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I haven't... (Score:2)
230V 16A (Score:3, Interesting)
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In the uk a standard ring main can carry 30 amps at 230 volts if your running a power strip then the plug is rated at 13 amps roughly a 3kw load. Cookers Showers immersion heaters have dedicated wiring.
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You have to be careful though. Because we use a very large ring main you could easily exceed that with a few electric heaters. Also some people do stupid things like spurs-off-spurs or wiring into the lighting ring.
But yeah, generally speaking our sockets are pretty much the best in the world IMHO. They are very safe and the plugs sit in the solidly. You can run a hell of a lot of stuff off them too.
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Yep. APC 5500VA rackmount UPS on an L6-30 receptacle with 2x 20-port step down transformers powering a couple racks of 2RU graphics servers and video extension equipment.
What, people still run Beowulf clusters, right?
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yea the first thing that came to mind was my racks..
but to be fair while a single 240v30A will hold the load i use 2 with 2x3000VA units - each box has redundant supplies so each on both UPS's.. works great.. and was worth it a couple of weeks ago when a UPS bit the dust.
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That's only nominally 240V. Many circuits that are called 240V are actually 208V split phase, i.e. the voltage between two phases of a three phase, 120V phase to ground circuit. Since the voltage ratings are usually given +/- 10%, a device that's designed for 220-230V can use either 240V or 208V. And electric ranges often draw more than 30A. More powerful modern ones can be 40A for single oven or 50A for dual oven models.
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All that current? (Score:5, Informative)
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Printers... maybe 10 Watts each.
When you upgrade from an inkjet to a real printer like a laserprinter, watch out! You'll be drawing about 2 orders of magnitude more juice while the fusor heats up.
Re:All that current? (Score:4, Funny)
For that reason alone an inkjet will pay for itself in less than a year.
Even when factoring in ink cost?
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It all depends on how much and how you use it. If you were to print only some single sheet documents the inktjet is probably cheaper, because otherwise the printer would have to heat up for each print (smaller cartridges would also be cheaper) . If you have to print 50 pages at once once a week (and let the printer be off in between) the laser is cheaper. Everything boils down to how you use it.
Except inkjets don't take well to only being used occasionally. You end up having to clean the print heads for every document, wasting a lot of ink and several test pages in the process.
Re:All that current? (Score:4, Interesting)
A laser printer is always cheaper, hands down, no questions asked, every time, unless you want photorealistic pixel-perfect quality, don't mind the cost, do it regularly and need to have it done immediately or without anyone ever seeing a potentially horribly illegal printout.
Laser printers can sit on the shelf for years, literally, and the first or second page printed will look as good as the last one from years ago. If the storage room is dry enough, unused laser printers and their toner will last for ages, they're ready for printout in seconds - if you manage to get the driver working after all these years - and the quality doesn't diminish in the least.
Inkjet printers, on the other hand, will dry out. Print heads will be slowly blocked by solidifying ink. Nozzles will be blocked after 3-9 months in storage, depending on humidity of surround air, requiring head cleaning, which wastes ink, test runs that waste ink and if nothing helps the almost iconic all-black page, where the ink slowly comes through the solid residue, also wasting ink. After 12-15 months, tiny ducts within print heads will be all-solid ink, with at least some nozzles never to be recovered through any means. For HP or Lexmark models, where the print head is included in the cartridge, getting a new cartridge will recover the printer - after investing 30-50 EUR on the cartridge. For Epson and Canon models, where the print head is irreplaceable, this means game over.
I think it helps to make one thing clear:
As long as brand-new b/w laser printers are under 100 EUR, and under 200 for color, and digicam printouts are less than 0,10 EUR when ordered online or a local 7-11-type store, all typical "home" use cases of an inkjet printer collapse immediately.
- Small digicam printouts run 0,30 EUR per page. Online order is less than half of that.
- Black-and-white pages, medium volume (1000 pages/year), run at 0,15 EUR per page. Laser printers run at 0,07 EUR per page for this.
- B/W pages, low and lowest volume (100 or 10 pages/year) run at 1,50 EUR per page, if calculated realistically, since the printer must be paid-for, and then the ink dries up after a year of no printing. Local copy shops print out at 0,15 EUR per page and their ink never dries, their quality should be perfect (or you'd find another one) and you don't need to buy your own printer first.
