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Valve Shows How Steam Controller Works In Real Life

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  • Real Life? (Score:5, Funny)

    by dunng808 (448849) <osp @ a l o h a.com> on Friday October 11, 2013 @10:03PM (#45106475) Homepage Journal

    A new MMORPG?

    • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 12, 2013 @01:22AM (#45107087)

      I got in the beta and right now it's not worth playing. The classes are so unbalanced it isn't even funny and skills take ages to level up. Although there are a large number of quests, it gets very repetitive and makes "bring me ten rat tails" sound like fun. That reminds me: anyone knows where you're supposed to drop the rat tails? I've tried several vendors but they always say they'll call the guards if I don't get out, is this a bug?
      On the bright side the graphics are pretty good, although not very realistic since there's hardly any brown. Hadn't they blown all the budget on graphics, heroin and advertising the game might've lived up to all the hype, but as it is I give it a 4/10. Back to WoW I guess.

  • by Khyber (864651) <techkitsune@gmail.com> on Friday October 11, 2013 @10:10PM (#45106515) Homepage Journal

    Might take just a tiny bit of getting used to, but this could actually work.

    I'm actually impressed.

    • Ditto. Looks good for the couch when you are playing a leisurely game. However, mouse and kb will will be tops for getting rid of the pent up must kill something moments.
      • by Smauler (915644)

        Looks good for the couch when you are playing a leisurely game.

        This is damning with faint praise. This looks nowhere near as good as a mouse. An example : point click timed flash games. When someone gets even close to what an ok person can do with these with another interface, I'll talk.

        Also, I would go insane playing Civilization with this... there were 3 movements to get the pointer from one side to the screen to the other. Admittedly, I have my mouse pretty sensitive (less than a centimetre, side

        • by Pseudonym (62607)

          Also, their Portal 2 demo was not impressive. I'm not good, but I'm much quicker looking and better than that demo (not boasting, at all - I'm only average).

          Hell, I'm quicker than that on the XBox controller.

          I doubt that demonstrating speed was the point of the demo; any quicker than that and you'd probably not be able to keep up with what the player was doing with the controller.

      • by AC-x (735297)

        Looks around as good as using a laptop track pad for FPS games, so usable but not perfect. Of course when I'm on the couch I just use a wireless keyboard and mouse so that suites both causal gaming and "serious" FPS matches :)

    • by JMJimmy (2036122)

      Your right thumb is going to get insanely sore doing that swiping motion to look around quickly. Button presses + motion will be hard/impossible, as will button combos and I guarantee the underside/LS/RS buttons will get clicked accidentally or you'll end up hurting your hands trying not to press them.

      • by Brulath (2765381)

        It's hackable, so you could probably implement the mouse like a trackball [wikipedia.org]; a flicking action could simulate the ball rolling/moving the cursor and touching the pad again would stop the cursor.

        There are a lot of possibilities for modifying the control scheme in each game to increase accuracy whilst reducing fatigue - there's no reason you must implement it as 1:1 movement for all games.

        • by Khyber (864651)

          From what I saw in the portal 2 demo there appeared to be some sort of 'swipe inertial motion' going on.

        • by fikx (704101)
          Along those lines, I've wondered for a long time as generation after generation of console come out: why doesn't any game controllers use a trackball? is there durability concerns? other concerns? Anyone know why they skip this?
          I've been a big trackball fan since my early days on computers. One of the nice things about them (besides just a preference for that kind of control) is it takes less desk space...desk rodents claim too much of my needed clutter space. Ever since the realization that game pads/cont
      • by donaldm (919619)

        Your right thumb is going to get insanely sore doing that swiping motion to look around quickly. Button presses + motion will be hard/impossible, as will button combos and I guarantee the underside/LS/RS buttons will get clicked accidentally or you'll end up hurting your hands trying not to press them.

        Hmm that is what I thought to. On my laptop I rarely use the track pad since my fingers start to get quite sensitive due to them sliding on the smooth surface and it does not take long before they start to hurt, this is one of the reasons I actually turn my track pad off and just use a mouse. I have found that controllers with joysticks and buttons are much more comfortable and I can play for hours at a time without my hands hurting.

      • Your right thumb is going to get insanely sore doing that swiping motion to look around quickly. Button presses + motion will be hard/impossible, as will button combos and I guarantee the underside/LS/RS buttons will get clicked accidentally or you'll end up hurting your hands trying not to press them.

