Sandia's Smart Heat Pipe 189
An anonymous reader writes "Science Blog is reporting a story from Sandia National Laboratory, best known for its nuclear weapons research. "Evacuating heat is one of the great problems facing engineers as they design faster laptops by downsizing circuit sizes and stacking chips one above the other. The heat from more circuits and chips increase the likelihood of circuit failures as well as overly heated laps. "Space, military, and consumer applications, are all bumping up against a thermal barrier," says Sandia researcher Mike Rightley, whose newly patented "smart" heat pipe seems to solve the problem. The simple, self-powered mechanism transfers heat to the side edge of the computer, where air fins or a tiny fan can dissipate the unwanted energy into air."
My laptop is always very hot... (Score:4, Insightful)
Sometimes the better thing is simply a more well though out design, all this newer technology is good too of course but people need to stop substituting higher technology for stupidity.
Re:My laptop is always very hot... (Score:4, Interesting)
Or how about (GASP!) someone making a SMP laptop? a pair of mobile P-III processors with a modern OS will do the job quite nicely and cooler than the P-4 2.2ghz oven or the equilivant AMD blast furnace sitting there. (Note to the SMP naysayers.. W2K will take advantage of that SMP even though the apps you run will not. The same way linux has for years.)
and this heat thing is only going to get worse.... as we stop using batteries and start using fuel burning power supplies in laptops.
Too late... (Score:4, Funny)
Q.
Re:Too late... (Score:4, Funny)
Perhaps all the talk about "fluid interchange" was a bit too much for him to handle in a mature manner...
-Mark
Re:Too late... (Score:1)
Next you know he'll sue frying pan makers because he likes eating bacon right off the pan which he rests on his lap...
If its hot, don't touch it... simple rule.
Tom
Re:Too late... (Score:5, Interesting)
In this case, the machine probably got warm, but not so quickly nor so much that it ever became really uncomfortable (and if your attention is fixed on your work, the threshold is even higher). Also, to some extent you can exchange temperature for time in getting an equivalent burn; ie. while something needs to be scalding hot to burn you with just a touch, it can be considerably cooler if it's in contact for a long period.
Re:Too late... (Score:2, Funny)
Unfortunately, he's a vegitarian.
Re:Too late... (Score:2)
Here's a science project: take a cup of hot water, like really hot tap water. Then drop in some raw egg white. What you'll see, over a short period (but far from instant), is that the egg white becomes solid. That's because the proteins in the egg white are denaturing.
Proteins denature at temperatures not incredibly far above body temperature, and the rate increases with rising temperature. Your cells are full of proteins, and prolonged exposure to temperatures that simply feel really warm can damage them. It does have to be for a pretty long time.
Don't worry about hot tubs and saunas, unless you plan to live in one. If you can stand the heat over your entire body, it's not hot enough to denature your proteins yet. I believe 160F is about where there is a danger, but IANAD.
Re:Too late... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Too late... (Score:2)
all together now
"We know what you were doing
We know what you were doing"
Medical Terminology (Score:1, Informative)
phimosis: unretractable foreskin
balanitis: inflammation of the helmet
No, he might get something out of it. (Score:2)
there's an idea... (Score:5, Insightful)
colder clients being the 66F computer room? i know 66F isn't that cold, but when you're drinking a code red, my hands get quite numb in there. be nice to be able to flip a switch and redirect that heat up into the keyboard instead of the edge...
Re:there's an idea... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:there's an idea... (Score:5, Funny)
Because when we find ourselves in the data center at the system console, it's usually because something Very Bad has happened. Our brain decides (at a subliminal level) to take drastic measures to avoid having to deal with such tasks in the future.
Re:there's an idea... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:there's an idea... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:there's an idea... (Score:3, Funny)
Uncool news (Score:2, Troll)
Altho its nice to have better cooling for computers, this news is just redundant.
Re:Uncool news (Score:2)
keep my coffee warm (Score:4, Funny)
Re:keep my coffee warm (Score:1)
Re:keep my coffee warm (Score:2)
Re:keep my coffee warm (Score:2)
News... Why??? It's been done before. (Score:3, Informative)
Yes, this technology is significantly better than air being blown over a heatsink on a CPU.
