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Handhelds Hardware

Apple to release PalmOS device? 130

Posted by jimjag from the in-the-palm-of-your-hand dept.
Kris_J writes "The Register says that "Apple-branded PalmOS-based device have already started coming off Taiwanese production lines". The Newton is dead, long live the PalmOS." It will be interesting to see that if this pans out, how much Newton technology will end up in this PDA. Towards the end, the handwriting recognition on the MessagePad was quite good, even if the unit itself was quite bulky. Who knows, maybe iPalm? :)
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Apple to release PalmOS device? More

Apple to release PalmOS device?

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  • The number VI is apparently not used because it clashes with a naughty word in English.

    So they considered calling it the PalmEmacs then?
  • That can only be good news. Palm software being given with MacOS for users with Macs. Will palm still support It's own branded products for MacOS, or will Palm owners need to upgrade to Apple's branded ones ....

  • HAW HAW! (Score:1)

    by Ken ( 3185 )
    iCrap! That so funny! I get it!
  • Well, Steve hated them because a) they were expensive and large compared to palm devices, b) they were John Scully's baby, c) they were stuck with the 'Doonsberry' stigma, even though HWR had gotten almost perfect, d) they were John Scully's baby, e) John Scully fired Steve from Apple, and oh, f) did I mention they were John Scully's baby? ;-)

    Seriously, having played with them, palms suck big green donkey turds for what I want a handheld to be, primarily because I used a Newt before I was exposed to them. Still use my Newt.

    It's sorta like Windows...until you've tried something that _works_ Windows seems pretty good as an OS...

    Mostly this is because of the gawdawful kludge that is Graffiti.
  • You understand that, yes? - great news for the Mac community though that's had to suffer with less than ok software to connect their Macs to their Palms

    I'd much rather see Sony get with the program - those guys can build solid reliable stuff!

  • While I agree from the user interface point of view, from a programmer's point of view I'd have to say that the PalmOS is pretty crude, especially when compared to what Apple was trying to do with the Newton OS.

    In short, programming for the Palm is an awful lot like programming for the Mac, circa 1984. While the database driven storage is pretty nifty, the actual API is very basic; memory management is a joke. Contrast that against the Newton, where you had a complete object oriented environment, garbage collection, full access to internal objects, etc. etc.

    Of course, you had to learn a new language to program the Newton (derived from Pascal, of all things), the tools were expensive and only available from Apple, blah blah blah. All in all, the Palm group probably made the right choice, though a pretty basic one.

  • One thing that might be cool is a folding screen. Imagine a unit the thickness of the Palm V, but with Twice the screen area. When you are done using it, fold it in half. You still couldn't hold it in the palm of your hand, but at least you could carry it around. Unfortunately, such folding screen technology is ten or twenty years off, from what I've heard.


    A roll up screen would probably work pretty well. ( something like the "globals" on Earth Final Conflict)

    Also what about 2 palm sized displays with a hinge in the middle that fold together when you are done.

    My favorite idea however, is a palm type device the that works like the present ones do when you are holding it in one hand but that unfolds to reveal a small keybord when you are sitting at a table or on a plane. You could then just plug your Sony "Movie Man" (R) sunglasses with the built in heads up display into the jack on the top and be able to work as if you were using a laptop.
  • They've got a cradle out already that connects to a USB port [modusmedia.com].

    Or do you want the USB port on the Palm itself? I can think of reasons why the conventional serial port was a better choice when the Palms came out (USB wasn't really there yet at the time, plus you can't telnet in on a USB port, can you?). Plus, it would be instantly incompatible with all of the existing gear for palm.

    FYI, there's also work going on on a cradle that hooks up to your network via Ethernet. Now THAT'S a fast sync!

    Jon
  • localtalk networking
    The localtalk stuff was damn useful. The ability to plug the thing in at my desk and print on the printer in reception was very helpful, on occasion.
  • There are plenty of Free software writers for the PalmOS out there. You can start by looking at my page at http://blevins.simplenet.com/palm/ for a list of GPL'd Palm software.
    Also, try searching for "Pyrite" and "JPilot" on freshmeat for some nice desktop-side software.

    I used to have hope for www.openhandheld.org, but that has been dead for a year. Maybe somebody would like to host a similar site?

    -Mitch
  • The Rev A and Rev B iMacs (the non-fruity ones) did indeed have an IR port. The Rev C and since (the fruity ones) do not.

  • most definately NOT OWNED BY INTEL

    intel took over the manufacture of ARM chips for DEC but then found it did not have a licence UH OH ARM rubs its hands in glee "those NICS are very fast oh and you use what and you havnt payed well what can I do for you ? "
    ARM made a packet and TI are affraid of INTEL in the DSP market so have shiped lots and lots of are cores several billion last time I heard (hmm how many PIII cores shiped ? )

    regards

    john
    a poor student @ bournemouth uni in the UK (a deltic so please dont moan about spelling but the content)
  • apple invested in ARM to make the newton

    plam OS say that they can port it but I doubt it

    ARM arch is very nice open you can get it from lots of vendors and has the DSP market hell buy a NIC and it has an ARM in it 3COM intel DEC/Compaq and the rest all use ARM for the NICs

    and dont forget netwinder or psions

    nope Ill wait till apple wakes up again and uses a proc which doesnt eat betterys

    regards

    john
    a poor student @ bournemouth uni in the UK (a deltic so please dont moan about spelling but the content)
  • Keep in mind, you may not be the intended audience. The vast majority of Slashdotters found the style & colors of the iBook to be quite toilet-seat like, and generally disliked it. Nevertheless, the iBook is selling quite well.

    The style of the iPalm is dependant on whom Apple views as its intended audience.
  • considering a handspring module that connects to airport (uses the same wireless protocol anyhow) was just announced.. you're not too far off..

    wireless hotsync between a pda and a new imac would be just the spiffiest thing ever. sync from anywhere in the house :)
  • Apple did designed and developed the newton UI, which is totally touch screen controled, and I still think it's by far one of the best UI ever.
  • Incidentally, this is the reason why Nokia has no cell phones starting with the digit 4 - all other digits are covered (except for 0, of course ;)
  • The Visor is true USB, end-to-end. Hence HotSyncing goes much faster than on Palm Computing's devices, which use a serial->USB converter, effectively slowing down communcations to serial's 115kbps speed.
  • Don't forget another bad side of the Palm V/Vx series: the battery. The early V units already have their li-ion batteries going dead, and not only they're not covered by the warranty but the units are also very difficult to open/fix/seal (the 2 half-shells are glued).