        You saw that specifically addressed in "Papers Please" where they had both pads acting as mouse so you had mouse swipes with both thumbs. That was the coolest thing to me as it is more natural than a mouse! And if the "click" is a trigger, I do not see the problem.

        • by drsquare (530038)

          So if you're using both pads to move the mouse, what exactly do you do for WASD? There are only six buttons accessible whilst using the pad, and you'll need them for shit like jump, crouch, reload, shoot, alt-fire, weapon switch etc.

          Clicking the pad will ruin your accuracy.

      • by Smauler (915644)

        I also worry about the durability of the pad. I really hope they've put it through the paces.

    • by PopeRatzo (965947)

      I'm watching it with great interest, but I was less impressed. The games they were playing were all older games, and I kept thinking how much better it would have been with a keyboard and mouse.

      But if games are designed with the new controllers in mind, it could be quite good.

      However, I'm kind of opposed to game controllers on principle. If I was a teenager, I might not have this issue, but I can't see owning a device just for controlling games, when I can have such fine control with a mouse and keyboard

      • by Desler (1608317)

        The games they were playing were all older games

        Portal 2 and Civ 5 are only around 3 years old.

      • by artor3 (1344997)

        What does the age of the game have to do with anything? Seriously, I can't even imagine what you might be getting at.

        As for the controller, I think it could be great for some games. Total War, for example, could be fantastic with a big screen and a comfy couch. For games that require fine precision (e.g. Starcraft, Dota 2) , nothing stops you from using a keyboard and mouse.

        • by PopeRatzo (965947)

          Total War, for example, could be fantastic with a big screen and a comfy couch.

          I have a big screen and a comfy chair in which I play my games, and they are not in the living room where my wife would have to walk past me and see me in my gape-jawed gaming glory as I bound about simulated Steelport in nothing but flip-flops and an Uncle Sam hat.

          Now, I guess someone who is wider than me would need a couch to sit on for gaming, but I can still fit in a chair, thanks.

      • What consoles have done to gaming? Please. Also controllers are better for a wide range of games. Any racing game is shit with mouse and keyboard, Same for most flying games.
        • Console producers slap a computer together, mass-produce it and sell it under a price tag. With this they can corner a series of games exclusively for that console alone, so if you want to play a certain game, you'll have to buy the console. And if you just happen to own a console/PC where the game was not originally designed to play on, you'll probably end up with a buggy game. But the biggest issue is that most console games treat their player as if they couldn't handle the concept of pushing a button. Y
          • And thats how its been on PC for decades. You couldnt get PC games on consoles (exclusives). And PC games arent generic? How many FPS games came out after Doom. Did you forget basically the whole 90s where 90% of PC games were basic FPS and RTS clones of each other.
        • by PopeRatzo (965947)

          What consoles have done to gaming?

          Quick-time events, third-person perspective, horrible PC ports, "exclusives", "Press X to kill everything on the screen", and I could go on but you're probably getting the idea.

          Consoles have also suppressed hardware advancement for gaming. Without consoles, there would have been 3D headsets five years ago.

          • Yeah, so there are shitty console games out there. I agree. I've just bought a PS3 because they're cheap and some of what I've seen has really disappointed me: boring formulaic stuff. On the other hand, I'm really enjoying Journey, Unfinished Swan, Little Big Planet, and Gran Turismo. I'm more in two minds about Drake's Deception, which came with the console: I don't like the control scheme with the game pad. Aiming is painfully hard and it's obvious that the enemies' behavior is designed with this in mind

          • Except all of those are idiotic points. Third person perspectives are great for a large number of games and have been around on PC games forever. Do you even game? Exclusives have been around forever. Hell 20 years ago most games on PC were never ported to consoles. You can then say PCs started the whole exclusive bullshit. Not to mention horrendous DRM such as online only for single player games. We can thank PCs for that as well. And my favorite of all, half finished Betas being sold as full products. T
          • BTW you never said how any racing or flying game would be made better by a keyboard and mouse.Since you think controllers are useless.
      • by houstonbofh (602064) on Saturday October 12, 2013 @12:50AM (#45106973)
        I think the entire point was to show how good it was with existing games not specifically written for it. (Since that will be the majority of the games out there on the release day.)
      • However, I'm kind of opposed to game controllers on principle. If I was a teenager, I might not have this issue, but I can't see owning a device just for controlling games, when I can have such fine control with a mouse and keyboard (which is already on my desk). I have no such compunction about buying a $250 video card that is only really necessary for the games I play, but I never said I was consistent.