- Color pages, lowest volume, run at 2,00 EUR, since there's two cartridges drying up after a year and needing to be replaced. Local copy shops do it for 1,00 EUR per page.
- Color pages, medium volume, run at 0,30 EUR per page, laser printers can do for 0,15.
So the rule of thumb can be put shortly:
"For a typical home today, it is never economical, not useful and not beneficial to buy a new inkjet printer or a new inkjet cartridge."
Inkjets are for enthusiasts, specialists, rogues - and creeps.
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Inkjets are for enthusiasts, specialists, cons and creeps.
One clarification: inkjets of course have their uses and are largely irreplaceable for huge printouts, professional advertising, cartography, professional documentation, CAD etc.
These are then true "specialists", professionals. The regular home user isn't.
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I use my (laser)printer once a month. I bought it 5 years ago for $99. The cartridge the device came with has never been replaced.
I doubt I could do that with an inktjet, as the cartridge probably needed to be replaced every couple of months because of it drying out.
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What are "nappies"? If it is something to do with putting a baby down for a nap...then I don't get the sig line...what does a baby sleeping have to do with a politician?
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Nope. Standard US outlets (NEMA 5-15) are 120V/15A. Euro 230V makes basically twice the power available to a single outlet. The wire size depends on the current (Amps), not the voltage.
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The last time I was out to buy an wire for less than 10A I couldn't find any, so I made the ground circuitry of my apartment of 25A wires. Ok, that is not at Europe, but they being richer than Brazil, and requiring more powerfull equipment (for heating), I can only think they use bigger wires, not smaller.
Anyway, pushing a 4A wire into a 16A outlet is stupid. Don't you have low current outlets?
I've plugged around 10 or more into one socket; (Score:2)
but I'm talking about mostly wall wart type power supplies, into one 240v* 13a UK 3-pin socket (via a couple of power strips). One UK socket would take 10 full PCs, never mind wall warts.
*I know that we're officially on 230v European standard mains now; but in reality it's normally 240v or more at the socket. Whenever I've measured the voltage it's been around 250v. I guess legacy heavy power transformers (In the UK the last step-down transformer is usually neighbourhood level, not on a pole serving a coup
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230V is only an approximation. In Denmark it used to 220V, and other places it used to 250V. I think all you are guaranteed with the European "standard" is somewhere between 210-250V
2000->3000W should enough for most situation. Otherwise you just need to find the high-power 380V outlet used for ovens, or the high-amp outlet used for audio-equipment. And what is up with the risk of fire or explosion?, has no one heard of government mandated fuses, and minimum requirements to cables going into power outlet
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Haven't you heard? Your motherboard is the fuse. It will protect your house by taking out your cpu, power supply, ram, and drives. If that doesn't work, your power supply can do the same, taking out your cpu, ram, motherboard and drives.
Redundant protection. Because it's not "bad capacitors", it's a feature!
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Re:I've plugged around 10 or more into one socket; (Score:4, Informative)
As far as I know, it's very difficult to cause a dangerous situation with UK wiring, unless you've got some dodgy imported stuff or have some bad DIY. The fuse in the plug of the power strip will prevent you overloading the socket.
However, I've seen travel adaptors sold for use by Americans in the UK without a fuse (or covers over the terminals, or plastic sheaths around the base of the prongs). This is dangerous, since the circuit breaker is usually 30A... a short circuit in an appliance with a US plug connected to one of these adaptors could draw 30A, until the appliance's wire catches fire. (A travel adaptor sold in the UK for use by Americans would have a 3-5A fuse in the adaptor.)
Of course, none of this would be necessary if the circuit breaker was, say, 15A. Although then you'd have to have a more substantial cable for your laptop charger and table lamp.
Wattage (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm more concerned about the total wattage than the number of items. I don't mind plugging in 16+ mobile phone chargers in the same outlet but I try not to plug in more than one vaccuum cleaner.
Re:Wattage (Score:5, Funny)
I try not to plug in more than one vaccuum cleaner.
Do you have to struggle to resist the urge to plug in more than one vacuum from the same outlet?
I'm trying to picture the situation where I'd be tempted to do that, and all I can come up with is defense against a horde of oncoming zombie cats. They aren't afraid of fire, but I bet the survivors of that onslaught are people who had a) more than one vacuum and b) the restraint not to plug them into one outlet and blow it.