    I'm very happy with my IIIx unit which shall never have this kind of problems... At least a month autonomy on 2 ultra-standard AAA batteries is, IMHO, the best system ever. I guess that's why the Visor uses the same system, and also a reason I'd love to have one the day I'll get full USB support with Linux...

    Max
  • Well, the Newt *was* bulky, bust that was mostly the fault of the 4 AA batteries it had to contain. I find the size of the screen on my MessagePad 2000 just great as you can write on it in meetings without having to be too careful about the size and angle of the writing.

    Also, many people who don't know about Newtons describe mine as 'much better than a Pilot' and are very surprised when I reveal it was made several years ago and is a relic in computing terms.

    A PDA with a screen size of the MP2000 screen and a case only slightly bigger would be lovely. Keep the notepad metaphor as well, rather than messing about trying to be a desktop-type interface.

  • making it somewhat useless, as Linux doesn't support USB yet.
  • Although this would be "just dreamy" I don't expect to see anything similar to the Newton again.
    It was the from ground up well designed NewtonOS (not cloned and put at inappropriate hardware) with good applications and tightly integrated handwriting recognition that make the fascination of Newton. Today the developers are spread over different companies and documentation is lost. I believe it is not possible nor clever to implant parts of the Newton technology into another devices.

    I'm using my MP2000 for nearly 3 years now, and hope he will not get broken, at least so long until something better will appear. It was mentioned, that the Newton was ahead of the time, for how many years he was ahead, will then turn out.

  • The Dragonball processor has no MMU. And only has an execution space of about 64K (the max you'll have at any one time is 56K). Yes, the Dragonball has *access* to more memory for storage, etc. but not for actually program execution.

    That's not really any different from the original 68000 - the 64k limit (actually, it's a +/- 32k limit) comes from wanting your binaries to be relocatable: They have to use relative addressing instead of absolute, and the 68k instruction set uses 16 bits for relative addressing.

    The same restriction existed on Commodore Amigas and Atari STs, etc.. The Amiga OS binary file format handled this by requiring that no function be larger than one 32k chunk, and using jump tables to map calls and accesses between chunks. The jump tables were recalculated by the program loader each time the program was read from disk. This was completely hidden from the programmer and user - if they didn't care to look, it seemed to them as if they could write programs as large as the Amiga's memory space.

    Because this was a performance hit, careful programmers made sure frequently called functions ended up in the same chunk as the functions that called them. It also lent itself to software-based virtual memory since chunks were ready made for swapping in and out of memory.


    --
  • Doesn't the Handspring Visor already define what an iPalm would be? It's cheap, talks USB and comes in 6 "trendy" colors. Who could ask for anything more? I love mine, and I saved a lot of money.

    --Evan
  • Personally I find the newton 2100 to be an extremely usable hand held platform. I can read docs, except pdf--Ouch!, in any light, it has excellent battery usage. It can do things that can't be done nicely in the palm form factor, like act as a notebook. I would much rather see a device as large as a standard notebook as thin as a newt with the ability to read all sorts of documentation including html, email and even .docs. As well as include all the functionality of the newton platform, unlike the sharp platforms or the electronic books. A wireless, keyboardless workstation if you will. Wouldn't it be nice to write "ls -las" at a bash prompt while sitting in your ez chair with no cords at all.
  • I have an Apple Message Pad 120 and I have used a few Palmpilots.

    I have my MP120 set to printing as opposed to cursive recognition, and customized to my style. It works about 98% of the time, and when it fails I can just double click the word and usually choose the correct word from a pop up list.

    The MP was hyped and marketed far far too soon, by apple. Well before it was usable. As a result, bad press and stories did far too much damage to what was to become probably the best PDA so far.

    When I first saw it at an Apple launch, the Apple guy wrote "Hello, my name is Frank." and the MP converted this into "Hello any name is failure". :)

    I hope they make a proper PDA without the alien writing in a box limits.

  • Microsoft owns the "PC" concept? Funny, I remember when IBM owned the "PC" concept and everything else was just a clone.
  • ...Mac community though that's had to suffer with less then ok software to connect their Macs to their Palms

    Less then OK?!? I just got a Palm V for Christmas. Got the USB kit. Hooked it up to my PB G3. Shoved in the CD and installed the software. No problems. None!

    Yes, the adapter kit thing is just a USB/serial adapter, but I have no complaints. It works.

    Perhaps the older version of the Palm Desktop software was crap. From what I heard, it was. Get the current version, it works great with USB.


  • What I would really be interested to see, should this turn out to be true, is if Apple would continue with their strategy of one model for consumers and one model for professionals.

    If so, apart from whatever innovation they put into the machines, it could mean dirt cheap palmtop computing for the masses.

    It has often been speculated that Apple would bundle an Apple branded handheld with iMacs and iBooks, and possible with Powerbooks and G4s too. If this does all turn out to be true I can't wait to see that happen.

  • The difference would be the specs. Duh. Fast professional ones, cheaper consumer ones.
  • Strange that Apple chooses to make Palm devices now that color Palms are around the corner.

    Or are they color Palms already?

    Wonder what the new "Aqua" user-interface looks like on my next Color-Palm device.. ;-)
  • Well.. in the case of iCEO it meant 'interim'...
    ;-)
    But with the release of iTools and such we're pretty much sure Apple has jumped on the internet bandwagon...

    BTW, the name iPalm is already taken... so let's guess again...
  • I think it is very unlikely that Apple decides to *bundle* a handheld with their computers. They're struggling already with cutting cost to make their computers cheaper.

    Where would a difference in Consumer- versus Professional- PDA be? A PDA is meant to be *Personal*, not something you would leave at your office when you go home. The only difference I could think about is marketing Ethernet-cradles (which 3Com already makes) or, even better, Airport.