        It really depends on the game... some games are designed for a controller input, and the keyboard/mouse, while they exist, feel like a tack-on. I have a USB Xbox 360 controller: it works perfectly out of the box, even on Linux, and probably half of the games in my library work better with it than they do with keyboard/mouse. General rule of thumb: anything that's got arcade type action will work better with a controller. Some of the games in my library will actually allow multiplayer action on a single syst

        • Some of the games in my library will actually allow multiplayer action on a single system by connecting a controller

          When I have reminded people of that, their replies have been to the effect: "But how many people can fit around one desktop PC monitor?" and "Most people prefer to play in pickup groups with strangers because they can't even schedule online matches with their friends, let alone fly them in for an in-person match."

    • LOL Really? Did you see the CS section? ~2 seconds to position the crosshair on a guy's head... imagine compensating for recoil during an AK burst with that thing, haha :D

      As with any other console controller: Completely fucking useless.

    • For some games. On strategy games, we usually use 20+ keybord shortcuts AND the mouse. There's no way to map that many buttons to that gamepad, and that IS an issue.

  • Wow. (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward

    I don't really know what to say.

    The fact that you have to lift up your thumb and reposition it is horrible. That alone will pretty much mean that you're at a severe disadvantage if you're in a multiplayer game trying to verse someone with a mouse and keyboard, because every time you hit the edge of the control pad you have to momentarily pause to lift up your finger and place it down in the centre again.

    If they had some sort of inertia system (similar to how Apple scrolls stuff), then maybe that wouldn't be

    • by CastrTroy (595695)
      Granted, those who use a mouse still reach the edge of the mouse pad, and end up having to pick up the mouse and reposition it as well. Some mice are notoriously hard to actually pick up off the table, with slanted sides that don't let you get a good grip. Personally, I prefer using trackballs. They do have the inertial system by virtue of their design, and you never have to reposition them. Trackballs that let you use your fingers are the best, because you have multiple digits that control the same surface
      • by ballpoint (192660)

        My trackman marble fx wireless just broke down. It was already a meager replacement for the seminal wired original fx, and now I'm stuck as new good finger controlled trackballs are nowhere to be found. It's a sad state of affairs.

        Any suggestions ?

        • Kensington Slimblade, it's quite good. Not nearly the same form factor as an FX, but finger-controlled and very flickable.

        • Kensington still makes finger-controlled trackballs. I use an ExpertMouse myself; they also have one called the Blade.

          Why they call a trackball a mouse, I've never been able to figure out.

          • Kensington

            Perhaps I've been watching too many of Ashen's videos, but Ken Sing Ton just sounds Chinese to me.

            Why they call a trackball a mouse, I've never been able to figure out.

            They've been doing so since the Apple IIGS days. Perhaps the rationale is 1. that it replaces a mouse, and 2. not to interfere with Atari's Trak-Ball trademark.

        • by drinkypoo (153816)

          If you can't fix it (as others have suggested) then troll eBay for good used or NOS. I find my trackman wheels at yard sales and then wind up replacing microswitches if they even detect.

    • Re:Wow. (Score:5, Informative)

      by gumpish (682245) on Friday October 11, 2013 @10:40PM (#45106617) Journal

      If they had some sort of inertia system...

      Did you not see this exact mechanic in the Civ 5 demo?

      Take another look [youtube.com] at the "swipe" on the right thumbpad at 2:23 and again at 2:27. It seems to work like a smartphone. If you lift your thumb while it's moving then the cursor has inertia.

      • by JMJimmy (2036122)

        That's built into the game, not the controller which means you'll be at the mercy of the developer as to whether or not the controller will be of any use

        • by gumpish (682245)

          Even if your sourceless assertion is accurate, there's nothing stopping Valve from implementing that functionality in the driver.

          • by Holi (250190)

            Which it obviously is as they specifically mentioned that the 1 to 1 control was one way you could configure the controller.

        • by Jartan (219704)

          It's still far better than a gamepad.

