than the redline of a Yamaha R6 [motorcycle.com] motorbike.

    HH
  • by hawk ( 1151 ) <hawk@eyry.org> on Thursday February 24, 2000 @05:50AM (#1250352) Journal
    I think it's in the jargon file; I just remember it as a bit of folklore :)

    Usenet used to rely on the arpanet backbone where available, but most sites got their feed through modems. Sending email (off arpanet) required knowing not only the destination address, but the path of every machine that the message would hop along the way (but this was easy if responding to a post; just send it back from whence it came). To email me from back east you would have sent to
    something like

    !lilcompanyvax!decvax1!decvax5! ... !berkley!prime3!hawk@olivetti.atc

    gad, it's been a while; maybe I have that in the wrong direction,
    and I don't remember the names of the machine, but I think that
    was my final address. i

    Oh, and of the 30 or so newsgroups at the time, it seems to me that two were devoted to finding paths to people. Basically, a lot of posts like, "Does anyone have a path to George Jones at Olivetti in Cupertino?" If George knew your were looking for him, he would read those newsgroups until he found your message (or grep the newsspool :)--once he saw it, he could send a message right back up the same path. If he didn't, maybe you'd be lucky and someone else would see it; maybe not.

    Anyway, I was saying that most sites got it through modem. Then there
    were the sites that didn't, which got it by tape (Australia?), leading
    to the observation,

    "Never underestimate the bandwith of a [station wagon|747] full of
    nine track tapes."

    or something like that.

    /end{reminisce}
  • I don't know why it only occurred to me in the last few days instead of years ago, but . . .

    Density has gotten high, but if you want to hit two or three drives at once (swap, usr, tmp, home), you still need multiple drives. What about building a drive for which the groups of platters were separately accessible for different blocks of heads? You might even make it configurable--three groups of head-steppers, and a platter could attach it's heads to any of them?

    This clearly wouldn't be a solution for servers, but it would seem to offer some huge benefits for workstations.
  • I mean, what more can you say? you ROCK! This reminded me of abusing CD's in another way. When I went to school and worked at the campus newspaper, we got a LOT of music cd's for "review." It was cool when you got good ones but there was inevitably a lot of crap. I mean you put it on and listend to three songs, everyone either agreed it sucked or some poor soul took it home. Then we went to the parking lot after the press ran and had "the CD Discus Olympics (open division)". Cd's from the local pressing plant were extremely light and cheap and if you threw 'em high, they would shatter into a goodly number of pieces upon impact with the asphault..... :)
    ---
  • Last fall, Seagate announced their 73GB SCSI drives. You can easily find data sheets and other specs on their Web site [seagate.com].

    We're still waiting...deeply buried in their Web site (or maybe not) is a quiet mention that the drives are expected out Q1 or Q2 of 2000.

    So, it's nice to see the advance to 15KRPM, but this doesn't mean you'll be able to buy one anytime soon! Seagate seems to savor the big announcement about new tech waaaayyyy in advance of when you will actually be able to buy it.

  • As I've mentioned here before, I've got a copy of an old Interface Age magazine in my garage that has in it a "floppy ROM" - one of those cheesy flexible LPs they used to put in magazines and books that contains a BASIC ROM for an old Z-80 or 8080 computer.

    Although I never used it, I know people that did. (I didn't have a computer then, I just read about them and dreamed about the cool stuff from Imsai, Altair, The Digital Group (the coolest looking computers), Compucolor (wow, color graphics!), and SW Technical Products (possibly history's ugliest terminal.))

    Back then there was something called the "Kansas City Standard" which was a big deal at the time because it brought interoperability to audio cassette tape data storage. The folks who did Flexi-LPs like these just pressed the KC Std. audio onto the disc, then all you needed was the correct adapter to plug the audio output from the turntable (well, a pre-amp, actually, since you didn't get line-level output from most turntables) to the KC interface box that you would normally plug into the cassette player.

    It wasn't fast, but it was pretty robust: there was enough slop in the spec that you could usually read copies of copies of copies of tapes. (We're not talking quality copies here, folks, just hooking together whatever two cassette decks you could find.)

    Wow, I sound a lot older than 37, don't I?
  • No kidding! We had an IBM RS6000 that took 36 minutes from power-on to login-prompt.

    Needless to say, fixing boot problems on this machine was a nightmare. You would come in at midnight, bring the machine down, and have time for less then a dozen boot attempts in an 8 hour window before you had to have it working the next morning. That damn machine took years off our lives.
  • Of course, you should still worry about the noise even if it's not audible. Ultrasonic noise can do damage to our ears just as easily as normal noise, even if there aren't any harmonics in our range of hearing.
  • You can get drives like that, they're used in the record to hard drive boxes. One is used for reading, and one for writing, so you can do both at the same time.

C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas l'Informatique. -- Bosquet [on seeing the IBM 4341]

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