    But unfortunately I no longer believe Apple would build Airport in their first Palm devices. Apple has taken on the route of Microsoft: More marketing, less innovation. This strategy does turn out to lead to higher marketshare though...

  • The Dragonball processor has no MMU. And only has an execution space of about 64K (the max you'll have at any one time is 56K). Yes, the Dragonball has *access* to more memory for storage, etc. but not for actually program execution.

    Think Z80 programming with a Motorola 68000 instruction set and you'll have an idea of what the Dragonball is like... :)
  • If you want that transparent look, it'd be worth looking for the Special Edition of the Palm IIIe, which has a transparent case! same spec as the regular IIIe, and you can likely find a good deal on it now the V is getting widespread.

    You can find a link to it on Palm Central here [palm.com], or another link with a better picture here [modusmedia.com].

    I wonder about the memory sizes... people are going on about the IIIx and the Vx as essential as they have 4M and 8M ram respectively, as opposed to the basic III and V which only have 2M... personally i have a IIIx, have put a ton of programs on there, use almost all its features, and have put 600K worth of books (about 5 books)on it with CSpotRun, and have still only used just over 1M on it! Has anyone actually filled up a IIIx or Vx with stuff?

    Fross
  • Knowing Apple, it seems that they would do something different with the case design. I can't see them releasing a PalmOS device with the "traditional" case design with an Apple logo on it.

    Better USB support is probably a given.

  • There a couple of more "opportunities" in the very near future: WWDC (World Wide Developer Conference) in May, Seybold in February, etc. But you are correct, the recent MacWorld Expo would have been the perfect place for an announcement like this. Of course, they could always have a "Special Event" similar to the one they had when announcing the "original" G3s back in 1997.
  • Apple has been slowly selling off all of its ARM stock, though. Each quarter when they release their financial results, they post a "one time gain" of $XXX million due to the sale of ARM stock. I doubt if they will be using any ARM processors in a PDA. BTW, isn't ARM owned by Intel now?

  • Maybe even more interesting would be a well financed attempt by Apple to "hijack" the universally-used term for a PDA from BIC. I don't know of anyone who doesn't refer to his/her Palm PDA as a "Pilot"! How 'bout an Apple Pilot?
  • I know that this is probably a silly question, but I REALLY have to know. Being as how this isn't terribly offtopic, I would be very appreciative if someone would answer me this:

    There are Palm IIIs, Palm Vs, and Palm VIIs. Are there others (besides the slew of variants of these numbers), and why is Palm skipping numbers?

    ---
  • A lawsuit isn't about what is right...its about what you can convice a judge to believe. If you can get him/her to agree the sky is pink, its pink.

    To that end, carrot and stick

    Stick: If you release printed handwriting on a palm, we will sue you for taking our trade secrets. You will be forced to show EVERY line of code, to be sure none of our code (which left in the heads) of your new Palm/ex Netwon employees.
    [Hint: How many programmers have copywrited code from the last job sill in hard copy/on tape/on CD ROM laying about/in a directory at home/at the new place of employ?]

    Carrot: Let us cross-licence the handwriting and the rest of our PDA technology portfolio. Oh, and we get palm OS rights cheap.

    Apple has a stick they can swing. And in swinging the stick, they can do damage. Both parties get damaged, but its a threat that can be made.

    Which way would *YOU* take?

    [The rumor is the ex-newton people have shown off write anywhere on the screen/printed handwriting style palms to management. Clearing any lawsuit issues from past employers (Apple) would go along way to making said technology aviab. to the consumer.]

    And with the graffiti authors off doing something else, keeping graffiti as the default/only method isn't the political problem it once was.

    *IF* Apple makes its version of the Palm with Graffiti/rosetta, and it becomes the popular version, Palm will do the same under whatever terms it works out with Apple/others.
  • Beat up martin was the clip I remember.

    You forgot:
    Apple/Dragon systems had software that would actually understand 20 some words. (numbers mainly)

    So you didn't need a keyboard OR stylus....you just talked to the newt.
  • Check out the TRG Pro [trgpro.com]. It has a CF slot and supports the IBM Microdrive. It looks pretty cool to me.

  • Not quite. AFAIK the Palm devices use Dragonball, which although based on the 68K architecture is certainly not "the same chip" as say the 68030 used in the LCII. But it is quite true that Apple have (old) experience with this architecture and so you never know what might happen.

  • One little thing worries me (well I'm not sure if it actually worries me as such, but it's interesting).

    3com should be careful that the "Palm" brand doesn't get hijacked by Apple, even accidently. In the hands of users brands get very confused, for instance most users would be hard pushed to differentiate between "a PC" and "a Windows PC". Microsoft owns the whole "PC" concept by default. A few people will recognise a Mac as different, maybe even a Unix box (i.e. Sun) but that's about it. What I can see happening is people saying "Hey look a coll handheld made by Apple". And from then on all Palm devices become Apple. Which may or may not be a bad thing...

  • Download the (free) PSION SDK and have a look yourself: they are already using GCC for cross-compiling to the StrongARM. It's only the NT-based emulator that you need Visual C++ for.

    Even better, go ahead and create a Linux-based cross compiler for the PSION. Just ask Psion for the source code to the compiler. As I said, it's the GNU Compiler Collection, so they _must_ give you the source code.

  • Bloody palm? Maybe you should get a band aid?
  • So, the form factor on the Microdrive is that of the CompactFlash memory cards (which leads us to believe they may be used with CF devices).

    The forty-two cent question, then, is whether or not current CF devices will (ever) be compatible with the MicroDrive, or will native support have to be written in the firmware of the device(s) as they are designed/manufactured? Will camera/PDA companies provide firmware upgrades to enable MicroDrive support, etc?

    I am a little confused about this. (Among other things.) I love the idea of the MicroDrive, and I'm hoping it catches on in a big way.

  • Perhaps they could dispense with the cradle entirely and synch using InfraRed, *IF* the iMac has an InfraRed port.... hmmmmmm.
  • This is good news, as long as we don't get another IBM knockoff. The IBM version is exactly like the palm but a different color and label. Hopefully Apple can take the PalmOS and create a new hardware interface that is easier to use. Perhaps with some more accessibility that doesn't use the stylus. It would be great to have an "enter" button that you could thumb on the side of the unit instead of gettting your pen out to select the option you want.

