USB NeXT Keyboard With an Arduino Micro 115
coop0030 writes "Ladyada and pt had an old NeXT keyboard with a strong desire to get it running on a modern computer. These keyboards are durable, super clicky, and very satisfying to use! However, they are very old designs, specifically made for NeXT hardware: pre PS/2 and definitely pre-USB. That means you can't just plug the keyboard into a PS/2 port (even though it looks similar). There is no existing adapters for sale, and no code out there for getting these working, so we spent a few days and with a little research we got it working perfectly using an Arduino Micro as the go between."
Depends on the ADB/non-ADB Bus (Score:2)
For ADB NeXTs (i.e., Turbo 33/color workstations) - wouldn't an ADB to USB adaptor work?
Re:Depends on the ADB/non-ADB Bus (Score:4, Interesting)
Yep.
I've got a NeXT ADB keyboard, and a Griffin iMate. Works just fine.
This thing doesn't look like it's ADB, though.
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Submitter screwed up the summary, article says pre-ADB and pre-USB and non-PS/2.
ADB (Score:1)
Couldn't you just use an ADB to USB adapter? Guess that would be less amusing than reverse engineering the standard.
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ADB has its innards extremely well documented by apple in the IIGS Hardware reference (page 121)
http://www.scribd.com/doc/39044132/Apple-IIgs-Hardware-Reference [scribd.com]
It never changed, and ADB was used by other companies such as NeXT, Sun and a few others, this is simply a case of doing a bunch of work cause they didnt know what to google for
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Except that Apple Desktop Bus documentation won't be of much, if any, use decoding the NeXT keyboard bus.
Since they're not related in the least.
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yea totally not related, besides almost all the machines used it
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Submitter screwed up the summary, article says pre-ADB and pre-USB and non-PS/2. So not related.
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oh well, if the article says (nevermind ADB predates next by 2 years, and the first 2 models of next computers use ADB, laday ada has it covered)
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Nitpicky. ADB (introduced with the Apple IIGS, in late 1986) predates the NeXT Computer by ~2 years (NeXT Computer was introduced in 1988).
NeXT (the company), predates ADB, as the company was founded in 1985.
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Re:ADB (Score:5, Informative)
Not all NeXT keyboards talked ADB, but rather some proprietary NeXT protocol.
The commercial USB-to-ADB adapters, such as the Belkin iMate are not that easy to come by.
The best option might just be to use a small microcontroller board and load it up with custom firmware.
Most keyboard hackers use the Teensy [pjrc.com] instead of an Arduino, but the boards have more similarities than differences.
You can find open source ADB adapter firmware made for the Teensy over on the Geekhack.org [geekhack.org] forum. It was made by a guy with the handle "Hasu".
So it seems there's hope... (Score:4, Interesting)
... that I may, someday, be able to find a use for that old 3-button DEC hockey puck mouse I have down in the basement. Cool.
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Over and over?
Not hard.... (Score:1)
If a Next keyboard is the same as an AT PC keyboard, this is a trivial hack; you can do it with a PC LPT port (it's a single bit TTL signal that just needs a bit of waggling).
Much harder now there are no simple I/O ports on a PC.
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its not like an AT keyboard, its ADB which is a sinlge wire bit cell timed serial protocol that allows daisy chaining of devices, but thanks for playing
Modern keyboard are like typing on liver. (Score:4, Informative)
You can also pick them up on 2nd hand on eBay from these resellers: http://www.clickykeyboards.com/ [clickykeyboards.com]
When I buy a laptop they're all equal EXCEPT FOR THE KEYBOARDS. Some are better than others, but none compare to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_M_keyboard [wikipedia.org] Know people who type whole novels on their iPhone, but is it really the best way to do it?
