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Hardware

24-Hour Power Cells for Wearable PCs 116

Posted by CmdrTaco from the gimme-more-of-that-wearable-love dept.
Stacey Brewer sent us linkage to a press release from Xybernaut DCH Technology to work on 24-hour fuel cells for use with their Mobile Assistant: a crazy little wearable that yes, will run Linux. I need a demo unit, darnit!
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24-Hour Power Cells for Wearable PCs More

24-Hour Power Cells for Wearable PCs

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  • Go I love technology. Soon my toaster will be running Linux. My phone will be FreeBSD though :)

  • Re:Is there anything we can't do? (Score:3)

    by trollking ( 153214 ) on Thursday February 17, 2000 @11:52PM (#1263024) Homepage
    my fridge will run freebsd, but my toilet will run windows.

    Thank You,
    Troll King
  • Sounds interesting, but the fuel (O2,H2) for fuels cells is inherently dangerous (ie, explosive). Plus the by-product, water, needs a place to go. (I guess you could drink it.)

    So, I'm not sure fuel cells go well with being directly attached to a person's body (heat issues also). However, fuel cells in cars is another issue entirely.

    In a car, the potential for explosion is negligibly equal to gasoline. The by-product of water is much cleaner than anything to date. The heat can be expelled to the environment with making the passengers uncomfortable.

    I wonder how Xybernaut & DCH Tech will deal with these issues.

  • Details? (Score:3)

    by esperandus ( 97729 ) on Friday February 18, 2000 @12:04AM (#1263027) Homepage
    While the idea is interesting in and of itself, the press release does not seem to link to a detailed technical description (at least at first glance). Fuel cell technology is efficient and environmentally benign, but to get a reasonable amountof power you traditionally need a lot of membrane stacks [and space]. A power supply that takes up a good amount of space is not something that would ssem to be partuicularly beneficial to a wearable computer.

    In addition, the oxidant the cells actually use is not mentioned. Although it is assumedly hydrogen, we cannot be sure. The questions of storage and cost rear their ugly-ish heads as well. Of sourse, there is also the exhaust (probably water). Where will it be disposed?

    How much power is the unit supposed to provide? What power usage are tehy assuming in oredr ot arrive at the 24 hour usage potential? Etc etc etc etc. All in all, the statement seems more product of marketdroid hyperbole than anything else.

    Can somebody actually provide any of the details? Did I miss something obvious? I found nothing relevant in the technical FAQ, the support area, or the company info...so, what should we make of this announcement?

  • Re:Details? (Score:3)

    by Yardley ( 135408 ) on Friday February 18, 2000 @12:08AM (#1263028) Homepage
    Here's DCHT Tech's explanation of their fuel cell technology:

    http://www.dcht.com/prod/pem.htm [dcht.com]

    It should answer some of your questions, but it doesn't appear to be all worked out.
  • I've never understand why the fact that fuel cells use explosive fuels is a problem. Isn't gasoline as or more explosive than o2 and h2?
  • running windows on a toilet ? isnt ms already full of crap ?

  • i would suggest a beowolf cluster of these, but that would require actually *interacting* with *real people*

  • Re:Some issues (Score:3)

    by Yardley ( 135408 ) on Friday February 18, 2000 @12:15AM (#1263032) Homepage
    For those of you interested in the car side of this issue, here's a link to a different company which is making fuel cells in connection with automobile companies. One thing of interest: California will be requiring 10% of all car's sold to be Zero Emission Vehicles in the year 2004. I, for one, can't wait.

    www.ballard.com [ballard.com]

    www.drivingthefuture.org [drivingthefuture.org]

    What is a Fuel Cell? [drivingthefuture.org]
  • Thank you. Very helfful. Of course, as you pointed out, they still have to deal with the exhaust and heat emissions. However, both of these should be rather small at the at which this unit operates. I am more interested in how they managed to reduce the mount of platinum neede to catalyze the reaction, and precisely how much is required. Both items are conspicuoulsy absent from the technical description. A price would also be a *little* helpful.
  • if you get a demo unit can we play with it to?

    as much as I think one of these things would be cool
    there is unfortunatly no way I will ever afford one, or be in a posistion to get a demo unit :)

    keep us all in mind if ya do ;)

  • This Should Be Given Much More Attention (Score:5)

    by gilgongo ( 57446 ) on Friday February 18, 2000 @12:38AM (#1263038) Homepage Journal
    Power issues for mobile devices will prove to be a real rain on the their parade.

    I've read what seems like 10,000 articles in the popular (and even technical) press that predict mobile computing will be super huge in 3 to 5 years time. Here in Europe, we'll have GPRS and 2Mb/s on our handheld devices by 2002 (apparently), so journos are predicting we'll have full-motion video feeds, etc., on our cellphones and the like.