    Nate
  • A microdrive would be brilliant to have as a storage device in a Handspring Visor. I have no idea if it can be used, but imagine being able to use it as a storage device too, or as a portable MP3 player with some more capacity than on static RAM

  • The number IV is apparently not used because it clashes (I'm not sure, either the glyph IV or the word/number 4) with a naughty word in some Oriental language.

    "4" sounds like "death" in Chinese. Or was it Japanise ... can't remeber ... but its definitly because is sounds like death (or dead).

    Thad :P
  • It was more than just the batteries. Things like the PCMCIA card port took up room too. To some extent, the Newton was over-engineered. I mean it contained things like digitized sound and localtalk networking. But on the other hand, that bulk did allow them to put a generous sized LCD screen over the whole thing.

    I once was looking for handwriting recognition software for the pilot that would allow me to treat it more like a Newton, but when I started trying the various software packages that I found I realized that with the smaller size pilot's screen I would never be able to write on it like a Newton.
  • It will be interesting to see what Apple can do on their own ?

    it's pretty hard to translate the look and feel of desktop using a keyboard/mouse, to a mono lcd with a stylus !

    I use a palm III and it performs quite well (although it chews more batteries than i would like).

    The main thing apple could do with their own incarnation of the PalmOS is integrate it tightly with MacOS and standard (popular) mac apps.

  • I'd trademark that iPalm name jimjag, if it's not already taken...

    BTW, while we are on the "i" subject, what the hell does that stand for? "Internet?" "Intelligent?"

  • The current iMacs shipping with MacOS 9 are pre-installed with Instant Palm Desktop in the menu bar.
    There must be some cross- licensing agreement with 3COM in place already.

  • I for one am quite happy with my Palm III. If I wanted another PalmOS machine, it would be a Palm IV,V,VI, or whatever. Apple would really have to deliver an outstanding little PDA with highly competative pricing to make me switch. And I am sure they can do that, based on past success :-)
  • Well, I have a Palm IIIx and I hate getting out the pen. So whenever I'm playing a game with the buttons at the bottom, and a box pops up telling me "You are at level 5", I just use my fingernail and tap the button.

    It can't be _that_ bad for the screen.
  • COmplete TCP/IP compliant stack w/256Bytes? Are you on drugs or what?
  • I don't see Apple NOT doing them in bright colors, even if we first only have a choice of "blueberry." Look at what's happened to pagers over the past few years. Now I can get a Mickey Mouse plate for my cell phone, for goodness sakes. Already having the Macs that you could potentially color-coordinate with would probably even sell a few more!
  • The screen size is a factor, but if they would get rid of the the silk-screened interface area, that whole space could be used for writing entire words. True, people who write large letters would find it cramped, but it would be a step in the right direction. Unfortunately the industry doesn't move by the power of my whims alone. A shame really.

  • Re:an iPalm, perhaps? (Score:2)

    by Anonymous Coward
    They've been talking iPalm since they announced iMac. this is not news. They were talking about ditching newton and buying palm years before. they've been romancing palm for at least 5 years. If you want to see interesting palm variants, look at the TRG Pro, www.trgnet.com instead of the springboard port like visor, they adopted a CF port.... modem support, 340mb IBM microdrive support... a palm with 8mb base and 340mb storage is BOOOTIFUL!
  • As long as the two work together to improve the interface I see this as a good thing. Apple has always been known for its easy UI and that is what the Palm is all about. But I do not want the Mac desktop on my Palm. Although the menu hack does add a bit of that to the PalmOS now. Hmmmmm.


  • Handspring's Visor has a USB cradle for hotsyncing. Works pretty well.
  • Check Open Handheld [openhandheld.org] for an attempt at a PalmOS free software development group. As you can see, this page is pretty much dead (the pages don't seem to have been updated in over a year) and there hasn't been any activity on the mailing list for a long time.

    To be honest, I don't see much need for a free (speech) replacement for PalmOS. The OS (at least until quite recently) is very closely coupled with the hardware, and Palm are very good to their developers. You can (after filling in the relevent forms) get the source to most of the OS, and the source to all the built-in apps is available under a very free license. One thing in particular would make a free replacement hard - there is no keyboard on the device, so you'd need writing recognition to do most useful things with the device.

    One more thing: my GPLed software for the Palm is available at http://www.vmlinuz.org/palmos [vmlinuz.org]. There's a barely-written web site downloader (use SiteScooper [tsx.org] instead) and LinkDirect (yes, it's a better, GPLed clone of DirectLink), a program for making a quick PPP connection between the Palm serial port and the PC serial port.

  • The number IV is apparently not used because it clashes (I'm not sure, either the glyph IV or the word/number 4) with a naughty word in some Oriental language. I think it is also something to do with skipping a number to make it obvious that this is a new generation.

    The number VI is apparently not used because it clashes with a naughty word in English.

    As for others, the company known as Palm Computing has also released devices called the Pilot and the PalmPilot. The word Pilot is no longer used, apparently because the pen company of the same name (and prior usage) took offence and asked Palm (through the courts, IIRC) to please stop using it.

    The other devices using the PalmOS are the IBM Workpad (a rebadged Palm, in effect), a variety of devices produced by Symbol, the TRGPro from TRG (duh!), the Visor from Handspring, and the upcoming devices from Sony and Apple.

    I've got a TRGPro (which I won at PalmSource London) and I love it :-)
  • The Palm doesn't talk USB. The Visor, which is otherwise entirely Palm compatible, does talk USB, and has the hotsync speed to prove it.

    The Visor definitely rocks, though. If only the company would commit to producing upgrades on the OS when the new color API comes out (shades of gray are fine).

    Now, when are we going to get Fibrechannel (>1Gb) speeds on our hotsyncs? ;-)

    -Billy

  • iPalm (Score:2)

    by bjb ( 3050 )
    Well, seeing how Apple got mad about people cloning the iMac in the past (read: the blueberry color scheme), how about the fact that they're entering a market where Handspring has already released 'flavored cases' or the Visor? It would be funny if they got a taste of their own medicine, but it would only be funny as a joke I think..

