Microsoft Unveils the Surface Laptop, a Traditional Notebook That Is 'Better' Than MacBook Pro (engadget.com) 247
On the sidelines of Windows 10 S and affordable Chromebook-like laptops announcements, Microsoft also announced the newest addition to its Surface computing lineup. Dubbed the Surface Laptop, the laptop starts at $999, and is for everyone, the company claims, though the focus is on students and professionals. From a report: The Surface Laptop includes a 13.5-inch PixelSense display (Microsoft's branding for its unique screen technology) and a keyboard draped in Alcantara, a smooth cloth-like material. It's powered by Intel's most recent Core i5 and Core i7 CPUs, and it can pack in an SSD up to 1TB (that's notably integrated directly onto the motherboard). Performance-wise, Microsoft's Surface head, Panos Panay, claims the Laptop is 50 percent faster than the Core i7 MacBook Air while also being lighter. (Editor's note: Panos added that the Surface Laptop also outpaces the MacBook Pro on performance.) You can also expect up to 14.5 hours of battery life, thanks to Windows 10 S's battery savings and more efficient hardware. One thing you won't see on the Surface Laptop: Speaker holes or grills. Microsoft managed to fit the speakers behind the keys, which Panay claims delivers a more enveloping sound. Microsoft says it has also improved the standby time -- so much so that "you could go away on spring break and still have the same battery life when you returned."
Priced about $700 too high (Score:4, Insightful)
Seems like it's priced about $700 too high. About three years ago, I was happy to shell out about $300 for a Windows 8 tablet with Office preinstalled and a bluetooth keyboard. It was just fast enough to run Civ5 in tile mode through Steam.
For dev machines I can build my own laptop (with RAM + SSD) for cheaper than $1K too, and $1K should be mostly graphics cards if it's invested in a desktop. And educational institutions on budgets are already using "disposable" Chromebooks and Android tablets that can be had for a hundred bucks so it seems unlikely Microsoft has a viable product for K-12. So again...what do you get for a $1K Surface?
Targeted at education market (Score:2)
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RTFA. This is NOT their education offering. That's a different animal.
On the sidelines of Windows 10 S and affordable Chromebook-like laptops announcements, Microsoft also announced the newest addition ...
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yea its definitely priced too high. I recently bought an acer switch alpha 12 for 480$ which has twice the ram and ssd space as the base model of this and a non-gimped version of windows. Plus its a 2in1 so it has a touchscreen for a reason
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The cheapest model of which is $599 (retail, but let's compare apples to apples huh?). But since you said "2x the memory", you must have been talking about the core i5 / 8GB model. That one is $699.
So you were only off by ~30% in your price quote.
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1) Start with a solid chassis (multi-core CPU and large LCD) that's a few years old (used).
2) Max out the RAM (new)
3) Replace whatever drive's in there with SSD (new)
4) Load up a Windows OS (from your dev license pool, so free)
I built my main dev laptop (a four-year old Dell Latitude with hardware upgrades) that way for about $750 all in. I love it, and if it falls apart tomorrow, then it will cost me less than a day's work to acquire the same
Re:Priced about $700 too high (Score:4, Informative)
That's called (mildly) upgrading a stock laptop. Don't call that building a laptop. You usually only have to remove a panel or two.
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To be fair, "building" a tower PC is just snapping together lego bricks as well. It's all about your choice of brick.
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If your tower already had a motherboard, CPU, and RAM, how much building are you doing? And towers at least come with standard sized motherboard screw holes - no such thing in laptops.
Re:Priced about $700 too high (Score:5, Funny)
I build my own cars, too, and for half the price of a new one.
1) Start with a solid chassis (strong engine and drivetrain) that's a few years old (used).
2) Put new wheels on.
3) Sweet ground effects.
4) At least 3 bobble heads, depending on how I'm feeling that day.
Soooo much cheaper than the exact same thing new. Didn't even need to go to school to learn how to build cars - I guess it's just a gift.
Re:Priced about $700 too high (Score:5, Funny)
No blower? Cold air intake? Boost controller? NoX? Remap?
Wimp.
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To get all that I just roll down the windows while driving home from the dentist.
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The turbo will spin appreciably faster.
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Yeah swapping laptop parts is just like swapping an engine.