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I agree, as I type from my 92 model M... On to laptops, I was surprised that the dell work gave me actually has a almost acceptable keyboard, ok sure its still like sticking your fingers into dough, but they actually have a decent travel and a nice solid base to thunk down on... unlike most laptops where its like typing on rubber attached to a thin plank of balsa wood only being held on its ends bouncing around
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Me too, but my colleagues and others hate when I type s loudly like a machine gun -- http://aqfl.net/node/5825 [aqfl.net] ... :(
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Do you really want a portable computer, where the keyboard alone weighs about two kg and is five cm thick?
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Dear Apple, Bring back the NeXT Keyboard (Score:2)
When things lasted (Score:5, Insightful)
Back in the 90s, a company called Northgate Computer Systems, based out of Minnesota, ranked right up there in terms of marketshare, etc as Dell, HP, etc. They had several government contracts which were exceptionally lucrative. They also made keyboards that everyone at the time lusted for because they were super-reliable, very comfortable to use, and quiet despite the snappiness of the keys. You simply couldn't find a better keyboard. Everything was looking great for them, until senior management made a series of horrible and totally avoidable blunders and within a year the company tanked. The one thing to survive the company's demise was their patents on keyboards -- bought out by a company called Avant Stellar (if memory serves). They charge a fortune for their keyboards, and they aren't as reliable as those old ones are.
I can understand why these guys decided to hack together a microcontroller assembly to get it working on modern hardware: human interface equipment back in that day and age was built to last forever. It could even survive contact with 5 year olds, as my keyboard frequently crashed onto concrete floors, was pissed on by animals, and crushed by falling monitors (remember: Back in the day, a 19" monitor weighed a good 50 pounds). Things that would kill today's keyboards dead, it simply brushed off as a non-event.
I wish things were built like that today, rather than this planned obsolesence bullsh*t. There's some things in this industry that just don't change: The power cord, the mouse, the keyboard, and the cases. Build those things to last guys. Really.
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But there was no beginning. Either there was a big bang, in which time did not exist "prior to" that event, time was created by the event... or the event we consider to be the big bang was the end of the contraction cycle of the universe and it's return to expansion... in which case, again, there was no beginning.
Both of those are excellent examples of something beginning. You're either discussing the beginning of time or the beginning of this cycle of the universe. It's almost impossible to come up with a better use of the noun "beginning."
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I'm actually glad people didn't stop with the old one button Macintosh mouse, or those first Microsoft two button pieces of crap, with the rubber ball that needed regular cleaning and a cord that was frequently in the way. The current optical mice, even in planned obsolescence form are lightyears better in my opinion.
I'd almost say the same with cases. The old metal shells case covers, with hard to access drive bays, no front panel access, and poor ventilation are also dinosaurs that I'm glad have become
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I do prefer to buy things that last, but really, the frequent upgrades that have been forced upon us in some ways have been a blessing.
If something is truly better, people will buy that instead, and the things that aren't as good will eventually go extinct. There's no need to force customers to upgrade, and in most cases this fails miserably with poor results for all involved. Remember when Microsoft tried to force people and corporations to upgrade to Vista from XP? It was such a horrible cluster-fuck that at one point they were offering free downgrades to XP with the purchase of a Vista license! They had to extend their support agreement
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The sharp edges on those dinosaur cases seemed to demand a blood sacrifice every time I worked inside one of those cases.
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I made my sacrifice last Friday on one of those lovely stamped steel EMI covers on the top of a laptop's motherboard, manufactured circa 2000. And it wasn't even unscrewed from the computer!
Still have a bit o duct tape on the left thumb to hold the gash closed. Amazing how clean and deep of a cut raw stamped steel can saw into your flesh!
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I'd thought about picking up one of those Stellars, but I despise L-shaped Enter keys and the design compromises associated: either shrink down the Backspace key or move the backslash/pipe key. Well, that and the fact that I'd need an adapter to make it USB.
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Those keyboards are overpriced shit. They bought the one thing that was worth anything off of the Northgate brand, doubled the price, and never invested in the brand after; No advertising, no redesign, they just bought it and murdered it. These days nobody even knows that good keyboards ever existed; they think the "jello touch" Microsoft split-keyboards are the best the industry has to offer. And now all the rage is "touch" displays because Apple's doing it. Well, good for them... but it's 30 year old tech
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Ugh, fucking missing </blockquote> tag
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Things that would kill today's keyboards dead, it simply brushed off as a non-event.