        • its not built into the game, and you can see him doing it earlier in the portal demo.
        • by AC-x (735297)

          That's built into the game

          Surely it can't be or it would completely fuck up anyone using a mouse? (The pad is emulating a trackpad controlled mouse pointer, so as far as the game knows you're using a regular mouse/trackpad)

          • by JMJimmy (2036122)

            Exactly my point - the game accepts mouse input and performs the action it wants based on that input. If the game wants mouse acceleration it'll add it regardless of any controller settings. You can add them on the driver level as well but if you set the driver to have mouse acceleration games with it will double the effect since they expect standard mouse input. Sure some devs may account for this but the entire point of controllers/consoles is standardization so that the complexity is reduced. If they'

    • by Anonymous Coward

      Did you get to 36 seconds into the video and have an aneurysm? You can choose freely between 1:1 and relative input.

  • by Wrath0fb0b (302444) on Friday October 11, 2013 @10:21PM (#45106551)

    Borderline NSFW [cad-comic.com]

  • Very nice! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by RyanFenton (230700) on Friday October 11, 2013 @10:22PM (#45106557)

    A very good video showing movement mapped to real gameplay.

    The obvious: It's not QUITE as 1-1 as a mouse with 4 inches of control surface.

    But I'd still rate it a bit higher than a trackball, which is high praise from me, since I really enjoy using trackball inputs when a mouse isn't convenient.

    This is a real accomplishment in input innovation - even without considering the dynamic haptic feedback portion of the design.

    I'd be amazed, if this works as advertised, if Sony and Microsoft don't push for a copycat controller very rapidly - especially given the PC-like nature of their new consoles.

    The remaining challenge: How would it fare against a 360/Dualshock controller in specialized console games. From what I've heard from developers so far:

    Super Meat Boy dev trys out the Steam controller [polygon.com]

    It sounds like it's a good compromise overall - but it's still got some hurdles to clear to being "the best" - but man, it sounds promising so far!

    Ryan Fenton

    • by Anonymous Coward

      This is a real accomplishment in input innovation - even without considering the dynamic haptic feedback portion of the design.

      Not really. I had one of these [amazon.com] for my Super Nintendo back in the day. Sure, this controller might be more sensitive, but the idea itself isn't new.

    • by drinkypoo (153816)

      I'm still using a trackman wheel. They're getting harder to come by (they don't live forever) and I am having to replace microswitches... I find I'm more accurate with it than I am with a mouse, and I can play more rounds before fatigue sets in.

      On the other hand, or on the other both hands? I am finding I can spend a truly unfortunate number of hours playing GTAV on the 360. I have really big hands, so this is a big deal for me...

  • I haven't owned a console since the NES. I've always been a PC gamer. I rarely play games with a anything other than a keyboard and mouse. I'm honestly impressed at what they have come up with. I'll seriously consider buying a steam machine once they are readily available. I think Valve has done a great job so far. It will be very interesting to see if it is successful and see what the competition does in response.
  • So for several of the games, the left trackpad seems to be equivalent to a non-centering joystick or Turbo Touch 360 (touch-sensitive gamepad for NES/Genesis, etc).
    The non-centering joystick of the Atari 5200 got really bad reviews, and the Turbo Touch 360 was rated the 9th worst video game controller of all time by IGN.

    • by Z80a (971949)
      I think they're trying to solve it by making the trackpad concave and with a plastic ring on the middle to tell you where the middle is. But must see how effective it is at it.
      • by tepples (727027)
        I have a Turbo Touch for NES, and its Control Pad has ridges and raised dots to tell the thumb where the sensors are. I don't see how this differs.
    • by vux984 (928602)

      The non-centering joystick of the Atari 5200 got really bad reviews, and the Turbo Touch 360 was rated the 9th worst video game controller of all time by IGN.

      What is a mouse on a mousepad in an FPS shooter with mouse look if its not a "non-centering joystick"?

      I don't know if the steam controller is going to be any good in practice, but for on the couch gaming -- I'm willing to give it a shot. I already prefer to play quite a few styles of games with a controller - Platformers, shmups, and stuff like defense

  • They need show then that can be mouse only and mouse + keyboard hot keys.

  • Is there any real evidence that steamOS will actually be truly open?