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Really set yourself up on that one. I get your point about it not being worth the money, but you went a little far.
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Yes, I get free Windows OS licenses as part of a wider developer license.
And yes, if you're a decent developer on ANY platform, you shouldn't be paying rack rate for use of the platform. Mature commercial platform providers (whether OS's, DB's, PaaS, etc.) know that developers like me add a shit-ton of value to their ecosystem by writing the apps that orga
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BUILD: construct by putting parts or material together over a period of time.
Parts list:
You seem to not be getting the concept that your process would be better labeled as upgrading, especially when compared to building a PC from a motherboard, case, power supply, RAM , SSD, graphics card, etc.
MacBook Pro, or MacBook Air? (Score:2)
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Re:MacBook Pro, or MacBook Air? (Score:5, Funny)
hmmm 50% faster than a air and faster than a Pro thats 100% faster than an air? Im guessing this performance is measured in m$ programs.
What are those strange holes? (Score:2)
Why is the side covered in weird rectangular holes?
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They weren't courageous enough to remove the USB A ports.
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This is the response to Apple rounded corners.
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No, it adds lightness.
What about other specs? (Score:5, Insightful)
RAM? Discrete graphics? Oh wait, it comes with Windows 10S... the rebranding of RT. Nevermind. It's worthless.
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It can be upgraded to Windows 10 Pro, for free until Dec. 31st, 2017, or paying US$ 50 after that.
huh? (Score:2)
So its a high power laptop that can't run any software that would need high power? A high end Chromebook makes no sense at all. Easy to see why the surface series has less sales than apples accessory division.
Non-starter (Score:5, Insightful)
A $1000 laptop that can only run Windows Store apps? Somebody at MS is getting fired.
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I'm still bitter that they re-branded WinCE.
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A $1000 tablet that can only run App Store apps? Someone at Apple is getting a raise.
Slashdot (Score:2)
..... this post brought to you by Microsoft.
Wow, shill much?
How's this better hardware-wise than a MacBook Pro (Score:5, Insightful)
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A MacBook doesn't need to be connected to the Internet to work, I get 30 days of standby/suspend/sleep time on battery, and MacBook Pros and Airs already are i5 or i7. They say it's faster, but only because of cloud computing: the destroyer of open source. Also, good luck getting any work done without the internet and enjoy having no control over your software and Window$ spyware. There's also no way you'll be able to install Linux on it either. If I have $999 to blow on a laptop, I'll get a System76 or a Thinkpad off of Amazon. Hell, I might just buy a bunch of Raspberry Pi's and put them together.
It looks like MS is playing the "you can centrally manage the machines and only approved MS Store software can be installed so you don't have any security issues..." to school districts. They would presumably always have wireless access so using cloud based programs is not an issue. tI would guess MS will offer substantial "discounts" for volume buys. As for Alcantara, it'll be interesting to see how that stands up over time in a school environment. I'd also love to see teh data backing up the faster than M
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Aye, agreed. The new Microsox _might_ be good but it isn't better than a MacBook Pro. In fact, it isn't even _as_ good as a MacBook Pro. In addition to the technical aspect there is also the fact that the MacBooks last so much longer than Windows machines and require less support. This is repeatedly shown in industry studies. We have MacBook Pros and PowerBooks (older version of MBP) that are over 10 years old and even over 15 years old and still performing their duties perfectly. When the top level users u
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My Asus G50VT is only 9 years old. Works perfectly,even now with Windows 10 on it. I didn't game on it much, so the video card is still 100%.
My Dell E6440 is just shy of 4 years old. Works perfectly, but did get a hard drive replacement last year. Drive failures being essentially random nowadays, this is hard to blame on Windows, Microsoft, or Dell.
Before this, I had a no name laptop that lasted 11 years, damn, but i hacked the power connector back on several times. My ThinkPad X41t lasted me 9 years and is
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cloud computing: the destroyer of open source
lol.
wow (Score:2)
I cant top looking at that fabric covered keyboard and thinking how NASTY that's going to be within a single report writing session
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The fabric covered keyboard on my Surface Pro is years old and not nasty at all. And it's not because of me.