I wish things were built like that today, rather than this planned obsolesence bullsh*t.
My Leopold keyboard was pretty cheap (~$100), has hard PBT plastic key caps (which are a widely used standard design and replacable), the switches are guaranteed to last at least 50 million presses *for each key* and are mounted to a thick steel plate that feels stronger than the desk it sits on top of. The switches are also commonly available and can also be replaced with a bit of soldering, but i've never heard of them failing (monitor falling on them might do it). I dunno about cat piss but liquid genera
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Okay, now the big question.. (Score:2)
... how much has the price of NeXT non-ADB keyboards jumped on eBay since this was posted?
Nitpick: (Score:2)
The PS/2 connector predates NeXT computers by a year, according to Wikipedia.
Logitech Illuminated Keyboard (Score:2)
After much trial and error I discovered the Logitech Illuminated Keyboard [logitech.com]. It is the best keyboard ever made. Less fatigue, awesome key action, silent and it's backlit. It's not cheap, but you get what you pay for.
NeXT next keyboard bus vs ADB NeXT keyboard (Score:2)
PS2NeXT (Score:2)
The best keyboards these days (Score:2)
I am a keyboard snob. The keyboard is the part of the computer with which I interact the most, so I hate the mushy feel of membrane keyboards that are based on the same technology as VCR remotes.
If you want to be a keyboard snob too (in a good way), then start by going to wasdkeyboards.com and buying their sampler kit ("http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/sampler-kit-1.html"). For $8, you get eleven keycaps in different colors, four Cherry MX switches (blue, brown, black, red), and fifteen dampe
New clicky keyboard for Mac (Score:1)
For quite a while I've been using the Matias Tactile Pro 3 (or thereabouts) keyboard. It has a Mac layout (similar to the older Apple keyboards) and uses microswitches for a clicky good time. And it's quite a bit more compact than the IBM PS/2 keyboard although it boasts more keys (including, of course, the Command and Option keys etc.). It's not the cheapest keyboard in town but if you like clicky and use Macs than it's probably the way to go.
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Honestly I feel it's not a waste. A lot of the older keyboards in the 80's were made to be a hell of a lot more durable then the flimsy plastic crap you buy now. I fondly remember my *old* IBM keyboard from the mid 80's that was very heavy but man oh man did it sound beautiful with the clicking noises it made and it felt great to type with it.
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Who cares if modern stuff is not durable. I can buy 10 modern keyboards for the price of one of these dinosaurs.
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If you like cheap keyboards just fine, then by all means, do that. Some prefer the older ones, and that's ok too.
It certainly doesn't hurt anyone to make those options available and it's not like they claim to have cured cancer... it's just a project.
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If you like cheap keyboards just fine, then by all means, do that. Some prefer the older ones, and that's ok too.
I tend to live at my PC and over the years it just became so tedious keeping a good keyboard clean and working well. Now I just get whatever is cheapest at Walmart, maybe once or twice a year. Not the most Earth friendly option I know but I really, really hate grimy keyboards.
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Re:waste (Score:4, Interesting)
If you like cheap keyboards just fine, then by all means, do that. Some prefer the older ones, and that's ok too.
I tend to live at my PC and over the years it just became so tedious keeping a good keyboard clean and working well. Now I just get whatever is cheapest
A quality keyboard (quality anything IMHO) can be dismantled with real screws, cleaned and re-assembled and ends up like new. I use a 20 year old IBM AT keyboard that I clean about once every 2-3 years (I don't eat over it either). It is superb to use and worth the hour spent. Most modern keyboards are utter rubbish, and I have thrown quite a few away (like you get with new PCs) after trying a few keystrokes. What a waste of resources. It is like the difference between riding a quality bike and a riding cheap Chinese-made commuter hack, no matter how new and clean that hack is. If you are happy with the hack then I am happy for you.