    Well, at least one thing could come out of this: we could finally get a PalmOS device with "eeep!", "bwoink!", "beuuuunngh!" and "eeeek!" sounds. Maybe when you hit the hard reset button you'll get a sample of a go-cart skidding and crashing into a wall of tires. Hmm...

    --

  • The latest version of the Palm OS will do this already (to both Mac and PC), and I believe a friend of mine did successfully synch his Palm to his apple laptop using IR.

    Last I heard, he went back to a serial cradle, as his TV was polluting his living room with IR and he was having reliability and speed problems.

    Bill Kilgallon

  • This actually goes quite nicely with the announcement that Xircom will be producing an Airport [apple.com] Springboard for the Visor. CNN article [cnn.com] - Xircom Press Release [xircom.com]. I wonder if the first batch, or so, of Apple-brand PalmOS devices will have Airport support, possibly built in, possibly with a simple add-on...
  • I once wrote, on my Newton, "How many Newtons does it take to screw in a lightbulb?" I got "One many suiters does it tail to view in Trinidad".
  • Actually the Microdrive is a CompactFlash Type II device, about 50% thicker than a CompactFlash Type I device. The way CompactFlash works, if you can insert the Microdrive into a device (and it can cope with the additional power draw) then it will work, but most older CF devices, like cameras, only have a Type I slot and the device won't physically fit. Firmware upgrades are of no use.
  • There are some links to interesting Sony/PalmOS stories at this Yahoo club [yahoo.com] - Sony look like they'll be the ones taking the risk with an extreme Palm with colour and way too many other features. Should be interesting to see what they come up with, I just wish they'd hurry up and released something already...
  • If Palm were to come up with REAL handwriting, Apple could sue. Even IF the new version was 'clean' of Apple code, the legal bills would go on for some time.

    I don't see why. Apple neither invented on-line handwriting recognition nor was their technology particularly distinguished. They may have a few patents in the area, but so do lots of other people. The basic ideas should be coming into the public domain by now, since they were worked out in the 70's and early 80's.

    Of course, I don't see handwriting recognition as particularly important for PDAs anyway. It's a nice marketing gimmick, but when it comes down to it, something like a Sharp Wizard is much more efficient for data entry. To me, what makes the PalmPilot a good organizer is the well-designed software; unfortunately, none of the other hand-held organizers get close (e.g., on the Sharp Wizard, you cannot delete repeating appointments and the desktop software is a pain to install). I view the pen input as a liability, not an asset.

  • www.trgpro.com [trgpro.com]... TRG-Pro has it's own website. They're nice, I was considering cancelling my Palm Vx order and ordering one of these. I can still, does anyone else think I should?

    Back on topic, I read the article, and I didn't see anything to say what differentiates a iPalm vs. a 3Com Palm.

    Besides the fruity colors (pun intended) which everyone expects, what will be in this iPalm to make it worth buying? Apple is great at design, but the Palm V series is great as it is. What would make me buy a iPalm over a regular Palm, if they were the same price?

  • considering the rumours of an apple-branded palm device have been stirring now for.. almost two years (since the cancellation of the Newton and intensified by Steve Jobs buyout bid on Palm not long after), i'll believe it when i see it.

    the Register tends to have reliable sources, and doesn't usually dip into the rumour pool lightly, but all the vague references and unsubstantiated sightings make me just a bit skeptical.

    that and i just bought a used Newton MessagePad 2000 on ebay for a song :)
  • Yes I do know people who write novels on their Palms, but I'm a believer in the computer adjusting to the way I want to use it, not the other way around.

    Part of the problem with this is the small size of the Palm Pilot. It is designed to fit comfortably in your hand and your shirt pocket. With such a small size, "real" handwriting would be very difficult. There just isn't that much room to let you write out entire words. Letter-by-letter is pretty much the only practical way to go.

    It should be possible to improve the letter-by-letter recognition part, though. Graffiti isn't hard to learn or use, but you are right, computers should adapt to the user whenever possible.
  • Sorry, but I can't let this one slide. Where do you people come up with this stuff?

    Intel quite clearly owns the StrongARM processor technology, and in fact, over the past year, they've even started to recognize that what they bought is beter than what they can build.

    The StrongARM website at Intel says, "Watch for next generation StrongARM® processors to make their debut during the first half of 2000." Read it for yourself at http://developer.intel.com/design/ strong/index.htm [intel.com]. (Actually the quote above is from a page linked to by that page, but clearly Intel is still in this game.)

    Besides, I'm not aware of any NIC with an ARM chip on it, although there may be one. The ARM and DSP's (like TI's) are very different beasts.
  • What PalmOS really needs is a USB port instead of that cheesy little serial port on the Palm 3 and 5.

    Paul.

  • But does the Palm itself talk USB, or is there a little RS232-USB converter hidden in there?

    I note that the iMac is very USB-centric, so the Apple PalmOS device would logically have the same approach, with a USB-serial device as an option.

    Paul.

  • Jobs knows what he's doing when it comes to consumer devices. With Apple behind Palm OS, we can all sleep soundly knowing that WinCE is even less likely to take control of the CE market place. Palm OS has great support in the independent developer community (not to mention the OSS guys), but it has been in danger of not having the necessary backing to compete against a competitor w/ unlimited R&D, marketing power and patience. If you can get a Palm into the hands of every whimsical Mac user, it will push the demand for increased usability with improved look&feel. This couldn't come at a better time considering the new wireless Internet applications being made available.

    My only worry is that carrying one could become an embarrasment. I really don't want to use a PDA that is named after a fruit. Steve, please, make it black or grey. We need at least the semblance of looking cool. Go watch the matrix.
  • A couple years ago (has it been that long?) when a Texas company offered Apple $11M for the discarded Newton, one of the remaining Newton people in Apple anonymously revealed that the disruption of the Newton group was so complete that Apple didn't even know where the various parts (be they hardware or software specs) were. So, even if Apple did was to sell, they couldn't.