    Well, we might, but we'll also have to develop full-on biceps to carry the batteries that will have to power the things.

    More reserch money for power!

    G
  • Err..which one do they use for rocket fuel?
    And, have you ever seen a wearable that is powered by gasoline?

    --
  • These are a couple of key lines found on the DHC site...
    • The customer must be able to afford to pay for the product and perceive that he or she is getting value for her or his money
    • While there certainly are no guarantees...
    • People cannot visit their local Wal-Mart or gas station and purchase hydrogen to run their fuel cells

    i.e. It's not quite ready for prime-time.

    - - - -

  • we'll also have to develop full-on biceps to carry the batteries

    Well, you could get a unicycle, and put one of those generators on the wheel...

    - - - -

  • If you look at this link [geocities.com] you'll find that you're not the first person to make this comparison.
  • Yes, hydrogen is dangerous but fuel cells have a beehive-like structure with micro cells containing the fuel,
    so an explosion is very unlikely to occur: they made this kind of design specifically to avoid danger.
    Also, I'm not sure but I think the water comes out as vapor and in very small amounts, so it doesn't have a noticeable effect.
    I read all this stuff on a Wired article last year, so take this with a grain of salt... also, I don't know if they use the same technology in building fuel cells.

  • In a car, the potential for explosion is negligibly equal to gasoline. The by-product of water is much cleaner than anything to date.

    I really love fuel cell discussions:) It's such a GREAT technlogy, espically the car aspect.

    This is what I don't get, we've had this technology for quite awhile, and yet we don't see this in everyday use of cars. It'd be so cool to have your exhaust be water. I even bet like you said we could drink it. Imagine that, have the water go into a tank, then when you're thirsty just drink from the tank of your car. There might be some type of health issues with it perhaps, but you'd figure putting Hydrogen and Oxygen together you get water that you can drink or another idea, is to have the water go into a tank and then have it separated back into hydrogen and oxygen to be put back together and you could almost never have to refuel.

    I still fail to see the reason why we haven't had this for years, the only thing I can think of is maybe it's because of the oil industry or something that doesn't want it. Speaking of the oil industry, we wouldn't have to put up with the expensive gas prices if we ALL were using this on our car. The whole fuel cell concept is great and I really love it. This is coming from someone who doesn't care what trees we cut down, just as long as they plant new ones to cut down again. :->

  • Ehh..about the can't use it at tests thingie...as I have understood it, school is there to prepare you for your grown-up life, it's not a goal in itself to have high grades. And, more importantly, your boss will not care if you use this kind of device in your daily work(well, he might if you do representative work).
    Btw, there's nothing that says that this kind of device has to be visible to the rest of the world.

    D*mn, I had to look augmentation up in a real book, Lexin(eng-swe online dictionary) didn't have it..

    --
  • What!
    Is there some kind of space-time perturbation?

    No ac has yet suggested to make a beowulf cluster out o' them.

    I don't know wether I should find this reassuring or not...

  • Add cost to the list (Score:3)

    by milliyear ( 132102 ) on Friday February 18, 2000 @01:27AM (#1263048)
    I noticed that the lithium batteries for their current product are listed as providing 4 to 6 hours runtime. So at 12 to 24 hours runtime, you are only talking about lasting 2 to 4 times as long. Yes, I know 2 to 4 times longer IS a big deal, but can they bring it in at 2 to 4 times the cost of the current batteries? And the lithiums are easily rechargeable with a plug-in adapter. How will they distribute Hydrogen? Home electrolysis units? And, IIRC, the Space Shuttle fuel cells have a useful life of 2400 hours. How will these compare? The lithiums are supposed to be rechargeable 500 times.

    I really do hope they answer all the questions we've raised. I'm not convinced that their application sounds like a hit in the marketplace, but, as others have mentioned, there are plenty of other applications for fuel cells of all shapes and sizes.

  • Existing Battery Technology (Score:3)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 18, 2000 @01:28AM (#1263049)
    There is some current batery technology that will already provide power for up to 21hrs.

    Lithium Ion SuperPolymer batteries..
    http://www.electrofuel.com [electrofuel.com]

    Although fuel cells dont have a recharging problem... how will you store extra fuel?
  • Hydrogen can be prepared easily through simple electrolysis of water. Purification of the sample is also trivial. Commercial untis are lieky to be available (if they are not, I have a great busines idea for you VCs out there...)

    Incidentally, there actually are gas staions that sell hydrogen (in germany and in North Dakota; bith as 'proof of concept' thingies). Oxidant production will not be a problem.