"Not Better" than MBPro (Score:2)
Windows was the primary reason why I jumped ship to OSX/MacOS so I'll stick with that OS, thank you very much.
performance vs battery life (Score:2)
I get the feeling they are testing those two things separately. If you have your computer set to performance and the competition set to battery, naturally your computer will perform better. (for a few hours anyway) And vice-versa. You can't have highest performance AND best battery life at the same time without some incredible hardware, which I doubt this can live up to.
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Well, you can, if you reduce the amount of work the system has to do.
By restricting it to the Windows App Store they've removed all useful work from the system entirely, so it's not a surprise it'll do fuck all very quickly forever.
It's still doing fuck all useful.
Better article from Ars... (Score:4, Insightful)
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Don't worry about the unnecessary cores. Since they didn't mention what specific i7 its safe to assume its one of the many bait and switch dual core i7. When it comes to advertising, what isn't said means much more than what is explicitly stated.
THIS is what hardware has become. (Score:5, Informative)
"The Surface Laptop includes a 13.5-inch PixelSense display..."
No one attaches a 13.5" display to their desktop and boasts about it. I'd sure as hell give up an hour or two of battery life for some actual real estate. Let me guess, that "monster" screen also has 4K capability too, for some pointless marketing reason.
"...a keyboard draped in Alcantara, a smooth cloth-like material.
Obviously a critical "Pro" feature. I always wanted my keyboard to feel like drapery.
"... it can pack in an SSD up to 1TB (that's notably integrated directly onto the motherboard).
Translation: Fuck You consumer. You'll pay factory price for upgrades, and like it, bitch. (Tell me again how this is notably better than Apple's Fuck-You hardware model?)
"You can also expect up to 14.5 hours of battery life..."
Translation: You can expect to get up to 4 hours of Netflix binging.
"Microsoft managed to fit the speakers behind the keys, which Panay claims delivers a more enveloping sound."
Translation: We spent a billion dollars on behind-the-keyboard R&D for the earbud generation.
THIS is what hardware has become these days; a fucking fashion shitshow for hypes sake. Thanks Apple, for starting this trend.
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THIS is what hardware has become these days; a fucking fashion shitshow for hypes sake. Thanks Apple, for starting this trend.
I'm sorry, but I have to beg to differ. SGI and Sun (remember them?) did fashion computers long before Apple did.
Just do a Google image search for "SGI Indigo", "SGI Crimson", "SGI Terzo", "SGI Onyx", "SGI Prism", "SGI Fuel".
Or the Linux Networx LS-X...
Or take a talk down memory lane and check out the Cray-2 [wikipedia.org], which had a waterfall...
Smells (Score:2)
Longer battery life AND better performance AND lighter than a MBP?
Something smells really fishy. Microsoft has pulled sketchy stunts like this before, so only a fool would take this announcement at face value. I'll wait for some actual reviews before I'll form an opinion.
It's using their newly released Windows 10S, so you can only install UWP and select windows store approved win32 apps. This is another massive alarm bell, and it's certainly not fit for "professional" use, no matter what they like to cla
PixelSense and Iris Plus GAWD! (Score:2)
Oh I love the way branding goes these days, as if it wasn't enough to say it has "i5" or "i7" CPUs while omitting they're actually ULV CPUs. But claiming it to be more powerful than an MBP makes me digress, but I'm calling that BS since they started to compare it with a Macbook Air.
But man, that marketing BS with the "PixelSense", "Iris Plus" and deceptive numbers like "3.4 Million pixels". So basically it's not 4k in 2017. It is less than a Dell XPS 4k (2y old, but ok, 15''), it is less than a Chromebook
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i'm wondering if dedicated GPU's in laptops will eventually go the way of the dodo; once eGPU's via thunderbolt 3 gain a bit more traction, it will no longer really make sense to bother with integrated 3d video.
i'd much rather save a few hundred bucks and not have a shitty geforce 'm" card, and instead use a desktop card of my choosing. it's upgrade-able, performance isn't quite as gimped due to heat/power issues, and laptop is lighter and cheaper..
Looking at benchmarks the 960m card in my asus laptop is r
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i'd much rather save a few hundred bucks and not have a shitty geforce 'm" card, and instead use a desktop card of my choosing. it's upgrade-able, performance isn't quite as gimped due to heat/power issues, and laptop is lighter and cheaper..