    I know they advertised that the OS will be open source to some degree, but I haven't been able to dig up the details.

    What worries me is this: if I can't sideload apps, install separate app stores, or root the system, then it's not truly open.

    I'm worried steamOS will be as locked down to Steam as iOS is locked down to the iOS app store.

    Is there evidence that steamOS will be more open than that?

    • Re: (Score:1, Informative)

      Uh ... Steam = DRM = store for secure distribution. Do you need a dunce cap or a bonk on the head?

      Or are you shooting for "Dumb post of the year" or what?
      • by Kethinov (636034)

        You replied with a post that consisted of:

        1. An insult.

        2. No actual answer to my question about sideloading.

        And someone modded you up.

        Yep, that's Slashdot.

    • Er, you are aware that SteamOS is essentially nothing but a custom desktop Linux distribution with some specialized drivers and applications to facilitate the Steam storefront and peripheral hardware, right? That should be all you need to know to realize how open it's going to be.

      They welcome anyone to install it on their own home desktops. Of course you'll be able to sideload whatever you want onto it or pick at the guts. Just don't expect the storefront client to be open source.

      • by Kethinov (636034)

        Do you have hard information that SteamOS will permit sideloading or are you just assuming it will based on their vague marketing rhetoric?

    • Is there any real evidence that steamOS will actually be truly open?

      I know they advertised that the OS will be open source to some degree, but I haven't been able to dig up the details.

      It is the steam client on Linux. Essentually, install Ubuntu, and the Steam client. Then set up your game user so the shell is the steam client, not Unity, and have it default to big picture mode. Now you have a steam box. And I am sure you can go the other way as well. The core is Linux, and the beta is the Ubuntu userbase.

      • by Kethinov (636034)

        Do you have hard evidence that stock Ubuntu with Steam installed is architecturally identical to SteamOS and that SteamOS will permit sideloading the same Ubuntu does, or are you just guessing based on their vague marketing pages?

        • It is based on comments made durring the beta and development of the linux client. (This is what the steam box will be) Add that to the marketing comments, and factor in the "businesses don't like extra work" concept and this is what you get. Why bother to totally lock down the OS? It would not be locked down for most of your users, (Linux Mac Windows) so what do you gain? Verses keeping it open, which means less work and more hackers finding cool things to do with it. It was a Half Life TC that reall
          • by Kethinov (636034)

            I hope you're right, but what you wrote is still just speculation. Not proof.

            What worries me is that when this thing goes live, a whole lot of people who just assumed it's going to be a totally open platform are going to be disappointed when Steam imitates every other console gaming platform by disabling sideloading or making it prohibitively difficult for ordinary users.

  • Its clear from the video its still noticeably not as quick to accurately place shots as with a mouse (and keyboard).
    If it aint broke dont fix it. I'm gonna stick with a mouse and keyboard thanks.

    • Nothing but a keyboard or mouse will product the same results of a keyboard and mouse to its fullest extent. You're not the target market. This is designed to make living room play easier for those who wish to partake in such an endeavor. If you're already sitting at your desk, you're probably better off using the keyboard and mouse.

  • by Jartan (219704) on Friday October 11, 2013 @11:11PM (#45106715)

    I've seen a lot of comments naming specific scenarios where a gamepad is better. That's completely pointless. If a gamepad is better in that scenario then you'll just use a gamepad.

    The entire purpose of this thing is mouse/kb games.

    • by eyenot (102141)

      I want to get one just for that reason. Sitting down and spending hours tweaking the settings of an XPadder setup to get a controller working "hrnnn kinda sorta" with a game meant for mouse and keyboard rarely pays off the way it feels like it should.

      A controller like this takes care of all that.

    • by Undead Waffle (1447615) on Saturday October 12, 2013 @12:04AM (#45106873)
      Basically. The point is Valve came up with Steam Box but all of their own titles are designed for mouse and keyboard, so they needed an appropriate controller or there wouldn't be anything to play. I was wondering how they were going to solve this problem and this controller design was a brilliant solution.
      • by RyoShin (610051)

        I think it's more than that: By making a controller that can mimic keyboard/mouse to some acceptable degree of accuracy for all but the hardcore/tournament players, it takes the onus off of the developers to code/test for a regular controller, meaning it becomes much easier to design their game for a Steam Machine, improving the chances they'll do so over a Windows-only version.