    Price and value, OTOH...has anyone checked out the latest asking price for platinum? [kitco.com]

  • Xybernaut reportedly has a more affordable consumer model (MA V) due in the third quarter of this year. It likely won't be -cheap-, but at least less than the current $5000-$8000. Personally, I'm going to be waiting until this comes out before I buy one myself (planning to use it as my primary college computer (^o^).

    Groovy thing is, some rumors say that the new model will be using Crusoe (Xybernaut has an NDA with Transmeta).

    BTW, the reason the price is currently up so high on the MA IV is that Xybernaut primarily sells to large firms or the government, who really don't care about the price, but rather the return they receive.
  • There might be some type of health issues with it perhaps, but you'd figure putting Hydrogen and Oxygen together you get water that you can drink or another idea, is to have the water go into a tank and then have it separated back into hydrogen and oxygen to be put back together and you could almost never have to refuel. This is called a perpetual machine and it's already been proven that it doesn't exist. It breaks one helluvalot of basic physic's rules. Just think of entropy and energy losses.
  • . Speaking of the oil industry, we wouldn't have to put up with the expensive gas prices if we ALL were using this on our car.
    Speaking as someone connected with the oil industry (to my shame), unless you live in the states, you don't know what expensive gas (or petrol) is. Considering the enourmous costs and financial uncertainty behind oil exploration and production it is amazing that the larger companies don't charge more (yet!).

    Here in the UK most (nearly all) of the cost of fuel is in the form of tax - we would probably end up paying the same tax on fuel cells just as soon as they were the norm.

    This is coming from someone who doesn't care what trees we cut down, just as long as they plant new ones to cut down again.
    Not so easy to do that with fossil fuel, unless you want to wait a few million years :->

  • Re:Some issues (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    | What do the use for rocket fuels?

    Hydrazine
    (H2N2)
    explosive, unstable, carcinogenic, ordorless*.

    * to most people, 1-10% of humans express a genotype that enables them to smell it. There are no reliable figures here.

  • Re:This can't be /. anymore! (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Actually....someone already has. Rest assured that /. is still what it always has been.

    And while it's true that every time a new processor comes out some jackass will suggest making a beowulf cluster of the thing, in this case the comment is well put (i.e. it will require interaction with "Real People (tm)"). The only question is, what form will this interaction take? I can see it now, the geek pick-up line of the future.....

    Hey baby, wanna head back to my place and beowulf our clusters?

    And if you think about it, "SMP" isn't very reassuring either...

  • I would tend to wonder what else we would need.

    First, you have your small handheld PCs...

    Next, broadband wireless...

    Now, this.

    Imagine all the people....walking down the street looking uat porn...err...I mean...surfing the web.

    hurray for technology!

  • Xybernaut Love-fest hypocritical? (Score:4)

    by cshotton ( 46965 ) on Friday February 18, 2000 @02:52AM (#1263058) Homepage
    Everyone loves the fact that Xybernaut is building their technology around Linux. But it's clear that the sentiments of the Linux community lean strongly against using patents to control the marketplace.

    Is anyone as troubled as I am by the following excerpt from their press release?

    This combination of expanded battery life in conjunction with our patent portfolio of more than 450 patent applications awarded and pending will further position Xybernaut to maintain its leading role in the wearable computing industry.

    Sounds a lot like they're preparing to crawl up the backside of anyone who tries to play in their sandbox, Open Source or not.

  • unless you live in the states, you don't know what expensive gas (or petrol) is

    Excuse me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't you "s/unless/if/"? I'm from the Netherlands and over here 75/80% of the gasprize is tax. This week we reached an all-times high with NLG 2.51 per liter. That's about $5 per gallon.

    You are right, if we were all driving on the friendly fuell, the government would still put high taxes on it.

    Thimo
    --
  • Oops, only the first line is mine, the rest should be marked as a quote.

    --

  • Great that we may have FMV on our phones, but why? I use my phone mostly for chats with friends, and the last thing I want to see when sitting back in a chair with my eyes closed is their mug staring out of my little phone. That last sentence does actually assume I have transparent eyelids, but you get the message :-)

    The present trend for mobiles is making them smaller and more unobtrusive which makes the idea of watching TV or videophone on a tiny handset rather annoying. The current generation of children will all grow up with eye problems anyway from staring at Microvitec Cubs &c. for so many years.

    There has been talk in the press over the last few years of making roll-out screens - what's the latest?

    Then again, my Nokia 6150 phone has a battery life of a few days, which is more than enough, but apparently if you have a phone with a vibrating alarm, it soaks up batteries.

    Let's all look forward to a vibrating Psion with loads of power, which is small, and can be used for fax, email, and phone in one package!