No, it's nothing new. Shuttle small-form-factor PCs anyone? And Dell Inspiron 8x00 series laptops too. Probably other laptop manufacturers are also already using heat pipes.
Re:News... Why??? It's been done before. (Score:2)
Re:News... Why??? It's been done before. (Score:3, Informative)
This invention just looks (from the uninformative article) as if they hae some improvements on the mechanical structire and on helping the methanol get thr right idea about where to flow (cappillaries with "one way" structires, I would guess).
As said elsewhere, only incremental. But then, the latest Pentium is "only incremental" on the original 386 - but thos increments have taken us a long way.
Re:News... Why??? It's been done before. (Score:2, Informative)
Re:News... Why??? It's been done before. (Score:4, Insightful)
This device (as is says at the end of the article) uses capillary action to move the cooling liquid from the hot side to the cool side. It doesn't say if this is more efficient than phase change. I expect that it would work better in non-stationary applications, where a phase change material would just get mixed up. They list military wearables as a potential application.
Capillary action (Score:4, Informative)
Even these new heat pipes almost surely use a phase change - It's most likely possible to do it without a phase change, but far less effective/efficient. Current heat pipes use a phase change combined with capillary action - Gas vaporizes on heat source, condenses at radiator, and is wicked back. Heat pipes can be made without wicks, but they are orientation-sensitive - i.e. the condenser must be above the evaporator so gravity will bring the condensed medium back to the heat source. The Shuttle may not use a wick since the condenser is higher than the CPU, but in Dell laptops they are even, I'm positive that laptop heatpipes already use wicks.
Re:News... Why??? It's been done before. (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:News... Why??? It's been done before. (Score:5, Insightful)
Read the whole article, it is different. The difference is that:
1) They're using methanol, which at least some of the current commercial heatpipes don't.
2) They're using some sort of lithography to carve micron-scale curved pathways into the inside of the tubing. These are customized in order to wick the methanol to the correct locations. This allows them to really "shape" the methanol flow for much better efficiency (send 30% methanol to hot spot A and 70% to hot spot B, and release the heat at sink spot C), instead of just having the vapors/liquids roam around as they choose. This is a boon for any heatpipe, but especially if you have an embedded device that might need complex heatpipe routing to/from possibly multiple heat sources and heat sinks.
Re:News... Why??? It's been done before. (Score:3, Informative)
Also, traditional heat pipes rely on elevation differences to maintain flow.
Phase-change nothing new (Score:3, Informative)
Refrigerator design (Score:2)
Actually my main thought is that this makes living comfortably off the grid even more viable.
All that compressor-based stuff? Fridges with motors and coils and water traps? Naw, they's just for thems as don't know any better.
I *love* living in the future!
Rustin
Living in the future? (Score:3, Interesting)
How cool is that, to use a flame for refrigeration? It's so cool that it is still used today in things like Recreational Vehicle refrigerators. See here [howstuffworks.com].
SUE (Score:1, Redundant)
The bonus - here is a link for a genius who wanted to water cool his cpu http://www.avforums.com/frame.html?http://www.avf
Re:SUE (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:SUE (Score:2)
Jesus! After reading on, it becomes apparent that it's not a wind up, he genuinely made his PC watertight, and filled it with water! Talk about running gung-ho into something without doing some research first!
This guy is the stuff of legends. If he had touched the case and died from the electrical shock, we'd be reading about him in the Darwin Awards!
Re:SUE (Score:2)
As an average Joe... (Score:3, Interesting)
Space? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Space? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Space? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Space? (Score:3, Informative)
Conduction is heat transfer thru direct contact. You touch the stove, it burns your skin.
Convection is the transfer of heat via a moving medium. Air at the earth's surface is warmed by the sun's radiation, causing the air to rise. The heat is then transferred to the surrounding cold air, which causes the previously warm air to sink back down.