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That's only true if by cleaning your keyboard, you're giving up an opportunity to work at $80/hour.
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Wow.. You need to replace your keyboard once or twice a year? What pieces of crap! (I sure hope you at least put the old ones in electronics recycling.)
I'm typing this on a Mac Pro on an "Apple Keyboard" (the one that came with the Mac SE, with the control key in the right place), with an ADBUSB converter. (And no, the "Happy Hacker" keyboard is similar, but not as good, and of course, I already have this keyboard.)
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Not going to modify my NeXT keyboards... they are still connected to their lovely black hardware.
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Windows 8 will cure you of that!
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It's a pain in the ass, but it has good bones. I'm sure Windows 9 will address the multiple personality disorder somewhat. I'm hoping that Windows tablets don't fall flat in the marketplace so that we have some competition, but I have to admit that they aren't that compelling so it might all just go away.
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"Version N of windows sucks, but I'm sure version N+1 will fix all those issues!" has been the Windows mantra since version 3.11. I doubt very much that 9 will be that much better, simply because it will introduce it's own issues as it tries to fix the issues in 8.
That being said, there were some versions of Windows that weren't complete trash, 98se, XP, and 7 being the ones that come to mind. However even those versions had many issues that made working with them a pain. I think Windows will always be the
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I miss the space where the damn windows key is now. as well as the click clack of a good old keyboard...
Re:waste (Score:4)
You, Sir, have the "consumer" mentality. Wasteful frivolity is the order of the day. Corporate chiefs and demons dance in glee, to see that you are so thoroughly indoctrinated. Go, Sir, and buy a dozen more useless trashy pieces of shit, so that corporate profits may increase.
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Re:waste (Score:5, Interesting)
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I can add that I found the ABS Model M1 keyboard to be a great alternative to the very expensive boards (lists for $69.99, but I picked mine up on clearance for $40 a few years ago). I don't need any of the added "modern" functionality of media keys or backlight, but I did want a keyboard that had a solid, "springy" resistance, and a definite clicking sound when I used it. I just ca
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Honestly I feel it's not a waste. A lot of the older keyboards in the 80's were made to be a hell of a lot more durable then the flimsy plastic crap you buy now. I fondly remember my *old* IBM keyboard from the mid 80's that was very heavy but man oh man did it sound beautiful with the clicking noises it made and it felt great to type with it.
Remember? This post is being typed on one. This M just keeps going with the odd cleaning of parts in the dishwasher to make it look new again.
I think you are dead on with the plastic crap keyboards - the ones at the office simply aren;t as good. A pity all those great PC, XT and PS2 era keyboards ended up in the bin. The M2 is a great keyboard as well - but not as heavy so it is good on a desk.
This is a cool project for that reason. I think an arduino conversion of a M to USB would be great as I found t
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I'm typing this on another M (mine was made on 9/25/91). I remember seeing a Model M for sale awhile ago on Ebay that had built-in USB. The last owner replaced the plug and whoever it was did a really good job on it--the plug was a bit longer than most but aside from that it looked like it was originally built that way.
That sounds like a great mod, great score!!! My M is only about a year older and looking at the connector I see what you mean - a usb port would fit in there nicely.
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Me too.
You can get brand new ones from pckeyboard.com
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Not all IBM stuff was made as solidly (Score:2)
Re:waste (Score:5, Insightful)
congratulations on devoting your time & money on doing something useless, thanks for sharing!
They're using a keyboard they like, where previously they could not. And in the abstract, they found a problem and solved it... which is reason enough for a hobby project.
Now go away, troll.
Re:waste (Score:5, Insightful)
Like John Lennon once said, time you enjoy wasting isn't wasted.
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I thought all of his philosophy was discredited when they tore down the wall and started pulling down his statues?
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John Lennon != Vladimir Lenin
or John Lennon != Jimmy Saville, but he was a POS anyway.