  • $5,489 for the base unit with HMD, and all you get is a lowly P200, a tiny little 32mb of ram and a pathetic 2.1gb hard drive so you can run linux/win98/whatever, but not very well. But you can upgrade to a P233 and 64mb for only ~$800 more! Or for $6,971 you get the P233, 128mb ram and a 4.3g drive... WHAT AN AMAZING DEAL.

    PFFT. I want a wearable, but there's no way I'd allow myself to get ripped off by these guys for such a shitty system. Maybe someone will come out with one of these with a Crusoe, 128mb+, and at least a 6g hard drive for $2500.

  • Fuel cells and air travel (Score:2)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Considering how explosive hydrogen is, I can't see the FAA, or any other airline safety authority for that matter, approving fuel cell use while onboard a plane.

    That would pretty much rule out using hydrogen fuel cells in a situation (long-haul flights) where they'd be most desirable.
  • O2 and H2 being dangerous for being explosive is just not true. If it is stored properly. That is, in chemical compounds. I saw a documentary that demonstrated the effects of a rifle shot to a tank filled with h2 in a chemical compound. It didn't explode, it just fizzled empty. A small flame was there but the temperature was nothing like the explosion caused by similar tank filled with gasoline.

    And as far as the by-product goes.It can be used as source material when the fuel cell is recharged. Ever heard of electrolysis?

    Heat in a fuel cell is negligible. Laptops generate about the same amount of heat.

    I think that we would use cars powered with hydrogen if Oil Companies weren't so powerful and if Hindenburg hadn't exploded.

  • Or running one enormous Beowulf project ...
  • ...the military applications of a 24-hour cell seem nil. Especially in extensive operations, where troops won't be returning to any sort of centralized base for several days.
    Mind you, this stuff seems great. But if they can't use it, I doubt the government will offer it too much support.
    -Ravagin
    "Ladies and gentlemen, this is NPR! And that means....it's time for a drum solo!"
  • If I could unplug the power pack and use it to jump start my car.

    All this technology is very useful - but if I can't get to work in the mornings ......:)
  • So if O2/H2 mix is as dangerous as petrol, why not just have a cheaper portable I/C generator whith a fuel tank in our back pockets :)

    Hey!......look out with that ciggarette!.........BOOOOOOM!!!!

    Great Balls of Fire!
  • my fridge will run freebsd, but my toilet will run windows

    The application FLUSH.EXE has performed an illegal operation exception and will be terminated. Please close all err..umm...applications and prepare to run PLUNGER.EXE.

  • we'll also have to develop full-on biceps to carry the batteries that will have to power the things.

    Your right! These gadgets should become heavier not lighter. Girls would then flock after musclebound geeks weighed down with all the latest mobile computing devices. We should persuade Transmeta to drop Crusoe and develop a linux laptop with sheet-metal casing and lead-acid batteries instead.

    HH

  • In addition, the oxidant the cells actually use is not mentioned. Although it is assumedly hydrogen, we cannot be sure.

    Ummm...

    Could it be...

    wait for it...

    Oxygen?

  • And they could float like a balloon!
  • And it has a huge sphere in the back (pressure tank) to store the hydrogen.

    Refueling is not trivial, since you are dealing with either high pressure gas or cryogenic liquid.

    Gasoline engines are used because they are easy to make and easy to use.

    And cheap.

  • I would not trust Windows with my toilet. It overflows enough as it is.
  • I'll admit that I have next to no idea about how fuel cells work, but if they could be produced to use alkanes, they would have various advantages. The longer ones are less flammable, liquid at room temperature, and can be produced from crude oil.
  • No, your toilet will run MacOS. [userfriendly.org]


    Make Seven
  • Sorry, my mistake, I did mean "if". Long day, etc.
  • You're quite right about it being safe to store hydrogen for fuel cells in other chemical forms, such as methanol, which does not burn as easily as and releases less energy when it does than petrol (sorry, gasoline - I forgot we speak Merkin on this list). Methanol is also quite popular as an option with those oil companies who also deal in natural gas, which might well be one of the reasons why methanol fuelled fuel cell vehicles look like being the first we'll get.

    It's not the only one though - as well as the safety reasons given above in consideration of fire, methanol is also much easier to store and transport than hydrogen, is available in large quantities, is less toxic than petrol/gasoline or diesel, and doesn't release much in the way of pollution.

  • Okay, now I want one of those high-powered Morton Thiokol [mortonintl.com] computer power cells.

    Um.. Rockwell builds the Shuttle engines [nasa.gov]; Morton Thiokol builds the solid rocket boosters.

  • Ugh, Its happening :-(. I had to pay a $3,000 Dollar Fuel Consumption tax on my Saleen S351 :-(

    Mostly Due the fact I probably get 6-7 Mpg but how is that *my* fault?