Radiation if the transfer of heat via electromagnetic radiation. All objects above absolute zero emit some form of EM radiation in proportion to the fourth power of their absolute temperature. Also involved is a coefficient that depends on how close a radiator is to an ideal 'black body' - ie a perfect radiator. See Stefan-Boltzmann equation Inet = e*s*A(T^4 - T0^4) where Inet is the net power radiated in Watts, e is the emissivity coefficient, s is Stefan's constant = 5.6703 x 10-8 W/m^2 K^4, A is the area, and T is the absolute temp and T0 is the ambient temp. (To get the total radiation emitted, set T0 = 0). The peak wavelength of the radiation is given by Wein's displacement law, lambda = 2.898 mm * K / T, where the 2.898 mm * K is a universal constant and T is the absolute temp of the object.
For example, a person has about 1.4m^2 of skin at 33C = 306K. If you assume they're a perfect radiator, in a room at 20C the person is emitting 111W of power, net. The emission peak wavelength is approx 9.5 um, which is in the part of the EM spectrum called "infrared".
Re:Space? (Score:3, Informative)
Zero-g is also a factor. Lovell actually commented in his debriefing that you could get warmer if you didn't move. A small blanket of warm air would form around you, and since there was not much to move it around (all the fans being shut off) it would just stay there. Then you'd move and you'd be freezing again.
Forget... (Score:2, Interesting)
cooling engineers. We need to continue working towards things like 0.01 micron process (and smaller), fiber optic interconnects, and use the technologies like from Alchemy, Inc. like I'm sure AMD is doing.
What I'm really hoping for one day is a chip made entirely of fiber optics. Sure it's a ways off, but certainly should help speed and heat issues.
Re:Forget... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Forget... (Score:2)
Had a presentation of this once (Score:5, Informative)
The article talks about how the methanol vaporizes at one end, and condenses at the other. Then the liquid wicks back to the first end, where it can be vaporized again. You don't necessarily have to use methanol; the coolant is varied according to the temperature range you operate in.
The pipe pressure is carefully set so that the vaporization takes place at the optimal temperature. Usually these pipes are used in a vertical configuration, so that the vapor rises and gets to the other end more quickly, and the condensate sinks to other end quickly. The heat pipe behavior is then kind of like a passive heat diode.
A use for heat pipes was presented; apparently a lot of structures were sinking on the Alaska pipeline. When the ground was frozen, everything was fine...but the permafrost was receding in the warm months. The solution was to keep the ground frozen all the time, by removing heat from about 20 feet down. Heat pipes were constructed with a vaporization point at the desired temperature, and sunk into the ground at the problem areas. The ground stayed frozen, and the problem was solved.
Smart Heat Pipes (Score:2, Interesting)
Because HPT equipment treats the entire home with dry-cooled air, there is no need for additional dehumidifiers or special equipment. Not only is dry-cooling better for you, it costs less to operate, usually recovering a payback on installation within 2 to 4 years as you set the thermostat 2 to 3 F higher.
The heat pipe dehumidification process is automatically activated any time the air conditioner is operating. In the winter, the smart heat pipes automatically deactivate, allowing your central heating system to operate as normal.
Re:Had a presentation of this once (Score:2)
I'm an electrical engineer, but it's basic thermo so I think I've got a handle on it
great! (Score:1)
Exacerbating the heat-death of the universe. Whee!
psxndc
Other uses for heat (Score:5, Interesting)
I wonder what else designers could do with that extra heat energy. If these heat pipes turn methanol into vapor, carry it to heat fans, then recondense it (due to heat loss) back into liquid.... isn't this process quite similar to how turbines work with steam? I wonder how much power could be gleaned from the extra heat. Maybe someone could design a tiny electrical generator. I doubt you could run anything significant off the power output, but I'm sure there could be some use for it, rather than simply letting that extra energy go to waste.
Re:Other uses for heat (Score:5, Informative)
It might be worth it if you could come up with a super-efficient generator, but that's pretty unlikely. Furthermore, the temperature gradients here are pretty low (boiling point of methanol vs. room temp), so there's not a whole lot of ooomph to drive your generator. Heat pipe designers are pretty happy when they can use this thermal gradient just to power their heat pipe convection, actual generation seems a long way off.
Thermodynamics (Score:2)
And then someone suggests that we use the generator to power the laptop so we don't need the battery anyway...
I mean there is just enough energy here to make sure the fluid in the heat pipe flows. When you have all the mechanical losses involved in the minature turbine and alternator, not to mention the heat generated by the turbine/alternator combination.