They've been putting full-on "desktop" GPUs in laptops for some time now. All you have to do is pay for it and invest in a heat shield for your nuts.
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eh, usually (at least what i've seen?) it's a mobile variant of a desktop card (such as the one i cited, 960m)
but they add considerable cost, and i'd presume bulk due to cooling needs.
basically give me a thin, sleek laptop with a proper i7 caliber CPU and whatever onboard intel bullshit it needs for 2d video.
When i want to game i'd hook up an eGPU enclosure/dock. (yes there's a few on the market currently, but they're crazy expensive for what amounts to a pcie ->thunderbolt3 interface and janky as fuck p
Who fucking cares? (Score:2, Interesting)
Here's my takeaway.
They're dragging Windows RT out again? (Score:3)
I know they're trying to compete with the Chromebook, but I thought they learned their lesson with Windows RT -- very few use cases exist for an artificially limited device that can only run Store apps and, essentially, Office.
It's obvious that Azure and cloud services are the way they want to go, but no one wanted the non-Pro Surface. Outside of education, why would anyone want this? Phone is dead, UWP apps exist but certainly aren't the only type of apps people use, and it seems silly to me to artifically limit a device using Windows 10 S.
The ideal endgame for Microsoft is definitely having locked-down devices that are useless without paying subscription fees and consuming Azure services. They're going to be the new IBM and we're all going to be mainframe customers at some point.
Spring Break? (Score:2)
Microsoft says it has also improved the standby time -- so much so that "you could go away on spring break and still have the same battery life when you returned."
Appealing not to people that will actually attend spring break since they hardly have money for gas and beer, rather, to people with fond memories of spring breaks past.
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Touch screens on laptops and desktops are terrible. Plus some people do real work and not just consume content.
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I thought so until I got one at work. Damn, it's useful.
Smear isn't a problem, the glass does a terrific job of not showing it, and when I do see it, I also see glare and reposition anyways.
I bounce between touch and mouse easily - whatever works best at the moment.
So good I bought a Surface Pro for myself. Excellent.
The only annoyance is reaching for non-touch screens...
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I thought so until I got one at work. Damn, it's useful.
Smear isn't a problem, when I do see it, I also see glare and reposition anyways.
"Reposition"?
This word 'work'. I don't think it means what you think it means.
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'work' in this context means 'where i am employed'. I received this laptop at work, that is, as part of my job.
It meant exactly what I intended it to mean. You may want to reset your typo filter level. There was no typo in my sentence.
ps - glare has afflicted nearly every monitor I've used for over 27 years, even the 'non-glare' ones. It happens.
Re: I'm a PC and I have a touchscreen (Score:4, Insightful)
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While I often do slap hands away from my non-touch monitors at work, a well designed screen can make smudges less likely/visible. Plus, your average desktop monitor is more likely to develop a film of dust which makes previous touches more visible, something which is not as common on a laptop which gets a good bit more movement.
Oh how I miss my old Lenovo Carbon Touch X1... and how much I hate the glossy & smudge attracting MacBook Pro I have today.
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simply touch and drag your finger over the spot
which then copy/pastes, or drag/drops something that you didn't want pasted/moved.
Re:I'm a PC and I have a touchscreen (Score:5, Insightful)
I have no problem with a touchscreen on a laptop as long as I'm not forced to use it.
And if it adds any cost to the laptop, I'm likely to pick up the cheaper version without it.
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"I have no problem with a touchscreen on a laptop as long as I'm not forced to use it."
If by "I have no problem with a touchscreen on a laptop as long as I'm not forced to use it." you mean "I have no problem with a touchscreen on a laptop as long as I'm not forced to use touch.", then you have no problem.
Next.
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No, I mean so long as the GUI is set up to work with a keystrokes (best) or mice/touchpads so I don't have to move my arms and poke the screen. Apple and Chromebook touchpads show how much of the touchscreen advantages can be had on the touchpad (pinch to zoom, rotate, swipes, and especially scrolling). If the GUI makes significant compromises to accommodate touch, then I am being "forced to use it".
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Even Windows 10 on my Surface Pro 3 happily works as expected when the keyboard is attached. When I forced it into Tablet Mode, changing it back was trivial.
Windows 10 touch laptops work just fine with keystrokes and non-touch pointing devices in my experience.