    OH well I am going to drive fast till the gas runs out :P
  • As long as they're not software patents, I'm not the slightest bit troubled by it.
  • I've used the Xybernaut, and it's not much fun after the first 5 minutes of initial excitement. Unless you have a situation where it is really required (where I work, scientists use them in the lab so they can easily enter data while they work), there is no point in having one of these. It has a display/touch-screen that you strap to your wrist -- actually it takes up most of your forearm. And there is a big, bulky belt that holds the battery and port-replicator. The headset is huge and heavy and has wires coming out all over the place.

    Better to get a palm or laptop. Wearables won't really be practical for personal use until we can fit them to a pair of eye glasses.
  • ...the military applications of a 24-hour cell seem nil. Especially in extensive operations, where troops won't be returning to any sort of centralized base for several days.

    Think again. For electronic applications, carrying sufficient fuel would be easier than carrying sufficient batteries. For powering vehicles, the potential bennies are even greater: not only are fuel cells more efficient than ICEs -- implying a greater range per unit of fuel -- but they run cleaner, cooler, and much quieter making them potentially less detectable.

    Anyway, if you check out the background [dcht.com] on the DCHT website, you'll see that this particular flavor of fuel cell came out of Los Alamos National Laboratory. I'd say that the US military is probably aware of the potential.

  • That quote to me sounds like they're trying to crawl up the stock market or be prepared to do so.

    Patents make a product look even better as an investment as they appear to be able to lock out the competition. When a company boasts of patents it reeks of BUY OUR STOCKS, WE'RE A GOOD BUY!

  • Re:? (Score:1)

    by Shanep ( 68243 )
    Nice try. :)
  • No! No! No! Phones should be OpenBSD due to security issues! ;-)

    (Although the PGPphone code might come in handy.)*grin*

    The Tick - "Spoon!"

  • This is the ultimate "vaporware".

    [Humor key: Fuel cells release water vapor]


    --

  • For those interested in more than a press release: Thanks to Patrick Salsbury, who hosts the list and who provided the above links in an earlier Slashdot thread.
  • Seriously though, this is way interesting. Especially if you could figure out a way combine the fuel cell with the equipment necessary to render the H20 by-product back into it's original, separate parts! Sure, maybe the thing might be as big as the Xybernaut itself, so wear it on the other hip, or get a frame-mount backpack for the whole rig. Of course, the obligatory cell phone could be built right into the whole deal, with the cell modem (screw satellite), a video camera and mic... Ahhhh, the possibilities. According to this months popular science, somebody developed a little $1 chip smaller than my pinky finger nail (an im not a big guy) that actually functions as a web server capable of up to 7,200 hits an hour and understands TCP/IP. With high bandwidth connections and a good VR environment, web servers embedded in *everything*, and displays being built into eyeglasses even as we speak, why would you ever need to leave home... or rather, ever physically go there?

  • If I remember correctly, last time I heard about xybernaut they were in hot financial waters. Part of the peril of being ahead of your time -- wearable computers will be efficient and affordable at some point, but they sure aren't now.

    So how much of this is just speculation to increase their stock valuation (if they have stock) or to get more vc?

    Anyway, they do need a web admin with minimal experience, and they're in my hometown. Hmmm... Employee Discount?

  • Actualy the Motorola cell design seems like more of an option.
    Here's an article in EE Times [eetimes.com] about it.

    That is if they can get more voltage out of it.


    The Tick - "Spoon!"

  • Re:Xybernaut Love-fest hypocritical? (Score:3)

    by karb ( 66692 ) on Friday February 18, 2000 @06:42AM (#1263099)
    Most people in the linux community are bothered only by software patents. I would guess that if they had 450 patents, and we've heard of none of them, that they're primarily hardware.

    And they do have some pretty cool hardware. They're based in my current hometown, and had a little demo at the fairfax county fair, which I saw before seeing They Might Be Giants. There are no screens like 1-inch screens that nobody else can see. "Sure boss, I'm working. (slashdot slashdot slashdot)"

  • Things like this seem to point me in the direction of thought that we need to develop a totally new technology that doesn't use so much power/resources to do the same tasks.
    It may very well be IMHO that we're barking up the wrong development/research tree by trying to improve the current technology instead of creating something new.

    Is there something better? is what I think we should be asking. While the fuel-cell research is a step towards this I think we need to re-create the other side of the hardware/power-source coin before any of this will do any good.



    The Tick - "Spoon!"
  • The site seems to be /.'d already. :-(

    The Tick - "Spoon!"
  • They don't have to use Hydrogen - see my earlier posts about one using Methanol or go here. [eetimes.com]



    The Tick - "Spoon!"
  • As long as they're not software patents, I'm not the slightest bit troubled by it. Hmmm. Well, it certainly seems hard to imagine how you can generate 450+ patent applications of what is essentially commoditized component hardware parts repackaged into a smaller form factor without including some software.