Then you have the problem of the fact that the output of the alternator will need rectifying and regulating as the speed varies according to heat load.
The you have issue to do with the noise generated by these mechanical devices.
And you have to do all this with tiny mechanical devices that will fit in a laptop.
It seems odd to come up with a system that can transport heat to a remote passive radiator in small form devices so, in an ideal world, you don't need a mechanical fan. And then use a tiny mechanical generating plant.
Don't get me wrong, an interesting thought experiment, but given the losses in power generation its not practical.
Re:Thermodynamics (Score:3, Insightful)
Agreed.
I think you would get more bang for the buck by improving the efficiency in the laptop components themselves so that they don't put out so much heat - which is exactly what is done. If you get a top-of-the-line laptop you'll need insulated pants to avoid 2nd degree burns, but if you get a new laptop built for battery life (and not performance) then you'll find it runs much cooler.
The reason for the heat bleed is that they are always rushing to get the fastest processor out - by the time they can make it cooler nobody wants it.
If one were to do the math, the wasted heat can't be more than a few watts at most, and there isn't a whole lot you could do with that even if you could efficiently turn it to electricity at a high enough voltage.
unwanted energy? (Score:1)
Re:unwanted energy? (Score:2)
Wrong chips! (Score:4, Insightful)
Oh, wait, Bill doesn't want to support Windows on those chips. My bad. He'd rather force the rest of the industry and users to deal with crappy, Intel-specific problems like heat and power consumption than construct a product that's actually well-designed and portable. Yea, that's "innovative".
b.g.
Re:Wrong chips! (Score:3, Funny)
And I believe I've heard mention on this site of some alternative Operating Systems to Windows. I'll try to find the link to that article.
Re:Wrong chips! (Score:2)
Legalise drugs and ban Intel for a better world all round!
Re:Wrong chips! (Score:2)
If you're going to rant, at least do it correctly. Windows NT used to run on many different architectures, but people only bought the x86 version. Windows CE does run on many architectures.
Heat from cooling. (Score:1)
"It's clear now that the smaller we go, the more that cooling engineers need to be involved early in product design."
How small could these pipes be? Could methonol filled nanotubes vent heat from processors? Or would liquid nitrogen still be the move?
I would think liquid nitrogen would be better for troops - I don't know about you, but were I a troop, predator or no predator, I would want the smallest infrared signature possible in combat. And processor temperatures ought to show up nicely while venting, - also, the troops could dip ballons and bannanas in the nitrogen and then shatter them to impress villagers.
Heat donation (Score:3, Funny)
Glad it's all done for a good cause. I just hope it's tax deductible
Re:Heat donation (Score:1)
Re:Heat donation (Score:2)
Oh, wait, I get it.... You'll *melt* them with the heat,
then pour them?
But... you said they were freezing, not melting...
I'm confused again.
fried geek anyone? (Score:4, Funny)
Or your skin.
Re:fried geek anyone? (Score:1)
I think the engineers missed something here.
Re:fried geek anyone? (Score:2)
The real meaning of "memory leak" (Score:1, Informative)
And the old problems with heat pumps will return- leaks that short out the machine, the added complexity of the design, yet another part to get disconnected, and idiots buring themselves by opening the box and touching the thing after it's been running for days.
Heat sinks are just that- sinks. They hold the heat, they don't disperse it. Almost any heat dispersal method is preferable to heat sinks, which is preferable to no thermal control whatsoever.
But they better make those tubes industrial-strength, especially on laptops. Computers are put through a lot rougher treatment than they're ever specced for; the hoses used for this had better be up to the task.
I can see a very real possibility of a computer springing a leak and shorting itself out, and/or dripping on the user and scalding him/her- and that user very well might have reason to sue.
It's a good idea. Just as it was the first time. But engineers need to take this type of thing into account in the original spec; it can't be slapped on at the end like just another Microsoft UI.
Re:The real meaning of "memory leak" (Score:4, Informative)
They work most efficiently in a vertical configuration (warm vapor rises, cool droplets fall), so Sandia's work is very useful: they are developing more efficient ways to transfer the liquid back to the hotspot in a horizontal configuration, via capillary action instead of gravity.