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I really tried to drink the Kool Aid and use 8 when it came out. I put up with it for a whole year before giving up and reinstalling 7.
Yes, that's exactly what I mean.
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OS X has Launchpad [apple.com], which is designed to be touch-friendly despite no OS X systems coming with a touch screen. Nobody uses it, so you may not remember it.
Windows does not have a touch-friendly interface unless you only use "modern" apps. They don't adjust the size of the drop-down menus on regular apps when you're in tablet mode - something they could do if they lied to the program about the size of the screen to make room (I assume - I don't do Windows GUI development).
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OS X has Launchpad [apple.com], which is designed to be touch-friendly despite no OS X systems coming with a touch screen. Nobody uses it, so you may not remember it.
Windows does not have a touch-friendly interface unless you only use "modern" apps. They don't adjust the size of the drop-down menus on regular apps when you're in tablet mode - something they could do if they lied to the program about the size of the screen to make room (I assume - I don't do Windows GUI development).
Launchpad is keyboard friendly. Click the icon, start typing the name of the program. After you are 2 or three characters into typing it, it filters the many icons down to the one program you are looking for. It didn't need to take over the whole screen, it works similarly on Windows 10. Click in the corner, start typing, click on the program you were looking for, but windows 10 does take over the screen while you do it.
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I'm not saying it's not keyboard friendly, but it is touch friendly. No matter how friendly it is, I don't think anyone uses it.
I didn't realize it had search filtering - kind of odd that it's a completely separate interface to Spotlight.
Click in the corner, start typing, click on the program you were looking for, but windows 10 does take over the screen while you do it.
Windows 10 only takes over the whole screen in tablet mode or if you manually set the start menu that large. It's Windows 8 that always takes over the whole screen.
Re: I'm a PC and I have a touchscreen (Score:2)
Speak for yourself with regard to Lauchpad. I use it constantly for launching apps (mostly different utilities) not on my dock. I don't want to overload my Dock with tons of icons I can barely see. Three finger to launch Launchpad, start typing name of app, hit Return once the correct app is selected. I find that quicker that Spotlight or going to the Application folder.
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Nobody statistically speaking - there are outliers - good job on that. If hands are on the keyboard, Cmd+Space is quicker than a three-finger swipe. I don't know if that was a default shortcut or one that I set, but it's quick.
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To me, that's not as easy as keeping my hands on the keyboard and pressing CMD+Space to open Spotlight to launch apps. Going back and forth between keyboard and mouse that often is a productivity killer.
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I'm a communicable disease. Please keep using touchscreens!
That's your big reason not to use touch screens? You don't think keyboards face a similar but noticeably worse situation with respect to this?
Even by slashdot standards that's pretty stupid.
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It's never been a consideration for me, but now that you mention it, this laptop appears to be covered in fur. I imagine that will pick up some general yuckies over time.
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"Using your fingers to touch a screen instead of interacting with a mouse is like replacing a scalpel with a fucking kitchen knife."
"Touch screens work great for phones."
So you're telling me that the smaller the screen, the better fingers work. No, actually, you're telling me that smaller screens need touch interfaces because they are on devices that have no other surface or input device. Not about the small screen, tiny little UI elements, or fat fingers.
And you're telling me that when my laptop is in ful
It runs Windows 10s (Score:5, Funny)
It's freaky when they even copy the number of an apple. However I'm going to wait for the Next edition, dubbed NE1, which I hear will be labeled as
10S NE 1
Re:It runs Windows 10s (Score:4, Insightful)
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When this iteration of Metro fails it will be renamed again taking naming DNA from the previous two versions. Windows 10 RTS. The name is an acronym for its intended life cycle, first you buy it thinking it'll run your existing Windows software and then Return To Store for a refund.
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Wonder if Windows Server 2016 would work on that thing.
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Are there any capacitive touch matte screens? No.
I hate glare, but you have to choose between contrast and no glare. You can get rid of glare by adjusting where you place the screen. You can't get that level of contrast with a matte screen.
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Are there any capacitive touch matte screens? No.
Who wants capacitive touch in a laptop?
I hate glare, but you have to choose between contrast and no glare. You can get rid of glare by adjusting where you place the screen.
ie. You have to use it in the dark.