    Don't you think an idiotic hardware patent on the order of "a computer hardware device designed to be worn by the user" is just as stifling to innovation as a software patent on something like "one click ordering"? It seems a bit hypocritical to limit yourself to saying that you only care about software. That, or it's pretty narrow-minded since a hardware product of any signficance has to include a substantial amount of software these days just to compete.

  • If we're going to be wearing an electrical device, why not try to power it from our own bodies? I'm sure I saw some research into this a while ago. Can't remember the details, but if the technology becomes small enough, and low powered enough, it should be possible.
  • It's funny but I actually ran across something on one of the multimedia sites (sorry can't find the link at the moment) of how to use use a standard laptop with a pair of $500 display glasses and a chording keyboard/mouse as a "wearable". Not too bad if you get a light notebook and wear it in a small satchel - or maybe a Libretto or Sony Picture Book. =-)



    The Tick - "Spoon!"
  • I think the solution will lie more in miniturization and optimization on the pc end than it will increased life and power on the battery end. When a tiny, fiber optic display can be projected on to the retina or onto a pair of glasses, and when we have pentium-level power in a calculator-sized package, we'll have portable/wearable computing that will match or, more likely exceed today's hopes and expectations.

  • You're probably dead-on here. For instance I can see a modified hydrogen phone being used as a shaped charge to de-pressurize the plane. Use a half-dozen and you could concievably blow out a large section by "perfing" the surrounding material until it separates.

    But then you could also concievably use a knife hidden in a PDA case to threaten the pilot too. No technology is without some risk. It's our personal ethics and responsibility that allow us to use it without killing ourselves wholesale. (Industrial pollution and nuke threat not withstanding.)



    The Tick - "Spoon!"
  • The Matrix here we come!

    *grin*



    The Tick - "Spoon!"
  • Early models will have the clunky 'star trek' flat screen video that will get attention from curiosity seekers and technophiles but ultimately, as you say, prove to be more of an annoyance and power drain than anything else.

    Given that, I think that the video display will quickly evolve into a flexible goose-necky thing that sprouts out of the handset so as to be easily positioned near your eye. It might double as a camera to broadcast your picture, but there will probably also be a jack for an external, extreemly lightweight 'lapel' video cam, that you will see clipped to the visors of hats and whatnot.

    The idea of video/phones, once it arrives in some commonly usable form, will remain in demand, but will evolve to embrace the desire for privacy and low power requirements.

  • Back up now.

    The Tick - "Spoon!"
  • Just a note, hydrogen burns really well, but it doesn't really detonate. It tends to disperse too quickly. People get this image of the Hindenburg going down in flames and they think, "Oh, my look at all that hydrogen burning!". But you'll note, the Hindenburg, even all aflame, actually settled to the ground fairly gently, primarily because its gas cells were still largely intact and leaking only slowly. Not to mention that when hydrogen burns, it's a colorless to blue flame. What really caused the problems on the Hindenburg was the waterproofing agent coating outer canvas skin. They've tested some surviving fragments, turns out the waterproofer was pretty much rocket fuel and highly flammable. So hydrogen, particulary in small amounts is not all that dangerous. Mind you, an open flame around a car battery (which generates hydrogen) isn't all that bright an idea, but I wouldn't be too concerned with a few milliliters of H2 on a plane in a small hardened container (like a CO2 cartridge for a pellet gun perhaps).
  • Getting slightly offtopic here, but another interesting company is Plug Power [plugpower.com], a subsidiary of GE that's developing fuel cells for the home market. (Not only do I get 7kW of power, but hot water, too!) Their site also has a lot of info on the latest fuel cell technology.

    Also, Manhattan Scientifics (sorry, no URL) has been working on micro fuel cells for cell phones and portable computers that are powered by methanol.

    All of the fuel cell companies have been doing extremely well on the stock market since the beginning of the year.
  • Sounds interesting, but the fuel (O2,H2) for fuels cells is inherently dangerous (ie, explosive). Plus the by-product, water, needs a place to go. (I guess you could drink it.)

    Since hydrogen is such a pain to handle, store, etc., a lot of the fuel cell companies are also exploring technologies that allow them to reform other fuels into hydrogen for the fuel cells. Plug Power's home generator will run on natural gas or propane. I believe Ballard is working mainly with methanol. And I think methanol is the fuel of choice for the "micro" fuel cells as well.