Re:Wattage (Score:4, Informative)
A window-mounted air conditioner and a hair dryer can easily exceed the 15 amp maximum for a 120v circuit.
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Do you have to struggle to resist the urge to plug in more than one vacuum from the same outlet?
I'm trying to picture the situation where I'd be tempted to do that, and all I can come up with is defense against a horde of oncoming zombie cats.
Hang out with a woodworker for awhile, try a radial arm saw cutting bookcase shelves to length while youthful assistant tidys up the shelves on the "stationary belt sander thingy". The machines had dedicated circuits, but starting both shop vacs at the same time on the same outlet didn't work so well. Thankfully overhead lighting was on a separate circuit.
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See this site. [electrical...portal.com] you can see a circuit breaker will not switch at the rated current. For 60 seconds the current breaker will allow more than 2x the rated current to pass.
This is safe: the wiring will need time to heat up. This is practical: many devices need a lot more current to start up, like an electric motor. A 1.2KW vacuum cleaner will need about 1.6 to 2 KW to start up.
Depends on the end devices and the socket (Score:2)
For more typical home/office use I tend to stick to no more than 75% of the max fused curre
9 to 16: low power (Score:2)
5-8: two power strips, what? (Score:2)
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power strips (Score:2)
Breakers (Score:2)
I thought that you matched the breaker to the cables it supports, then if an overload happens, it just shuts down instead of causing a fire.....
But in costa rica we are happy if the grounding is existent in a home... Freaks me out to see water heaters with the grounding cable dangling unconnected:(
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Freaks me out to see water heaters with the grounding cable dangling unconnected:(
Its not ideal, but you should be able to connect that ground cable to the cold water pipe. Its a piece of conductive material that runs into the ground. Its not ideal, but it'll work.
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Its not ideal, but you should be able to connect that ground cable to the cold water pipe. Its a piece of conductive material that runs into the ground. Its not ideal, but it'll work.
Unless they're doing the ultra-trendy PEX pipe thing.
9-16, but not all in use at once (Score:2)
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Aquarium (lights and pump) plus DVD/VCR combo, satellite box, wii, tv, stereo receiver, and speakers
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you dont have PiPiPiPiP ?
How about a whole building? (Score:5, Funny)
Had to power an entire building from a single outlet during some renovation work a few years ago.
Of course, it was a 3 phase 200A 480V 3 phase receptacle on the side of a trailer-mounted generator, but the question didn't specify what kind of "outlet" you needed to use...
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Perfectly safe here (UK) (Score:2)
The fuse in the power strip's plug will blow if the load is too high.
Re:Perfectly safe here (UK) (Score:4)
...unless you've had the cowboys in.
First proper company I worked for hired me because they were firing their (incompetent and expensive) outsourced IT and getting an in-house team. Most of the company servers were run out of a colo facility a couple of miles away but the head office ran half a dozen servers in a 48U rack in what was essentially an oversized broom cupboard.
Crowning moment of stupidity was when we discovered that, instead of installing the extra mains rail like they'd been paid to do, they'd instead used a daisy chain of gangplugs inside the cable ducting. One of these had obviously blown from the load previously - the plastic all around the socket was melted, as was the plastic insulation on the plug prongs itself. Why? It was a cheap gangplug (I doubt it even confirmed to British electrical standards, the plastic was exceptionally brittle) that was only rated for 3A (i.e. capable of delivering 720W max), but had been refitted with a 13A fuse (allowing 3.1kW) after the first fuse had blown (there were still brown burn marks on the fuse clips). It was warm, verging on hot, to the touch when I found it. Even more outrageous was the fact that the PAT people who'd been in two weeks previously hadn't noticed this error.
With proper cabling though, it's easy to run a dozen boxes off a regular 13A outlet... just woe betide someone plugging in the 3kW kettle or the 2kW laser printer at the same time.
I am no one's insensitive clod! (Score:2)
Imaging laptops (Score:3)
Probably Too Much (Score:2)
- Two lights (CFL so not much energy, probably 40W combined, one was 120W equiv.)
- Router
- Alarm clock
- Cable modem
- USB hub
- Fan
- Air conditioner
Some other stuff, I forget now...
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At my previous flat, I had the following plugged into one outlet:
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Darn.