    • This is exactly it. It's designed to be as comfortable and easy to hold as a gamepad, but get as close to mouse + keyboard precision. There are Linux drivers for the PS3 Six-axis or Dual Shock 3 [ubuntu.com] and XBOX 360 controllers [ubuntu.com] (which should work just fine in Steam OS).

      People criticizing this for *not* copying the tried and true gamepad design (two analog sticks, 1 d-pad, 4 side buttons, etc) are like people critiquing a pickup truck or sports car for not seating 4 and having enough room for all their groceri

  • I can't stand console controllers, but this one actually seems to afford the user some resemblance of speed and accuracy. While I'd still infinitely prefer a keyboard and mouse the Steam controller has put me in a favourable disposition regarding buying my first console, a Steam Box... As opposed to: "A console? Over my dead body!"
  • Looks like it'll cause a lot of blisters.

  • It's nice that Valve is bringing a, what seems to be, good controller for point and click and turn based games. But I still believe that if you're a PC gamer you'll have to couple it with a Xbox/PS4 controller(both supposed work on PCs out of the box) and a m+kb set as well.
    Portal, unless you're doing a speed-run, you don't need to rush while still being accurate. So any controller could deliver a good experience. The counter-strike demo wasn't a real match, so it's hard to make a judgement. Don't get me w
    • by Patch86 (1465427)

      It should be pointed out that as the Steam Box is just a regular Linux distro on regular PC hardware, you will not be limited to using just this controller. You'll be able to use anything available on the market for PCs, including- wireless keyboard & mouse, wireless handheld keyboard & trackpad, Sony Dual Shock controllers, Dual Shock rip off imitation controllers, Xbox controllers, Xbox ripoff imitation controllers, joysticks...

      This controller is just because Valve know that 99% of their Steam cat

  • ...was I spent the next few hours playing and replaying Papers Please.

  • Anyone even moderately serious about FPS gaming was probably facepalming pretty bad in the Counterstrike part of the video, where after getting the crosshair roughly NEAR the target, the player had to make a second adjustment that took maybe half a second in order to actually get the target in the crosshairs and hit it. That's half a second too much. What was the benefit this controller added over the existing PS3/360 gamepads again?

    • I'd actually pay good money for the left hand-half of this so I could use it like a thumbstick and have variable movement direction / speed input instead of just four discrete keys like the usual WASD config.

      Being able to sneak slowly in juuuust the right direction in Deus Ex or Splinter Cell, or steer more naturally in World of Tanks would be great. I'm sick of only having the choice of four directions, and either not moving or going full speed.

      You'd also get the ability to do away with dedicated walk and

    • by ledow (319597)

      I see people do that with mice still, because they don't know to adjust the sensitivity.

      I reckon if you were to change that, you could get it nearer to a mouse without losing much of the slow-pinpoint at the other end.

      And, let's be honest, like the Wii, this is NOT aimed at the hardcore professional gamer. For pissing about on TF2 from the sofa, that thing seems pretty good.

  • by umafuckit (2980809) on Saturday October 12, 2013 @10:42AM (#45108383)

    I'm encouraged by what I'm seeing here. I just bought a PS3 now that they're nice and cheap and boy was I disappointed by how the controller functions in FPS games. Previously I've played shooters on a PC and a Wii with Wiimote as a pointer (Resident Evil). The PS3 controller is terrible in comparison in such games. It's fine for racers and platformers, though. Looking at videos on Youtube I've come to the conclusion that even with a lot of practice one would never be as fast on a PS3 controller as with a K&M.

    The PS3 (or XBox) analog sticks define direction and speed of the camera in an FPS game. However, what you want is the absolute position of the camera (since you're aiming). A mouse gives you this, which is why it's such a great input method. A track-pad also does this pretty well, as the concept is the same. If they can sort out the details, such as speed and resolution of pointing, this could be a very nice controller indeed.

    • Looking at videos on Youtube I've come to the conclusion that even with a lot of practice one would never be as fast on a PS3 controller as with a K&M.

      You will want to Practice more. PC Gamers do tend to be ham-fisted by my standards and haven't really developed their finger dexterity in ways that work well with a Dual Shock.

      Still, if the game supports it, plug in a USB mouse and use it for aiming, but use the dual shock for moving. That works VERY well.

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