    Not sure what to do with the water... that could be embarrasing, depending on where you had your wearable computer strapped :)
  • No. Gasoline will burn with excellent impulse (that is, propulsive volumetric increase per unit weight) when mixed with air (normal nitrogen/argon/oxygen mix your lungs use) at about a 16-to-1 ratio. A fifty-gallon drum of liquid gasoline does not usually ignite if you toss a lit cigarette into it (yes I have witnessed this) but typically the highly volatile nature of the liquid ensures that there are flamable vapors directly above the surface of the liquid - these vapors are readily ignited by any open flame.
    Hydrogen, on the other claw, is explosive under some conditions and flammable in pretty much any oxygen bearing atmosphere.
    The main problems with fuel cells are size, weight, heat, and interface contamination.
    --Charlie
  • This is about your 10th post to this story, including the silly "It's slasdotted." -- "It's up again." monologue. This may be an interesting story/discussion, but your posting all that crap with a +1 score bonus makes it sort of annoying.

    Don't you think it's time for you to get a life?

  • SO because I actually have time to post for once due to a lull in my sysadmin duties I have no life?

    My life is just fine thank you. If it were someone else more well known posting 10 or more times to this group you would probably not complain so why am I getting flamed here?

    I respect your right to post when and where you want - please respect mine.



    The Tick - "Spoon!"
  • The fact that it includes software is irrelevant. Patenting the device does not mandate patenting the software. Patenting a device does not stifle innovation -- unless you subscribe to the Slashdot/Marxism definition that states that you should be able to get it for free and do whatever you want with it. In fact, if they couldn't protect their investment with a patent, they wouldn't have developed the tech in the first place -- THAT, my friend, is stifling innovation.

    The reason I (and others) don't feel patents should apply to software is because software is more like art or literature. It is sufficient to copyright art/literature/software. A copyright then enables others to accomplish the same things, as long as they do it in an original way. Linus Torvalds holds the copyright to Linux. The only reason we can use it freely is because he has licenced it that way.
  • This would be VERY useful to the military. Think of all the portable electronic devices they use- radios, night vision goggles, GPS receivers. Batteries take hours to recharge, and if some of them use dispoable batteries, that's a lot of spare batteries to carry. Much easier to keep a methanol tank in the HUMMVEE and fill up in seconds.
  • all i have to say is that I had to read this page with lynx becasue the font they chose was soooooo small.

    I just keep wishing that people wrote straightforward html so that I could change the font size myself.

    Anyway the tech looks pretty snazy. I want one.

  • Fuel cells don't have to run off hydrogen and oxygen. All you really need is a combustible substance and an efficient catalyst system. The methanol cells that depend on a human liver enzyme that were recently annouced (at least in principle, there is prototype) are pointing in the right direction.
  • Fair 'nuf.

    That's all someone had to tell me. (And I appreciate you doing so.) I'm new to posting on /. so things like this particular rule are things I might miss on first glance.

    But telling me that and flaming me ALA "You need to get a life." are two different things.



    The Tick - "Spoon!"
  • Here in the UK most (nearly all) of the cost of fuel is in the form of tax - we would probably end up paying the same tax on fuel cells just as soon as they were the norm.

    Here in the states we taxed on about 49 cents a gallon. Which at normal gas prices is a 50% tax on gas. Now, were up to about a $1.50/gallon so the tax percentage has changed a little bit. I'm used to gas prices being about $1.00 to $1.10/gallon.

    Any how, with fuel cells, and tax, you figure if you're using hydrogen and oxygen you could just fill your tank up with water, and perhaps have some separator to make it go into hydrogen and oxygen, then go back into water again into your tank. I suppose you'd loose a little bit in conversions and such, but you could almost never have to refuel - you'd figure. I'm not quite filmier in the actually conversion process to know for sure. I just think it'd be so awesome to use this type of energy. I could just imagine the people bitching because they're taxing oxygen or something. :-> Actually if you could cheaply convert water into hydrogen and oxygen and store in a tank you could do this at home and get around the tax, of course they may make regulations on this to make you pay for the tax, but of course you're probably right, they'd tax the shit out of you on this as well.

    Not so easy to do that with fossil fuel, unless you want to wait a few million years :->

    Yeah, but this is what's so cool about this technlogy, you can waste and waste and it'll always come back. :->

  • error: does not compute

    Sorry bout that...of course, there are a ton of different chemical combos used to power fuel cells, each with their own price/poewr ratio.

  • Hydrogen can be prepared easily through simple electrolysis of water
    And how do you generate the electricity needed for this? Fuel cells definitally have potential, but what is more important is really efficiant photo-voltaic (solar) cells. If you have good, cheap, efficient solar power, everything else becomes easy. You'll still need fuel cells or somthing else to store excess electricty for mobile applications and when the sun is not shining.