Re:The real meaning of "memory leak" (Score:2)
Me, because the processor will now burst into flames.
Patents? (Score:2, Interesting)
This research is funded by the American tax payer. Why are they patenting it? Doesn't it belong in the public domain?
Re:Patents? (Score:2)
Miniaturize that acoustic cooling tech? (Score:2, Interesting)
Has anything been said about energy impact?... moving liquids around requires more work than moving gases I would guess.
Possible Problems and uses (Score:3, Funny)
This guy [news.com.au] may have had the external vents in the wrong location.
On the other hand the extra heat vented to the outside edges could be a handy deterent to theft, just change from sleep mode to heat mode.
And I'm eager to Evaluate the new George Foreman laptop.
Yes, is new (Score:2, Informative)
Because of this, it can easily be fit into an existing design with minimal re-engineering of your product. That's where the cost comes into play for manufacturers -- or has no one noticed that we don't see liquid cooling in consumer computers yet? Too expensive to add into existing designs. Also, you get one leak, there goes your computer. Not to mention the potential hazards of having a liquid flowing over live electrical circuits.
Small size, small amount of coolant liquid, and no need to add mechanical pumps. Any laptop manufacturer could add this and not have to increase the price to cover the retooling costs for the manufacturing process. This means a faster -- and naturally hotter -- chip could be put into the laptop. That will mean laptops that are as fast as desktops, instead of lagging behind by a few years.
What's the name of the company that will be making these things? I want to buy stock NOW while I can still afford it!!!!
Re:Yes, is new (Score:2)
Re:Yes, is new (Score:2)
They already do. My Dell 8100 (bought 10 months ago) has one on the CPU moving heat to the back of the case.
Jon.
Alyeska Pipeline is a very large heat pipe user (Score:5, Informative)
So if you look at the picture on the site, the heat pipe is actually built into the support structure of the pipe joints. The little vanes on the posts wick away heat that is absorbed from the ground. They use a substance that has a very low vapor pressure in order to capitalize on the energy released in the latent heat of vaporization and condensation of the anhydrous ammonia (caused by the cold Alaska air circling around the vanes). You can find the details of this huge heat-pipe installation on their Web site [alyeska-pipe.com].
Pretty cool (literally)!
TTFN
Re:Alyeska Pipeline is a very large heat pipe user (Score:2)
I was too lazy to find a link or two.
So, the government's discovered water-cooling.... (Score:2)
Then the government will truly be l33t.
Where's the "Smart"? (Score:3, Insightful)
What's the difference between them and this? They talk about technology but to those of us who don't know the specifics of *traditional* heat pipe manufacture, it means nothing.
Re: (Score:2)
Again? (Score:2)
http://www.manningworldnews.com/archives/00000264
Frustrating to kill your batteries with heat... (Score:2)
Seems to me that even a small improvement in thermal efficiency of the processor would reduce TWO reasons to consume my precious battery power. Anything short of this seems like a hack - a stopgap solution until we get better thermal efficiency at the source of the problem.
Now this gives me an idea... (Score:2)
Any, any, reduction is actual generated heat reduces the amount of additional energy needed to move that produced waste heat. The benefits are two-fold. Higher initial electrical efficiency, coupled with lower power requirements for running mechanical fans. However, some heat pipe designs (depending on their thermal characteristics) move heat well enough to be able to remove the mechanical fan as well. So, I don't think it's a stop-gap, per se. Just a good solution to the wrong problem.
But every time I make a suggestion that we work smarter, instead of brute forcing everything, I get modded down. I guess that means I should just post more crap, instead of better... you be the judge.
Actually this is a workable idea (Score:2, Interesting)
The article gave no detail about why these new devices are 'smart', so I suspect it's used as a buzz word to grab attention. While the heat pipes aren't particular smart, applying them to CPU cooling is a good idea. I wish I had thought of it.
However, even more interesting is the size. If I were to design a cooling system using these, I'd use a flexible ribbon to move the heat up to the back plane of the screen. This has the ideal characteristic of having a large radiating area that's rarely covered up. Back of the envelope calculations show that you can cool a typical CPU by 40 degrees (130F to 90F) with only 4.5F increase in the back plane temperature. This idea is even more attractive for metal cased laptops.