I didn't post in plain text so I lost the line breaks.
again, more readable:
The hotplate is probably a bigger load than everything else combined.
I was surprised how little current a refrigerator (actually a really old freezer I have in the garage) drew when I checked it with my Kill-A-Watt.
I'd *estimate* ....should be OK, as long as the hotpla
Refrigirator - 100W
Gamer PC - 150W
Monitor - 90W
Halogen lamp - 100W
Cable Modem - 30W
Router - 50W
Printer - 75W
Hotplate - 1000W
Phone Charger - 30W
total: 1625W
Just a little smoke... (Score:2)
UPS: - 2 strips with 2 others plugged into them. The strips have computer, monitor,
2 disc arrays, router, 5 external drives, and laptop docking station
So far, the system has survived all short term power failures (under 15 minutes). Longer term ones
cause the system to automatically shut down.
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Plug 1 - 1 UPS, 1 low-power scale, 1 strip with 4 low power devices and 13w CFL reading light
UPS: - 2 strips with 2 others plugged into them. The strips have computer, monitor,
2 disc arrays, router, 5 external drives, and laptop docking station
So far, the system has survived all short term power failures (under 15 minutes). Longer term ones
cause the system to automatically shut down.
I have seen hilarity when a very large UPS and a large (for the time) compute cluster were installed on a circuit that could only supply enough power to run either the cluster OR run the beefy UPS while the UPS was in drained battery charge mode. Hilarious, I tell you. This was a telco facility BTW so we're talking A and B -48 VDC bus and separate "rectifier" "charger" units.
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My most heavily loaded socket: (Score:2)
In my bedroom a power strip runs from the wall (occasionally I plug things into here), then My UPS plugs into that (I know, it could trip unnecesarily, I'll change it sometime) through a kill-a-watt. Then a desktop power controller (box with a buncha switches for cutting power to different components) plugs into the UPS, and my gaming desktop, monitor, and 2 PDA chargers plug into that.
Ob (Score:2)
220, 221, whatever it takes.
Items is ambiguous (Score:2)
Ran a seasonal store once (Score:2)
Was only open for Xmas shopping season, closed before the New Year hit. It wasn't a large space, but we only had two outlets and a large number of cheezy knickknacks that displayed much better when you could plug them in. When we requested more be installed the Mall told us it would take about three months to get the work done, which basically was the majority of the time the store was going to be open. I ended up buying a series of extension cords and power strips and hoped the whole setup didn't burn d
Poll responses should be in Watts (Score:2)
It's not about how many devices, it's about power draw.
Desktop: 365 W
Laptop: 65 W
3x External HD: 36 W total
Router: 12 W
total: 478 W. It's just not that much.
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365W is a 27" iMac. Obviously the drives aren't all running all the time; we're talking peak usage here. I know plenty of people with towers that pull 500 watts (not counting a display).
It's the only outlet in the room (Score:2)
So where else am I supposed to string 3 powerstrips with 6 to 8 outlets on each to for all of my electronic gadgets? And this isn't even covering the extra monitors and speakers for the extra PC's.
I plug a power strip into itself. (Score:5, Funny)
The current loop generates infinite free electricity.
Problem, electrical engineers?
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It's true. You will, forever, maintain a constant 0 volts.
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If you want to confuse a bunch of UPSes plug about 4-5 of them into each other in a circle.
Disclaimer: don't.
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Yeah, you need a wall socket. Everybody knows that electricity comes from wall sockets. Get one from your local home store, wire it to a cord, and plug the cord back into it.
The results of trying this experiment with a UPS are highly variable, but always entertaining ***
( *** VLM not to be held liable by people replicating this experiment )
Two Power Strips? Hardly necessary. (Score:2)
I have plenty of power strips with 8 or 10 sockets laying around. I'd never hook them up to each other, but if I'm setting up some friends for a LAN, we can easily get 8-10 devices (mostly laptops and routers) plugged into a single strip. 8-10 (or more) devices isn't that heavy of a load, for many electronics. We don't have crappy wiring, and we don't buy crappy power strips.
That doesn't mean I'm going to plug the fridge or a heater into one, though.
One 15 Amp Duplex Outlet (Score:2)
code (Score:2)
Code doesn't limit the number of outlets per circuit, so a better question might be, number of items per circuit rather than outlet.
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Code doesn't limit the number of outlets per circuit, so a better question might be, number of items per circuit rather than outlet.