    You have to realize that most of us Newton users have heard of all this before - it's REALLY old news. Most of the people who developed the Newton eventually went to Palm and M$ for WinCE. The more work that goes into the Palm, the closer it becomes to the MessagePad 130.

    As for me, I'm very disappointed that nothing has come around to replace my Newton.
  • The number IV is apparently not used because it clashes (I'm not sure, either the glyph IV or the word/number 4) with a naughty word in some Oriental language. I think it is also something to do with skipping a number to make it obvious that this is a new generation.

    Actually none of that is true, but just rumors.

    I asked a friend of mine who works for Palm Computing why they skipped numbers like that and the only reason they did it is because IV and VI, for example, look far too similar that the general public may easily confuse the two which would definitely not be a good thing for marketing. That's the only reason they ever skipped numbers like they do.
  • Methinks he just wants to be able to tinker. I fully understand, as I'd love to tinker with the guts of a nice portable thing like that. Look at all the TI graphing calculator hacks (new OSes, Tetris, other games, overlocking) :-)
    ---
  • (Humourous sarcasm)
    Once there was a Steve, and he had Jobs. His Jobs were to fix Apple. So to make sure he kept on task, and that others' wouldn't take his time with managerial fluf, he became the interum CEO (iCEO). And all was good.

    Jobs recognised that Apple needed a computer to catch the masses attention, at least long enough for them to buy Apple products. He developed an interum Macintosh to serve as a "training" computer -- it is called the iMac. And Apple market share increased, and all was good.

    Then Steve recognised that people liked portability. Laptops were used on airplanes, but his iMacs couldn't go on them. So he designed the iBook, an interum laptop to be used until people bought the less flashy (and less garish, although more expensive) normal Macintosh laptops. To associate it strongly with planes, he included the "Airport" wireless network. And real CEOs bought iBooks, and Apple market share increased, and all was good.

    But Steve was slow on the uptake. A veritable forest of palms had sprung up, each with a Dragon inside. Steve had no Dragons, and someone else had stolen his transparent colour plastic idea, but he did have the licences for the Rossetta code. Steve began releasing the iPalm (use it until you buy something more expensive/functional from Apple). And the iPalm was purchased by computer illiterates, and real CEOs bought the iBook, and Apple market share increased, and all was good.
    (/Humourous sarcasm)

    The 'i' stands for (IMO) interum more than anything else. Any company that sticks 'i' or 'e' onto the front of a name to increase sales should be yelled at (or at least have their marketting departments destroyed). "iMac" "eMachines eOne" .. it's gross. :-)

    ---
  • After reading this article and thinking about the recent changes in Apple's hardware... I'm beginning to think that the Apple-Palm device might be some sort of a Palm VII with Airport capabilities- rather than the wireless technology that Palm is using right now. That would be pretty cool, although it would be more limited than the current wireless technology. You think that it might be possible for the device to support both?

    I'm really looking forward to seeing what (if anything) develops out of this story.
  • The Sony picturebook.

    The new version (in Japan only) has an 8 gig drive, as opposed to the 4 gig in the present picturebook.

    Here [sony.com] is a link to the sony page. Not much bigger than a Newton 2000/2100, smaller than the Newton and keyboard.

  • Nah, the Visor already has the scoop on iMac colors, etc. Wonder if their implementation has an expansion port. You can see Handspring's products at www.handspring.com.
  • A better UI metaphor: don't know iMates, but the Palm one isn't bad.

    If you ever used a Newton, you would know what he meant. The Palm UI is still very much a desktop UI converted to a small screen. The menu bar (even though it is hidden behind the menu button) and text manipulation through copy, cut, and paste commands are really just desktop computing throwbacks that have no place in a PDA environment.

    On the Newton, text was highlit with the stylus similar to the Palm, but moving text was simply dragging around a highlit section rather than a cut followed by cursor movement, and then followed by paste. Deleting was a back and forth scribble very familiar to any who has used a pencil eraser.

    Other problems stem from the grafitti input system. From the applications point of view, it acts very much like a keyboard, and it flavors how the applications act. All of the Palm's text areas have a very keyboard-ish notion of lines separated by newlines. It took a long time for me to get used to the fact that spaces betwen words had to actually be written.

    Despite its flaws though. Eventually I switched from the Newton to the Pilot. Some of the things that make the Pilot a less than ideal PDA tend to make it a stronger mobile extention to my desktop computer. (or however the quote went.)

    As for the Newton being gone. For actual hardware and OS, I'm sure its true. But from a UI perspective, it doesn't have to be. There are worse things a fledgling palm developer could spend money on than an old used Newton, or even a book about the Newton. The people who designed it gave some really good thought on how a PDA UI should differ from a desktop UI, and I don't think that enough PDA developers realize it.

  • How could they not use USB ?

    How else would you connect it to your iMac ???

  • That's the only thing keeping me from replacing my Newton 2100. It's the last one Apple made and the only one that was worth buying. If there was a Palm device that did it as well as my Newton I'd buy in an instant. I don't want to learn another language just to get info into my PDA, and don't give me a stupid chicklette keyboard. If I can't type with all 10 of my fingers, what's the point? Yes I do know people who write novels on their Palms, but I'm a believer in the computer adjusting to the way I want to use it, not the other way around.

  • Why bother? (Score:3)

    by Smack ( 977 ) on Monday January 10, 2000 @04:34AM (#1387929) Homepage
    Not to be glib, but why would anyone bother doing all this work? Two of the major arguments for an open source OS are being able to fix bugs easily (and the resulting reliablility) and better device support. But PalmOS is already rock-solid reliable, and has virtually zero bugs. And there are no real devices to support, because it's a standard hardware platform. So there is very little to gain from doing this. Linux became popular because it was an alternative to an OS that people weren't happy with. Since most people ARE happy with the PalmOS, where will any replacement get an opening?

    As far as Open Source ON PalmOS, 3Com releases the header files, and you can cross-compile your programs with gcc. So you can develop for it completely free.

  • Re:an iPalm, perhaps? (Score:3)

    by killbill ( 10058 ) on Monday January 10, 2000 @05:25AM (#1387930) Homepage

    To answer your question about cancelling your Vx order and going for the TRG Pro... it depends. I am selling my IIIx and have a TRG Pro on order.