However, I suspect that their use will be more general, extending to desktops: imagine completely passive CPU cooling - no fan, no pump, just a heat pipe the case.
I'll be interested to see if this idea makes it into general use, or whether our pc manufacturers are too hide bound to change.
Re: (Score:2)
thermocouples (Score:2)
Re:thermocouples (Score:2, Informative)
When you have a 200 watt power supply driving the thing that isn't a problem. For a laptop it would exhaust the batteries pretty quickly.
Hoover Dam (Score:2)
This will enable faster laptops? (Score:2, Insightful)
Give me a laptop HD as fast as a low end desktop drive and then we can talk about better cooling....
How about radiation though? (Score:2)
Thing which bothered me about that was that he felt nothing whilst using the laptop; the pain & blisters appeared some time after using the laptop.
It occurs to me that this makes radiated or conducted heat from the laptop an unlikely culprit; I'd expect pain at the time of heat transferrence not a delayed effect.
Radiation on the other hand could produce such a delayed burn effect, right? Or not?
At the CPU/bus speeds these days, 2GHz processors? They must be emmitting some pretty serious radio signals, and very close like that the inverse quare law won't have blunted its teeth, so to speak.
Maybe, just maybe, modern high speed procs need radiation shielding for close-quarters use?
Heck, maybe Dubbya could have Saddam for possessing radiological weapons just for possessing a multi GHz proc or two...
oh that last quip was a *joke*
this is not a good idea. (Score:2)
Re:Damn bluesky, its just an illuminated night sky (Score:5, Insightful)
Happy now???
Damn Joint Strike Fighter, its just a more advanced
Wright Flyer, no news here.
Damn AIDs vaccine, they are just repeating Dr Jenner's smallpox vaccine.
Damn airconditioning, its just a reverse campfire.
Damn,... well you get the idea.
Re:Damn bluesky, its just an illuminated night sky (Score:2)
You're missing the point -- the JSF doesn't break the limits set by the F-22 either, nor is it intended to. It is intended to provide a cheap versatile platform suitable for common usage by a variety of services in a variety of nations, and with enough capability and punch to top anything it's actually likely to meet in combat. For hardcore air-superiority missions (if there are any), things like the F22, the new boeing daylight stealth designs, and other things now on the drawing board will serve quite well, thank you.
For a good piece on the design goals and selection process of the JSF, check out this piece [theatlantic.com] from the Atlantic.
As for the Su-27, what of it? It's a nice trick plane, but aerobatics and raw platform capabilities have much less to do with modern air combat than targeting technologies and smart munitions -- check out, e.g. recent joint training sessions, in which Israeli pilots armed with 180 degree targeting capabilities and in-helmet HUDs won 220 out of 240 mock engagements against USMC pilots in identical aircraft, but without such toys. (and yes, unlike USMC, the USAF and to some extent the Navy have such toys and more...)
Its not even a refridgeration cycle!!!!!!!! (Score:3, Insightful)
This is however closer to a more advanced heat fin technology, heat fins are used to wick heat away from a heat source, but eventually a point in the fin becomes too cold to tranfer heat and making the fin longer doesnt' do you any good, so what do you do now?
Use a heat pipe to move the heat form one place to another, namely another set of fins, or the same fins to get more use out of their length.
So what is the main difference between your fridge and a heat pipe, one sucks energy out of something , making it colder then room temperature, and another one transports heat to another source but can never make it cooler then room termperature.
Re:Its not even a refridgeration cycle!!!!!!!! (Score:2)
Maybe there is a little Volkswagon in there as they built engines that didn't even need water. Air cooled and even grabed the heat off the engine to heat the passenger compartment in the winter.
Steam engines worked using an almost reverse principle. They add heat to the water to get it to expand and the use the energy of the expanding water to do work.
While not taking anything away from the guys at Sandia for figuring out how to do this on the scale that they are talking about and for the purposes they are considering, it has been done. Now if the guys and gals at Sandia can figure out how to generate the heat (from circuits) using energy, move it, and use the heat energy again, they will really have something. They will have helped energy efficency dramatically.