For those not in the business, arguing about NEC 220.14 (I) is pretty much the electricians equivalent of vi vs emacs, it gets very loud, often personal, and no one really cares, aside from acknowledging that its an area "subject to differing interpretation".
If you believe 220.14 (I) applies then you're limited to a crazy minimum 180 watts per receptacle so that gives a crazy high, yet hard limit to the number of outlets per 15 amp ckt.
If you believe 220.14 (I) does not apply then the above post is true, I
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Wattage not count (Score:2)
Hair dryer plus microwave on the same circuit pops the breaker every time. Number per outlet is entirely less important than total wattage per circuit.
Pile of wall warts, flourescent bulbs in desk lamps, radio, etc all on one circuit draws far less than any hair dryer, microwave, and most PC's.
+ than 16 and not waiting for a bang (Score:2)
As some already said, the most problematic thing is total power. Ok, when you start plugging too many things you'd better start looking for badly connected adaptors and short circuits too.
I've already plugged on the same outlet 4 computers (that means 4 monitors, and 4 speaker sets), with normal periferals, AKA, a printer, scanner, a telefone, some sporadic chargers, modem, switch, external drivers, PDA, etc. A quick calculation showed that the risk of the outlet burning was small, and none of the wiring ha
It's not the load, it's the plugs (Score:2)
The problem isn't the load.
Wall-warts and computers don't draw that much.
The problem is outlet density.
Each wall-wart takes one outlet, and typically blocks one or two others.
That eats up plug strips fast.
I like to string grounded taps [yourstorewizards.com] together.
If you shop around, you can find them for maybe $3/each.
Each one accommodates 2 wall-warts, for a final cost of $1.50/wall-wart.
2x the power (Score:2)
I`ll one-up you there (Score:2)
Brand new lab: one plug ! (Score:2)
Smoked a power strip (Score:3, Funny)
I was setting up sound and lighting for a small outdoor event. We had power from 3 outlets, with a maximum capacity of about 2,500W per outlet. Plenty of capacity for a mixer, power amp, powered sub-woofer, and a couple of spots.
Things were going fine until we lost power to the mixer and a couple of the spotlights. After tracing back cables I discovered that the overload protection on one of the power strips had tripped (without knowing why). No problem - press the button and we're back in business.
The second time it happened it must have melted the overload protection, because the lights went off and on again a couple of times, and then the smoke started.
"Did anyone just plug something in to this?"
"No. Well only these lights.
"Can you take a look on the back of those and see how many watts they are?"
"This one says 2x500W. I presume the other ones over there are the same."
Silly questions ... number of items irrelevant ... (Score:5, Informative)
As others have properly pointed out, the number of items is irrelevant, at least if safety was the intent of the question.
The total maximum current draw is more significant, as is the kind of load put upon the circuit. A refrigerator or air conditioner is a different load than a heater or hair dryer, which is a different load than a transformer-powered device, which is again different from a switching power supply device. They each have their little electrical "quirks" and draw power somewhat differently, and that does matter with regard to the load you're asking it to provide.
A lot of people think that the house wiring can supply a certain, finite amount of current, limited by the safe rating of the outlet. For example, they might assume a 15 amp 120V circuit can supply the 1800 watts the math suggests (A x V = W). Even if they're aware that this 1800W is only available at the breaker box, not after the losses in getting that power to your outlet, and even if they're aware that the utility may not be always supplying a steady 120V (if, for example, the utility drops voltage to 110V for a few hours a day, the maximum falls from 1800W to 1650 for that time period) they still see the power outlet as supplying a finite amount of energy.
That's not how it works (and professionals, please excuse the simplification of what is to follow). The outlet will happily and dutifully try to supply whatever you ask it to ... if you plug in 2200W of "stuff" into the outlet, your electrical system will try it's very best to give you the 2200 watts. It will probably even succeed for a while (maybe not 2200 watts, but some value greater than 15A and 120V), given a well implemented setup and solid work by the electrical contractor who built your home. In fact, the utility and your home wiring are often robust enough that you may get away with that overload enough times that you may believe the number of things you've plugged in is a safe load. After all, you plugged in that "extra" thingy and it worked, right?
It's protected by a breaker at the utility service entrance, right? That breaker is rated at [some value] so as soon as you ask for more electricity, it will trip and tell you it's too much, right?