No, thanks. I bought _one_ laptop with a shiny screen. Never again. My list of specs now starts with "matte screen" and goes from there.
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Who wants capacitive touch in a laptop?
Not me personally unless it converts to a tablet.
You have to use it in the dark.
No - you just have to use it at an oblique angle to any non-diffuse light. It's a choice - nobody's saying you have to go with it. But matte screens, by diffusing direct light, prevent deep blacks altogether. Just look at a matte screen when it's off - not black, just a medium grey. By definition, they diffuse light from every angle.
tl;dr I wouldn't buy a glossy laptop screen, but they still have a purpose.
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Angry AC doesn't like it when his BS gets smacked down by logic
You talk as if we've never seen a matte screen before.
Clues:
a) The surface of the screen doesn't alter the underlying electronics.
b) Contrast doesn't matter a hoot if 90% of the light coming from the screen is a reflection of the room.
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Yeah I've not figured out the hype on that stuff. I checked one out at the microsoft store and couldn't figure out what made it $30 better than the other keyboards.
Might as well have it sold by Ricardo Montalban - "And this keyboard is made with rich corinthian leather!"
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Re:wtf (Score:4, Informative)
Re: wtf (Score:2)
Well, at least you should give them credit for finally getting the direction where the wind is blowing.
Dell got bumper sales once Michael Dell got back into business and wrestled the helm from MBA flowchart warriors and people who were "product managing" company's products to death.
See: XPS13 - the most sold high-end PC laptop. And they got there in just 2 years.
Hey, even Chinese are leapfrogging old brands now: See Chuwi Surbook 13 - the name is ofcourse ridiculous, but see THEY GOT IT TOO. This is provabl
Re: wtf (Score:2)
Sorry guy, mustook the name. It's called "Lapbook." Chuwi's take on XPS class devices is this thing https://liliputing.com/2017/04... [liliputing.com]
Re:wtf (Score:5, Insightful)
Gets worse... not only is it underspec'd, but there's no info on durability (or more importantly, even the potential thereof).
I've got a 4-year-old MacBook Pro that still performs just as well as most latest/greatest mid/high-end laptops, and I abuse the crap out of it. I wiped the disk and reinstalled exactly once - when I upgraded the disk from platter to SSD. Nothing (and I mean *nothing*) has ever given me cause to doubt the quality of the product, let alone its durability. Odds are nearly perfect I will keep it another year (maybe two?) before refreshing it. I also know that my particular scenario is quite typical among folks who own similar MacBook Pro laptops.
So... can Microsoft credibly make the same claim?
(There's also that stupid Spyware-by-default called Windows 10 on these new Surface laptops, but we won't go into that at the moment.)
Re:wtf (Score:4, Insightful)
It's even worse than that, they say it runs W10 "S" which is locked down to only** be able to install software from the MS app store.
** With MS's security history, anyone want to take bets on how long before this is blown wide open so you can install normal programs from anywhere?
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So... can Microsoft credibly make the same claim?
I'll answer that for you: no, because no one actually has it yet, let alone has had it for 4+ years.
P.S., your Macbook is about to catch on fire and burn, within the next several weeks. Can you credibly claim otherwise?
Re:wtf (Score:5, Insightful)
This infomercial is a frickin joke. 999$ USD for an entry level Core i5 laptop with Windows on it is an insult to our intelligence.
Only if you compare it to the end-of-isle specials at Walmart.
How much does a 14mm thick laptop with 14 hour battery life and a bit of style cost at Walmart? Oh, that's right, they don't even sell them!
This is way cheaper than a similar size Macbook and better specced. Those Macbooks sell by the million. You can complain about a lot of things but the price isn't one of them. Not really.
(and anybody who'd buy something with an Alcantara keyboard certainly won't be complaining about that)
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But the real question is will it run Linux?
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Mildly interested if I could replace the OS with something that works, not M$ crap.
Comparable laptop cost: $499
Upcharge for Microsoft logo: $500
Why exactly would you want to pay money to have a Microsoft logo on your linux box?
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My 17" MacPook Pro (not using it often right now) running 10.6.x also had uptimes around 100 days and more. I basically restart a laptop only when an OS upgrade demands a restart.
At my current customer I have to use a Windows 10 laptop. I hate it.