    The Vx gives you the best form factor at half the thickness of the TRG Pro, if that matters to you (and it does not to me, I strap it to my hip in a nice Rhino Skin belt pack, so the thickness difference becomes nearly irrelevant).

    The TRG Pro give you mind boggling expandability via compact flash cards.

    Get the Palm Vx if: You are carrying it in a suit pocket (this is the only form factor that will not bulge or bag). You intend to never expand it or experiment with it. You don't currently or will not on the near future plan to own a digital camera or MP3 player that uses compact flash cards. You want to go out to your local TechieMart and pick it up this afternoon and you have money to burn.

    Get the TRGPro if: You want future expansion capibility, especially if you have a digital camera or MP3 player that already uses compact flash (so you will have some laying around that can do double duty). You tend to experiment with software and hardware and like to be on the cutting edge. You want to carry a LOT of data around with you all the time.

    As I said before, I ordered the TRGPro the day they announced it was shipping. It is compatible with the assorted cases, cables, clip on modems, and other odds and ends I have accumulated with the previous 4 generations of pilots I have owned (Pilot 512, Palm Professional, Palm III upgrade for Professional, Palm IIIx). These doodads would easily cost me over $100 to replace if I went for either the Visor Deluxe or the Vx, so the TRG Pro was the obvious choice.

    I am also pretty sure I will upgrade my Apple Quicktake 200 to a better digital camera that uses compact flash sometime in the next year, and will likely pick up an MP3 player in the next two years that uses the same cards as well. This will allow me to have a collection of compact flash cards that I can move between devices as I see fit.

    The only real advantage of the Vx is size, but for some people, that is the overriding concern. If you must have the small size (some people do, nothing wrong with that), get it. Even without the expansion, it will be a darn usefull little tool for your daily life.

    If size is not your main concern, get the TRG Pro or the Handspring Visor. Both are nicely expandable, very hackable (in the old noble sense of the word), well priced, and extremely usefull.

    I suspect the Apple will be a re-badged something or other since they are working directly with Palm... probably a IIIx style with 8 megs, clear case, and USB. It will be interesting to see if it includes any expansion capability (i.e. compact flash or springboard).

    Bill Kilgallon

  • Size magic (Score:3)

    by DragonHawk ( 21256 ) on Monday January 10, 2000 @09:03AM (#1387931) Homepage Journal
    My only major complaint with the Newton was its size. If the Apple-Palm device comes to pass, this is what I'd like to see.... A screen the size of the Newton's...

    Part of the problem here is you cannot carry five pounds in a three-pound bag. The big screen of the Newton was nice to work on, but it made the unit considerably larger, which meant it was hard to carry around.

    Ever notice how the size of the Palm Pilot just about matches the size of a pocket notebook (the kind that flip open at the top)? There's a reason for that. It's a very convenient size for us humans, both to hold in our hands and to put in our pockets.

    One thing that might be cool is a folding screen. Imagine a unit the thickness of the Palm V, but with twice the screen area. When you are done using it, fold it in half. You still couldn't hold it in the palm of your hand, but at least you could carry it around. Unfortunately, such folding screen technology is ten or twenty years off, from what I've heard.

  • I doubt we'll see Apple's HW (Score:3)

    by fritter ( 27792 ) on Monday January 10, 2000 @07:04AM (#1387932)
    Given that the Newton sported a StrongARM for handwriting recognition, which was (from what I hear) roughly on par with a P5, and the Palm uses a DragonBall, a derivative of the chip used in a Mac Classic, I doubt they'd be able to squeeze enough CPU speed out of a Palm to do the Newton's handwriting recognition. One of the main reasons the MessagePad 2000's handwriting recognition was so good in the end was the massively increased CPU power StrongArm gave it.

  • iMate features? (was Re:an iPalm, perhaps?) (Score:3)

    by Wordman ( 79573 ) on Monday January 10, 2000 @05:49AM (#1387933) Homepage
    There are some proven technologies that Apple owns which could make their way to the iPalm. (Actually, when this product entered the rumormill months ago, it went by the name "iMate", if I remember correctly.)

    1) The extremely good, on screen, handwriting recognition. The Newton allows you to write nearly anywhere on screen. By the time the 2100 came out, this recognition was really good. It even understood my hand-writing, which is no small task.

    2) A better UI metaphor. The Newton defined its own interface guidelines, instead of trying to be like a desktop machine. Its core UI concepts are tons better than any other handheld I've seen. I'd be surprised if these are actually used on the iMate, but if they are, I would guess that Palm will (eventually) start using them on their own devices as well.

    3) Better UI widgets. Even if they don't change the whole metaphor, the iMate could learn a lot from the Newton about tiny wigdets, tricks and interface tools which make using a Newton way easier than other palmtops.

    4) StrongARM support. Again, this probably won't happen, but the Newton 2x00 series used the StrongARM processor, running at something like 160MHz. For a handheld of several years ago, that is quite a bit of processing power, especially since the batteries lasted for several weeks of average use (I think they were rated at 24hrs continuous use).

    5) Speech. Apple ported MacInTalk to the Newton, so the Newton can read notes back to you. Apple has also been doing quite a bit with speech recognition lately, but that probably takes more juice than the iMate would have.

    6) QuickTime. Eventually (probably not in the near future), palmtops will be powerful enough to playback video. Actually, the Newton could sort of do this, but not using a standard video format. (Anyone who saw the "Eat Millhouse" Simpsons clip on a Newton knows what I mean.) It would be in Apple's best interest to get QuickTime onto palmtops as soon as possible. Since the core of QuickTime is basically a compression engine, there may be some peices of it being used in the iMate.

    7) TCP/IP. The Newton (eventually) got a fairly decent, small TCP/IP stack. I'm not sure how good Palm's is, but it is possible that Apple's is better.

    8) Color. This is a bit of a stretch, but Apple has had years of experience in shifting black & white OS/hardware/APIs to color. As a Mac programmer during the transition from the Plus to the Mac II, I can tell you this was not very pleasant. Apple eventually got the hang of it, and I'm sure could give Palm some (much needed) advise about the best way to transition to full color.