Wrong. The breaker has no idea how much electricity you're asking for. It doesn't trip at 15 Amps and 120V. It senses heat, an indirect measurement of voltage and current, not a metered, precise amount. Breakers can fail, each time they trip they become somewhat less reliable, and they only are built to "guess" that a certain amount of heat is equal to a certain amount of electrical load. They're not speedometers.
So, it's an overload. There will be heat and sparks and who knows what happening inside the walls. Sooner or later, there will be a fire.
It's not like the garden hose where given your water pressure and size of lines, only so much water is going to come out. Ask your electrical system for more, and it will give you more. Until the fire, that is.
A certain safety margin is required, and that depends on the age and condition of your wiring, the quality of your utility's power delivery, and a few other factors. The best advice is to use a safe load limit as your guide; from standard North American power that would be probably around 1350 watts at the outlet. Go above, and trouble might be the next thing that happens.
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It's protected by a breaker at the utility service entrance, right? That breaker is rated at [some value] so as soon as you ask for more electricity, it will trip and tell you it's too much, right? Wrong. The breaker has no idea how much electricity you're asking for. It doesn't trip at 15 Amps and 120V. It senses heat, an indirect measurement of voltage and current, not a metered, precise amount. Breakers can fail, each time they trip they become somewhat less reliable, and they only are built to "guess" that a certain amount of heat is equal to a certain amount of electrical load. They're not speedometers.
That's not quite right. A resettable breaker (i.e. not a fuse that has to be replaced) measures two parameters. The first is indeed heat. That's to trip before the wire reaches dangerous temperatures in a moderate overload for a long time scenario. The characteristics of the breaker will indeed specify how much overload it will tolerate for how long, otherwise starting motors etc. would be a bear. That's as it should, in a properly designed and installed circuit the breaker will trip long before you have an
You have what? (Score:2, Funny)
What is a BBS and what are modems? Is this something new?
Re:You have what? (Score:5, Funny)
Just call it low-speed cloud services and you're pretty much up-to-date.
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It is amazing how much IT people can know about electronics and still know so little about electricity. (I'm not criticizing: I'm in the same boat.)
Power management is a deep field. Any serious server installation with more than a handful of servers should have some thought put into power.
And I don't mean just having a UPS. I mean ensuring that you're not overloading a circuit on the box, or a wire in the line, or other related issues. And that your current is clean and steady. Ya know... mysterious stuff l
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Well, when you move into a house (buying or renting) you don't get a choice in that 99% of the time, unless you are buying a house and get to it before it is completely built.
I'm renting...have an office with a business internet connection...I've got a compaq proliant and a De
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World of difference.
A rack of 1U servers easily tops 8KW+
A few desktops spread around a nerd's den as well as various kit - 200-300W tops.OK, make that 1200W if there is a gamer rig in the mix.
The former needs knowing what you are doing. The latter - who cares. You can daisychain 4 strips and you are still nowhere near overloading them. At most your earth may float a bit off.
Re:LAN parties (Score:4, Insightful)
It is an issue I no longer worry about since moving to the UK. Literally every power plug has a fuse in it (typically 13 ampere), so if any consumer builds a tree of power strips and takes it a step too far, a fuse will blow. Their electricity systems may be huge, clunky and ugly, but they sure are well-designed.
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Their electricity systems may be huge, clunky and ugly, but they sure are well-designed.
I'm always surprised at the large number of above-ground domestic power-lines in US cities, ours are mostly below ground.
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A "business" desktop is about 100W, add 40-50W for an LCD display. But a desktop with a high end video card that's busy running a game will use a lot more.
So 20 laptops * 0.5 amps (0.5 if assuming crappy power factor, otherwise it's about 0.3 amps) is about 10amps which is fine for a 240V outlet (assuming you use decent power strips).
If you can run a 2 kilowatt heater/kettle off an outlet with no problems, it means you can run 20 l
Wall Warts burn power strip space. (Score:2)
I've got 3-4 power strips under my desk, but that's because most of the space is used by various wall warts that can cover 2-3 sockets worth of space on the power strip. Some of them are on little extension cords or squid things that let you save space, but most of them are just annoying.
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It has its own insurance that covers 25,000 in equipment should it fail to protect.
Careful study of the policy will show it can never be collected upon, thus not worth very much.
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