    "The axiom 'An honest man has nothing to fear from the police'
  • That would be a phenotype, not a genotype. The phenotype is a manifest expression of the genotype; it is common for multiple genotypes to express the same phenotype -- the most common example is of course in the case of a 100% dominant trait the genotypes DD (homozygotic dominant) and Dr (heterozygotic) both exhibit the same dominant phenotype.
  • To stay ontopic..yeah, let's use our own body electricity. We'll all get cute little tubes that tap into our spines (existenz!). Of course this does mean, that when your system crashes, you run the risk of becoming paralyzed as well, but hey, who cares? And yes, I think wearing hydrogen cells on your body is an exceptionally good idea.
  • Yes, I know 2 to 4 times longer IS a big deal, but can they bring it in at 2 to 4 times the cost of the current batteries?
    2 to 4 times battery life in the same profile is worth more than 2 to 4 times the price. Humans can only carry a finite amount of bulk about their person, being able to carry X times more power is worth YX times the cost of the older technology, where Y is a factor that takes into account weight and power density (also possibly recharge time, heat generation & safety). I typically put Y = 2, so a battery capable of 2x the battery life of one I currently use (while maintaining a similar weight, volume and safety) can be as much as 4x more expensive and I'm still happy.
  • "And this perpetual motion machine she built is a joke - it just gets faster and faster"

    ...

    "Lisa! In this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics!"
  • Maybe we'd have to ban smoking before it would be safe enough to implement fuel cells in consumer vehicles. Wouldn't that be a shame.
  • So, if I re-phrase my question to read:

    Yes, I know 2 to 4 times longer IS a big deal, but can they bring it in at 4 to 8 times the cost of the current batteries?

    We would be in agreement on an 'economic equivalent' formula?

    I really hope they can make them affordable. I have no idea what fuel cell technology costs to manufacture, and I'm anxiously waiting for some product of this approximate size and quantity to come out so we can get some economic 'bechmarks'.
  • I heard something about putting the H2 as a liquid inside iron or something. And because hydrogen is so small 0.2 nm if I recall correctly that's not so difficult. Does anyone know more about this?
  • Neil Stephenson is an author in the cyberpunk genre. He wrote "Snow Crash" a book about lots of high tech goodies, hacking peoples minds using memes and wearable computers. In his world, wearable computers are used mainly by surveillance people. Thus "spooks" (CIA) and "Gargoyles" people who hang out on street corners recording everything hoping something good happens so they can sell the information. Sort of like people who have a wearable webcam with a database that includes the identities of every person on the planet. In his book big brother is not watching you so much as everyone is watching each other hoping to sell each other out for a dime. His next book involves Nanotechnology. If you don't know anything about this you should really get into it. Start by reading any books by Eric Drexler. Basically nanotech is molecule sized machines that can assemble anything you want. In "Diamond Age" one of the main characters programs nanites (the tiny machines) to make a book that is actually an insanely powerful supercomputer. The book called "a little girls primer" is given to a tiny girl. she reads it and answers it's questions everyday. she spends her entire adolescence read the book and learning about the foundations of Turing machines (computers). Sort of like playing pokemon but learning instead of catching silly cartoons she learns to be the greatest programmer the world has ever seen. That is why I'd love "a little girls primer" since she carried it everywhere it became a wearable in a sense. it was also a vastly powerful computer wired into the worlds networks and sort of looked out for her and kept her out of trouble... and got her into trouble too. But don't let me spoil it for you. go to the book store and get some nice dry paper in your hands with clear text w/o eye strain. After you read those two Stephenson books you'll probably want "Cryptonomicon" which as you can imagine is great too. Code breaking, Computers, German U-boats, extra-national currencies and online banking. If you don't want to read Drexler just search "Nanotechnology" here at /. and I am sure you'll find something.

    This Isn't for you but whoever the fuck moderated my post better have read all these books too... an it was hella on topic! what the FUCK is technology without APPLICATIONS? I think I made a point of citing two of the BEST applications of wearables ever published. Since the WHOLE point of /. is spreading information, just because mine comes from books (RFTMAH) doesn't mean it doesn't apply. As for redundant? I was a brand new slashdotter when I wrote it and didn't know how to set my threshold so I read every post up to the point that I wrote it and none of them were the same. I am Unique. ptHHHhpppt.

  • Thanks, that was mostly supposed to be a funny post. with inside jokes refering to Neil Stephensons book... as for tests? I went to desert storm... and back to the tan land 7 years later. Yes, its my real name and address. yes the VA has my record including my SW asia ribbons. thank you for your reply I was wondering if anyone actualy read anything I have written since I'm new and untill this post had never recieved moderation. Of course I think the moderation was screwed but I'm sure everyone who gets moderated down feels the same way.

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