    One thing to keep in mind about all this is that Steve Jobs absolutely hated the Newton. This might have been because it was the pet project of the guy who fired him, but I remember seeing interview with people who said things like "Steve Jobs just doesn't get the Newton". So, looking to the Newton for inspiration may be the totally opposite of what Apple did.

  • PalmOS Question marks... (Score:3)

    by PhineasFrog ( 114817 ) on Monday January 10, 2000 @03:42AM (#1387934)
    This is probably a little off topic, but:

    Where are the Open Source PalmOS nerds? While uCLinux [uclinux.com] looks really neat, It's not palmOS by any measure. Linux was just conceived to do different stuff. There is also a company called OSK [oski.co.kr] who claim to have a Linux and PalmOS compatable operating system, with the base open source, since they'd be in violation of the Linux license if it wasn't. Besides, it seems like a PalmOS emulator running on top of Linux...

    Is there, to anyone's knowledge

    • An open sourced, teeny lil' OS that will run on Dragonball Processors, is a single task, messaging based, and has a data storage abstraction like PalmOS databases?
    • Barring that, is there any attempt to clone the PalmOS interface in an efficient, open source implementation? Would this kind of thing be legal?
    • Barring both of the above, is there at least a community of Open Source development for PalmOS out there anywhere? And how would one get in touch with that community?

  • Good luck to Apple (Score:4)

    by Mr. Protocol ( 73424 ) on Monday January 10, 2000 @09:25AM (#1387935)
    The Apple Newton was the most advanced piece of computer technology ever to hit the consumer market. It's application language, NewtonScript, was based on Self, a classless derivative of Smalltalk. That makes the Newton the closest thing going to Alan Kay's original vision of the Dynabook.

    It was too big, too expen$ive, and Apple spent about $1.98 marketing it from first to last.

    Half the time, when I use my 2100 on an airplane, it stops the stewardesses dead in their tracks. Every time I take my eMate down to the local coffeehouse to work on my novel, people come up and go ga-ga over it. When I show them that it isn't an iBook, costs about 1/3 as much as an iBook, is way lighter than an iBook and is instant-on, they want to know why they haven't seen it in stores. When I tell them it's been in the coffin for over two years, their jaws drop.

    The Palm is a perfect device for its niche, but for me it's too small, too slow and too stupid. It's much harder to develop for, that's certain. And it outsold Newton eight ways from Sunday because the form factor was right and because Palm knows how to market.

    The fact that Steve Jobs proved he was a big fat boob when the Newton was "Steved" is emotionally satisfying, but, sadly, was almost an afterthought. Newton might have survived if it was properly marketed - the numbers that leaked out of Newton, Inc. showed it was profitable way before it should have been - but that's history.

    Newton cannot be reconstructed. Nothing on the market, not even a Psion, can do what a Newton can do. As a result, I've adopted a "bunker mentality". I have several 2100s, several 130s, and an eMate, and I plan to hang onto these and use them for the three to five years it'll take for someone to bring something better to market. For my needs, Palm isn't in the running.

  • Dream PDA (Score:4)

    by jamesoutlaw ( 87295 ) on Monday January 10, 2000 @03:59AM (#1387936) Homepage
    Back in 1996 I bought a Newton MessagePad 120 "demo unit" and thought it was the most wonderful piece of technology I'd ever seen. I envied the MessagePad 2000's and 2100's when they came out but did not want to pay the $900 price tag.

    My only major complaint with the Newton was its size. If the Apple-Palm device comes to pass, this is what I'd like to see....

    1. A screen the size of the Newton's with the capability of rotating the display. On the 2000's and 2100's you could rotate the display so that the Pad could be held more comfprtably in either your left or right hand as well as "vertically".

    2. Airport/wireless capability.

    3. IR support.

    4. Seemless desktop synchronization (the current HotSync application works great on the Mac though)

    5. A "slate" form-factor- Newton-sized screen with the thickness of a Palm V. I would not mind the device being larger than the current Palms as long as it was not much heavier.

    6. Built-in USB port for desktop connectivity rather than using a cradle like the current Palms.

    7. More ram.

    8. Natural handwriting recognition in addition to or instead of Grafitti.

    A device like this would be "just dreamy".



  • Newton History and handwriting future. (Score:5)

    by mr ( 88570 ) on Monday January 10, 2000 @04:57AM (#1387937)
    Back in 1997 when Steve Jobs was let back into Apple, the Newton group was worried about how long they would last.
    At the developer conference Jobs pointed to a 2000 and said:
    "Apple makes computers. Computers have keyboards. Does this have a keyboard?"

    Amelio, in an attempt to KEEP the Newton group from leaving, spun off the Newton group to Newton Inc to 'sink or swim'. Gil saw the handwriting on the wall: Jobs was removed from Apple by John Scully when Jobs tried to have Scully terminated. As Scully had claimed the Newton as 'his baby', Jobs was working to knife Scully's child. Gil also had watch Newton staff LEAVE for Palm computing when Jobs was brought on board.

    At this point, Newton Inc had prototypes of a palm-sized Newton for $500 price point. No PCMCIA card slot etc.

    After Gil was gone, the Newton division was spun 'back in'. At this point 32 of the Newton group left IN MASS to Palm. (Other things: Parts for a new run of Newtons were not being ordered, etc) So, the Newton engineers were no longer around. At this point, the Newton was without core developers.

    Given the LACK of respect Jobs showed handheld computers/PDA's, was buying Palm a GOOD idea? (IE-would the engineers have STAYED in an Steve Jobs controlled version of Palm...I don't believe so)

    Move to present day:
    Palm has the TALENT that made rosetta (the handwriting engine)
    Apple has the COPYRIGHTS to rosetta
    Both sides have lawyers.

    If Palm were to come up with REAL handwriting, Apple could sue. Even IF the new version was 'clean' of Apple code, the legal bills would go on for some time.
    How can Apple get a cheaper Palm licence? Allow Palm to use rosetta technology in a cross licence agreement.

    How long has an Apple branded Palm been rumored? Soon, the 2 year mark will be reached. The time to announce this JUST passed....the Apple love in at MacWorld.

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